Hi all,

Just a quickie...(mind you, I always say that). I've been looking around the most efficient (and cheapest) way to gather some audio/sound effects from the outside/inside world.
This will mainly be in the form of sound effects (capturing those I haven't already got on my drives). I initially attempted (then aborted) to try and capture to an iPod, but this seemingly requires an add on unit and s/w embellishment (I have the latest classic and cannot for the life of me find a record audio option)...

So, I remembered I had a portable minidisc player/recorder knocking about and thought that (without any expenditure) would be a fine option. I thought the pre-amp with the player (Sony MZ-R91) would be enough to fire up the Sennhieser MK416, but unfortunately it isn't (this would be my preferred mic). I guess I'll need a battery powered pre-amp for this purpose...which isn't an option, at this moment at least. This leaves me with the dynamic SM58 - good for close up sounds (isolated, and in a quiet area at least) but not so good for 'street ambience' and 'covert' pick ups (conversations in cafe/bars etc). Of course if I were filming then the Sennhieser would be the one I would use, but I sometimes need to fit this stuff in pockets/backpack when out and about.
I've set the minidisc to 'mono' (stereo just giving me the one channel from the mono mics) but I'm missing that clarity and distance the M416 achieves. Might there be smallish (pocket sized!) pre amps available?
The resulting audio will be fed into Logic/FCP for various projects.

Many thanks.

If the MD has a mic. input, you won't necessarily need a pre-amp.

All you will need is a 48V battery powered phantom power unit - and a special XLR to mini-jack lead from that to the MD - this cable should have a blocking capacitor in the XLR to prevent the plug-in power from the MD getting to the PSU or mic.

If the MD has a mic. input, you won't necessarily need a pre-amp.

All you will need is a 48V battery powered phantom power unit - and a special XLR to mini-jack lead from that to the MD - this cable should have a blocking capacitor in the XLR to prevent the plug-in power from the MD getting to the PSU or mic.

Yes - it does have a mic input (and a separate line input). So essentially, instead of feeding the Sennhieser into a 'jack to mini jack' adaptor I could use a XLR (male/female) into the plug in power XLR insert (should a model have one) then from here use a small XLR to mini jack cable to enter the mini-disc. Perfect (getting Audio out from the mini disc into Logic/FCP is another matter entirely!).
Are these units fairly cheap, small and battery powered? I'll have a quick search but I'm none to sure how to describe them...'portable phantom power units'?!

Many thanks.

As it happens those search terms seems sufficient:

BEHRINGER PS 400 - PORTABLE PHANTOM POWER SUPPLY- EACH (http://www.htfr.com/more-info/MR216668)

Not sure where a battery would fit in that mind?!!

Actually (and this might be a daft question) what is the K6 capsule (powered by an internal 1.5v) battery for if not for phantom powering the ME66? Does it not quite power it enough?
When I use this mic on the JVC HD100 cam, I have it set as MIC input and not +48v which the on board mic needs to be on. Slight confusion...

The ME66 is a very hot mic and will work great with your minidisc. In fact you might even need a pad with it if the subject is really loud.

^^ It should be Marco, but truth be told I'm struggling to find an affordable (cheap as possible at the moment to be fair) battery powered phantom power unit. I had a look at the Beyer MSB48, but this looks to be discontinued. Google isn't really my friend on this one I'm afraid. There are many cheap options for phantom power: the Behringer Micropower PS400 would be ideal (less than £20 too) should it have the options of taking batteries too (it doesn't).

This:

ART Phantom II | Dolphin Music (http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/shop/flypage/product_id/3507)

but with the one mic input/output only would suffice (and bring the cost down a little).

This is an industry standard:

Denecke | PS-2 - Portable Dual 48V Phantom Power Supply | PS-2 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/406897-REG/Denecke_PS_2_PS_2_Portable_Dual.html)

I'm a bit skeptical of ART personally, as I associate them with consumer grade gear. Perhaps that's unfair. I haven't used any of their products, so if someone knows better by all means speak up.

Also, as you posted, the K6p module is indeed phantom power for your ME66. That's what the P stands for.

This is an industry standard:

Denecke | PS-2 - Portable Dual 48V Phantom Power Supply | PS-2 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/406897-REG/Denecke_PS_2_PS_2_Portable_Dual.html)

I'm a bit skeptical of ART personally, as I associate them with consumer grade gear. Perhaps that's unfair. I haven't used any of their products, so if someone knows better by all means speak up.

Also, as you posted, the K6p module is indeed phantom power for your ME66. That's what the P stands for.

That looks good Marco, but a little out my price range at the moment (so yes - working with bits of consumer gear!)...although saying that, it's in dollars and perhaps I can pick up a 2nd hand one in the UK.

I'm just not getting any signal from the Sennhieser ME66 despite it having the phantom power - was wondering if this only gave a limited phantom power to the minidisc recorder and therefore would still require a boost? The Shure SM58 works fine, but it's suitable for some of the 'stuff' I'll be doing.
Cheers Marco.

Marco - the Denecke PS2 which runs at $129 is being sold in the uk (and on ebay) for nearly £200. Way out of my price bracket at the moment. If I went down that route (and I may do) I'd think about another solution for recording audio (either mini DAT or perhaps flash drive...eye's a little off the ball in that respect).

Does your K6 module take a battery? I had it backwards there. The K6p doesn't have a battery and needs phantom power. The K6 has a battery and supplies its own phantom. Make sure it's switched on. The LED should glow bright red briefly if the battery is good. With the K6 module the ME66 should run much, much hotter than the SM58. Also make sure that your XLR adapter has a voltage blocking capacitor as many, maybe all, minidisc recorders have plug-in power.

Does your K6 module take a battery? I had it backwards there. The K6p doesn't have a battery and needs phantom power. The K6 has a battery and supplies its own phantom. Make sure it's switched on. The LED should glow bright red briefly if the battery is good. With the K6 module the ME66 should run much, much hotter than the SM58. Also make sure that your XLR adapter has a voltage blocking capacitor as many, maybe all, minidisc recorders have plug-in power.

Yes - it is the one with the battery (I soon know when it's fed into the camera and I'm getting no audio...spare pack of AA's are always in the bag!).
I've put a brand new battery in today and the red light does indeed briefly glow.
I'm not sure I follow you with regard to the XLR adaptoer: I'm running a XLR from the ME66 which has a jack on the end (this particualar cable isn't XLR male to female) which in turn is fed into a jack to mini jack adaptor the into the mic input of the minidisc (battery has died in the machine, currently running on mains).
So should I be getting audio (and strong at that) off the Sennhieser from this set up?
I'm bewildered! I can only assume I need that extra power boost from a power unit, or something in the cabling/adaptor is dropping the audio somehow...?

Cheers.

Can you describe the cable better? On one end you have XLR female (which plugs into the mic). What's on the other end?

Can you describe the cable better? On one end you have XLR female (which plugs into the mic). What's on the other end?

Yes - the other end is the Jack (my camera and mixing desk both have male XLR connections so I don't usually this type of cable). This jack end then goes into the mini jack and then the Mini Disc itself. The Shure SM58 is using the same cable (the mini jack adaptor is pretty awful by the way - I need to pick up a decent one tomorrow - any slight movement and you get an awful amount of noise - it's a cheap plastic thing which needs throwing).

Sorry, but you have to do better than that. "Jack" can mean a lot of things. Is it 1/4" TRS maybe? You want the fewest number of adapters possible. I really recommend getting a regular XLR cable. From there you want a quality XLR adapter that has a transformer and keeps the signal balanced, such as this one -

Shure - A96F Camcorder Interface (http://store.shure.com/store/shure/en_US/DisplayProductDetailsPage/productID.104215400)

Or you can get an adapter with faders (recommended), such as those made by SignVideo and Beachtek.

Sorry, but you have to do better than that. "Jack" can mean a lot of things. Is it 1/4" TRS maybe? You want the fewest number of adapters possible. I really recommend getting a regular XLR cable. From there you want a quality XLR adapter that has a transformer and keeps the signal balanced, such as this one -

Shure - A96F Camcorder Interface (http://store.shure.com/store/shure/en_US/DisplayProductDetailsPage/productID.104215400)

Or you can get an adapter with faders (recommended), such as those made by SignVideo and Beachtek.

It is indeed a mono 1/4" TRS (didn't realise there were other 'Jacks' out there).
This then enters the only adapter which is the 1/4" TRS into the 3.5mm or 1/8" TRS (mini jack as I 'used' to refer to them as :)
I have a few XLR cables, so I'll look into the XLR adapters (although not at that price just yet) - I don't want to spend out unless I'm sure this will give me the signal/audio I'm clearly lacking at the moment (even if I tap the Sennhieser I'm not getting a thing). The mics are the only variables in this set up...it's quite frustrating.

All right, now I'm getting it. Is your adapter designed for headphones, by any chance? I've had unpredictable results going from mono to stereo with those. I'm assuming that you are only getting audio in one channel then? Assuming your mic is working properly (and it sounds like it is), I have to think it's something wiggy going on with your cable, adapter setup that the minidisc doesn't like in combination with the ME66. Maybe because of the plug in power from the minidisc? Odd that the Dynamic mic works. I'm betting a different cable/adapter will solve it. I've used the ME66 with the Shure adapter I linked to and minidisc many, many times and it has worked great. In addition to keeping the signal balanced, the adapter blocks DC voltage from the mic input and routes the signal to both sides. It's a great widget to keep around, and has saved me a couple of times when my other XLR adapter was getting interference.

All right, now I'm getting it. Is your adapter designed for headphones, by any chance? I've had unpredictable results going from mono to stereo with those. I'm assuming that you are only getting audio in one channel then? Assuming your mic is working properly (and it sounds like it is), I have to think it's something wiggy going on with your cable, adapter setup that the minidisc doesn't like in combination with the ME66. Maybe because of the plug in power from the minidisc? Odd that the Dynamic mic works. I'm betting a different cable/adapter will solve it. I've used the ME66 with the Shure adapter I linked to and minidisc many, many times and it has worked great. In addition to keeping the signal balanced, the adapter blocks DC voltage from the mic input and routes the signal to both sides. It's a great widget to keep around, and has saved me a couple of times when my other XLR adapter was getting interference.

I purchased these cheap adapters as 'jack to mini jack' adapters many years ago - not specifically for headphones, more a generic object. I've used them in the past when filming (when I started out using a small camcorder and the Shure SM58 for vocals). Any slight nudge and you'd get the 'burst of noise' so I usually strapped this down to the camera with gaffer tape - worked ok at the time, but nothing like the results I'm getting with the ME66 and the camera with the XLR connections.

The Shure, in this combination, works with stereo (one channel only) and mono, but neither mono or stereo has any bearing on the ME66.
I might pop into a sound equipment store and see if they have better leads/adapters. If it is indeed just a case of picking up a better lead/adapter then that will save me going down the portable phantom power route (although that ART, although you're not too keen on these yourself, at under £40 is a possibility).

I've attached a couple of pics in the set up if you have time to take a quick look - it might make more sense than me 'beating around the bush'!

Appreciate your help.

Cheers.

I think clearly the adapter setup you are using is way too much of a liability, and should be replaced regardless. Going from male mono to a stereo input has given me problems before such as what you are experiencing. It's just not designed to do what you are trying to do. I can't stress enough the importance of getting a quality XLR adapter. There's also no guarantee (or even reason to believe) that using phantom instead of the onboard power of the ME66 will improve things.

I'll agree with Marco. Proper XLR to mini adapters are available, a little pricey to buy ready made but you're going to get the right thing. See Remote Audio: DV Cam Cables (http://www.remoteaudio.com/cables_adapters/dvcam/) for examples

Thanks folks. I wouldn't mind spending a little on this type of pro cable if I knew that would work (it's a small bonus that I don't have to splash out on a Audio recorder, by using this old, long since used Mini Disc).
If I can find a local shop that stocks these then I'll take the mic and minidisc player in and test it whilst there. Slightly baffled that the Shure works fine (although the connection with that adapter is the wrong side of awful) and the ME66 (with power on) doesn't.

Cheers.

Definitely see if there is a store that specializes in location audio. Around here, stores that service the installation audio industry and musicians don't have a clue about this type of stuff. Maybe it's different there. Remember, the adapter must block DC voltage. Don't settle for anything less or you will continue to have problems.

I have used a sony mini disc and stereo mic for sound FX collection for over 15 years.

I have two sony minidisc recorders and a sony M/S mic like this Sony ECMMS957 Digital Microphone - variable angle: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-ECMMS957-Digital-Microphone-variable/dp/B00005QBUV/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1233251103&sr=8-2)

I now have a sony D50 but use the same mic, all of the sound fx for five years I did on The Bill and other main dramas such as Heartbeat were all recorded this way.

Gary, does that mic draw power from the mic input, or does it take a battery?

Gary, does that mic draw power from the mic input, or does it take a battery?

Thanks folks.
Gary - I'm impressed you serviced such shows from that set up (was the lead a 'all in one' 1/4" XLR to 1/8" TRS or was there an adapter there somewhere?). I'm itching to get started now (I have a plethora of SFX on my hard drives but there's nothing like creating your own is there?). It must be the lead (or more likely the cr*ppy adapter) - I remembered I tried to put this same mic through into an Audio Channel in Logic Pro via my iMac - nothing at all (power on the mic was on etc). The Shure SM58 worked fine.
I recently carried out some voice over but this time putting the ME66 through a mixing desk (which has phantom powered channels...not required as the mic's own did this) which worked a treat. So perhaps it's the cheap cable or plastic (50p?!) adapter which is foxing somehow cancelling out the phantom powered ME66?!?
Hopefully I'll have time tomorrow to visit an Audio shop in the vicinity.
Cheers.

[EDIT] actually Gary I can see from the pic that the 1/8" trs/mini jack is part of the cable.

Gary, does that mic draw power from the mic input, or does it take a battery?

It has a AA battery on-board, its an M/S mic with three capsules one forward or side facing (you can move them inside the mic) and two as a figure of eight. The M/S process is done inside the mic and it outputs A/B via a five pin XLR to a small jack that will go straight into the mini disc or D50.

You can also vary the width of the stereo image via a switch and the M/S matrix is the best for recording as it will have good mono compatibility.
I have always used AMS Neve Logic and DFC digital consoles and they have a set of controls that allow you to adjust the width of a stereo signal or make it mono.

Recording sound FX to mini disc for The Bill and other dramas including Touch of Frost etc has been very good with this set-up and it is nice and portable.
I also always carry a mini disc and a smaller sony M/S mic just in case I wish to grab something whilst out and about.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00005QBUW/ref=s9_k2a_c4_t6?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1R2K6QWZ5G4VW401KG97&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=463374933&pf_rd_i=468294
I stopped doing The Bill four years ago but the sound FX are still in the library and are still used by John York and Richard Churchill.

It has a AA battery on-board, its an M/S mic with three capsules one forward or side facing (you can move them inside the mic) and two as a figure of eight. The M/S process is done inside the mic and it outputs A/B via a five pin XLR to a small jack that will go straight into the mini disc or D50.

You can also vary the width of the stereo image via a switch and the M/S matrix is the best for recording as it will have good mono compatibility.
I have always used AMS Neve Logic and DFC digital consoles and they have a set of controls that allow you to adjust the width of a stereo signal or make it mono.

Recording sound FX to mini disc for The Bill and other dramas including Touch of Frost etc has been very good with this set-up and it is nice and portable.
I also always carry a mini disc and a smaller sony M/S mic just in case I wish to grab something whilst out and about.
Sony Microphone: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00005QBUW/ref=s9_k2a_c4_t6?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1R2K6QWZ5G4VW401KG97&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=463374933&pf_rd_i=468294)
I stopped doing The Bill four years ago but the sound FX are still in the library and are still used by John York and Richard Churchill.

Is that smaller sony mic good for picking up ambience rather than/as well as close up Gary? Be good to have something like that in my pocket/'manbag' rather than lugging the ME66 around - and is that one battery powered ( I couldn't see anywhere to suggest it is)?

Anyway - I haven't the time to pop in to the Audio/Sound shop today, but hopefully I can be there tomorrow. I will let you know if I find a solution. On a positive note, i ordered a battery just the other day (2.99) and it has this morning turned up...so at least the Mini Disc is now mobile (the previous battery had ceased up completely)!

Cheers.

Smaller mic also has an AA battery and is good for ambience and close up stuff, less range than the larger one but still good for general FX and recording. It is also M/S and has the 90 or 120 deg settings.

Smaller mic also has an AA battery and is good for ambience and close up stuff, less range than the larger one but still good for general FX and recording. It is also M/S and has the 90 or 120 deg settings.

Thanks Gary - something I might very soon add to my arsenal (isn't that a Morrissey album?!) and I might look into the slightly larger one too (although with having the ME66 perhaps that's a little overkill.

Just a thought...would length of XLR cable have any bearing on the power to the minidisc 'dissipating' before it reaches it? I only ask as the cable I'm using (using the Shure SM58 at the moment for a few test runs before I sort out the ME66 problem) is a good five metres in length (which is inappropriate for most scenarios I guess?).

The length of the cable will affect the signal. Let's see, five meters. The handy Internet converter tells me that's 16.4 feet. Shouldn't be a problem, especially with the hotter ME66. The dynamic mic should be good as well. I've always understood that a mic level signal can travel at least 25 feet before you notice any drop off. I don't know where the point is where it starts to degrade. One thing I would worry about, especially with the dynamic mic, is if you have an unbalanced connection. A low level signal like that will be prone to interference. That's why you want an adapter with a transformer balanced connection.

Also, as long as you have the K6 module, I'd recommend looking at some of the other capsules for your sound collection before I'd invest in another mic like the Sony. They make cardiod, omni, lav, and hypercardiod caps. Unless of course you want stereo. The Sony would be good for that. Just a thought.

The length of the cable will affect the signal. Let's see, five meters. The handy Internet converter tells me that's 16.4 feet. Shouldn't be a problem, especially with the hotter ME66. The dynamic mic should be good as well. I've always understood that a mic level signal can travel at least 25 feet before you notice any drop off. I don't know where the point is where it starts to degrade. One thing I would worry about, especially with the dynamic mic, is if you have an unbalanced connection. A low level signal like that will be prone to interference. That's why you want an adapter with a transformer balanced connection.

Also, as long as you have the K6 module, I'd recommend looking at some of the other capsules for your sound collection before I'd invest in another mic like the Sony. They make cardiod, omni, lav, and hypercardiod caps. Unless of course you want stereo. The Sony would be good for that. Just a thought.

Ok - it's not the cable length then. I'll know once I test a few cables/adapters out hopefully this weekend. Not even thought of purchasing over capsules - fine idea! Do they not make stereo capsules for the K6 then? I'll look into the types of capsules available for the K6. Cheers Marco.

Nope. Stereo wouldn't be possible with a single K6 unit, as it is just a single mic.

Update:

Finally managed to pick up a new cable yesterday. I took the ME66 into the Sound Shop and tested out a cable - works a treat. I asked why the other cable (which I took in) works with the Shure SM58 but not the ME66 (both the same - XLR to 1/4 TRS)...the guy serving me (which to be fair may have been from a different department - it was a musical instrument shop) couldn't find a reason why the previous cable didn't work?!?

Anyhow...I now have sound coming into my Mini Disc and it didn't cost me the earth to get it sorted. I couldn't find any quality XLR to 1/8" trs/mini jack adaptors so purchased the XLR to 1/4" TRS and a cheap adapter (steel as opposed to the plastic ones...looks more durable if anything).
What I have noticed is that I have to push the record volume WAY down because the ME66 lifts the tiniest whisper up to jet engine levels (quite substantial distortion). The level display on the Sony Mini Disc isn't great to be honest...but I've now got this very acceptable field recording device for next to nothing (cost of new cable).
The other concern is that any slight touches of the mic or the Mini Disc itself causes a few loud bursts of noise...dodgy connections on the MD itself I guess. Once in record, there's no way I can disrupt/touch any part of the set up.
The adapter with a fader would be nice also, as would a substantially smaller mic (the aforementioned sony's).

So - huge thanks for the advice...I'm now hoping (attempting to) that it will be straightforward to place the audio onto my hard drive (via Logic for example) - no digi outs on this model so I'm guessing it's a case of: the correct lead (single 1/8" to 1/8" trs/jack) into the back of the mac via 'audio' record (as I'd do with live audio)...

Glad to see that you're getting closer. As for the noise when you bump the cables, I'm still inclined to believe it's the adapter setup, rather than the input jack on the minidisc. Old style MDs can be transfered digitally to a computer using a HiMD unit, but tragically, Mac is no longer supported. Best option is probably to go through the AD conversion as you describe. I'd use a stereo mini plug cable to connect to your mac.

Glad to see that you're getting closer. As for the noise when you bump the cables, I'm still inclined to believe it's the adapter setup, rather than the input jack on the minidisc. Old style MDs can be transfered digitally to a computer using a HiMD unit, but tragically, Mac is no longer supported. Best option is probably to go through the AD conversion as you describe. I'd use a stereo mini plug cable to connect to your mac.

Shame about the HiMD situation (for my part I'd never heard of this connection). I'll pick up a (mini) Jack to Jack cable sometime this week (I have a multitude of cables which enter the single jack point on the mac (iMac by the way) but no single (stereo) cable.
You're probably spot on with the adapter - and I might go down that route should I have a spare bit of pocket change...otherwise I get flash/HD recorders might be an option for field recording (I'd have to tie that in with the vid camera so I might look at other options some time in the future).

Thanks Marco.