Guys,

I'm thinking about offering HD delivery this year as an upgrade on my standard wedding packages, but instead of Blu-Ray, I'm thinking about including either an Apple iTV or one of those Western Digital HD media players - basically give my customer the hardware as part of the package.

Anyone doing this or thinking about doing this? I already am shooting everything in HD, so the only real cost is the player, and those two are fairly comparable. I know the Apple TV doesn't do 1080i, but it does have the wireless connection and seems like it might be a more flexible way to go.

Any thoughts?

I am going to offer an Apple TV for HD delivery, though I am just heading out on my own after working freelance for a while, so my experience on the business and booking end of things is limiting. So I have the same train of thought.

Call me crazy, but I think it's a nice way of adding value to your service. Granted, you want clients to pay because they value your work, but I believe there is appeal to combining the feeling you get when you fire up a brand new home theatre component, and the feeling of watching your HD wedding video for the first time.

The only thing I would stay away from is including the cheapy hardware. I would either go for the attractive, trendy and brand name Apple TV or nothing at all.

I thought I was a HDTV fanatic but I have never heard of either of those delivery methods before.

Last year, I gave away HD-DVD players to some of my clients who I knew had interest in HD. So I agree with helping HD adoption along. I think I would stick with Blu-Ray though, unless the client has a certain request.

This year I am just putting the projects on Blu-Ray if the client requests it. It's easy and little to no additional cost. You are right, everything is shot in HD, so it's already a widescreen project setup, just an additional render to HD. You can get cases of the blue Blu-Ray DVD cases for about a $1.50 each case cost.

I would stick with Blu-Ray for now. Im sure next year it will be something different, probably SDXC.

I picked up 5 weddings in the last two sundays doing wedding fairs and offering blu-ray as part of the standard package. To offr WDMP or a popcorn hour etc is not the way to go. Offer blu-ray dvd. Many people have PS3's and even if they don't have a way to play a blu-ray disk, they like the idea of having thir wedding in HD to future proof it. This ploy made me 5 weddings. There were two other videographers at both fairs and they did nothing on the day. And neither of them did blu-ray.

Get ahead of your rivals by staying up to date with HD, but don't make it hard for yourself by offering hardware.

Get ahead of your rivals by staying up to date with HD, but don't make it hard for yourself by offering hardware.

I'm no wedding videographer, but to me this sounds like marketing...

Why not give them the choice?

Wedding on Blu-Ray disk or for those without current Blu-Ray capability, wedding on WD Media player for $100 which allows you to connect it to any TV in the house and play.

You could even tell them they could hook the thing to their own recorder later when the technology gets cheaper, and make their own Blu-Ray.

Frankly, if I had a wedding business, I'd be offering both. That WD thing is CHEAP and easy. I am probably going to get one for the heck of it.

Part of what's behind my thinking on this is that I don't think Blu-Ray is going to last. With a wireless HD player and online HD movie downloads, why get a disc player? Plus it makes my investment in HD delivery almost zero - no burner, no new software - I already have what I need to make files for both units.

I realize Blu-Ray is somewhat of a standard right now, but I'm just wondering if it's really worth the investment when there's an easier delivery path already available for less than the cost of a Blu-Ray player.

I like the Apple TV idea. It's probably a little easier for someone to justify that, since it'll continue to be useful to them as more than just a player for their wedding video files.

Part of what's behind my thinking on this is that I don't think Blu-Ray is going to last. With a wireless HD player and online HD movie downloads, why get a disc player? Plus it makes my investment in HD delivery almost zero - no burner, no new software - I already have what I need to make files for both units.


What do you mean "last"? Like VHS? Like DVD? Like cassette tapes? Online movie downloads are CRAP compared to Blu-Ray. Blu-Ray video is compressed at 40 Mbps, online at how many Kbps? It's not even in the same league.


I realize Blu-Ray is somewhat of a standard right now, but I'm just wondering if it's really worth the investment when there's an easier delivery path already available for less than the cost of a Blu-Ray player.


Somewhat of a standard? You do realize that every major Hollywood studio has invested GOBS of money into this transition. People want to OWN movies. They want to take them off the shelf, and put them in. Or people want to RENT movies. They want the tangible. If we consider that the average high quality Blu-Ray movie takes up about 30GB with mp4, how long do you think it would take to download something of similar quality over the average person's internet connection? And I mean DSL or cable modem.



I like the Apple TV idea. It's probably a little easier for someone to justify that, since it'll continue to be useful to them as more than just a player for their wedding video files.

Great, if you want AppleTV.

Let's look at the family movie scenario: Dick and Jane get home from school on a Friday afternoon. Text their mom that they want a movie and pizza. Mom says ok, and informs dad he needs to buy a pizza on the way home from work. Mom get's home, asks the kids what they decided they want to see. They say they want to see movie XXX. So mom selects movie XXX from the download center. Dad shows up with the pizza 10 minutes later. So now we have 4 people, with pizza, and a 40" plasma waiting on a movie. How long do you think they are willing to wait for their HD movie experience to start before the kids get bored, and dad get's mad? And if the experience is "instant start", what is the quality going to be on that 40" plasma? It certainly won't be as good as an upresed DVD. And we know what standard DVDs look like on nice HDTVs...

Nope, families want to pull a movie off the shelf, or stop at the video store on the way home, and have an instant experience. That's why netflix, blockbuster, redbox, etc. are all doing business the way they do.

Perrone -- you have some good points, and that's why I started the discussion. I'm trying to decide which way to go.

As a data point, I have had only one video customer ask me about HD, and they had an HD-DVD player which is basically now obsolete.

I'm shooting everything in HD, but have no delivery method as of right now that makes sense. I could offer Blu-Ray but I honestly do not know anyone that I can think of right now with a Blu-Ray player.

Also - if you think about blockbuster, Netflix, etc, there's still planning time involved. Netflix you have to plan out far in advance because they mail it to you. Blockbuster you have to physically go in the store and select what you want. If you have fast internet service, it makes a lot of sense to just download or stream it.

30GB is not as large a file size as it used to be. I could deliver their wedding video on a hard drive or already loaded on the Apple TV and it'd be ready to go.

I understand what you're talking about when you mention ownership, but how does ownership feel when your disc gets scratched, like half of the discs in my collection (kids...) We usually get two or three plays out of them and then they are toast. So we usually watch TV or pay-per-view, and I bet Apple TV would be cheaper than pay-per-view. And... you still have to wait for pay-per-view most of the time.

So I don't know. In my little world it seems to make sense. But maybe I'm crazy.

How many of us still buy music on CDs?

For those who offers Apple TV for HD delivery - It's an interesting idea, I didn't realize it was only $229 for the 40GB version. How does Apple TV integrate with PCs? Not every client is a mac freak...

Also for people who edits on a PC, is Apple TV is still a reasonable delivery method? Will it play HD videos rendered from PCs?

As a data point, I have had only one video customer ask me about HD, and they had an HD-DVD player which is basically now obsolete.


According to my info, you live in a town of about 1,000 people. Do you think your experience can be extrapolated to most of the US? How do you think the market for HD is in Chicago, Peoria, etc.


I'm shooting everything in HD, but have no delivery method as of right now that makes sense. I could offer Blu-Ray but I honestly do not know anyone that I can think of right now with a Blu-Ray player.


That's fine. I know dozens of people who own PS3s or other Blu-Ray players. And I'm in a small city in Florida. Three years from now, when the market for HDTV is well saturated, and most of the DVD players people own now are out of warranty and they've had to replace them, what do you think they'll be buying? I have yet to deliver an HD product. I am just beginning to master for HD. But everything I shoot now is 1080i or 1080p. Might as well future proof as best I can.


Also - if you think about blockbuster, Netflix, etc, there's still planning time involved. Netflix you have to plan out far in advance because they mail it to you. Blockbuster you have to physically go in the store and select what you want. If you have fast internet service, it makes a lot of sense to just download or stream it.


Takes me exactly 1 day to get my Netflix movies. I get a movie on Friday, watch on the weekend, ship Monday, get a new one Wednesday, watch, ship Thursday, get a new one Saturday. Blockbuster (or similar) is on the way home, or near home for most people. Takes very little effort to get movies that way.

I suggest you try downloading 30GB or even 10GB sometime. In the middle of the day. Tell me how long it takes. I'm sitting on multiple T1s at my office, and I still wouldn't try it with the expectation of doing it for streaming purposes. Look at the lag off Youtube or Vimeo. And those videos are 1/100 or smaller in size.


30GB is not as large a file size as it used to be. I could deliver their wedding video on a hard drive or already loaded on the Apple TV and it'd be ready to go.


Oh yea? Render a 30GB file and tell me how long it takes. 30GB is still a darn big file. 6 DVDs worth. Delivering the wedding video on a player is a solid idea. I support that. But many people are not the biggest fans of Apple. They do some cool things, but if you handed me my wedding on an Apple TV, I'd hand it back and ask for something different.


I understand what you're talking about when you mention ownership, but how does ownership feel when your disc gets scratched, like half of the discs in my collection (kids...) We usually get two or three plays out of them and then they are toast. So we usually watch TV or pay-per-view, and I bet Apple TV would be cheaper than pay-per-view. And... you still have to wait for pay-per-view most of the time.


You ever see people's faces when they turn in a lease car? That's how non-ownership feels. When DVDs that you own get scratched by the kids, do you get mad at the technology, or the kids? The idea of the play-a-few-times-and-discard discs were tried, but was an environmental marketing nightmare. Great idea, and speaks exactly to the problem you speak of, but it got slaughtered. Still, many people have movie (and CD, and Album, and photo) collections they are proud of. People like to own things that give them enjoyable emotional responses. Pay-Per-View is a great paradigm. Nothing to buy, easy to do.


How many of us still buy music on CDs?

I can't remember the last time I bought one or burned one.

Yang - there is Windows compatibility info on the Apple TV site.

Apple - Apple TV - Tech Specs (http://www.apple.com/appletv/specs.html)

I think it easily integrates with iTunes, which runs on both Windows and Mac. I know a lot of people already using iTunes to catalog their music.

I don't have one, but I think I might get one just to see how hard the work flow would be. I bet it would take a similar amount of time to make a file for the Apple TV as it would to render out the file needed for a Blu-Ray disc. The refurbished ones are another $30 less.

As a data point, I have had only one video customer ask me about HD, and they had an HD-DVD player which is basically now obsolete.

I'm shooting everything in HD, but have no delivery method as of right now that makes sense. I could offer Blu-Ray but I honestly do not know anyone that I can think of right now with a Blu-Ray player.

1. Sounds like you missed a sale because you can't provide HD-DVD. HD-DVD may be no longer produced, but it's certainly not obsolete.

2. It also sounds like you will miss a sale if anyone asks for Blu-Ray.

You need to have a flexible broad plan for your HD delivery rather than a limited hardware based plan. I have been delivering HD-DVD projects for years and Blu-Ray projects for about a year. They are both extremely easy and inexpensive to do after just a little practice and a $100 software investment.

I suggest you start burning the disc based options along with your hardware delivery idea. It's just not a big deal to burn the HD optical discs. Of course, longer projects would have to be Blu-Ray only as they won't fit on DL-DVDs at an acceptable HD quality.

I'm thinking about including either an Apple iTV or one of those Western Digital HD media players - basically give my customer the hardware as part of the package.

I think the idea is sound, but the Western Digital player has no internal hard drive. Makes your delivery option a bit more complicated, as the client has to bring you an external hard drive so you can copy their movie to it, or you have to give them a hard drive as well.

So obviously you guys have to give your clients a back up of the video files on DVDs as well? Surely you can't hand over your multi-thousands $ product over on an unreliable hard drive? Then are you really reducing the amount of work you're doing?

If you charge more for an Apple TV package, how do you up-sell it from your normal package as any client can purchase an Apple TV with ease... Do you then also become a tech support person if they can't figure out how to work the Apple TV?

I have been looking at that with the Western Digital device - not having a hard drive. My first thought was to deliver the wedding files on a thumb drive, although I haven't done a lot of research on that.

I have an awesome-looking thumb drive that I picked up one time shooting for Bacardi that is stainless steel, and came in a great-looking printed box. It's really a brick - not like some of the flimsy plastic ones.

I have not missed a sale yet because of HD. I've only had it mentioned to me in passing. They liked my work, and we decided to go ahead and deliver in widescreen SD. I'm just trying to get a plan together to be ready for it. Maybe it does make sense to have both options available, although it looks to me like Blu-Ray on a Mac isn't the most fun way to go.

There were two other videographers at both fairs and they did nothing on the day. And neither of them did blu-ray.

Get ahead of your rivals by staying up to date with HD, but don't make it hard for yourself by offering hardware.

Personally I would be more likely to feel at the moment, don't make it hard on yourself by offering HD.
You have filled 5 dates with weddings that you need to provide HD versions.
You will also need to render out to SD for extra copies needed.
I dont know but will this mean re-authoring as well as re-rendering the project?
Thats a lot of extra work if your trying to get through a backlog of weddings not to be charging anything extra for it simply to have gotten the job in the first place.

Ger, you have a good point here that with HD no matter what there are going to be SD copies going out as well.

I think I would price it as economically as possible, basically time plus hardware costs. Same as I price everything else. I'm no gouger.

I do feel right now that I could go through this year without making any changes to my delivery - shoot HD, deliver 16x9 SD, and not lose anything because of it. So by going with Blu-Ray, I have some equipment and setup costs I have to pay, but with this more file-based route, my setup is already taken care of, and it's just my time to export the HD file.

But I am starting to lean towards learning the process and setting up for both options, charging some type of fee either way for HD delivery, and letting the customer choose.

Personally I would be more likely to feel at the moment, don't make it hard on yourself by offering HD.
You have filled 5 dates with weddings that you need to provide HD versions.
You will also need to render out to SD for extra copies needed.
I dont know but will this mean re-authoring as well as re-rendering the project?
Thats a lot of extra work if your trying to get through a backlog of weddings not to be charging anything extra for it simply to have gotten the job in the first place.

OK I picked up another wedding yesterday afternoon. Why? Because I am offering Blu-ray as standard. They phoned up, said they spoke to me at the wedding fair on Sunday, said they liked what they saw and asked me to go through everything with them again. When I mentioned they get a blu-ray dvd as part of the package, they said this was important to them and that I was the only one to offer this included in the deal. They said only one other videographer in the area could provide them with a Blu-ray dvd of their wedding and did a lot of umming and arrring on the phone when they questioned it. Frankly, they said, if felt like the guy was bulls*itting to get the deal and they lost faith instantantly.


Using a WDMP is a no go IMO. It doesn't have it's own hard drive, meaning you have to provide the cumtomer with a WD passport drive or similar. What colour do they want? What size do they want? Why doesn't it work when I pug it in? Why does it look unsightly? I have just erased it. Put it back on please. ( after you have wiped it from your system)

If you are going this route perhaps a Popcorn Hour A-110 with built in hard drive would be better. But it means adding anouther £200 to the price of the wedding and at this time of credit crunch and recession, price is very important. Handing over a blu-ray dvd is fool proof. No erasing it by accident. It plays on a PS3, of which many of my customers seem to own, or have a ready made excuse to go out and buy one! ( great selling point to the guy)

We all now the demographic of our customers. 22-35, middle class, reasonably affluent, girl is OK to pretty and confident. These people own PS3's or are not adverse to buying one.

On to making the bloody thing. I find it not a problem, though I have a powerful quad core Mac Pro. I edit in HD, then bring it out in SD via compressor and the Cinema Craft Encoder MP. Fast and efficient.

For HD its a bit more faffing around. I renderd out in HD then brought it across my network to a PC and finished it off in Sony Architect and out to blu-ray. Now that Roxio Toast does an excellent Blu-ray dvd, I am buying an external LG BE06LU11 and will do it all on the Mac.

Timewise, doing it overnight is fine. I do a 10 pass VBR on the SD DVD and that takes about 6-8 hours. Yet to do a blu-ray of 90 minutes in Toast but it was very quick in short tests.

Hey Steve...I'm a huge fan and preacher of Cinema Craft..
Can you see a standalone software HD encoder coming in the near future?

I'd jump to Bluray in a heartbeat if there was a dedicated software encoder like CCE for HD...

Thanks Steve - I think I'm convinced to offer both options and see which one works better. Toast and an external burner doesn't sound like too bad of an investment. Can you make decent menus through Toast? I have an old license for it somewhere that I could upgrade, but I used it for audio projects, not video.

I think the answer of HD delivery is going to be different for everyone. I firmly believe it's bad business to just "give away" the technology. If you build the extra costs into your packages, then that's great, but if you're throwing it in as a freebie then I think that's probably a bad idea and just sets a bad precedent. Half the problem in our industry is we have newbies popping up all the time who give practically everything away, and it stunts the growth of the industry. It also conditions brides to think that many things aren't of high value, since so many of the upstarts are just giving those things away.

When I first started out, I mostly charged for what I provided. I made mistakes, though, like anyone else. One of the first of these was in travel. I didn't charge a penny for travel. I thought it was a great idea to get a leg up on my competition. The trouble is, when you start doing destination weddings and you aren't charging for travel, you're losing money. I might have booked more destination weddings than my competition, but I wasn't making as much as I needed to since I was spending so much money on travel. I would have been better off just booking local weddings and turning a better profit.

So whether or not you decide to offer an HD solution, I would encourage everyone to look at how you offer it carefully. Avoid the temptation to just give it away for free, because that only hurts your own business and the rest of the industry.

As for me, I switched to HD this past year, fully expecting to have some interest from couples. More than 6 months later and I haven't had a single couple interested in HD. In fact, roughly 50-75% of the couples I meet with don't even own an HDTV. That absolutely shocked me. So make sure you know your market when you're making this decision.

They phoned up, said they spoke to me at the wedding fair on Sunday, said they liked what they saw and asked me to go through everything with them again.

Steve, Are you sure these people would not have gone with you if you weren't offering HD?

Maybe your stuff wipes the floor with the competition regardless of HD.

Look, Im not anti HD and if i can id like to assist in the catalyst that gets this transition done and dusted but not if its going to cost me my time. They must be the ones to pay.

I've seen wedding photographers jumping out in front of each other with 'digital advantages' for the past few years.
Where are they now?
They are getting the same money for a job that one time was much less time consuming to do.
One time they simply had to drop off and pick up prints, then construct an album. Their expertise was getting it right on the day.
Now how many hours are they spending in Photoshop during the week just to keep the wolves from the door?

Same money, more work = destruction of a good industry.

Travis, we obviously share the same opinion on this.
I literally only read your post after posting mine.

I agree with your sentiments. My intention is to offer an upgrade to HD if the customer is interested in pursuing it. It'll be fairly priced, not gouging, but offers a route to HD if the customer would like to pursue it. It costs me considerably more to own an XH-A1, burner, software, and new computer than it did to own my old G4 and GL2, so that cost does eventually have to be picked up somewhere.

I run a tight ship to compete, and work hard on my weddings to be sure they are unique, but nothing is free. Good work today is no good if it doesn't support me tomorrow, and I think most customers understand that.

I don't give away Blu-ray, its part of my standard package. Whether a couple know what it is or not doesn't come into it.

I use it as a major selling point, and it works. I don't want to ever get into the situation of charging a premium for Blu-ray DVD. That's not how I work at all.

I never, ever discount. My starting prices are £995 up to £1695 for a two cameraman wedding. That's it. No extras at all. Because everything is included. No exra £50 for coming to the brides house before the ceremony. No extra £50 to stay on an hour extra. No extra for a slideshow. no extra for Blu-ray. And you know what? Couples prefer it any day of the week. So many of my competitors phaff and fart about with a flat price and a ton of addons, it confuses and befudles the couple so much it puts them off. I tell them the price, and they have me for the day. No hidden extras whatsoever. I am there from 2 hours before the wedding, until 2 hours after the first dance. 6 SD dvds and a blu-ray DVd in a special presentation case, all with full menues, chapters and artwork. £100 deposit and the balance 30 days before wedding day. Sign here!

I could charge an extra £150 for Blu-ray but in truth I don't want to. My prices are higher end than the opposition in the area yet I still do better than most of them put together.

Blow my own trumpet? I sure do, loud and clear. Sure there are cheaper guys out there than me but what I offer is experience, and a very high quality product, backed up by many satisfied couples.

This is how I sell it at fairs. A couple walk towards my stand. I never, ever stand back. As they approach they are greeted with a smile and a "good morning, are you looking for a videographer?". Answer will be one of the following. "Yes we are" ( the perfect answer) We are thinking about it ( good answer!) haven't really thought about it ( not so good but workable) Uncle Bob is filming it for us ( bad answer) or No we don''t want one (forget it)

If it is one of the more favourable answers, I give them the speel (as well as asking the brides mum if the bride and her are sisters, works every time!) as they watch the HD stream on the TV. Many remark about the superb looking images in front of them and I explain its blu-ray and that they get this as standard. I ask them if they have a HD ready TV ( most say yes) and if they have a way of playing blu-ray ( about 50% say yes) If they say no, then I tell them that when they upgrade their DVD player they will be able to watch their wedding in HD just like the sample they are watching. I also hint to the groom that here his his chance and a very good excuse to go out and buy that PS3 he has always wanted! It works.

I ask the couple if they have spoken to other videographers, and quite a few say they have, but none of my rivals offers Blu-ray as standard. The images on my sample sell it for me. I hardly have to do a thing than just ask them to view the footage for a few minutes. After explaining I am more expensive than my rivals but "you get what you pay for", I am asked if I am available on such and such a date ( hopefully I am) and I get the deposite.

Now I will say I am a confident salesman. I can sell my business quite well and have learned when to speak and when to button it when in conversation with prospective couples. I have found that if I can win the guy over early on in the conversation ( many don't want to be seen dead at a wedding fair) I will get the booking.

I sell Blu-ray like it is the holy grail. If they didn't know about it, or were not really familiar with it when they walked up, I am sure when they walk away it will be something they "must have" as they walk away. And that's how it should be used to get you business. IMO.

Sorry for the length of this.

What you are saying to these people that you have opened their eyes to HD is that this is how much it should cost.
Yet your prices are competitive with guys providing SD.

People should expect to have to pay more for it.
How much more is up to you.

HD is the new SD. I am roughly £200 more expensive than my rivals, who on their websites show one price but discoount hugely to get the booking.

A close friend of mine has been filming weddings since 1983. 6 years ago he averaged 40-45 weddings a year. In 2000 he filmed 60 weddings. Two years ago he shot 23 weddings. Last year he shot 14 and this year he has 5 confirmed bookings. He is shooting SD. He is panicking and doesn't know what has happened and can't fathom why his business has collapsed around him. He has lowered his prices to £695 for a full days shooting.

This year has been my best year so far. Since the New year I have taken a stack of bookings and I only have a few Saturdays left this summer. In the space of a few years I have gone from nothing to well over £30,000 gross. Not bad for an on the side little earner. If things continue as they are and the rcession doesn't kill us, in two years I should be up at the 50 weddings a year mark.

Am I underselling HD? I don't think so at all. Move with the times, charge what the market will bear, (offering HD as part of the package is a killer deal) never discount but sell yourself as the best. Have a great showreel in HD at fairs, and sell yourself as someone they must use at their wedding.

Steve, did you increase your package prices once you started including Blu-Ray in your packages?

strange i edited my last post and yet again spotted 2 more new ones after that.

But yea, i think i know where you are going with this Travis.
As long as people are made aware that this costs more, not the same.
And as long as videogs charge more, not the same.

If a videog who has been operating since the 80's is now losing business then he probably needs to re-evaluate his whole approach to the shoot on the day. These guys are very routined since the old tape based days and aren't very willing to shoot more than they need.
Thats what I would put that down to.

People should expect to have to pay more for it.
How much more is up to you.

This is where wedding videographers go wrong IMO. Couples see HD at my stand. They love it. Now, if I said I am £1000 for SD, and what you wll get is nowhere near as good as this, but if you pay me an extra £500 I will make it look like that, do you think they will pay it? Answer is simple. No they won't. Chances are they will feel they are being scammed.

I offer Blu-ray as standard. What the couple see is what they get. No hidden extras, no nothing. I am the most expensive in the area but that is not because of blu-ray, its because I give a great service.

Perhaps in London I could easily start at £1500+, but I am in rural Dorset and there isn't a massive population to tap into. I would rather have 30 weddings at £1000 a pop, then 5 weddings at £1500. Because that's all I would have on my books if I charged that.

So no, I am not a busy fool.

Steve, did you increase your package prices once you started including Blu-Ray in your packages?

Yes by £150. Two years ago I was £845, last year and this I am £995. Because of the credit crunch I have maintained 2008 prices for this year, as well for any future bookings I might take for 2010. That is until the autumn wedding fairs when my prices will no doubt rise to £1095.

That's good. My concern is for videographers who add new products and services and don't raise their prices to compensate. In the short term, they often gain an advantage over the competition. Over the long term, though, they generally devalue the industry and hurt their own business. If you're raising your prices then that's a good thing. It doesn't sound like you raised them by much, but every market is different.

EDIT: I just wanted to give my reasoning for presenting HD as an add-on. I get the idea of just including it in the package and how appealing that can be. However, I determined that adding HD into my packages should increase the value of those packages by a minimum of $500 to help me compensate for the additional time and equipment required. I wasn't convinced that my market was ready for HD, so I didn't necessarily want to raise my package prices and force couples to go with HD, because if my market is NOT ready for that then I could be shooting myself in the foot. If I've learned anything it's that just because you can "wow" a couple doesn't mean they'll sign on the dotted line.

Anyways, I made it an option so I could test the waters first. Now I'm glad I did because I've had ZERO interest in HD, and the current economy will probably only keep things that way for a bit. The unfortunate thing is that I had to invest in the equipment up front.

you dont have to offer both. and one be more expensive than the other.
Obviously the way you put that wouldnt sound right.

But if you are a little more expensive, as long as the couple are made aware that one particular element of why you are dearer is the extra time it takes to provide HD content.

That's good. My concern is for videographers who add new products and services and don't raise their prices to compensate. In the short term, they often gain an advantage over the competition. Over the long term, though, they generally devalue the industry and hurt their own business. If you're raising your prices then that's a good thing. It doesn't sound like you raised them by much, but every market is different.

As I just said, yes I did. I can't increase my prices every year by £100. The business would never support it. I went from middle of the road wedding videographer to the most expensive in the area as soon as I adopted blu-ray as standard. If I was still shooting and delivering in SD only, my prices would probably be in line with all the others, instead of being set apart in price.

Proof that I am doing it right came only a couple of weeks ago. Last July I shot a wedding 40 miles from here. Delivered in Blu-ray. The bride had a video party, with wine and pizza. 20 friends turned up and had a ball watching it.I have booked two of her friends, both of whom are getting married this year, and the reason was they loved what they saw and though the blu-ray was spectaular. ( they may have just loved my work but both mentioned blu-ray in booking me.)

Hey its all horses for courses and whatever works for you. Every videographer has their own way of doing things. I for one certainly don't think I am underselling myself. If you think your way is best, good for you! Every videographer has their own way of doing things. As long as I see good growth every single year, I know I must be doing something right.

EDIT: I just wanted to give my reasoning for presenting HD as an add-on. I get the idea of just including it in the package and how appealing that can be. However, I determined that adding HD into my packages should increase the value of those packages by a minimum of $500 to help me compensate for the additional time and equipment required. I wasn't convinced that my market was ready for HD, so I didn't necessarily want to raise my package prices and force couples to go with HD, because if my market is NOT ready for that then I could be shooting myself in the foot. If I've learned anything it's that just because you can "wow" a couple doesn't mean they'll sign on the dotted line.

Anyways, I made it an option so I could test the waters first. Now I'm glad I did because I've had ZERO interest in HD, and the current economy will probably only keep things that way for a bit. The unfortunate thing is that I had to invest in the equipment up front.


How I sell blu-ray to clients, even if they have no PS3/BD player. Coouple like what they see. i tell them all but blu-ray. they say they have no way of playing it. I say here's your chance to buy that PS3 you have hankered after.

But my selling pint is this. I sell the wedding film as an important peice fo family social history. I tell the couple that their childrens children, in the year 2075, will be able to see their great great great granny chatting away to the camera ( I do a lot of interviews) in crystal clear clarity. I say we never had the chance to view something like that but our childrens children will be able to. So isn't it worth leaving that record of your big day in the highest quality possible?

Lots of nods.

you dont have to offer both. and one be more expensive than the other.
Obviously the way you put that wouldnt sound right.

But if you are a little more expensive, as long as the couple are made aware that one particular element of why you are dearer is the extra time it takes to provide HD content.

They don't get the choice. If they really don't want the blu-ray, the price is still the same. But I would throw in few more SD DVDs as a form of compensation.

Steve, I get the feeling you think I'm arguing with you. I'm not. In fact, I congratulated you on increasing your prices when you factored in HD. I also never stated that "my way was best". I simply explained WHY I do things the way I do them. I also made it clear that I understand that every market is different.

Once again, my whole was to push the idea that too many videographers ARE underpricing their services. I'm not saying that YOU are.

Just so you know, I started out as the 2nd most expensive videographer in my area, and quickly became the most expensive. But that's because I worked harder than everyone else to provide a better product and better service. Originally I offered only one package; and it included everything .. literally. I decided to try breaking it out and having options for couples to choose from, and I found that couples became much more interested in booking. So again, different things work in different markets. I've just gotten to a point where I refuse to give my time and equipment investments away for free.

How I sell blu-ray to clients, even if they have no PS3/BD player. Coouple like what they see. i tell them all but blu-ray. they say they have no way of playing it. I say here's your chance to buy that PS3 you have hankered after.

That's awesome that this works for you. For me, couples have been completely disinterested in HD. Most of them don't even own HDTV's. So not only would I have to convince them to purchase a blu-ray player, they'd have to purchase an HDTV. Now eventually they probably will anyways, and I try to make this point, but no one is interested. I might be able to get away with adding the cost into my packages and forcing HD on them, but then again I might not. And if the latter is true then I go out of business.

You aren't increasing the cost of your packages by much at all, so it's less of a risk for you to just include HD. The only potential issue is whether or not that cost increase is adequate for the demands of HD. And that's going to depend on your business and your market. It seems quite low to me, but I'm in a different market.

Steve, I get the feeling you think I'm arguing with you. I'm not. In fact, I congratulated you on increasing your prices when you factored in HD. I also never stated that "my way was best". I simply explained WHY I do things the way I do them. I also made it clear that I understand that every market is different.

Once again, my whole was to push the idea that too many videographers ARE underpricing their services. I'm not saying that YOU are.

Just so you know, I started out as the 2nd most expensive videographer in my area, and quickly became the most expensive. But that's because I worked harder than everyone else to provide a better product and better service. Originally I offered only one package; and it included everything .. literally. I decided to try breaking it out and having options for couples to choose from, and I found that couples became much more interested in booking. So again, different things work in different markets. I've just gotten to a point where I refuse to give my time and equipment investments away for free.

Its OK Travis I get exactly where you are coming from. Videographers are often treated as second class citizens behind the photographer but I refuse to belive in that way of thinking ( which has led to some rather serious behind the scenes out of sight finger wagging when a photographer leaps in and ruins shots on purpose to get his next shot. Why they think they have a god given right to walk over videographers........anyway enough of that)

In the past I tried a varied pricelist, but it didn't work for me. the main reason is the couple would want the videographer, buut try and cut it down to bear bones. "We don't need you at the brides house, we don't need you to film interviews, we don't need you after the first dance. Oh, and we don't need the musical montage".

-£50,-£50, -£100. -£75

I can't go and do another job. I am still there for the day, although I will start an hour later and finish an hour earlier. And I am £275 out of pocket.

So I don't give them the choice.

That makes sense, but my starting package WITHOUT any extras is priced high enough that it's not an issue if they don't select any additional options. So in a sense, we're doing the same thing. My starting package includes full day coverage (up to 10 hours). If someone says, "We don't want pre-ceremony coverage." Then I say, "That's fine, you don't have to use it, but the price doesn't change." If they don't want the highlights video, same thing. I don't negotiate my packages AT ALL. I've had people ask me to "throw something in as a bonus", but I don't do that either. I've had people ask for cash discounts, or paid in full discounts, or whatever. I don't do it. I tell them that my work is worth exactly what it is priced at, no less.

What I noticed about having packages that included everything was that people felt too restricted. They felt like they had no choices to make. Just my experience. Do what works for you, though .. just make sure you get paid what you're worth.

As for boneheaded photogs ... nevermind .. back to my happy place ...

Hey Steve...I'm a huge fan and preacher of Cinema Craft..
Can you see a standalone software HD encoder coming in the near future?

I'd jump to Bluray in a heartbeat if there was a dedicated software encoder like CCE for HD...

That would be fabulous. Not many have got a copy of EncoderMP as there is no free trial. But I think its well worth the money. A HD version would be super.

Well as long as things are going well then i say Slainte - More of it to ya and long may it last

Just my 2cents.
Of the 50 or so couples I talked with at the bridal show a few weeks ago, only 1 asked about HD delivery. (I told them $500 extra)
One bride said "I just found out yesterday what HD was!"

I was preparing myself for the wave of interest in HD that would come with the big transition coming up of free HD over the airwaves. The only problem is that the huge majority of people will still be getting SD through cable and satelite for who knows how long. I don't think that many people are willing to pay for it.

Anyway, I think the idea of offering hardware is a good one. Back when we made the transition to DVD and compatability was a nightmare, I thought about offering a free DVD player if theirs wouldn't play the disc. I never did it, but I would have if someone really had issues.

This year I am just putting the projects on Blu-Ray if the client requests it. It's easy and little to no additional cost.



Where are you finding blank Bluray discs for only a little more than DVD's. I thought they were around $30 each

Where are you finding blank Bluray discs for only a little more than DVD's. I thought they were around $30 each

Check some of my posts. I'm getting them between $5.50 and $7.00. It's cheaper per gig than goo DV tape now.

I'm thinking about upgrading to HD this year as well, but HD delivery scares me off. I'm trying to gather all pros and cons of HD camera also for use in SD, ie. native 16x9 (all my recent weddings are 16x9 - ppl asking for 4:3 are being told that it doesn't look good on their plasma).

Offering it as a standard is a bonus, since couples might think they're getting something extra they don't need at this time.

I just looked on the net for prices of BR-DVD players and you can get base, cheap Samsung for less then $200. I'm sure any couple can handle that expense after the wedding (or simply add it to their gift list) :-)

Now let me ask the guys who upgraded to BR - what is the initial cost of BR? Burner? Player? Software? disks? etc? Simply how much it'll cost me to sell first BR?

Now let me ask the guys who upgraded to BR - what is the initial cost of BR? Burner? Player? Software? disks? etc? Simply how much it'll cost me to sell first BR?

I don't do weddings but I am doing a lot of Blu-Ray now.

Burner was $350 or $399 back in June, can't remember. I bought a portable that had firewire and USB connections so I could use it on my desktop or take it in the field with my laptop. Works great.

I am getting a mix of single and dual layer disks these days. I ordered 10 dual layers back in June with the player. They were $38 each. I ordered some yesterday, paid $27.99 each. I ordered single layer Verbatims on a spindle of 10 about 2 weeks ago. Cost me about $7 a disk. I noticed a spindle yesterday while I was shopping for something else, that put the disks at about $5.50 each. That is cheaper than what I was spending for master quality DV tapes and approaching what I was spending for cheap DV tapes I used for scratch purposes.

Shooting HD has just become cheaper for me than shooting DV. SDHC acquisition media is re-usable unlike tape, and BD-R is now cheaper per hour and MUCH cheaper per gig than DV tape.

I use Sony Vegas and DVD Architect. So I spent nothing extra to be able to author Blu-Rays.

Other people may have different experiences, but mine have been nothing but positive.

Mark just mentioned he quoted $500 extra for Blu-Ray delivery. My burner, with disks didn't cost that much. Not sure that ANYONE would be interested in it at that price. I could see charging $50 extra to incrementally pay for the burner, and for the slight increase in media costs over DVD but wow...

Mark just mentioned he quoted $500 extra for Blu-Ray delivery. My burner, with disks didn't cost that much. Not sure that ANYONE would be interested in it at that price. I could see charging $50 extra to incrementally pay for the burner, and for the slight increase in media costs over DVD but wow...

$500 extra is a nice money to pay it all off at once, unless you just purchased 2 HD cams as well and have to incorporate that into the cost of production.

I'm facing a big dilemma - how can I get my $10k back if I invest it into new HD cams and other hardware (good thing my workstation is HDV ready). But I guess that's a problem everyone has or will face during the transition.

I'm facing a big dilemma - how can I get my $10k back if I invest it into new HD cams and other hardware (good thing my workstation is HDV ready). But I guess that's a problem everyone has or will face during the transition.

Two comments...

1. What will it cost you in a years time when you're the only guy who can't offer it at ANY price because you don't have the gear?

2. Where are you getting $10k from? And why on earth would you go HDV at this point? If I was just getting into this I'd certainly be steering clear of HDV.

Two comments...

1. What will it cost you in a years time when you're the only guy who can't offer it at ANY price because you don't have the gear?

2. Where are you getting $10k from? And why on earth would you go HDV at this point? If I was just getting into this I'd certainly be steering clear of HDV.

You're right Perrone. I can't justify how much money I'll potentially loose if I don't go HD.

As far as budget: $10k goes into two HDV cams (FX1000 and Z5U), mic for Z5 (need better shotgun), and LED lights for both cams, and other accessories (batteries, tapes, etc). I'd also love to get Brevis, but I don't think I can fit it in my budget.