Is anyone successful editing with the file that theese greaat cameras create?

If so, would you be so kind as to tell us what you have used and what your machine's specs are.

Thanks

DBK

Vegas Video. Win2000 Pro PC with AMD 2100+ cpu and 1gig DDR memory. Renders a little slower than DV material, but still acceptable.

MPEG Edit Studio is a stripped down version of a Japan company called KDDI. The software that comes with the camera is a lite version. The full version sells form $7500.00 but the lite version is full of bugs probably introduced by striping out all the features.
There are work arounds to the bugs but the workaround totally suck. Let me know if you need to know them.

Just started playing with Adobe Premier with Aspect Plug-in. Works fantastic! Very fast, but costly.

Don't know Vegas, but would recommend AP with Aspect Plug-in.

Sasha

Sasha,

I’m very interested in your impressions of the Aspect plug-in. I’ve tried working with MPEG Edit Studio LE and although I’ve not found it terrible full of bugs, it is pretty clunky. I’m very interested in the new release of Premiere Pro and Encore. I’m hoping that with the Aspect Plug-in that this may be the real E-ticket for editing. Please keep us informed.

DBK,

I'm very new to Adobe Premier. Using v6.5 now with Pro on its way. So far the Plug In has work outstanding. I've had some beginner level questions/problems and Aspect support has walked me through the solution just fine.

At this point I have to learn some of AP's more advanced features to truly test Aspect plugin but so far it is working great and I have no reservations about completing the purchase.

Looking at Aspect's support board, I'm surprised more people aren't posting questions. I wonder how many people are trying/using the Aspect Plug-In? Apparently not many...yet.

Sasha

Can both aspect and vegas export the video back into the m2t and mpeg formats?? Any advantages of aspect over the significantly cheaper vegas video?

Instead of working with mpeg files, I convert them to AVIs and voila - super easy, real-time editing and previews in pretty much any NLE.

Mine is Adobe Premiere Pro - recommended (but be ready to shell out extra $300 for Dolby 5.1 export via the bundled Minnetonka plug-in, which stops working after 3 tries.)

1. Import your HD footage using the bundled HD Capture Utility. It creates mpeg-ts files on your hard drive.

2. Convert them to MPEG2 using free, super-fast HDTVtoMPEG2 utility. It accepts batch processing so you won't have to convert each file individually. These MPEG2 files are still in DVD-compatible format, so you cannot import them directly into Adobe, hus next step:

3. Convert MPEG2 files into .avi using free DVD2AVI utility and fast, lossless HUFFYUV codec.

All aforementioned utilities and codecs are easily downloadable from the Web - just do the search.

The end result: you got your universally accepted, HD .avi files, now edit them without a $1200 plug-in.

Downside:

1. these utilities will probably not work on Macs, and
2. resulting AVI file size.

Comparison for every 6 minutes of 1280x720p30 HD footage:

MPEG-T- 1Gb
MPEG2 - about 5% smaller
HUFFYUV compressed AVI - 12Gb (so you need a 120Gb drive for every hour of HD footage.)

So you definitely pay the price in form of storage requirements/drive speed when using AVIs.

I think this is a good solution hands down because it frees you from the restrictions of MPEG2 format and back into the free world of AVI viewing/processing :)

Oh, and the price is right.

Anyone who sees something wrong with this way of getting from MPEG-TS to AVI, please opine - I'd love to learn a shortcut, if any.

Please note that I do not account for demuxing of the sound, as I use double-system in any case (my production sound is NOT recorded by the camera.) I'm not being snooty - this is just a reality of life that no matter what you do, you cannot possibly pull a decent (no hiss/low noise/wide dynamic diapason) sound from *any* camera that is sub-$25,000 at this time. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

BTW, the ultimate SOUND authority is Mr Jay Rose who is a columnist at DV.com, and is very active and helpful in their Sound forum he moderates. He is also a terrific guy: everyone of you who has sound-related questions, just try to lure him into participating in this forum, he'll be THE ONE to actually help you! (I'm not affiliated with Jay in any way.) His web site is http://www.dplay.com (disregard the looks - Jay is sound professional, not web designer...)

Great! Wonderful tips. I tried that HDTVtompeg2 and renamed the files to .ts, but for some reason the program just closes after I try to add them to the batch list. I am only using small 10 second files I downloaded off the internet as my camera is being shipped today. Do the files have to be larger or am I missing something?

<<<-- Originally posted by Lisa Lee : Can both aspect and vegas export the video back into the m2t and mpeg formats?? Any advantages of aspect over the significantly cheaper vegas video? -->>>

Today only CineForm's Aspect HD can directly export back to DVHS and to the JVC camera by producing compliant M2T files as one of the export options. We do expect Sony to Vegas to support M2T exports, yet Vegas will never match the real-time performance of Aspect HD. If you are using the JVC camera for any production work, the real-time editing performance of Aspect HD will pay for itself very quickly. Even the simplist productions benefit from 30fps real-time color correction, dissolves and titles (for complex productions Aspect HD can several simultaneous real-time 30fps video and graphics layers.)

Aspect HD has a 30-day evaluation/money-back guarantee, so you can find out if it meets (or exceeds) your needs at no risk.

<<<-- Originally posted by Lisa Lee : Great! Wonderful tips. I tried that HDTVtompeg2 and renamed the files to .ts, but for some reason the program just closes after I try to add them to the batch list. I am only using small 10 second files I downloaded off the internet as my camera is being shipped today. Do the files have to be larger or am I missing something? -->>>

Lisa be sure you are using version 1.09 I have tried other versions and they don't work with m2t files. Here is a link to the download in the avs forum.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=227837

The thread is huge so search for 1.09 once the page is loaded.

Even with this version it seems to strip out audio tracks and at this point I have been unable to resolve this issue.

Mike

Hi Alex,
Did you dump a temporary file >2GB with huffyuv compressinon? I have problem with large files. I have no problem with importing large files to P6.5, editing, and then compressing to .ts mpeg stream. But sometimes I need to process a partially edited file in the VirtualDub. Frame server is bad for dumping large file. Once I dumped this way and tried to play the file and got a message: "Frameserver not servig." How such a file "knows" it. Had to restart project, start server and .... then I could play this 5 GB file. :-) :-o .

Yep, got it to work thanks for the tip about 1.09 working and the earlier version not.

And, I also can't get audio with this method. At least I can play a little while before I have to decide between vegas and premiere.

Andre, Premiere Pro did not give me any problems regardless the file size (yet).

On the other hand, I never tried frame serving, so can't help you on this, sorry.

What do you use VirtualDub for on these files?

Alex, I use VirtualDub for motion correction. In skydiving freefal my head dosn't work like an ideal tripod. It is OK for showing jumps but for 3D video - using Pulfrich effect - I have to correct for tiny vibrations that distract eyes from 3D perception.
In the GR-HD1, the optical stabilizer destabilizes video when in freefal. I simply glued the floating lens in place and got much better results. My old, Sony's comcorder stabilizer was much better (but not HD). BTW, skydiving community warns agains using JVC camcorders for video in freefal - yea, they have poor stabilizers, but there is no other HDTV camcorder on the market that I could use. So I eat the frog and suffer :-) .
Mainly, one jump is below 2GB limit, but sometimes I join few jumps together so I can use digital stabilizer (very slow - 3 fps) when I am making another jump. It is fast sport, and other skydivers want to see their performance ASAP ... and I still have to pack my parachute :-).
On other note: I have, but don't use PPro. The .ts outputs have 1440x960 resoltion- looks like double DV size. Have not such problems with P6.5 and 1.3b MC mpeg encoder.

Andre, I do agree that HD1's OIS actually resonates and makes image *worse* than without OIS (off pos.)

In HD10, it seems better to me - but I still wouldn't rely on it...

As for the image stabilization in Software, I saw something like that in my AE 5.5 Production, but never used it. Whatever it is, should work pretty well - I have high regards to AE 5.5 in all aspects from experience...

Andre, forgot to ask: why was it necessary to glue the OIS in your camera - isn't it enough to turn OIS off in the menu?

Kindly advise.

Alex, as an easy test of vibrations try this: 1) wide angle, 2) lay the camera on a flat, rigid table and film something 5 feet away, 3) knock with your finger the top of the focus ring and at the same time firmly push the camera to the table so it doesn't move. 4) observe!
In my case the image vibrated vertically up and down and it didn't matter if the OIS was on or off. I found that OIS works only in half to full zoom. Before modification, when I made a steep turn under a conopy, the image moved up by a quarter of its size and stayed there till I stopped the turn.
I know how the OIS is constructed, I disassembled an optic block to glue the floating lens in place. There is a large sping there, 3/4 inch long and 3/4 inch in dia. It is compressed and push the floating lens block against few tiny balls on the plate to reduce friction and keep the lens centered. It has own resonance and vibrates like crazy.
When in freefal or on the step outside an airplane, I filemed by accident the sun, I had, a charcteristic for a single chip, a verical geen line. Before OIS was glued, this line looked like a snake with quite a large vibration amplitude. Now this line is straight like a mast!
So be so kind and make the vibration test on your HD10 and mail me the results, please.
Thanks in advance,

this is very comforting, as I thought it's just me going crazy and imagining the resonance of the OIS.

I discovered that while the cam was mounted on a car's hood.

First off, picture was much better with OIS off than on. With OIS on, it seemed like there's an additional vibrational added - which is what I call OIS resonance for the lack of better definition.

Now, I did notice the effect you are referring to - the cam seems to be super-sensitive to any slight pushes even when mounted on a tripod. This time, however, I had OIS on at all times, so can't compare if it'd better with it off or not.

Also, mine is HD10.

I'm going to great lengths to stabilize the camera, including my own construction of suspended gyro platform. If gluing the OIS will provide additional help, then I'm all for it.

Questions:

- Would you recommend OIS fix to everyone, or only when the camera is used to film extreme sports?

- What are up/downsides of the fix?

- If OIS is switched ON via menu after you glue it, will something overheat/break?

- For a complete dummy in camera optics like me, how hard would it be to apply your fix without killing the camera?

Thanks!

Alex, no problem with gluing. To move the floating lens up-down, left-right, there are "linear" actuator coils (very small) with Hall effect as a feedback. At least this is what I figured out from diagrams. When jumping and with the OIS on, the vibrations excede the level of stabilization and nothing breaks. So what a heck? From my tests, I found that even when OIS is on, there is NO stabilization action for a wide angle zoom positon. I did the test this way: glue a tiny peace of masking tape (.040 inch dia) to an old :-) UV filter and film. The spot is visible even when zooming. It goes slightly out of focus, but it is still visible. When the spot moves and picture is steady then the OIS works! Otherwise spot is stable and image moves.
Gluing: 1) you loose waranty !!!! 2) you have to diassemble the whole camera to have access to the right srew that keeps the focus ring assy in place. 3) If you ever repaired an old style watch, you can succeed.
In my case I bought a brand new optical block ($300) and worked on it first, had no problem, and later replaced it. The drawback: I had to mount a CCD sensor to the new block. You need a practice with desoldering about 20 pins and soldering them back. Reason: the last two screws are under printed circuit board. Not a wise construction!
You can risk and redo an actual optical block. There is tiny advantage - there is an extra lens in front of a CCD sensor so dust will not fall on it.
.... And most important part! I am an experimental physicist. In past I modified optic of a 16 mm camera so I could use it for skydiving. Later I made BW camera, from scratch, and used it for skydiving with a transmitter (satelite type) to record jumps on the ground. Then, in 80s, video recorders were too heavy to skydive with.
As you see, the story is not very optimistic, but I had no choice. Or I waisted $3500, or modified the camera. I sent a letter to JVC in Japan showing the results of few tests (jumps included) with the tiny spot on a UV filter. They answered, that when there is a problem with an optic, they change the whole block. Da that! They were faaaaaassssst. Before I had an answer, I made over 40 jumps with a new, modified optical block.
How good is the camera now? When I jumped with movie 16mm I had NO stabilizer. The same with few video cameras. So I have practice. Neverthless I liked my Sony comcorders with a stabilizer. I don't like them now! The HDTV is much better than DV, and JVC delivers quite a good picture without brightness flicker like eg. 3CCD PD-100 (obviously in freefal :-). The iris control inside a JVC optical block is done much better than the OIS. It is not affecter by inertia or gravitational forces. It should be faster - and it can be - but I thing, the problem is in the software.
If only the editing of HD was as fast as DV. No mercy :-)

Andre, Thank you for the fast reply and for the superbly interesting post.

I was fixing home electronics (tape players etc.) since I was in my early teens, sometimes without the schematics; and I even managed to publish a small article in radio amateur mag when I was 18.

But that was 20 years ago :)

I have to admit that modifications you described do exceed both the level of risk I'm willing to take with the $3K cam, and my level of expertise at this time.

I'm also betting that my rigs will indeed stabilize the (unmodified) camera to the extent that I need for my short films... no extreme sport shots here... so far test are encouraging, I'll post some photos when it's done...

Once again, kudos for your courage - both as a skydiver, and camera modifier! :)

And, I especially liked your satellite-type transmitter for the free-falling optical block thing! In a recent indie short, a group of enthusiasts filmed the free fall from the plane and into the ground. They suspended 2 Eluras in the head of, essentially, a wooden bomb that was dropped from the plane. One camera was still working and miniDV footage was recovered fine after the impact. The most impressive part of the short was preparations.


Also, you wrote:
"If only the editing of HD was as fast as DV."

But it is... I convert all video into HYFFYUV-compressed AVIs (still lossless quality) and edit with Adobe Premiere Pro. Fast, painless, including real-time previews. Can't say what people do on Mac platform - i believe Steve Mullen is an expert on that...

Alex, or anyone in the know, how does the file size of a HUFFYUV compressed AVI compare to uncompressed AVI? From my experimentation using Vegas to decompress m2t files, an hours worth of decompressed m2t would take up 435GB of space!

I recently did an HD production and edited it at Greene HD in Arlington TX. I wanted to edit my offline for my inexpensive hundreds of hours at home and was concerned with translation errors between the FAST system I had been using for years (it will export CMX or any EDL format but we didn't know if all my fine tuning would translate. Being on a deadline, I couldn't afford errors - so I asked them what they were editing on-line with. They are using the In-Sync Speedrazor to control BOXX HD so I called In-Sync and wound up buying BLADE which is their DV version of the same software. I had the HD dubbed to Beta SP with matching time code and we opened up my BLADE project file in Speedrazor and simply did a conforming job with the original HD footage. A big bonus for me is that BLADE is optimized for the DVX 100 and is also resolution independent.. which means that theoretically you could edit HD or any size image on it. I really like the interface (now that I've undergone the learning curve). It has unlimited layers of both video and audio and some nice transparency controls for layers... all in all the best DV (or any) edit choice IMHO.

Dave, huffyuv makes HD avis 123 GB per hour.

I think your mileage will vary, as always, depending on the video's content.

I'm now getting 1280x720p30 HUFFYUV-compressed AVIs to the tune of 85Gb per hour with stereo sound.

So you need about 120Gb size hard drive to hold 1 hour of HYFYUV-compressed AVI video, to be sure. (This does NOT account for the temporary drive space required by your NLE during editing/conversions/output etc. Have a *separate* drive for all your applications' Temp folders; I do.)

I've bought the 4HDV, but it's not working for me.

I can't seem to get one 3rd party plugin to work - MoreMissingTools. If I could get that to work...maybe I could edit something in FCP and post a full review.

But, I've had the 4HDV a few weeks and haven't gotten it to work.

Great- just the news I didn't want to hear......I guess I'll just pick up a PDX10 and call it a day!
16:9 out of the box- standard DV.....just works in NLE's! Not quite HDV but it seems FCP can't deal with that JVC for the moment.

Thanks for the words.

I started this thread and to get the answer decided to create the Ultimate Resource for this camera nd Workflow.

The Jumpstart Guide to HDV Acquisition and Production will show you how to edit this in both PC and Mac formats. In addition you'll get about $300 in freebees.

For more info, visit my web site. We have a special going on now.

Cheers