I downloaded the Neo HD trial and converted a standard 5D2 .mov file using HDlink, which is the program flow I expect to use.

The video result was awesome, played in my players, and edits great in Premiere CS3. The audio was a different story. Every clip I converted had a few seconds of buzzing and then silence.

Is this something in my system or do the 5D2 files not work yet?

If you want to see an example, download one of LaForet's raw files, like MVI_0492.MOV. If you want me to make it available for download myself, let me know.

Official support is coming in version 4 or NEO, we fortunate that the base tools in v3.x already work pretty well the the video conversion. Audio was another matter. Many pro users are not using the audio at all, as it is not high quality, but we do intend to support it. We currently don't have a easy work around for the audio.

A temporary workaround is to convert the file with NEO HD, as you did, which gives you the video. Then download the freeware MPEG StreamClip:

Squared 5 - MPEG Streamclip video converter for Windows XP/Vista (http://www.squared5.com/svideo/mpeg-streamclip-win.html)

1. Use MPEG StreamClip to export the audio only (MP4 AAC will do) to a file.

2. Then use your NLE to recombine the Cineform video track and the "good" audio track and re-render it as a new Cineform file. Make sure you delete the original "bad" audio track that you get from the Cineform conversion, before re-rendering.

3. The problem with splitting the audio and video is that you can end up with two files that are slightly different lengths on the timeline and the audio will be out of sync, without some further tinkering.

This workflow gets you Cineform video with computer RGB color (0-255) and the audio. Of course, if you don't care about the color issue, you can just use MPEG Streamclip and render as Cineform, but you do need NEO HD installed to do so.

Official support is coming in version 4 or NEO, we fortunate that the base tools in v3.x already work pretty well the the video conversion. Audio was another matter. Many pro users are not using the audio at all, as it is not high quality, but we do intend to support it. We currently don't have a easy work around for the audio.

David, there is a simple work-around - ReMaster.. ;-)

The more a looked at that workflow, the more I realized that for most NLEs, the MPEG_Streamclip step is extraneous. Just open the Cineform AVI (CFHD video with "bad" audio) and then open the original MOV file from the 5D MKII( h.264 video with "good" audio). Then just turn off the "bad" audio track and the h.264 video track.

The more a looked at that workflow, the more I realized that for most NLEs, the MPEG_Streamclip step is extraneous. Just open the Cineform AVI (CFHD video with "bad" audio) and then open the original MOV file from the 5D MKII( h.264 video with "good" audio). Then just turn off the "bad" audio track and the h.264 video track.

Yes I was thinking of suggesting that. We will get the audio correct in NEO HD v4.

@David,

I read over the most recent entry in your blog and I you're the first person that has posted a logical explanation of the 5D MKII is really doing with regard to the "super" ends of the histogram.

One thing that I wasn't completely clear about, is whether you are sure that the MOV files are really 16-235? I'm reading (probably incorrectly) that what you said as the MOV file itself is 16-235 and color space conversions by NLEs are even reducing this further (~30-220). Other people have looked at the blog and concluded that the MOV files are 0-255, but are being misinterpreted as 16-235 by all decoders and then further altered by NLEs (through color space conversion) to ~ 30-220:

http://prolost.blogspot.com/

We currently don't have a easy work around for the audio.

I created a simple perl script that does the following:


Examine all MOV files in the current directory.
Create one AVS file for each MOV
Each AVI file just contains DirectShowSource()
CoreAVC decodes video and audio correctly
Add the AVS to Virtualdub batch
Virtualdub encodes to Cineform (I'm using Canopus codec)
When all the files are done, execute the batch


The full dynamic range is preserved, audio works, but Virtualdub is kinda slow.

I created a simple perl script that does the following:


...
Examine all MOV files in the current directory.
Create one AVS file for each MOV
Each AVI file just contains DirectShowSource()
...


Sorry for the dumb question, I'm a total noob...
I've been working with the Neo HD trial in combination with CoreAVC but I keep ending up with clipped output (especially crushed blacks).
When I re-wrap with QuickTimePro (to mp4) I keep the detail in the dark area's but the editing in Vegas is then terribly slow. I can't process the resulting mp4 files in Neo (timecode error)...

Could you explain how to execute these 3 steps?
2: How do I create an AVS file?
3: How can I check if only the directshowsource is within the avi file?

*edit*
It seems I've solved the problem by deïnstalling Quick-Time. I've tried to change the merit of the directshow filter but that didn't work. After deïnstalling QuickTime CoreAVC CineForm + CoreAVC render the correct colours it seems...

Taroen, try the latest NEO HD, with the last version some system weren't using CoreAVC even though it was installed.

@David,

I read over the most recent entry in your blog and I you're the first person that has posted a logical explanation of the 5D MKII is really doing with regard to the "super" ends of the histogram.

One thing that I wasn't completely clear about, is whether you are sure that the MOV files are really 16-235? I'm reading (probably incorrectly) that what you said as the MOV file itself is 16-235 and color space conversions by NLEs are even reducing this further (~30-220). Other people have looked at the blog and concluded that the MOV files are 0-255, but are being misinterpreted as 16-235 by all decoders and then further altered by NLEs (through color space conversion) to ~ 30-220:

ProLost (http://prolost.blogspot.com/)

I have an even clearer picture off what is happening since that blog post. All the discussions of 16-235 vs 0-255, are thinking Studio RGB to Computer systems RGB when the fault is occurring in the YUV space before any RGB transform -- set the RGB mode will not fix the truncation as YUV to RGB math typically assumes YUV data has display black at 16. However most AVC decoders are reacting to a wrong flag in the bit-stream and are stretching the standard 16-235 YUV data out to 0-255 (you can see the gap in the decoded RGB parade, showing the range has been stretched), place the YUV display black 0. I believe CoreAVC is simply ignoring this "stretch the range" flag.

Everyone is claiming that the QT 7.6 update has fixed this issue with the 5D MKII, so all this may be moot.

As to your explanation, I agree that just because people have documented histograms below 16 and above 235, doesn't necessarily mean that those histograms are faithfully translated through every step in the workflow from camera to NLE. Incorrect mapping could give you a similar result.

Yes. I believe the 5D is marked as full range, and now the QT update it acknowledging that.

A couple more minor items. If you are using CoreAVC decoder in conjunction with Cineform to do the conversions, make sure that the CoreAVC decoder is set to "PC (0-255)" for both Input levels and Output levels and not "Auto Detect". Also, an examination of the waveforms comparing both the original MOV file and the converted Cineform file, using both Vegas 8.0c & Premiere CS3, both show both sources now (after installation of QT 7.6) at cRGB levels, but the waveforms are not quite the same. I guess that this is to be expected.

I'll have to update my blog -- good find.

Jon Fairhurst had some additional observations on Vegas 8.0c & the QT 7.6 upgrade:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/999339-post13.html

So... I'm a bit confused about the Quicktime update. Is it just allowing us to rewrap the MOV file so that it correctly interprets the colorspace and then output it as another H.264 file? This will still not allow us to edit the file in real time in Premier Pro CS3, though, right?

Julian

The color levels issue is, for the most part, fixed and you can now edit the MOV files directly in both Vegas 8.0c and Premiere CS3, without having the blacks crushed and the whites clipped. But the previewing speed issue on most PCs is still there. The Cineform workflow gives you better preview speeds, as does a re-wrap to MP4. You can improve matters with RAM previews for short segments, but that is feasible on a PC, only if you running Vista x64 and you have >= 4GB RAM.

But the long-term solution to this problem takes an upgrade to either a dual Xeon CPU (8 total cores) workstation or a single CPU Quad core i7 system. Intel was supposed to announce soon, the availability of a dual CPU workstation motherboard that would handle 2 Core i7 CPUs (8 cores+), which also would be a major improvement:

Fudzilla - Dual CPU X58 motherboard pixelized (http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9731&Itemid=37)

The high bitrate MOV files just are too taxing for most PCs to handle efficiently. That's why people are using either proxies or conversion to intermediate codecs, such as Cineform.

After trying all kind of programs for editing Mov 5DII files with Premiere CS3 on PC, I tried ProspectHD and I think I found a very good solution. In the beginning I wasn't able to convert the mov files with HDlink so I tried to simply import the original mov files on the timeline of Premiere and then export them as avi with cinerform. Then I could editing them without rendering.
After installing the new version of Vista Codecs and updating Quicktime to 7.6, I could convert the MOv file with HDlink, but the sound is not right and the beginning of the avi goes in slow motion. But surprisingly I can now just import the original mov files in a cineform avi project and make my editing without rendering!!! Preview is perfect.

I tried it under Windows 7 and it works perfectly.

The color levels issue is, for the most part, fixed and you can now edit the MOV files directly in both Vegas 8.0c and Premiere CS3, without having the blacks crushed and the whites clipped.

By re-wrapping the MOV file? How does one do this in QuickTime? Just saving it again? When I import the original 5D mk II files into Premier Pro CS3 and try to export them, Premier crashes if I have more than a few minutes of 5D mk II clips on the timeline, and I know I'm not the only one with this problem. What stops Premier Pro CS3 from crashing after the files have been run through QT?

Julian

By re-wrapping the MOV file? How does one do this in QuickTime? Just saving it again? When I import the original 5D mk II files into Premier Pro CS3 and try to export them, Premier crashes if I have more than a few minutes of 5D mk II clips on the timeline, and I know I'm not the only one with this problem. What stops Premier Pro CS3 from crashing after the files have been run through QT?

Julian

Let me try to answer these questions one by one. If you install QT 7.6, the improvement that is made is strictly to the color level issue. It doesn't make the files any easier to edit. It just allows the NLE to work with the video just as a camera shot it.

If you want to work with the MOV files without any re-wrapping or re-encoding in Premiere or Vegas on a PC, you better have an extremely fast computer, preferably with Vista x64 and a lot of RAM. Unfortunately, although MOV files are a native format on Macs, they just don't edit as well on PCs. I've been using Sony Vegas and Premiere for years and I've never been able to edit MOV files on a PC, with any degree of efficiency. And none of those MOV files were high bitrate h.264 files like the 5D MKII produces.

So, assuming you don't have the cash to shell out on a high end Core i7 PC, just yet, what are your options? First you can rewrap the MOV file to MP4. MP4 files do edit a bit better on PC-based NLEs. Second, you could work with proxy files. I'm not going to get into that here, since you can search www.dvinfo.net or use Google and find out everything about proxy editing that you'd ever want to know. Third, you can edit the MOV files directly, but use RAM previews. This will allow you to preview small segments of your edited clip in real time. But this option works best with Vista x64 & adding RAM. Lastly, you could just re-encode everything to an intermediate codec, like Cineform. These options are presented from the least to most expensive. Personally, I use Cineform HD. The other advantage to Cineform is that you can edit in stages, re-render as Cineform and lose very little quality between each generation.

BTW, supposedly Premiere CS4 has better memory management under Vista x64 and reduces the number of crashes, caused by Premiere CS3 running out memory. I say "supposedly", because I have not yet upgraded to CS4.

Thanks for the reply, Jay.

First you can rewrap the MOV file to MP4. MP4 files do edit a bit better on PC-based NLEs.

...But MP4s are not supported in Premier Pro CS3, right? I believe I tried already!


Lastly, you could just re-encode everything to an intermediate codec, like Cineform.

I tried the Cineform Neo HD trial and had nothing but problems with it (see above, and other threads!). After struggling with it for a several days, having HD Link crash constantly, being advised to purchase other software to support HD Link and still having crashes every time HD Link was used, I was told that Neo HD was not the solution I needed. I was told that since my NLE was Premier Pro CS3, I should use Cineform Prospect HD... which is way too expensive for a hobbyist like me. So all I can say is that I was not too impressed with my Cineform experience. I'd like to give them some money, but I don't think I can justify it based on what I've seen so far. Maybe the new version will be the solution I'm looking for.

Julian

Correct. The mp4 re-wrap is a Vegas option only and it really doesn't give you too much improvement in preview speed, if that's what you are looking for. People were suggesting this option only to get around the color level issue that was introduced by previous versions of QT.

My thoughts on Cineform are relatively simple. If you tried the demo and it didn't perform to your satisfaction with your files and your computer configuration, you shouldn't buy it.

When you start combining the intricacies of 5D MKII files with anything but a very recent vintage, high end PC, you are probably going to expose weaknesses that would never show up when editing most other video files. Keep in mind that the official statement from Cineform is that "full support" of the 5D MKII will only occur with the next major version (Version 4) of Cineform. I'm guessing that Premiere CS4, running under Vista x64 and using the new version of Prospect HD (when released) will provide the best option for editing the video from the 5D MKII on the PC. But we will have to wait and see. Neo HD, combined with Vegas 8.0c, running under Vista x64, presently gives usable preview frame rates on newer PCs, but the fps are still not real time. Of course, you'd have to ask somebody with a Intel Core i7 system, to get an unbiased opinion on this.

I'm sure that this problems with editing video from the 5D MKII, will gradually disappear, just because faster and faster computers will become available and catch up with the technology that the camera has presented.

Of course, you'd have to ask somebody with a Intel Core i7 system, to get an unbiased opinion on this.

I have tried it with Windows 7 64 bit and my impression is that it works better than with Vista 64. Just little differences, but under Windows 7 the preview on Premiere of original mov files works perfectly without rendering.

Working on a PC....

I took a 5DMKII movie file, opened it up in the new Quick Time 7.6.. then exported the
file back out using the same settings as the original file... for color correction

Brought the new file into Premiere (CS3) with a Cineform preset, again the preset was the
same as the original file, though sound changed to 48K to bring it to norm.
Put the file on the timeline and rendered it. Checked that the colors were correct with
the scopes,they were good. Output the file to Mpeg 2 format (24P) and put it on a memory stick and played the file on the Playstation perfectly.

This should be the same workflow to create a blu ray disk from the 5DMKII

Today, after reinstaling the new VistaCodec from shark007 (I really would like to know why without them, Cineform seems not working right), I got rid of the little delay I had sometimes during transition with Vista 64 (I didn't have it with Windows 7). Now I can work with original Mov files on Premiere without rendering and the preview works in both systems.
But I have a powerful pc.

My guess is that you didn't have mp4splitter.ax (which comes with the Cineform package, but is not automatically installed) registered. The Vista Codec Pack installs a bunch of stuff like AC3 Filter, Haali Media Splitter and the Matroska/Gabest MP4 Splitter. The latter is MP4Splitter.ax.

Windows 7 has much better built-in handling of h.264 video than Vista does.

It could be. shark007 Vistacodecs install the Gabest MP4 splitter. But why did the Cineform demo not install it?
The only problem I have now is the sound. When I preview the video after a while the sounds stops like an old lp and repeat the last few seconds over and over again. If I stop the preview and restart it again, the problem disappear for few seconds and then it comes again...

mp4splitter.ax is not automatically installed when you install Cineform, because most people don't need it. The more extraneous codecs that you install on your system, the more likelihood that you will experience odd behavior when dealing with audio and video.

There's another thread about the Cineform AVI sound problem and a temporary workaround. In your NLE, open both the original MOV file and the converted Cineform AVI file. Use the audio from the MOV file and the video from the Cineform AVI file. Disable the other two tracks. If you want, you can render this project as Cineform and the resulting AVI file will have the Cineform video and the "good" audio. Or just edit it as needed.

The only problem with this workaround is that the audio and video tracks are from the two different files and they may be of a slightly different length. You may have to tinker with them to perfectly synchronize the audio and video. This is why this approach is only a temporary workaround.

Actually the reason why I want to edit direct on Premiere the original mov files is that I want to avoid too many convertions (sometimes I have many files). But If I use the converted audio of the Cineform AVI, it is indeed longer than the mov. So I get problems with synch.
Actually the problem is only during preview. If I stop it and then start it again, the problem is gone for a while. When I export the mov after editing, the audio is perfect.

So, I finally managed to get it right (just by chance). That means I can import the original MOV file on Premiere in a new Cineform project, edit them with perfect preview and without rendering (audio and sound) and export them as a AVI Cineform. Now HD link convertion worked one time in the right way, but then it stopped as usual. The only thing I know is that after istalling again the Vista Codecs from shark007 and choosing set the mov to use Haali splitter it started finally to work without the audio delays...

PS: with Windows 7 I still didn't manage to get it work perfectly.

hey David,

I need a bit of a reality check... So i can plan around this stressful project of mine.

I have a huge client job that is due in 2 weeks. We shot mostly at night with the mark II.

Realistically do u think this new neo V4 would get released sometime this week or next? Is there a projected released date? End of feb?

Im in a bit of a panic. SHould i plan for plan B? Or hang in as somthing might come out soon?

Check out the free transcoding solution I posted here.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos-5d-mk-ii-hd/143184-found-very-good-5d2-transcoding-solution.html

Works pretty well and the software feels very robust and reliable.

Using CineForm HDLink (And windows XP ), I also had major problems with audio.
(In fact, I had no audio at all !)

So I installed ffdshow and tried to ensure that it decodes the audio (And audio only):

ffdshow:
Video decoder: uncheck all supported video
Audio decoder: check "Raw files" (Uncompressed : all supported)

(CoreAVC: as usual)

Result is perfect.
(Sorry for my bad english)

Didier,

Thanks for an excellent solution for handling the audio under NEO HD.

Well, after following your suggestion, cineform didn't work anymore on my pc (probably because ffdshow caused conflicts with vistacodecs). I couldn't get any preview starting on premiere. I had to uninstall ffdshow, vistacodecs and corecodec because I couldn't get anymore the right settings. Then, after many tries, I managed to get it work like before.

I'm leery of ffdshow anyway, but it didn't work, with it installed under Vista x64 (as per your suggestions for setting the ffdshow options). 5D2 MOV files converted to CFHD AVI, either had no audio (no change) or would lock up the media players, when playing the file (new result).

I’m leery of Vista. So I've only tried this method under XP

On my first PC, it worked right from the first try.
On the second, it was a bit more complicated: After installing ffdshow, I was obliged to re-install CoreAVC and NEO HD, reboot the PC, and so on… (Windows, my love)
But now, it works perfectly well

I’m leery of Vista. ..

LOL, aren't we all. Maybe if I have some free time later, I'll try uninstalling/reinstalling CoreAVC & NEO HD.

BTW, I don't see why people think Windows 7 is going to be such a big improvement.

I've tried the ffd approach but it didn't work, still no sound.

I'm a total video noob but here is what (seems) to work for me...

After de-installing Cineform and re-installing it gave a message that no valic AC3 decoder was found and suggested I installed ac3filter from AC3Filter (http://ac3filter.net/)
After I installed ac3filter I have sound :)

There's a new version of the CoreAVC (1.9.0) h.264 decoder, which will take advantage of nVidia's CUDA GPU programming framework. You need to have an nVidia graphics card, of recent vintage and have a CUDA-aware Windows video driver of at least version 181.69. The most recent beta driver (182.05) works fine (Just tried it).

<simplified explanation alert> What CUDA does, is it uses your GPU cores as mini-CPUs, to do calculations, in addition to providing the raw video to your display. Think of it this way. In a "normal" computer setup, the CPU would have the responsibility of the math to create a wire frame of a 3D object and the GPU would handle coloring it in. In the case of a decoder, normally the CPU would spend it's time turning the file's contents into pixels and the GPU would just worry about painting the pixels on the screen. CUDA allows the graphics card to "help" the CPU with the decoding.

There's also a new version (1.1.1) of the CUDA-based h.264 encoder, BadaBoom:

Products | badaboomit.com (http://www.badaboomit.com/?q=node/4)

The trial is full-featured and expires after 30 encodes.

There's a new version of the CoreAVC (1.9.0) h.264 decoder, which will take advantage of nVidia's CUDA GPU programming framework. You need to have an nVidia graphics card, of recent vintage and have a CUDA-aware Windows video driver of at least version 181.69. The most recent beta driver (182.05) works fine (Just tried it).

There's also a new version (1.1.1) of the CUDA-based h.264 encoder, BadaBoom:

Products | badaboomit.com (http://www.badaboomit.com/?q=node/4)

The trial is full-featured and expires after 30 encodes.

I've been playing 5DII and AVCHD clips all night with CoreAVC 1.9.0 with Windows Media Player. Really smooth, and the CPU is doing very little, it's all in the GPU - very nice. Now I have to try Badaboom.