Cheers,

Edmond

My wish list for a beachtek:

1) make the whole thing a giant grip. Not necessarily the shutter/AE controls (not shooting videos in portrait anyway)

2) built in SD or CF audio recording (nothing fancy, just build in the functionality of a 3 year old iRiver for redundant recording)

3) maybe provide Power to the camera since its blocking the battery slot.

love the LCD though

I'm happy just to see the phones pot!

Great piece of kit but is it any good with the 5dmk2 as the camera auto controls the sound levels or does this device inactivate the cameras auto level controls. Is it not just better to use a Zoom h4 and a clapper board?

According to info from Beachtek, the DXA-5D does not inactivate the auto levels on the camera.

On the positive side, audio is really not too bad considering the small mic. The addition of this device + a decent Rode / SH mic should provide reliable camera sound and the H4 / R09 can provide the backup / ambient?

Nick

personally I wouldn't trust the 5D to record audio. I would take just about any thing else (heck, minidisc recorders are dirt cheap now-a-days) for the main recording.

Great piece of kit but is it any good with the 5dmk2 as the camera auto controls the sound levels or does this device inactivate the cameras auto level controls. Is it not just better to use a Zoom h4 and a clapper board?


Nothing you stick in front of the 5D2 can "deactivate" anything on the 5D2. The 5D2 will still try to ride the gain, and you still won't be really monitoring what's actually being recorded. Not saying there won't be some value in using something like this, but personally, once you start adding a real mic and a decent preamp, I don't see that much benefit to running into the crappy audio section of the 5D2 -- just live with the 5D2 audio or go double system, anything in between seems pointless, but what do I know?

Agreed. I don't really get this Beachtek device. If it were going to a camera where you could control the input, then I get that the Beachtek would be fantastic. But since teh 5DMii will ALWAYS (unless they change the firmware) auto-gain, what's the point.
You'll have great audio at the Beachtek side, but the camera will still ride the gain on the acquisition side. Pretty useless when it comes to really quiet times and/or really loud bursts.
If or when Canon gives us manual control, I just don't understand the benefit of the the Beachtek, other than to give really good audio to a really questionable recording device (audio-wise, that is).
Am I missing something?

Ed,

I'm going to contact Beacktek about this one, If you are talking to Beachtek about this then you should really make them understand that they can't defeat the auto volume control on the 5dmkII. That said and given how far they are down the road with this prototype maybe we could make just one small change that would increase the unit's usefulness. I note like other Beachteks that it has a captive cable outputting to camera. If they could replace that with two minijack sockets which split the output signal then we could record the same signal similtaneously to a field recorder and the camera. So if the camera audio is good enough then you can just use it, but you have another copy on the recorder if not. Not ideal , but workable for run and gun.

Dan

Ed,
If they could replace that with two minijack sockets which split the output signal then we could record the same signal similtaneously to a field recorder and the camera.

Or better yet, build it into the unit. Then we're talking

If they could replace that with two minijack sockets which split the output signal then we could record the same signal similtaneously to a field recorder and the camera.Great suggestion. Use the camera audio for "quick." Use the field recorder for "quality." And when using a recorder, don't lose the audio to the camera (especially if wireless from a distance), so it's easy to sync in post.

Just got this response from Beachtek, looks very promising.

Hi Daniel,

Thank you for your comments.

Adding an additional output jack for simultaneously recording to an external
audio recorder is an excellent idea. This is also very easy and inexpensive
to do.

We fully understand the problem that the AGC in the camera causes. We are
working on a possible solution.

You can easily have access to the battery drawer on the camera by simply
loosening the mounting screw and twisting the adapter 90 degrees. The pins
on top of the adapter will have to be removed in order to do this but they
are not really necessary.

We certainly appreciate your feedback.

Cheers,
Harry Kaufmann
Product Support

I'm thinking something like the new Zoom H4n (Samson delivering Zoom H4n handheld recording device at CES - Engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/06/samson-delivering-zoom-h4n-handheld-recording-device-at-ces/)) would be a better choice than the beachtek. Decent built in mics, XLRs with phantom power, 4 track recording, etc - run the output into the camera's mic input and sync shouldn't be to difficult.

I think the Zoom recorders make a lot of sense with the 5dmkII, the only reason I like the idea of a beachtek is for the run and gun scenarios where having the controls easily accessible on the base of the camera makes more sense. I'd plan to have a recorder like the Zoom or an Edirol cabled into a pouch or my pocket to keep a low profile.

Dan

From the links of Evan.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Captain Obvious @ Jan 8th 2009 2:33PM
From what I've read of the previous Zoom recorders, their time-chip is sooo cheap that if you're recording for video, you're screwed:
( the wandering clock-frequency means if you get the beginning & the end to match the video, the middle *won't* )

Unless that's been fixed this time 'round, then the Roland/Edirol 4-track unit or the Zaxcom unit are still the ones to beat ( both have timecode, and both apparently got decent crystals/PLL chips )
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
thank you Evan for your link on the Zoom Recorder, but I found
something on the same site. I am not shure of what its about.
Can someone explain me more.
thank you.

Captain Obvious @ Jan 8th 2009 2:33PM
From what I've read of the previous Zoom recorders, their time-chip is sooo cheap that if you're recording for video, you're screwed:
( the wandering clock-frequency means if you get the beginning & the end to match the video, the middle *won't* )

I know people have had some issues with sync but I've never run into them in my limited experience with the first generation H4. I suspect they show up most when you're recording long events, etc - but considering the 5D can only record 12 minutes at a time I don't expect sync will be much of an issue.

Also the workflow I see myself using with this combo is to run the output from the zoom into the input on the camera, in essence using it like the beachtek adapter, but with higher quality backup recording that I can use in situations where the in camera track doesn't come out the way I'd like.

The 'Cheap Time Chip' or the 'Sync' problem is quite common to most (if not 90%+) digital recorders (just made that number up, but alot of them arent exactly sync with the video. It kinda drifts by a second over a 20min video clip, for my olympus recorder.

Its really easy to 'stretch or shrink' the audio from the recorder to match the video. I do it just by looking at peaks, takes less than 1 min to do if you understand what im talking about.

I have to disagree about the 'wandering clock frequency', for a 20min clip, once i sync it, it stays synced.
Maybe if you are recording for a straight 1hr, it might 'wander', but that shouldnt be a problem since no one records for a straight hour...

Cant wait to get my 5D mkII with a zoom h4 (or h4n)!!

1) make the whole thing a giant grip. Not necessarily the shutter/AE controls (not shooting videos in portrait anyway)

2) built in SD or CF audio recording (nothing fancy, just build in the functionality of a 3 year old iRiver for redundant recording)

Or some way to plug in/mount one of the Zoom uniits.


3) maybe provide Power to the camera since its blocking the battery slot.

love the LCD though

Which would be just so much cooler if the variable brightness of the display could be saved as a special setting and used like one of those lighted lens caps to force the camera to preset settings.

-MD

Just a quick comment...

Sync and drift between video and an external audio recorder (that are not physically synced or jammed) have NOTHING to do with "cheap" or "expensive" or "consumer" or "pro."

You could take an absolutely killer pro audio recorder (say a 744t), run it at 24/48 or 16/48 (in a non timecode sync just stand alone mode), and if you manually sync that with your head of your video clip, if you have a long enough clip it will likely drift significantly (say over an hour). This is pretty normal and is expected no matter what recorder you are using.

If you don't have the luxury of jamming TC, like you can't with the 5D2, there is an easy fix for extended clips (although with a 12 min. max, this may never happen), just slate the tail of the clip in addition to the head. Then sync the head with the head slate, and stretch/compress the audio clip until the tail slate is also synced.

Just saw the latest Beachtek ad on the Digital Journalist site. It looks larger than I imagined.

Dan

That looks super clunky...

That looks super clunky...

On the other hand, XLRs are a thing of beauty, audio-wise. :)

What is the difference between the Zoom H4 and the Zoom H4n? Is the old model no good for sound recording?

somebody needs to make a beachtek style adapter that will hold the zoom recorder in it AND have rails for a matte box and hedon zoom motor plus small power supply

That looks super clunky...

yeah, it should be a grip!! ugh.

On the other hand, XLRs are a thing of beauty, audio-wise. :)

Yeah, right up until the point you pad the signal and run it mini-jack style into a crappy preamp and A/D with AGC no less.

Yeah, right up until the point you pad the signal and run it mini-jack style into a crappy preamp and A/D with AGC no less.
Touché! :)

On the upside it looks like a good place to sit your production notes and spare lenses.

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't get what makes this special for the 5D2. I've got a couple of Sound Devices MixPres that are rugged, small, great preamps with pan, slate, headphone amp, meters, XLR ins and outs and a minijack tape out that feeds the 5D perfectly. What makes this a 5DII development?

My understanding is that the big difference here is that it can mostly overcome the issues with the 5dmk2's automatic gain. by mixing an inaudible tone into one or both of the output channels. perhaps it even gives you levels before the tone. you could do this with your mixpre, but youd need to add another device to generate the tone, and of course then you have to be careful about the calibration and monitoring of that tone and of the other sources which might be made more difficult by using an external tone generator. I am attempting to accomplish the same thing with an inexpensive 3channel field mixer (needs that extra 3rd channel for the tone generator). Of course editors will have trouble with this since it will likely mess with their ability to monitor levels or normalize audio unless they isolate and remove the tone from the channel(s).

My understanding is that the big difference here is that it can mostly overcome the issues with the 5dmk2's automatic gain. by mixing an inaudible tone into one or both of the output channels.
Ah, now it makes sense. They have elluded to a solution but up till now hadn't said what it might be.

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't get what makes this special for the 5D2. I've got a couple of Sound Devices MixPres that are rugged, small, great preamps with pan, slate, headphone amp, meters, XLR ins and outs and a minijack tape out that feeds the 5D perfectly. What makes this a 5DII development?
Erm, I have a MixPre too, It's great but hardly a sit under the camera option for run and gun. I have mine in a Petrol waist pack but rarely use it as it gets in the way of what I do. Also have you checked the price of one lately? certainly much much more than the estimated price for the Beachtek.

Hey Dan, it's Jim...not Erm g.

I just read somewhere that the Beachtek didn't disable the autogain which is why I asked. And looking at the picture, it doesn't look much more run and gun than the MixPre, which is pretty small for all that it packs and the sound. I think the price is pretty reasonable for the quality and features...is the Beachtek in the same league?

Jim,

Obviously we have no idea of the sound quality of this particular Beachtek at this point but the Sound devices is as good as a small field mixer comes so it would be hard to better. The Sound Devices is pretty small but there is no way I could see using it slung under a handheld camera in the way the Beachtek is.

As far as cost goes I forgot how much cheaper the MixPre is in the US compared to the rest of the world, in the UK its around $900 including tax! so it may be a viable alternative for US users.

Dan

Doesn't the 5D2 expect mic-in? Won't you have to pad the output of a MixPre to use it with a 5D2?

(Don't get me wrong here, I personally own a Shure FP24, which is literally identical to the MixPre, and I love it!)

Is this this BeachTek device capable of running "tone" to one of the stereo channels to keep the levels creeping up at least to get usable MONO sound from interviews? Why isn't it mentioned?

Thanks in advance,
T

Yeah, just for comparison for anyone who might be reading I agree for size and function it's about as good as the bigger mixers I use on location and nearly as good as some in my studio. Cost wise I know I paid well under $2k US for a pair of them....maybe $700ish each.

Regarding the mic out, the MicPre has two XLR outs that would have to be stepped down to mini jack but it also has the tape return loop that's already mini- so you have both line and mic level options.

If it's true that the Beachtek doesn't defeat the 5D autogain, then another plus to the MixPre, it's got a high quality and adjustable peak limiter that would control the signal better than perhaps the chip in the 5D2.

Right now it's all academic, been too busy running the creative shop to test specifics lately, but I'm going to set up the MixPre up with a Sennheiser and a Neumann and do some real audio testing with the 5D2 in the next day or so and I'll have a much better sense of the camera's real audio capabilities.

Doesn't the 5D2 expect mic-in? Won't you have to pad the output of a MixPre to use it with a 5D2?It will depend on what the minimum gain is on the 5D MkII. The HF pilot signal should force the 5D to turn it's gain down to its lowest level. That could be somewhere in the vicinity of line level. It certainly won't be as hot as typical mic levels.

It's not a bad solution. It will minimize preamp noise in the 5D. We'll see how it works in practice...

Regarding the mic out, the MicPre has two XLR outs that would have to be stepped down to mini jack but it also has the tape return loop that's already mini- so you have both line and mic level options.

I'm pretty sure that tape out is still line level, not mic-in level. If my memory serves me correctly, the XLR outs are "pro" line level and the tape out is more "consumer" line level. I think the tape out is something like 10 db less loud, but I don't think the 5D2 could even handle that since it's expecting mic-in -- but I could be wrong?

One other thing is, and maybe someone's already figured this out, is that the AGC is hopefully operating on LINKED channels. If not, running tone into one channel won't do anything for the other channel.

That's what I meant when I said you have both line level and balanced mic level. Traditionally pro audio gear has been a +4 world consumer or line level -10. Not having used the 5DII for any "real" audio recording I want to try some different approaches to see exactly how this AGC works (and/or doesn't). I wrote a while back when I first got it that I thought the inherent sound was pretty decent for what it was. Now let's see in real studio testing.

Sorry Dan, only just saw your message. Great idea and I'm happy they're open to it.

Ed,

I'm going to contact Beacktek about this one, If you are talking to Beachtek about this then you should really make them understand that they can't defeat the auto volume control on the 5dmkII. That said and given how far they are down the road with this prototype maybe we could make just one small change that would increase the unit's usefulness. I note like other Beachteks that it has a captive cable outputting to camera. If they could replace that with two minijack sockets which split the output signal then we could record the same signal similtaneously to a field recorder and the camera. So if the camera audio is good enough then you can just use it, but you have another copy on the recorder if not. Not ideal , but workable for run and gun.

Dan

That looks super clunky...

Interesting the difference in size of the device between the pic here and the pic on the banner of Beachtek's website. I wonder which one it is.

If you are recording to an external recorder (or recorder mixer combo) in tandem, why not just:

Run mike/mikes into external recorder/mixer.

Use line out from recorder/mixer to hook into MKII.

Use headphone outs on recorder/mixer to monitor.

I do this already at the moment but it is not that easy to set the volume controls on the fly for run and gun and if anything happens to the recorder you get no sound to the camera at all. With a mixer or Beachtek mixing is much simpler.

Dan

For run and gun I would just get a decent shotgun that mounts in hot shoe with 1/8" plug add a furry cover and you have pretty much the same setup as a ENG cam on the run.

If you need better sound most productions involve a sound guy and a lot of lavs, wireless mikes, shotguns etc. With that effort I would go to an external recorder even a MicrotrackII is decent. Nagra 4-trac much better, and use a 367, 1202 or whatever for a field mixer. Then send signal to MKII just for syncing in the suite.

I also think you could hook up any number of wireless mikes with to MKII a proper pad and some tests to achieve ENG quality sound.

I did use a Beechtec for a Panasonic EG-EZ1U years ago, I still have the unit, I have been thinking about trying it out on the MKII, when I do I will post results.

I did some audio tests with my mixpre and tone to see how the ACGs react. Here they are if anyone is interested.

Test with 1khz tone
Canon 5d Mk2 Audio Test on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/2851797)

Test with ultra high and low tones
Audio test for 5DM2 extreme low and high frequencies on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/3072099)

Hope that helps.

KELOWNA, CANADA – April 9th, 2009 – BeachTek is happy to announce their new DXA-5D XLR adapter that has been highly anticipated for the Canon 5D Mark II camera. The DXA-5D provides an easy way to connect professional microphones and other audio gear to this popular camera. This adapter brings a whole new functionality to the Canon 5D Mark II that was previously unavailable. It is now possible to capture professional sound with control and monitoring ability. The suggested list price of the DXA-5D is $379.00 in the United States. Expected shipping date is May 26th, 2009
The DXA-5D features dual transformer-balanced XLR inputs with phantom power and built-in level meters. In addition, the built-in headphone jack allows the user to monitor the audio – a feature missing on this camera. The trim controls allow the user to dial in the proper signal levels for optimum recording quality.
Most importantly, is the unique AGC Disable function which was the most sought after feature by users of this camera. The AGC Disable circuit is activated by a switch which controls the wild swings of the Auto Gain Control in the camera to reduce the hiss generated by the preamplifiers during quiet moments of recording. It works by sending a high frequency inaudible tone to the left channel of the camera. This feature greatly decreases the camera noise which has always been a problem in the past.
The DXA-5D also provides an unbalanced mini-jack input for many wireless receivers that use mini-plug connectors. There is an additional mic level output jack for connecting the adapter to external audio recorders such as the popular Sony PCM-D50 when very high quality recording is required. The LCD display shows the state of the various switches and battery life, as well as a vu meter that shows the audio levels from - 54dBu to -33dBu. This allows the user to verify the proper recording levels and eliminates any guesswork.
BeachTek is the original and most popular maker of XLR adapters for DV camcorders. The company specializes in making unique audio accessories for demanding video professionals.
BeachTek is located in Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada. For additional information on BeachTek or the products that they offer, including full specifications on the DXA-5D, visit their web site at Welcome to the new BeachTek website! (http://www.beachtek.com) or call (416) 690-9457.

Very interesting that the unit features a Mic level output for attaching an additional recorder-nice touch.

Nice to know there is a specific designed product.

Looks great. Hoping for some hands on reviews from NAB. I guess I thought it was going to be released a little sooner.

Wow, this a big step forward for Beachtek!!
Assuming the AGC Disable functions properly, I might actually buy and keep one of their product!

It indeed looks like a promising device, though from the shots I'd have preferred it to be a little bit smaller for running-around work.
On the other hand... HOW HARD could it really be for Canon to add an "AGC completely OFF, getting the correct volume is in your hands" menu option via firmware?