Sony continues to push their AVCHD camcorders and the ability to make menued discs on normal BD5/9 discs using their supplied software or the stand alone disc writers.

You mean they MARKET this possibility. Now go read the Sony DVDARCH manual. They point out these discs will NOT play on the PS3. No PS3 playback -- no real solution.

The stand-alone disc writers simply burn the AVCHD data from the attached camcorder. They are passive.

The Sony Motion Browser software is not a real NLE. It is an AVCHD splicer.

The solution is so simple -- buy a BD burner. Why are folks avoiding the obvious and looking for tricks?

The solution is so simple -- buy a BD burner. Why are folks avoiding the obvious and looking for tricks?

I own several BD burners already. What problem do you think they solve? There are still players that won't play the disks.

Steve
I am not avoiding buying a Bluray burner. I have one and that is my solution for output for all my HD video from SR11 and FX1. I agree with you why bother with DVD5/9. I was just pointing out what I perceived to be Sony's marketing push. I also believe Sony Motion Browser is an NLE, not a very good one, but it does have the capability to perform simple editing of AVCHD video and output to both AVCHD and MPEG2 with menus. I have done this before I got a Bluray burner and they play on my PS3. Just as advertised by Sony. Are they technically a BD5 or 9 ? Don't know, but they do play in the PS3 with menus.
Since Authoring with DVDArchitect 5 I have not even tried to burn to other than a Bluray disc so really cannot say if it would work or not and really have no interest in doing so.

Ron Evans

I own several BD burners already. What problem do you think they solve? There are still players that won't play the disks.

I don't know what burners or software you own, but there's no reason why BD-R discs would not play on all BD players (other than the first couple that came to market many years ago). As long as it makes BDMV movies.

"I also believe Sony Motion Browser is an NLE, not a very good one, but it does have the capability to perform simple editing of AVCHD video and output to both AVCHD and MPEG2 with menus."

I never bothered to load the Sony Browser, but I doubt you'll find much in the way of normal NLE functions: video filters, color correction, etc. As I said a "splicer" but not exactly even iMovie or Pinnacle whatever. And, as you said it is slow, which isn't exactly a positive point.

My point is if you shooting HD and spend $1000 for a camcorder, the least you can do is spend another $1000 on Vegas Pro 8c and a BD burner.

PS: Vegas Pro 8c is a major upgrade of Vegas. It, and DVD Arch 5, will do everything: 5.1 sound and menus. And, you know it will work on the PS3. It's perfect to run under Bootcamp. Just move ProRes 422 or MJPEG from Apple NLEs to Vegas.

I never bothered to load the Sony Browser, but I doubt you'll find much in the way of normal NLE functions: video filters, color correction, etc. As I said a "splicer" but not exactly even iMovie or Pinnacle whatever. And, as you said it is slow, which isn't exactly a positive point.



How come you know so much about Sony Motion Browser if you have never loaded it? You happen to be correct in that its intended use is to assemble a clip list and transfer to a disc for viewing( with menu) and consequently have a backup from the camera. NLE to me is anything that allows editing in a non linear way. The Sony software does this. IF we are going to get into the actual functions that are included in various editors that is something else all together and will lead us into deciding whether one NLE is actually an NLE based on a person point of view. I happen to own Edius 5, Vegas 8.0C and Vegas 8.1, Adobe CS3, and several other programs like DVDLab 2.0, Ulead Moviefactory, Womble, Pinnacle, Nero 8, TMPGenc Authorworks 4, etc all used for different reasons that they are good at. Depending on the particular function I choose I could eliminate most from the list. It just so happens that the particular useful functions are different for the different products hence the value in owning a number of them. Sony Motion Browser has its place. I don't use it to burn or author discs but it is used to catalog all my AVCHD videos and does so very well by folder date as well as a calendar view. Of no use for the projects I do but invaluable for the family videos and allows an immediate selection and playback of both stills or video and a very good reason to use it to transfer video or stills to the PC.

Ron Evans

The solution is so simple -- buy a BD burner. Why are folks avoiding the obvious and looking for tricks?

I can't speak for other people and their reasons, but can only offer my own thinking and rationale:

Do I really want to spend nearly $10 for a single BD-R blank disk when the content I wish to burn fits on a 20 cent disk?

Do I really want to spend 20 minutes burning a disk when I can burn a red laser disk in one third the time?

Do I really have 25GB of content to fill the BD-R disk from my AVCHD camcorder, and do I really need 3 hours of recording time?

My answers are no, no, and no......

Having spent $450 for a BluRay burner some time ago, I could also add a legitimate 4th question:

Do I really want to spend hundreds of dollars for a burner when I can be a superb 20X red laser burner for $29?

And Sony has added yet the further complication that new profiles have been defined and added over several years now, making the cautious purchaser of a BluRay burner and player properly ask the question:

Is today's purchase of a BluRay burner going to work in the next version of BluRay and beyond?

In all of the above considerations, I am very willing to consider other solutions first, particularly if they work well, are inexpensive, burn quickly, and deliver literally identical image quality.

Larry

This is an interesting discussion. Thank you very much to those who are sharing their experience here. Larry, I really appreciate all the info you've posted about the various editing/authoring tools in this and other threads.

I am disappointed to hear all the difficulties and lack of standards regarding AVCHD on DVD media. I'm assuming that the main objective here is to package AVCHD video into a convenient format which can offer a DVD-like playback experience (i.e. menus, chapters, etc.) on a TV. From the posts in this thread, I gather that burning true BD disks for playback on a BD player is currently the only way to reliably accomplish that objective using optical disks.

This makes me wonder if optical disks are really the best solution? Perhaps it would be easier to author electronic files for playback on media players like the PS3, "WD TV HD Media Player", HTPC, etc. There are some formats that can support HD video with menus (at least in theory). The big questions here are what format(s) would work best, what authoring tools are available, and what playback devices are available? I would appreciate any thoughts on this from the experts. I hope this is sufficiently on-topic as long as we limit the discussion to formats that support menus. Thanks.

Glad to help others here Bob and also learn a lot from others as well. As I imagine you may have gathered, AVCHD disks are a standard, menued, red laser format which provide navigation much the same as standard DVDs but play full 1920 by 1080 content. As this and other threads have mentioned, the players as well as some of the AVCHD authoring software are still incomplete, unstable, or both, and thus the disks being created may or may not play on your specific player. It is encouraging that quite a few software NLEs permit authoring of menued AVCHD disks on the PC, and that both set-top players from several manufacturers and also software players from several PC software vendors also play these menued disks properly.

Larry

How come you know so much about Sony Motion Browser if you have never loaded it? You happen to be correct in that its intended use is to assemble a clip list and transfer to a disc for viewing( with menu) and consequently have a backup from the camera. NLE to me is anything that allows editing in a non linear way. The Sony software does this.

I don't use it to burn or author discs ...

I didn't load it because I knew it wasn't something I would ever use for editing and burning. Sony has long given away these little apps -- think DVGate.

Bottom-line -- the software that generate AVCHD discs -- all have three things in common: they edit AVCHD natively (SLOW), they cost about $100 (buggy), and they aren't real-time (SLOW again).

And, the Sony "Browser" is a step below them in functionality. Even you say you don't use it for authoring.

I'd jump on AVCHD DVDs if Sony, Canopus, or Apple had applications that supported it. For example, iDVD. I think these big companies know Sony can turn-off the ability to playback any AVCHD video that was encoded by software.

PS: does the Sony Browser support anything beyond splicing existing AVCHD files? For example, titles, video transitions, video filters, and photos to video. Maybe I'm wrong to worry.

Do I really want to spend nearly $10 for a single BD-R blank disk when the content I wish to burn fits on a 20 cent disk?

I was at Frys yesterday and saw a 15 pack of Memorex 25GB BD for $60. Not bad $4 each. I thought they were still $20 each.

Steve
Sony Motion Browser is very simple. It allows one to set a main title and can automatically arrange menus based on each clip( start and stop) or day( uses date info) that clips were taken. There is a very limited choice of backgrounds and a choice of whether output is AVCHD or MPEG. Thats about it. So as I said earlier I like it for cataloging all the files etc but do nothing else with it. Editing is done with native files in Vegas for family video and since projects are usually over two hours these files are converted to Canopus HQ and edited with the FX1 tracks in Edius. Output either HQ or HDV from Edius and into Vegas for final audio mixing, setting of markers with names that will be used in DVD Architect for Bluray output. I use the HQ file in TMPGenc for SD encode as I think it has the best encode. AC3 audio from Vegas timeline is used for both discs.
Yes disc prices are coming down. Lately I have used a 5 pack of Verbatim at $45 Can( about $7 US each) and bought some 50G BD-RE TDK for $20Can. I used one of these to backup our Australian holiday of 5 1/2hours of SR11 video and 500 stills!!!!

Ron Evans

No doubt the cost of blank media for BD will continue to fall. I paid 6 bucks apiece for blank DVDs not too many years ago (and most of them are no longer playable due to dye contrast reduction / bleaching).

Steve's experience at Frys is the lowest I have heard of so far, and is very encouraging. I will eventually move to BD-R but not until it makes better sense economically, particularly since virtually all of my disks are 4 GB or less of content anyway.

Given the tiny spot size and 5 times as many bits per square inch of dye, I also have very legitimate concerns about BD-R longevity as well.

I have no good technical reason to believe that a surface which can't retain 4.7GB of data in an optical dye for many years will do any better or even as well when 25 GB of data is written on the same surface area.

But who knows........

Larry

How about a variation on the theme, AVCHD and Menus on USB flash drives? It works on the PS3.

Why would you want to? How about VC1 video? HD Audio? Subtitles? 24p?

I would point out that the PS3 will not send 24hz output to a supporting TV except in the Blu-ray mode, which means your files can't playback native 24hz from the internal hard drive or flash media, except that now there is another hack.

I've tried it with the PS3 using its latest firmware 2.60. If you don't care about menus, you can follow the steps in this link (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=143631).

If you want menus, you have to combine the above hack with this guide ( http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/what-happens-vegas/139676-authoring-blu-ray-menus-legacy-dvd-yes-you-can.html).

Let's assume you wanted to play back a 16Gb 1080/p24 project with 24hz output on the PS3. You could always just burn an expensive Blu-ray disk, or a rewritable at 2x speed if you have the patience.

Or you could use TSmuxer and AVCHDme to copy the folders to a USB flash drive and be previewing your collaboration in just minutes.