Sounds more like a law firm than a bunch of video nuts…

About a week into the challenge Robert, Björn, Ken and I collaborated on this film. What a blast that turned out to be! (For me, anyway.) Files and entertaining online chats were flying all over the place, often in the late night/early morning hours when normal people are sleeping.

They did all this knowing we weren’t eligible for judging, which I think is very cool. I need to add that if it weren’t for Björn’s creative input along with his work, this film would have been in big trouble. Ken and I hit enough technical snags as it was. (Got any hair left, Ken? How ‘bout Almond Roca?) :) Then there’s Robert, my new render settings hero! He made everything so easy and taught me concepts in a language I understand.

Guys, working with you was a thrill ride any gal would love--I laughed so much and enjoyed every second. You are WONDERFUL--each one of you. :) Chime in here as soon as you can.

Now, it helps if folks have seen Last Words (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkMHJUieJi4) and Soot Happens ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I_O2Dhw_XU), but hopefully this sequel stands on its own. That was the intention, anyway. That and to bring everyone another laid-back glimpse of life in the slow lane with Mason and Jeff.

http://www.vimeo.com/2704209

Very nice. My favorite bit is with the lighter :) LOL

Lorinda,


Very fun to watch! Those guys look like they are from up here!!! the guys did a great job. truly a pleasure.

I liked the crdit clips/trailers at the end.

thank you all for going to the trouble to make this!!!

Sounds more like a law firm than a bunch of video nuts…

Since you first mentioned in an email how you would list the names for the feedback thread, I'd been planning to say the same thing when I had the chance. "Have you been injured at a construction site? Do you need cash now from a structured settlement?" Our last names gel very nicely, the rhythm strikes my ear with a certain ring that's irresistable.

working with you was a thrill ride any gal would love

If I had a nickel for every time I'd heard that ... I'd owe somebody a whole lot of nickels.

Thank you, Lorinda, I enjoyed this just as much. And you're welcome for the rendering explanation; years of detailing technology concerns to less-than-geek family members has given me a much better sense of how to speak about this stuff. If you have any more questions, don't hesitate to ask!

The movie, biased as I may be, was great. After finding out what I was working on for so many hours straight, my mom watched the finished film and loved it just as much as I did! Mason and Jeff got big laughs, as did the bloopers under the credits. She's a tough, honest audience, so you can be sure you did very well.

I look forward to this time of the year just for the reuniion with "the boys". "Another fine mess you got me into, Ollie", is an old Laurel and Hardy line that comes to mind when I what Jeff and Mason at work. To all, thanks for taking the time to bring them back once again.

O.K. you guys, what a barrel of yuk yuks! The infamous geese hunters couldn't help hide how much fun they were having... even before the trailer at the end!

Very funny and creative work! The special effects after the falls were a smash hit in my book, and the way you flawlessly incorporated sound effects (geese, the falls) and the normal dialogue was no easy feat.

Glad to see everyone make it through okay! I was expecting the two to go over the falls and then the credits .... without ever really knowing what happened.

Even though there "will never be a next time" we sure did enjoy it this time!

A floating hunting shelter down the river ... who would have ever thought?

Cat

It’s nice to come here and not see comments I expect. Simple and easygoing stories like these are boring to lots of people (even me!). It’s a relief and appreciated to read such kind remarks.

Robert, I’m glad your mom liked what we put together! I know just what you’re saying; aside from my son my mom is one of the toughest critics around. Maybe that’s why you and I tend to think alike in lots of ways…except in technical things… :)

Mugurel: Where were you this time? We missed you.

Dale: Last challenge I told a fellow from Alberta that his characters and landscape could have been in Idaho! We must have a lot in common.

Chris: I thought of you and your wife and Dick Mays when we decided to do another Mason and Jeff film (it was idea #4). The boys love it that there are folks at DV Info who stand by them. However, I noticed what you wrote to Andris on his feedback thread, and I think…..I think you and I should make a New Year’s resolution that we’re going to film something wildly different from what we usually do next time! Want to? :D

Cat: I’m thinking you saw that faint smile on Jeff’s face when it wasn’t supposed to be smiling! Or maybe it’s the little twinkle they can get in their eyes. At any rate, we do have fun, and someday we may bring them back for another misadventure.

Lorinda:

I thought a mob hit piece was moving in that "wildly different" direction, but you are right. Try something new.

Hmmm. Guess I better start watching some youth oriented cable channels.... But I am afraid I might hurt myself--- about 3 years ago now, I was actually trying to do dance revolution (video game), with some youngsters, and ended up mangling my left hand in a ceiling fan.... made me swear off anything to high energy, as I am a spaz....

LOL!!! You may be right! At our ages we may really hurt something important if we try to get too wild. But I'd visit you in the hospital if you visit me... :)

Lorinda, extremely funny to watch! When I'm in a blind, there's seldom any humor present, just staring looks for those magic moments.... ...hmm next time...

Hysterical to watch the blind floating down the river, reminds me of a friend of mine (not Ole Arne) who almost did that a late spring a couple of years ago...

Overall very well done. Almost felt seasick of the tilting camcorder. The behind the scenes at the credit was a killer, I'm still laughing :-)

Very good work, Lorinda!

Hallo Lorinda.

I must say I love the hidden humor you have when you make your film.
Ther is also some odder fellow in this round how have the same humor.
It make life so easy.And I must say you make a nice film here.



Tanks fore shering.

All Best
VJV.

__________________

Well, that was a fun challenge (sry) as I learned a bit about codecs and video formats. Namely that you can actually have a QT file that is over 100MB and still be only about 2 sec long. Quite frankly, I don't know that it was worth the effort. Don't get me wrong, I loved the technical challenge of working on it but what I was hoping to add to the film, was very small compared the all-nighters spent trying to get it to work, and it still didn't. ..very well...
I should have known to offer help on something that I am such a novice on.
My apologies to Lorinda on that.

However, I loved the story, the film, the tight, in-close angle and the pathetic lovability of those two door-knobs! : ) I think an even more concerted effort to reprise their respective roles is in order, and will be very much appreciated by us all.


Lorinda, Robert and Bjorn, the real question now is...."who are we going to bill this hour to..?"

Ken, I'm the one who owes the apology! Looking back, I'm thinking there was something very wrong with the clips I was uploading to you. Unfortunately, I still haven't figured it out!

If I could have matched up the clips from you better (why on earth was the timing of the video off, as well as the color? Aaaagh!) the foggy breath segments would have been way more effective. I still like them, even if I couldn't get them right!

But I have to say that the fun and pleasure of working with you far outweighed the frustration we experienced. That all-nighter was a killer, I must admit. And you had to work the next day! But our earlier experiments and discussions had me laughing out loud.

Hope to try something again one of these days. We'll figure it out, by golly!

I got in such a hurry responding to Ken I forgot about you guys, Per Johan and Vidar!

It has been so much fun mixing UWOL and DVC. I get really tickled reading your comments because they are so fresh and charming. :)

Sorry we made you feel seasick, Per.....okay, I want to stop right here and ask you to clarify something for me. How do you like to be addressed? Per? Per Johan?

Anyway, I tried to keep the tilting to a minimum because I suffer from major motion-sickness myself! By the way, it is the combining of the two contests that contributed to the idea of stranding the guys in a blind. When I entered the UWOL challenge I couldn't believe you guys could spend so many hours in a blind waiting for something to happen!

Vidar, thank you for the kind remarks. You seem like a gentle soul who would pick out the subtle (hidden) humor, and that makes me feel good.

Lorinda, Robert and Bjorn, the real question now is...."who are we going to bill this hour to..?"

Adobe, by the sound of it. Somebody spill the beans, what exactly did you guys try that didn't work? Lorinda, what types of files were you sending Ken? Too late to help this project, but I'd love to try and figure out some sort of solution for you two, in case this situation comes up again.

Well, that was a fun challenge (sry) as I learned a bit about codecs and video formats. Namely that you can actually have a QT file that is over 100MB and still be only about 2 sec long.

The joys of file exchange, yes? If you really want to talk about file size, imagine working with uncompressed 1080 HD. 1920 pixels wide, times 1080 tall, 24 bits per pixel, and 29.97 frames per second gives you files that take up almost 180 megabytes per second. Uncompressed storage of HDV footage, at 1440 by 1080, only brings the number down to a still-less-than-reasonable 134MBps. Thank god for frameservers.

Speaking of which, I feel I owe a few credits for my end of the effects, namely the following:

Avisynth (http://www.avisynth.org), the frameserving application
Donald Graft (http://neuron2.net/), for his DGMPGDec Avisynth plugin
Pismo Technic (http://www.pismotechnic.com/), and their File Mount System
and last but not least,
Joe Lowe's Avisynth Virtual File System (http://www.turtlewar.org/avfs/)

I don't want to clutter the thread with details, but the stuff I did--amateur as it may be--would not have been possible without all of that software. The procedure was a variation on what I detail in this thread (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos-5d-mk-ii-hd/140473-intermediate-codecs-windows-users.html) from the 5D Mark II forum, with extraneous bits of info in a similar discussion (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos-5d-mk-ii-hd/139418-vegas-workflow-3.html), only with the extra steps of rendering an uncompressed Targa sequence, then bringing it into Avid Liquid to render my final HDV2 format MPEG files. Easier to set up and use than it sounds.

Attached, interested parties will find a screengrab of the schematic view from the most complicated shot's combustion workspace. You can bet I ended up making this far more intricate than a real professional would have, but whatever works. I did end up learning a lot doing this, so thank you for the practice, Lorinda!

Oh my gosh….that makes my head explode just looking at your workspace. You did a LOT of work to set those boys adrift on the river.

If I remember correctly, I sent you m2t files. I sent Björn AVIs that were rendered with the HDV intermediate codec. For some reason files in neither of those formats would work for Ken. So, I think I sent him H.264 files because they were the only ones that would maintain aspect. But what was killing me was that every time I rendered a clip for him and watched it, even before sending, the color was all weirded out (yeah, I know, weirded isn’t a word). I think we were messing up aspect ratios from the get-go and took a nosedive from there. It’s way over my head, that’s all I know.

Yeah, early on, what I remember is plain HD files (sry that's all i know AVI's I think) from Lorinda played for me with a hundred 1 px thick horizontal lines randomly shooting across the frame is constantly changing colors. Like colored organized static. I wish I could remember all the export settings/formats I tried.

Her clips she sent had some black bars top and bottom with the image inbetween a correct aspect ratio (when she viewed them) and when I was done with them, and sent them back the "bars" were thinner and the image stretched vertically a bit to fill. I never saw this effect and couldnt for the life of me figure out what she was yammering on and on about. "..it's stretched...it's stretched.." "..the hell you say..it looks fine.."
well there was 2 hours of that...

fun times..fun times... LOL

Ah it's all coming back to me now...

But who was yammering??? ;)

Now that you mention it, the aspect was wrong on the clips we did finally use. I had to crop my existing clips to match the ones you sent back....and I didn't do a very good job of it.

Sounds like fun. Ken, did you try installing the CineForm NEO Player (http://www.cineform.com/products/Downloads/DownloadNEOPlayerStart.htm)? I did that just now and was able to playback a CineForm AVI that I rendered from Vegas without any problems. It was 575 megabytes for only twenty six seconds, which isn't ideal, but the uncompressed HD version was over four and a half gigs, so it could be worse.

If I might pry a bit more, which version of what software are you using? I thought it was Premiere, but After Effects was mentioned by someone at some point, I believe. With that info I could look up supported input and render formats and maybe make a suggestion.

Uhhhh, excuse me Robert, but what did you say ???? My head is spinning a bit....

Our two favorite “maroons” are back! What can be safer than a duck blind? And yet, and yet… Many good things come to mind with your production. Your attention to detail with sound effects and the gentle rocking motion of the waves gave this whole scenario believability! And, so help me, that first shot had me convinced your duck blind was floating by on the river. Excellent After Effects work! Your lighting flattered your actor’s features and your sound was crisp, clear and professional. This movie was, in no way, boring. Because I liked these characters I enjoyed the interplay, no matter what they spoke of. And, that scream in the end had me laughing out loud! One little thing: Jeff “looked” colder than Mason, so Mason could have “acted” a bit chillier. That’s the only suggestion I have for this otherwise marvelous movie! I only wish it was up for judging!

We’re glad you liked our little movie, Hugh! And thanks so much for your help in getting us the blind! I enjoyed not telling you why I needed it... ;)

If you checked out Robert’s screen grab of the effects work he did (Combustion, btw, rather than AE) you can see why the blind on the river looked so real. He did a wonderful job with that. Consider, too, that I sent him separate clips of the rivers, the pallet, and the blind (stuck down in snow, no less!). I can’t imagine how he put that pallet under there. Any shots with them on the more placid Boise and Snake Rivers were created by Robert.

Björn created the clip with the boys going over Victoria Falls, complete with scream. I laughed out loud when I first played the file. That’s also his work with them in the crumpled blind floating (sort of) down the mighty Zambezi River. I overdid making it look like night on that one, but, oh well…

Halfway through shooting Jeff said something about Mason not looking cold enough. Mason’s reply was that he was tougher than Jeff (lol) so I left it alone.

Okay, so now Mason's a method actor, eh? I appreciate all of the difficult and labor intensive behind-the-scenes work to which your creative crew had dedicated themselves. It's amazing what can be done through cooperation! You've proven it! Well done, guys (and gal!)

Hi Lorinda,

Thank you for making my day! This was so fun to watch!
The actors did very well. Special effects were really cool.
So fun to watch the behind the scenes at the end.

Thank you for sharing.

By the way, the title of this thread makes it look like we are dealing with a Law Firm..

...And you have to admit it has a nice ring to it!

Robert already has the script for our first ad: "Have you been injured at a construction site? Do you need cash now from a structured settlement?" LOL

Trond, I am really happy that you enjoyed our movie. Entertainment is the main goal! :D

"you're gonna burn down our shelter" should have made the main movie!

Are you DVC people always so technically complicated? My head is in a total whirl about what actually went on here. The final outcome looks ever so simple but wow - files flying here there and everywhere and right around the world in 12 hours - that's some feat!

Fun movie! Well done.

Hi Marj,

I don’t think world-wide collaborations like this (on a technical level) are the norm for the DVC. But sometimes it’s fun to try something a little different, and this one was FUN!

Björn has taught me some things about Africa I would have never known, as well, so I am really happy he and Robert saw my SOS on the forum. (Ken and I had hooked up earlier.) You’re right; they put a lot of work into these effects that end up looking so normal.

Thanks for commenting! Glad you liked our movie. :)

Robert,
I use Premiere 2 for editing, but I was using AE7 for the project with Lorinda. No I didn't try that CINEFORM player. Don't quite understand what that would do for me, since I don't quite understand what exactly was broken with our workflow. Only that it was a semi-organized series of trial and error.

The CineForm player is their video decoder, which is available free of charge; if Lorinda was rendering using the CineForm option in Vegas, you'd need the decoder installed to view the files.

You may be able to save the disk space and transfer time of large intermediate files, however, because according to Adobe's Knowledge Base (http://kb.adobe.com/selfservice/viewContent.do?externalId=331840&sliceId=1), After Effects 7 does support MPEG-2 files, in several formats. It's "not recommended for import", of course, for the same reason it's not ideal for editing, but from the sound of that article it should work.

By default, however, the Vegas settings I had Lorinda use to send me the files produce .m2t transport streams, video and audio together, which the article doesn't specify as being supported by AE7. Lorinda, you could always render separate elementary streams (video as .m2v and audio as .mpa) that might work. The instructions would be the same as before; Render As, then choose MainConcept MPEG-2 as the file type and HDV 1080-60i as the template. This time, though, you'd click Custom and go to the System tab, then check the box up top that says "Save as separate elementary streams". As long as "Enable no-recompress long GOP rendering" is enabled (at the bottom of the General tab of Vegas' Preferences dialog), you'll be doing a straight copy operation, with no effect on the quality of the video. Once you're finished, send along the .m2v and see what happens.

As far as the aspect ratio, without the actual files you were using I couldn't say for sure, but remember that the source footage in this case is HDV; it's stored anamorphically, as 1440 by 1080 which with square pixels is 4:3. If After Effects, or any other software, doesn't set the aspect ratio correctly, you'll need to do it yourself. Either set the display aspect ratio to 16:9, or the pixel aspect ratio to 1.3333 (it's a repeating three, technically, but most programs only accept three or four digits after the decimal). If you've done that and it still doesn't work, I couldn't say for sure what's going on.

Excellent stuff here, Robert. As my Japanese grandma would have said, “You…smart boy, huh…” :)

I’m saving this and if Ken wants to tackle it again we’ll give it a try. Plus it’ll come in handy at other times, too! Thank you!

Good Morning,

Besides the simple pleasure from all your A-team's work I have absorbed a lot of useful information from this thread!!!!

Curiously, How big were the files you were emailing about the globe? Do they have to be win zipped (can you even do that with video?).


I can see a challenge down the road , international group challenge, where partners from within Dv/uwol group have to form a group of three, produce a video on "Insanity".

Well, any topic would do.

Hi Dale,

We had files over 100MB and used various transfer methods. Ken and I uploaded to one of his friend's ftp. Björn zipped his and transferred via Skype, and if I remember correctly (it's a bit of a blur) Robert and I just sent those huge files by Skype as well. I'll let Robert chime in with some other free methods he uses.

Your "insanity" sounds like lots of fun! :)

Yes, Lorinda's correct, the .m2t files were sent directly to me via Skype. The five .m2ts she sent (three background plates and the two elements for the blind) totaled two hundred sixty one megabytes. I was able to compress HDV2-format MPG files to send back, so the final composites were the same size. It's a good thing, too, 'cause the uncompressed targa sequences coming out of combustion for those three measly shots total over five and a half gigs. Interesting bit of trivia, that's only for one version of each shot; between the precomposites involved in this, and the various revisions I rendered of the finals, there's over twenty-four gigabytes of images on my render drive. The preliminary tests, combustion workspaces, original files and Avisynth scripts total less than nine hundred megs.

Dale, all compression, video, audio, file or otherwise, is the elimination of redundant data. Different methods can occasionally produce additional reductions, but generally once it's done it's done (try running the result of a video compression back through the same compressor with the exact same settings; the file will barely change size or quality, if it does at all). The biggest reasons to zip video and audio files is to either collect several files into one archive, or bypass a webhost's file extension-level restriction on allowed file types.

The results of my compositing effort went up on my website long enough for Lorinda to get them, but lately I've been using SendSpace (http://www.sendspace.com/) for files under three hundred megabytes. You don't need to pay to register an account, and you can upload files even without one.

I can't remember if it was this board or not, but I recently saw someone using drop.io (http://drop.io/) for file transfers. It's only up to one hundred megabytes, and I haven't used it myself, but it seems simple enough.