Is there a known issue of the videos from the 5D2 having crushed blacks? Every video I've seen exhibits this problem. Is there a workaround to it?

Yes, there is a workaround. It involves two steps:

1) Create a custom profile with low contrast, using the Picture Style Editor and load the profile into the camera.

2) Before bringing the MOV file into your editing system, process it to convert the 0-255 range video to 16-235. The easiest is to "re-wrap" the MOV file as an MP4. See this thread for details: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos-5d-mk-ii-hd/140474-re-wrap-mov-mp4-seems-do-something.html

I think if you edit with a Cineform intermediate you will avoid the issue.

I think if you edit with a Cineform intermediate you will avoid the issue.

It depends on how you generate the intermediate file. Before the machine can encode to Cineform, it must decode the MOV file. If the MOV decoder doesn't recognize the RGB 0-255 coding, then those levels will be lost in the translation.

Unless you are using Color, or some other app with a Quicktime Decoder that is known to deal with the 0-255 levels, I recommend, the rewrap method above - before creating your Cineform intermediates.

Keep in mind that the .MP4 is not supported by all NLE.

Premiere will not load them, you will have to use one of the other methods well covered on this forum.

FWIW, Vegas supports the re-wrapped MP4 files.

Is there data in the crushed blacks? Meaning if you lift the black level using the above workaround, will image information be brought out?

There is definitely data there. In some examples, the data recovered in the whites is stunning. One pic will have mushed white in the sky, while with recovery, you see blue sky and whispy clouds...

Here's a clear example:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/978000-post11.html

I just downloaded the NeoHD trial. It definitely helped a lot - a few things and they are:
Note: As my reference I’m using the video2.mov sample from dpreview…the blue suit walking near the vegetable market clip:)

I did a straight conversion from the .mov file using HDlink to a Cineform, “high” setting .avi file.

- It brought back the details from the dark areas. You can see details in his blue suit now, and the awning over the vegetables now has a brownish quality rather than the deep blacks it had and I can see lots of detail in shadows now
- It did the same with the washed out white sky, I now have some detail in the clouds, there is more contrast and colour now

overall the colour seem less saturated and the footage handles colour correction quite well now.

I guess most people are getting these results so nothing special...

BTW my scopes show this for the Cineform clip - but in the audio world they have a saying: "trust your ears not your VU meters"

Looks good, but what's the Mac solution to getting back the detail in the blacks? I've tried Mpeg Streamclip with no success.

Just a side question. I've noticed that there is a lot of aliasing and/or moire visible in that video2 sample from dpreview. Is this typical for the 5D MKII?

Pat

I've been reading around here for a Premiere CS3-friendly fix to this.

I tried Didier Perrichon's fix (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos-5d-mk-ii-hd/140058-new-workaround-quicktime-h264-problem.html) that involves using mpeg streamclip to convert the raw files (used "video2" from dpreview) to Avid DNxHD.

Tried to open it in Premiere CS3 - no dice. Crashes every time I try to view the video. BUT I tried checking it in After Effects CS3 and true enough, while the original file still exhibited clipping, the converted file had all these values back (i.e., levels histogram had no blanks). So I exported this clip from AE and voila, they worked in Premiere.

This has too many steps for my taste but for those who have both AE and Premiere, I guess it's a zero-cost alternative. Will have to do more tests though to see if rendering times will prove too onerous with longer clips.

Okay I'm confused.. is the Crushed Black and blown whites an issue with the codec ? Or an issue of the default picture parameter of the 5D2? I was under impression that it has to do with codec incompatibility.. but then I saw the sticky in this forum with would suggest it is simply a picture parameter issue..

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos-5d-mk-ii-hd/139123-5d-mk-ii-operating-tips-read-only-reply-via-sep-thread.html

Which is it?

I am also interested in a Mac solution for the crushed blacks. Anyone know of one?

Okay I'm confused.. is the Crushed Black and blown whites an issue with the codec ? Or an issue of the default picture parameter of the 5D2? I was under impression that it has to do with codec incompatibility.. but then I saw the sticky in this forum with would suggest it is simply a picture parameter issue..

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos-5d-mk-ii-hd/139123-5d-mk-ii-operating-tips-read-only-reply-via-sep-thread.html

Which is it?

It's primarily a codec compatibility issue, but you can get even more dynamic range, if you lower the contrast in the picture profile. The standard profile has an S-curve, and by lowering the contrast, the S-curve is less aggressive. You can go even further by setting an inverse S-curve in your profile.

The bottom line is that you can shoot without crushing the blacks, but you have to take action to bring out the dark details. In fact, with the low light sensitivity of this camera, it can deliver a lot more dark detail than the competition, if you plan for it.

So how do we resolve the codec issue?

So how do we resolve the codec issue?

Personally, I re-wrap the .mov file as an .m4v file in Quicktime, then I apply the Computer => Studio RGB color corrector in Vegas. After that, I render proxies using the Cineform codec.

On a Mac, you can use Color to decode the .mov files. I'm not sure the best solution in Adobe, though After Effects might be able to handle the .,m4v files and render proxies.

has anyone found that this issue only occurs in 1080p material, whereas 480p material seem to have correct levels? btw why not just create a picture style that compresses the values to fit broadcast values?

ive been playing with the picture style editor and it seems reasonably powerful despite the poor curves implementation. ive already made picture styles that push and pull 1 stop (to allow iso exposure control while maintaining control over shutter) and match my ex1's color and hypergamma curve. i may try to shoot some tests with these picture styles outside today.

Hey Jon,
You say you use quicktime? Do you use QT pro? I tried following the mediacoder thing but I couldn't figure it out. It quicktime easier/faster ?

Right now I just render to cineform for editing.

joey: So you take the original video files from the 5D2 and rendering them in Cineform's HDLink? Does that resolve the black crush issue in just that one step?

Noah: WHA??? the 5D2 records in 480P mode also? Basically very proper looking SD videO???

Hey Jon,
You say you use quicktime? Do you use QT pro? I tried following the mediacoder thing but I couldn't figure it out. It quicktime easier/faster ?

Right now I just render to cineform for editing.


Quicktime is plenty easy/fast but it's not as easy to automate (batch) as mediacoder. And you have to pay for the privilege of re-wrapping the files. I actually bought QT pro and then remembered about mediacoder. I only use mediacoder now. But then I end up transcoding all the clips to cineform hdv, and edit (and render) from those. Sure there's a bit of a generational loss, but for my purposes (web - 720p) it's not a major deal. If I start offering our stuff in blu-ray or other formats down the road I will probably go through the trouble of re-rendering directly from the source .mp4 files, but that's easy enough to facilitate with Proxy Stream (http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=582248 )

Yang ,
I put all of my originals into a 1920x1080 30P timeline in Vegas then Render to the free Cineform codec at 1440 x 1080 30P custom template. Then use those avi's to edit. I haven't noticed any quality loss but it doesn't do anything for the crushed blacks.

I can't get media coder to work, it keeps saying no disk in the drive.

Does the $30 Qiucktime pro do the re-wrapping? Also can QT pro re-wrap the clips to be able to play on the PS3?

...btw why not just create a picture style that compresses the values to fit broadcast values?
Noah,

That was my first assumption - that one could create a picture style that would change the gain and offset as needed. Unfortunately, there is no simple gain/offset control in the Picture Style Editor. The program includes a curve editor that can accept ten custom points, but the algorithm used is quite strange. If you enter a point that changes the slope quickly, the program will quickly cause areas of high gain or zero gain - it tends to create stair steps instead of smooth curves.

For The Last Outpost, we used a style with low contrast and sharpness, and we created a custom curve that lifted the blacks as much as possible without causing stair steps. The result wasn't bad, but rewrapping the MOV files, or equivalent, is cleaner, and leaves the curve available for creative use.

The Last Outpost on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/2668705)

Joey,

Yes, I use Quicktime Pro. Rewrapping is fast and simple - it's like a "save as" operation. However, not all NLEs open the m4v result.

Yang ,
I put all of my originals into a 1920x1080 30P timeline in Vegas then Render to the free Cineform codec at 1440 x 1080 30P custom template. Then use those avi's to edit. I haven't noticed any quality loss but it doesn't do anything for the crushed blacks.

I can't get media coder to work, it keeps saying no disk in the drive.

Does the $30 Qiucktime pro do the re-wrapping? Also can QT pro re-wrap the clips to be able to play on the PS3?

Joey: How long does that render take? close to realtime I hope?

Edit: Oh I just read that it doesn't fix the crush black issue... argghhh.... So is there no solution? Why did Canon implement a camera with this problem??? arghhh..

If it works in Vegas Im in.

Yang ,
I put all of my originals into a 1920x1080 30P timeline in Vegas then Render to the free Cineform codec at 1440 x 1080 30P custom template. Then use those avi's to edit. I haven't noticed any quality loss but it doesn't do anything for the crushed blacks.

I can't get media coder to work, it keeps saying no disk in the drive.

Does the $30 Qiucktime pro do the re-wrapping? Also can QT pro re-wrap the clips to be able to play on the PS3?

yes to the re-wrapping question, but I don't know about whether or not they'll play on a PS3. I've tried playing the files (straight out of the camera and rewrappered) on an xbox360 and can confirm that they won't play on the 360.

Joey: How long does that render take? close to realtime I hope?

Edit: Oh I just read that it doesn't fix the crush black issue... argghhh.... So is there no solution? Why did Canon implement a camera with this problem??? arghhh..


It's not realtime. The best route I've found is to do all of these in batches.

First, batch re-wrap to .mp4 using mediacoder to circumvent the colorspace BS (it's worth it to get it working :D) - this step is pretty fast - faster than realtime

Then batch the files to cineform hdv using Proxy Stream in Vegas. I just kick off the batch job overnight.