I am having trouble (The air is blue), trying to print to tape - (DVD recorder with firewire input). It has worked fine for the last 3 times but now I am just about ready to toss it in.

Why does Vegas 8.3 spend ages pre-rendering etc and then when you get to the very last stage of pressing the go button, ( after going through all the marigmaroll setting up the DVD recorder), and then pressing the record button it counts down and politely says "An unexpected error occurred when creating the media file"

To make matters worse, I then have to stop the DVD recorder after a few seconds thus creating a coaster or in the case of DVDRW, having to erase the data and try again.

Now even worse, when you try again, wretched V8 has to start all over and go through all the motions AGAIN with all the print to tape prerendering etc which takes about another15 mins. Why does it not save these pre-rendered files for goodness sake ? Is there somewhere where I can check to see what is wrong or where these files may be saved? I can't see any place to check what Vegas does with these files or what options I have.

I have now repeated all this palava THREE times with the same result.

In the good ole' days of Prem. 6.5 - ( sigh, - bring on the violins !), you simply played out the timeline to the recorder and "Voila" ! - No hassles, same recorder. (Sony RDR-GX7). - These days I dread making DVD's. - Who unleashed this flawed mess ?

The project is 70 mins. long and as I said before I have already done this 3 times before with no trouble with this project. I am (fortunately), using a DVD-RW and have had to make minor editing changes in Vegas each time but now this is driving me nuts. - How do you pro guys ever make any money out of this business ? - Luckily it is more or less a (frustrating), hobby with me !

RonC.

Ron? Could you please, slowly, describe your "route" again? Start from WHERE the signal is coming from and WHERE it is going to? And the points at which it comes in and out of your PC - via firewire? - to your DVD recorder?

Something, this time, is arguing with the f/w streams.

I hear your pain!

Grazie

take a look at cineform, its flawless back to tape,

Hi Ron,

In addition to the above suggestions, have you added anything new to the timeline since the last successful render? I'm wondering if you have any dodgy media that is causing Vegas to fall over. It's been a cause of frustration for me in the past - not a Vegas fault but purely down to a clip that was corrupted.

Have you changed any settings in the print-to-tape dialogue?

Have you tried rendering the whole version of your project then trying to print that to tape? Additional steps, I know, but it may get the job done.

Out of interest, is this a standalone consumer DVD recorder you are using? I wasn't aware that you could print-to-tape to anything other than DV tape.

Out of interest, is this a standalone consumer DVD recorder you are using? I wasn't aware that you could print-to-tape to anything other than DV tape.

. . and this is why I asked the question, about the "route".

And yes, you can. Of course you need to get a non-digital ie AV stream coming FROM the pc. In the past I used to send PTT via a converter OUT to a VHS deck. It meant that one has to ensure that there is no digital device is at the "receiving-end" of the stream. Within the PTT workflow IS a "Manual (no device control) . . " is selected. And THEN you have to cue it manually. In VP8c this has been subtly changed. Without powering up V7 or V6 I can't step it out here, Ian, but it does appear from memory that there IS a difference and maybe this is where our chum has go to.

However, as our chum here appears to have repeated this "performance" before, I was more than aware of the success he HAD had. And I was again wanting him to explain, step-by-step, exactly what he was doing this time that many have been different.

Now, what I am truly interested in is that WHEN this AV stream hits the DVD recorder, does the DVD rec then need to create a DVD compliant<>MPGE2 file and structure?

Grazie

Thank you all very much for your concerns.
The firewire route is stock standard, just firewire out on the PC to firewire in on the DVD recorder with a good quality cable that has not been moved since I started this operation 2 days ago. The PC is simply running V8 which I have been editing this project on and the signal is fine passing through the DVD recorder out onto its monitor.

Since the last render, I did a couple of edits but no new files were added, just tidied up a few transitions and re-synced an audio event that was 3 frames ahead. - This Audio event, like many in this project was re-worked in S/F, de-noised & EQ'd etc previously, saved as a separate file, and relaced the original clip audio. - That's how it came to be out of sync, so all I did was move it 3 frames.

However, on thinking carefully about your question Ian, I did click on "Clean Project Media" in the Tools menu, thinking this might remove unnecessary files. - At the time it did not seem to do anything and the timeline did not flinch. - Maybe this is the problem ?? Wouldn't it be nice that when Vegas gives an error message that it opens a link in the help menu so you can sought it out and also if the error message at least appeared during the count-down, NOT when it goes to playback after youv'e started the other equipment!

Apart from the minor edits which I also did on correcting previous DVD burns and were successful, this was the only thing that was different this time.

Yes Ian, the DVD recorder is a good quality domestic standalone unit which I have used for several years without these sort of troubles and firewire is firewire, it doesn't matter realy what you feed it to as long as it confirms to the normal firewire standards. This recorder also allows you to record straight from camera via firewire which I have done in the past.

Thanks again and a happy new year to you all. -

RonC.
PS. - Don't forget to look at the Sydney fireworks on your telly later. There is over 50% more this year than last year !

Yes, you're quite right of course Grazie. Sorry, what I meant to say was 'other than DV', not 'other than DV tape'- in other words I didn't know you could print to tape to burn a DVD straight off using a DVD recorder.

Long shot, Ron - try removing that audio clip you edited and see if that changes anything. I'd also remove the associated video clip just to see if that's where your issue lies. Unlikely I know, but stranger things have happened and if that is the only single thing that's changed then that would be the first place to look.

I don't think the Clean Project Media action would do anything to cause problems - I do it frequently (although I don't print to tape very often).

I'll leave Grazie to comment on the firewire side of things. His experience is far greater than mine in that area!

Happy New year to you too.

Ian . . .

PS. - Don't forget to look at the Sydney fireworks on your telly later. There is over 50% more this year than last year !

Blimey! 50% more??? if that's the case I wont NEED to switch on the telly - all we will need to do is kinda swivel our London-gaze Southwards!!

Grazie

I'll leave Grazie to comment on the firewire side of things. His experience is far greater than mine in that area!


You're far too kind, Ian . . . But I have too ask: Why is my experience greater? Got me lost there? And, quite frankly, I am STILL not convinced that internally to the DVD recorder that the DV>f/w stream is not being re-encoded to AV and thence to a DVD complaint stream? Do you see that? Otherwise what we have here is a DV stream being converted to a MPEG dvd system for re-read. Now that WOULD be something I need to understand.

Also, and here is my point, at loooong last, as Ron can record an AV stream(?) from his telly - is it an AV stream? I should have be asking this before? - then surely that same AV stream needs to be reassembled as a DVD compliant format. This would in turn require that that the conversion is already in place. Now, if there is this f/w DV stream coming in, what is the next step in the route?

Actually, thinking about it, it IS amazing that any of this stuff works at all!

Anyway, I'm still interested in Ron's solution(?). Fascinating stuff!

Hey, at the end of the day, if it works it works! It is only times like this that "one" has to know a bit more.

Grazie

You're far too kind, Ian . . . But I have too ask: Why is my experience greater? Got me lost there?

Here's why . . .

.......internally to the DVD recorder that the DV>f/w stream is not being re-encoded to AV and thence to a DVD complaint stream? Do you see that? Otherwise what we have here is a DV stream being converted to a MPEG dvd system for re-read........as Ron can record an AV stream(?) from his telly - is it an AV stream? I should have be asking this before? - then surely that same AV stream needs to be reassembled as a DVD compliant format. This would in turn require that that the conversion is already in place. Now, if there is this f/w DV stream coming in, what is the next step in the route?

I don't even understand the questions! :-)

But as you quite rightly say, all fascinating stuff. Here's to understanding it all in 2009. Cheers!

I think in future, I'll just stick with framing, pressing the RED button, editing in Vegas and having my clients come back to me.

And more of: K.I.S.S.

Grazie

Hehehe - I'll drink to KISS and to repeat clients!

Happy New Year Grazie - always good to read your posts.

Why does Vegas 8.3 spend ages pre-rendering etc and then when you get to the very last stage of pressing the go button, ( after going through all the marigmaroll setting up the DVD recorder), and then pressing the record button it counts down and politely says "An unexpected error occurred when creating the media file"

To make matters worse, I then have to stop the DVD recorder after a few seconds thus creating a coaster or in the case of DVDRW, having to erase the data and try again.

If you're going to DVD, why are you doing a Print To Tape? Instead, you'd be better off rendering to MPEG2 and AC3 and using DVD Architect to burn to a DVD straight in your computer.

Thanks again Grazie, Ian & Ted.
On re-reading your replies I get the impression (may be wrong though), that you feel that the fault is in the DVD recorder. The error comes up in Vegas, - the recorder just continues recording nothing until I stop it.

Now about encoding and KISS. This is precisely WHY, I usually make a DVD this way. - It IS so simple. Also, just a few years back when I was authoring DVD's in Ulead DVD Workshop, (with a difficult learning curve), and burning them on the PC, I had a lot of instances where they would not play in some DVD players even though they were OK on several that I have here. On talking to an elderly gentleman friend, who had presented me with a DVD of my own work with the quality as if I was playing back original footage directly into TV from my camera, it came out that it he was not into all this menu & authoring stuff, he just simply recorded his DVD's on this Sony machine via firewire !

I was staggered to say the least. He also said that he had very little compatability problems with other players. Amazingly, a short time later, another friend (who was helping me with Ulead & also had similar problems), came accros a firm that was offering these Sony DVD recorders at a third the normal price. So we all bought these recorders at a further quantity discount ! (about $600 Aust. - originally about $2K.)

This led me to do further investigation, particularly on the quality and compatability issue. Apparently the DVD recorder does HARDWARE Mpeg encoding from whatever source is selected. In fact I have never used this recorder via my TV through the analogue inputs as I bought it specifically for its firewire capability and it resides in my PC edit room. Curiously, when I first got it and was using Prem 6.5, (sigh !), I rendered my movies back to camera tape (via firewire), and then from the tape (via firewire), to the DVD recorder. With a bit of lateral thinking I thought why not go straight to the DVD recorder which I have done for years, - no problem.

To me, - partly because of my unfamiliarity with DVDA, but also having do all this Mpeg encoding stuff, - 2 pass encoding for longer jobs, plus separate audio, it is a breeze to simply output to firewire from the timeline and hit the record button ! Of course I realise that you get no flashy menus etc, but the recorder does put auto chapter points at six minute intervals on the resulting DVD and has a simple titler. This method is particularly handy with this project, as it will probably end up being authored in DVDA, but I have to get it OK'ed by the person involved, so a quick one-off should be quite simple.

This still leads me to being confused about where Vegas puts its print-to-tape rendering files so I may be able to at least save them.

Sorry about this long winded explanation but I hope this helps you to see where I'm coming from.

RonC.

If you're going to DVD, why are you doing a Print To Tape? Instead, you'd be better off rendering to MPEG2 and AC3 and using DVD Architect to burn to a DVD straight in your computer.

He wants to make use of the "ease" of making a PTT option work DIRECTLY to his DVD Recorder - period! He doesn't want menus or chapters or anything else. Added to which his DVD Recorder WILL produce 6 minutes auto "jump" points. And to my way of thinking too, this WOULD be an ideal situ - for specific EASY projects. I've understood this from the beginning.

And here's the simple schematic of the approaches:

A] Vegas Timeline > Editing > PTT > Record DIRECTLY to DVD recorder = DONE!

B] Vegas Timeline > Editing > Encode to 2 separate streams of MPEG2 and AC3 ( this IS what I do too!) > open DVDA > Search for the 2 files > Import to DVDA > Drag files to Workspace > DO NOT MAKE MENUS (why then come to DVDA?)> Prepare Disc > Setup Prepare folders > check for any requirements for re-render (the graphics of the non-Menu "Menu" > Burn DVD

So I can really understand the advantages Ron says.

Which leads me onto the final and actual finesse of this this thread - maybe!

Presently Ron has attempted to use f/w from PC to DVD recorder. This would then be a DV stream - yes? So, by a process of elimination this means he is NOT using AV from his PC to his recorder. Also, Vegas is thinking that: "As I am sending Firewire OUT then I have direct control of the deck/camera UNTIL I am told otherwise!" - there IS a option to disengage the device control and maybe that that is where he is falling over? Ron has not confirmed nor denied this. Yeah?

Now if all what I have written stands up, then we have a device, PC+Vegas, thinking that it is control of a box, the DVD Recorder, and wants to "control" it. But manifestly the DVD recorder is having none of it! So I am still thinking that Ron needs to, from within Vegas PTT, disengage control, if he wishes to use the f/w out.

Now, this leads me onto the next hurdle: The file that is now streaming towards the DVD recorder may NOT be of any use to the DVD recorder?

OK . ..

Ron says: "Apparently the DVD recorder does HARDWARE Mpeg encoding from whatever source is selected." That's it right there! And why I asked the question way back. Now, from what I am understanding Premiere COULD send a f/w stream out to the DVD recorder AND the recorder WOULD encode to the DVD platter using its inbuilt encoding hardware. But it would appear that Vegas wont. And my thoughts are these:

A] Vegas has this Device Control option, which needs to be considered!

B] The file being sent through f/w is NOT something that the DVD recorder can recognise and deal with. And until A] is explored, I wouldn't know.

Ron also says this: "In fact I have never used this recorder via my TV through the analogue inputs as I bought it specifically for its firewire capability and it resides in my PC edit room. Curiously, when I first got it and was using Prem 6.5, (sigh !), I rendered my movies back to camera tape (via firewire), and then from the tape (via firewire), to the DVD recorder. With a bit of lateral thinking I thought why not go straight to the DVD recorder which I have done for years, - no problem." - do you see that? From Premiere it was a simple f/w to f/w to the DVD recorder option. And THAT is where the rot set in. And I can understand this. I would be the same. I would be thinking: "Because I CAN do this in Premiere I SHOULD be able to do this in Vegas? So why can't I?" - I can't answer this in any intelligent way, other than asking you to "test" disengaging the device control in Vegas, and sending this to the DVD recorder. What you WILL need to do is put some black on the timneline so you ALREADY have a good stream flowing down the f/w. Then hit record on the DVD recorder. If that works, then great! However, if it doesn't then what I have implied above - the DVD Recorder can NOT read the steam coming from Vegas needs to be addressed. And certainly, the PTT "files" are not something you would then want to copy over to the DVD Recorder. If this IS the case then you have the option of DV>AV conversion somewhere in the stream. Which again leads me back to the schematic I badly outlined that was my attempt at delineating your present "encode" stream workflow:

Vegas Timeline > Prepare for PTT (render-encode)> Send thru f/w to DVD recorder (the all powerful "lure" of this whole thing!)> Encoding within DVD recorder > Realtime Burning to DVD platter

And here is my supposition:

Your success in Premier to do the same worked - yes?

But failure to repeat this in Vegas - yes?

I have to think that Premiere would then have been doing something to SEND a DV stream to the f/w input of the DVD Recorder, that that device a) Understood and b) Could encode using its hardware encoder.

And I think from your experience of wanting to repeat this in Vegas is firstly admirable. I understand the wish to repeat a simple exercise! But maybe this is NOT possible directly from Vegas. I said "maybe" I want to see you confirming you have disengaged the device control (basically you would then be treating the DVD Recorder as a dumb VHS tape machine!). And secondly, you may need to consider passing the stream thru a DV>AV convertor and ignoring your f/w.

And that's where I've got to with what you have said. If I have analyzed what you are saying incorrectly, I apologise immmediately. No problem. What I WANT to see is you being able to get what you want: Direct burn from the Vegas timeline via f/w to your DVD Recorder.

Oh yeah . .Very Happy New Year!

Grazie

Ron? I have just thought of more questions.

1] How many f/w ports do you have on your PC?

2] Are they part of your MB and/or separate f/w cards?

3] Which of these are you using to send to DVD Recorder?

4] Are you using any external previewing?

Grazie

The project is 70 mins. long and as I said before I have already done this 3 times before with no trouble with this project.

Now, I confess to being ridiculously hungover this morning, so my powers of deduction aren't too sharp but I'm reading that Ron has already successfully done this several times before using Vegas PTT out to his DVD recorder, which is why I'm convinced the issue lies in something that has changed either in the project (eg the audio clip that was changed) or in the settings (eg, as you say, Grazie, the Device Control option).

Correct me if I'm wrong, Ron, but am I right in thinking that you've been doing this with no problem using Vegas but now it has stopped working? Or were your successful attempts all with Premiere?

By the way, you can determine the pre-rendered files location on a per project basis - look in File/Project Properties and in the Video tab you can set the location. Whether they are saved/usable after a PTT has crashed I don't know, but at least you know where to look. One other thing that occurred to me as I write this - check how much free space you have on the drive that's used for the pre-rendered files. It may be giving up because there isn't enough. Just a thought.

And I urge you to try out a PTT without that edited audio clip.

Another thing you could try is trying to PTT just a short section from the middle of your timeline, the success of which would suggest it is a dodgy clip or transition elsewhere on the timeline that Vegas isn't happy with, while if it fails it would suggest that it is a setting that's wrong, or a hardware issue, or a firewire conflict.

. . but I'm reading that Ron has already successfully done this several times before using Vegas PTT out to his DVD recorder,

Well, it took me 3-re-reads, but I can't tell that this is so? What I am reading is ONLY with Premiere? It has nothing to do with your hangover. Unless that is also being piped through firewire? In which case "disengage" device control.

Grazie

Hehehe . . .

Device control was disengaged a long time ago! My wife agrees . . .

It was the "with this project" part of "already done this 3 times before with no trouble with this project" that led me to surmise that it was within Vegas.

But of course this could be the third time in my life I've been wrong ;-). My wife disagrees . . .

Ron?

Ron, the process should work fine. We do it frequently at church too. We have the computer connected to a deck via firewire. The DVD recorder is then connected to the deck. In this way we can record both back to MiniDV tape and a DVD - both at the same time if desired. It's definitely a simple way to get the video onto DVD.

One thing you might try: When in Vegas BEFORE doing the print to tape, try turning on external preview. If that works, the PTT should work just fine as well. It sounds to me like Vegas may be having difficulties establishing the firewire connection upon the PTT.

Wow guys, I'm, almost overwhelmed at your responses !

Now to clarify. - Yes, I have been doing this successfully in VEGAS for the last three times via PTT. - (Is there any other way for lossless !) It was just this last time that it all went pear shaped which to me was inexplicable. And YES, I did disengage device control on all occasions, as the DVD recorder does not accept this. Sorry, I did not mention this before.

With me it's all KISS ! -

PC - one firewire port on Mbd.
No external previewing on PC, only at the DVD recorder output to see what I'm doing.

Seeing it's now 1-15 AM I'm off to bed but I will try some of your other suggestions tomorrow.

Thanks to you all once again.

RonC.

Is the firewire cable left plugged in all the time? If not, perhaps a wire got bent when plugging it in the last time?

One other good thing to try: Turn everything OFF. Then turn the computer and recorder back on in the proper sequence (hard to say which should be done first as it varies for different systems and different devices). The last time I had an issue with PTT, simply turning the deck off and back on worked.

Thanks Edward. I will try that but I haven't moved the cable since I plugged it in the first time and I am very careful with these flimsy firewire plugs.

I also thought I can do a dummy run, IE - after Vegas has done its PTT thing and leaves you at the count down, I will leave the recorder in record pause without hitting the go button and then see if this time it starts to play through to the DVD recorder monitor after the countdown. This will fool it into thinking that all is well with the DVD rec. as firewire won't know any difference. At least I won't have to re-do the DVD after recording 5 seconds of nothing.

It's a pity that when you hit the cancel button in Vegas after you have already started, that it doesn't give you an option to start again without having to repeat the PTT Palava by having the file auto-saved. I am sure other people have experienced false starts with ancilliary equipment when using PTT. It's things like this that make a good program like Vegas a little more user friendly. Lets hope this could be addressed in future versions/updates.

RonC.

At least on the second print to tape you don't have to re-render everything that was rendered the first time. However, what you're doing is basically the same thing I'm doing by hitting the External Preview button and confirming the connection is good.

Thanks very much again Edward.
I tried your suggestion of previewing on external monitor (via firewire), and it does not seem to work, although having never attempted this before I may be missing something. Here's what I did :

In preferences /Preview Device/Device/1394-DV with output to PAL DV Widescreen.
Details Box - Hot pluggable device - Device Connected - ( so far so good), Now I played the timeline with input on DVD recorder. set to rec. pause & DV input but no result. - ?? Video plays fine from Vegas timeline within Vegas so I hit stop.

WHOA ! - As I am writing this I noticed a little monitor icon on the top left of the Vegas monitor window so I clicked it and there was a flash of the still picture on the ext. monitor where I had stopped the play back in Vegas, so I clicked it again and Voila !, it now plays on the ext. monitor. - I am completely baffled as all this should have done was to turn the thing off and on. - ??

So now, will it record out via PTT ? I did a dummy run without pressing record. It worked, no error message from Vegas. I repeated this operation & pressed record on the Vegas countdown. IT IS NOW WORKING !!

Of course for the final DVD result this will be in about an hour, but I don't think there will be any problems at the recorder's end.

What on earth could have caused all this hassle, as I have done absolutely nothing to the Vegas timeline & PTT procedure since it failed on the last attempt many days ago, yet worked flawlessly for several days before that and for three times. - Same timeline, same procedure, same ext recorder permanently plugged in. From all my previous problems it appears there was a glitch in the PTT rendering files in Vegas, BUT WHY? - Maybe like me, it just needed a rest !

RonC.

Congrats, Ron! You got there in the end!

Yeah, if the Print To Tape works, the External Preview should too. Your DVD recorder may not need to be in record mode for external preview to work. I'd try it just set to DV input and see if it works. I do like confirming the firewire connection using External Preview before doing the actual PTT, though.

Thanks again to all of you, particularly Edward with your wealth of experience. It looks like the verification by firewire preview did the trick or at least it is another way of verification.

The result was OK but I now have to do it again because I had a fader not completely closed for a few minutes about half way through!! - Just a minor annoyance, but that is me, at least I know the reason.

Curiously now again, after thoroughly setting up the "Preview in external monitor" (via firewire & it showed device connected), it STILL DID NOT WORK, until I clicked on the little monitor icon at the top left of the Vegas monitor window. - (No mention of doing this in Vegas instructions). Once I did this & verified it was playing OK externally from the timeline, I then went back to the PTT menu and all is now working. Perhaps this extra verification & step should be in the Vegas instructions to save others all the drama and frustration I have had over this.

Case closed !!

RonC.