So, my boss gave me the JVC GY HD200u as a Christmas bonus. It is all mine. Which means I'm totally responsible now for all equipment.

I wanted to get some filters for it. Specifically, 4x4 filters. Right now, I have a Tiffen Black Diffusion 1, and a Tiffen UV filter. What other ones would you recommend? I was thinking about picking this kit up Cavision | Set of 4x4" Glass Filters | FTG4X4SET | B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/380660-REG/Cavision_FTG4X4SET_Set_of_4x4_Glass.html) but don't really know anything about it. For instance, some of the filters seem to be only colored on one half, which seems strange.

Thank you all again for your help.

Jason

The "coloured on one side" means it's a graduated filter. The effect gradually transitions from effected to clear. This is used a lot for affecting skylines without affecting grass and/or people in the frame. As well, there are as many applications of a graduated filter as there are people using them.

Ahh! That makes sense. Thank you very much for your reply.

Hmm. Another question, I have a matte box for the camera that holds two filters. Does it matter much which order I put them in?

I think you're approaching this the wrong way, get a filter when you come across a problem that needs a filter to solve it!
So if you shoot landscapes and have burnt out bright skies get an ND grad, if you need to remove reflections get a polariser etc. Sounds like you're wanting to use filters for the sake of it.
Steve

You might be right. I think they are really cool and love them for my still cameras. Hmm. Maybe I'll pass on it for now.

Depending on what sort of work you're doing, in general filters tend to look very gimmicky and naff! Even things like ND grads need to be used carefully so as not to look obvious, the effect you go for is that it's no noticeable that a filter has even been used>
Steve

Hmm. Thank you again. Is there a video (preferably free) on using filters to show what the effects look like for video?

A polarizer always comes in handy when shooting exteriors. It darkens blown out skies and makes greens and reds really pop. It also cuts reflections on windows, etc. Even when it's not rotated to polarize light, it functions as an ND filter which the JVC really needs when shooting in bright exteriors, as the built in ND filters aren't enough for me. It's not always appropriate or necessary, but if you want vibrant colors in your exterior shots, it really works.

BUT don't overdo it, even polarisers can look naff on wide angles particularly, as you get uneven polarisation so the centre part goes darker than the edges.
As for something showing the effects, you might find comparisons on some of the filter makers' websites, try Tiffen, Lee, Schneider etc. Ryan Avery from Schneider Optics is active on DVInfo, he may be able to help.
Steve

Thank you very much. I appreciate the advice and will begin having a look at the sites for more information.

The nice thing here is that you have a matte box, which makes using polarizers much easier than using the screw on type. Much quicker to "pop" a 4x4 filter into the holder and start shooting than having to remove the sunshade, screw the filter on...

I am noticing that already. It seems to be a much better solution.

Does anyone have any experience with the Cavision 4x4 filters? They are a LOT cheaper than the others.

Are they resin or glass? Bear in mind that the resin ones are much cheaper but they do scratch. I used Lee resin grads for quite a while, but after having to replace them every 12 months or so I decided to get some Tiffen glass ones (£270 each!!!). They didn't scratch and were great - until I lost them!!! Am going to try some Formatt ones soon I think as they are cheaper and more local to me here in Wales.
Steve

They are actually glass Cavision | Set of 4x4" Glass Filters | FTG4X4SET | B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=cart_accessories&A=details&Q=&sku=380660&is=REG)

So I'm going to get them and give it a try. Hopefully they will be at least marginally decent.

Blimey, that is cheap. 6 filters for the same price as 1 Tiffen! Let us know what they look like.
Steve

So, my boss gave me the JVC GY HD200u as a Christmas bonus. It is all mine. Which means I'm totally responsible now for all equipment.

I wanted to get some filters for it. Specifically, 4x4 filters. Right now, I have a Tiffen Black Diffusion 1, and a Tiffen UV filter. What other ones would you recommend? I was thinking about picking this kit up Cavision | Set of 4x4" Glass Filters | FTG4X4SET | B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/380660-REG/Cavision_FTG4X4SET_Set_of_4x4_Glass.html) but don't really know anything about it. For instance, some of the filters seem to be only colored on one half, which seems strange.

Thank you all again for your help.

Jason

Jason,

You certainly have the option to buy whatever fits your budget. However, keep in mind that to get the full HD quality you have in your camera, you need HD quality glass across the board from the lens to the filters you use. This means you need water white glass. We offer all of our filters in this grade of glass and so do a few other manufacturers however not the ones you are currently looking at. Something to keep in mind.

Check out our starter kit which has most everything you need. The video is linked as well. If you don't think you need all 5 in the kit, they are available for seperate purchase.

Century DV/HDV Filters - Schneider Optics (http://www.schneideroptics.com/Ecommerce/CatalogSubCategoryDisplay.aspx?CID=1431)

Schneider Optics (http://www.schneideroptics.com/century/filters/dvd.htm)

Whatever you do, definitely buy a Polarizer and some ND filters.

IMO, don't cheap out on the following components of your video system; Tripod, Lens, Filters, Audio. Anything else is fair territory for lower quality items.

What my brand of filter does and known info on other brands (good or bad) is all the advice I can offer. The community here will chime in with suggestions of brands and what works for them.

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics

There you go Jason, I told you Ryan was yer man!
Personally I'm not 100% sure just how vital the type of glass used in the filters would be, coatings maybe. For example Ryan if you shot a test on say an F900 with one of your ND filters and a cheaper "non hd" one side by side, and then viewed it on a big A grade monitor would you expect to see a noticeable difference, and if so in what way and how much?
Steve

Jason, I was looking into the Schneider filters as well and when I get my matte box, I will be picking up either the Starter set or a hand picked array myself.

OK, thank you. I will have a look at them and see about getting some money together to purchase them.

The Cavision filters you mentioned are "crap".
If you want to use crap filters, buy mine and save a little money since I don't use mine.

Do yourself a favor, learn what each filter does & when it should be used & when it should not be used. Rather than spending your cash on toys that you may never end up using, or end up using on everything you shoot making your video look like.....

From my personal experience:
- A polarizer is a GREAT tool to have in the bag
- With the JVC, I'd personally like to have a couple of different strength ND filters in my bag as well
- If I'm going to carry ND around, a graduated .6 ND would come in handy
- Frosts and mists - PERSONALLY I'll add treatment like that in post - Will it look the same? No but I have more control and you can't "unmist" something

There you go Jason, I told you Ryan was yer man!
Personally I'm not 100% sure just how vital the type of glass used in the filters would be, coatings maybe. For example Ryan if you shot a test on say an F900 with one of your ND filters and a cheaper "non hd" one side by side, and then viewed it on a big A grade monitor would you expect to see a noticeable difference, and if so in what way and how much?
Steve

Glass quality affects the resolution of the final image. Clarity of the glass is only true for resolution. Coatings facilitate light transmission but really are there for anti-reflective properties. Anyone who talks more about coatings is talking about reducing negative effects of the lower quality glass. Coatings are necessary and the type is very important but only if you have a good base to start with.

The apparent resolution that would be noted on the monitor would be tough to see unless looking at fine details. The real question with ND filters is how "grey" they really are. If you do not a have a truly neutral grey then the camera white balance will be off across the board. If you place any ND from another manufacturer on a white piece of paper and compare a Schneider next to it; you will see which one is truly grey. Of this I am 100% confident. The same can also be said for polarizers in terms of efficiency.

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics

From my personal experience:
- A polarizer is a GREAT tool to have in the bag
- With the JVC, I'd personally like to have a couple of different strength ND filters in my bag as well
- If I'm going to carry ND around, a graduated .6 ND would come in handy
- Frosts and mists - PERSONALLY I'll add treatment like that in post - Will it look the same? No but I have more control and you can't "unmist" something

Shaun,

Good point about mist and frost filters. Post can be useful for this but you do lose a significant amoung of eye detail. I often tell people to use a very light frost filter (1/8 or 1/4 max). This way the effect is so slight that it does reduce high frequency details but doesn't over soften the image to where somebody thinks it looks filtered. Then start stacking on your post for that softened look. Of course if you know the level of softening you want for sure then go for the gusto and throw in the proper level of filtration to avoid over softened look that post provides.

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics

The apparent resolution that would be noted on the monitor would be tough to see unless looking at fine details

That's kind of what I thought, not 100% true to say that you need "HD" filters for HD cameras.

The real question with ND filters is how "grey" they really are. If you do not a have a truly neutral grey then the camera white balance will be off across the board

Couldn't agree more, and there's nothing worse than even a slightly off-colour ND Grad, when as I said above you're trying to use it so you don't even notice it.

Thanks again for your expertise Ryan, I might just take you up on the "Schneider ND Challenge"!

Steve

Ryan.


Don't forget to mention the infra-red contamination problem with some brands of ND's.

Well, the Cavision filters arrived.

I spent the weekend comparing them with the three Tiffen 4x4 filters I have shooting primarily outdoor shots. They are not bad. At one time they may have been junk, but it seems their quality is up to the point of fairly decent. They seem to block a little more light than the equivalent Tiffens, and the polarizing filter while not bad isn't that great, for roughly 45 dollars it is actually pretty good.

The gradient filters are not that abrupt in their change. So over all, while not the best filters they are more than decent and will suit me for some of the more interesting shots I'm doing.

So now, I think I'm going to invest in a couple of really good filters. Either Tiffen or, as I am now leaning thanks to their input, Schneider filters for interviews. Specifically, it is for the head of a company. What do you all recommend for an interview, indoors with great lighting, to remove any facial blemishes? Right now I have a Tiffen Black Diffusion 1 but it seems a little strong.

Oh, and what kind of difference would I see with gold diffusion versus black diffusion?

I do not filter on the camera much anymore now that I have Magic Bullet. I like doing any kind of correction in post if at all possible. It is cheaper and can be controlled more. I shoot as clean an image as I can and then do everything in post.

A polarizer and graduated ND and needed items, but for diffusion and the like, do it in post.

Daniel Weber

What do you all recommend for an interview, indoors with great lighting, to remove any facial blemishes?

I recommend flatter lighting (1 stop key to fill ratio or less) with soft light sources. Also, if you have time and a willing participant ahead of time, try playing with the skin detail settings in the camera rather than adding filters, IMHO.

Jason is obsessed with filters.

You can do an enormous amount in post. If your willing to spend the time with it, you can turn wrinkles and blemishes into wonderful skin with some editing and proper lighting. For the filters, unless you want something really different, don't go beyond .5 for diffusion. That way your image stays really intact for post work.

Well, the Cavision filters arrived.

I spent the weekend comparing them with the three Tiffen 4x4 filters I have shooting primarily outdoor shots. They are not bad. At one time they may have been junk, but it seems their quality is up to the point of fairly decent. They seem to block a little more light than the equivalent Tiffens, and the polarizing filter while not bad isn't that great, for roughly 45 dollars it is actually pretty good.

The gradient filters are not that abrupt in their change. So over all, while not the best filters they are more than decent and will suit me for some of the more interesting shots I'm doing.

So now, I think I'm going to invest in a couple of really good filters. Either Tiffen or, as I am now leaning thanks to their input, Schneider filters for interviews. Specifically, it is for the head of a company. What do you all recommend for an interview, indoors with great lighting, to remove any facial blemishes? Right now I have a Tiffen Black Diffusion 1 but it seems a little strong.

Oh, and what kind of difference would I see with gold diffusion versus black diffusion?

I would not use anything more than a 1/4 strength of any "black" filter. Our Black Frost is good for this use. Most shooters use either 1/4 or 1/8 strengths.

Remember that there are three parts to diffusion filtration.

1) Resolution. This is the HD Classic Soft filter which effects only the resolution of the image creating two planes of focus on the image while not affecting eye detail. It accomplishes this by having small micro lenses which focus some of the light at one plane while letting other light through at the normal focus. This is a truly an exceptional affect and the single most requested diffusion filter in Hollywood.

2) Contrast. This is the separation of black vs white tones in the image. Certain filters will affect the black levels or the highlights. A good diffusion filter which affects contrast will create a soft glow to the image as well as affect high frequency details. The Black Frost filter will do this without overly affecting your black tones (does not make them "milky"). We also offer our Digicon filter which will reduce highlights by one stop thus avoiding the dreaded blown out clouds or hot lights as well as increase black levels by one stop gaining back your no detail blacks.

3) Halation. This is the affect where highlights have a blooming affect and everything looks kind of dreamy. White Frost filters accomplish this look.

Overall, a bad diffusion filter (either optical or in post) will affect all of these aspects at once. There are several out there that do this including post production filters. Softening filters that employ a screen will affect more than one of the three parts of diffusion and not give you the controlled look you want.

Schneider offers each type of filter specifically for the look you are going for. Most people want to affect only resolution which will in turn maintain eye detail and not make everything over softened; hence they use the Classic Soft. You can do this in post with hours of work. Or you could just throw a filter in your matte box. Either way it can be done.

Ultimately, it is all about image control. How you choose to do it is a personal decision but filters, if used properly, can save you a ton of time and effort. Poor filter technique, either in post or optically, can lead to unprofessional footage.

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics

Well, the Cavision filters arrived.

I spent the weekend comparing them with the three Tiffen 4x4 filters I have shooting primarily outdoor shots. They are not bad. At one time they may have been junk, but it seems their quality is up to the point of fairly decent. They seem to block a little more light than the equivalent Tiffens, and the polarizing filter while not bad isn't that great, for roughly 45 dollars it is actually pretty good.

The gradient filters are not that abrupt in their change. So over all, while not the best filters they are more than decent and will suit me for some of the more interesting shots I'm doing.



Wait till the sandwich starts to separate in areas on the Cavision filters, A problem they are known for!
But, if the product you deliver for your clients is only considered "fairly decent" then the Cavision filters should be just fine.

I am not affiliated with Schneider Optics, but their Multi-Coated Filters are a cut above the Tiffen filters you judge by.

And if anyone asks me about filters I'm going to refer them to DVInfo and a search on Ryan Avery as there's a whole tutorial contained within these pages!
Steve

Ryan.


Don't forget to mention the infra-red contamination problem with some brands of ND's.

Bob,

Good point except you are missing where the problem really lies. The IR contamination problems experienced by Sony EX and RED camera users are a result of an inefficient IR filter at the sensor. ND filters that are off in their color mix by just a few tenths of a percent can lead to worse IR control on a small level when stacked. A good extremely dense ND (1.5 or 1.8) can control some of the IR light contamination but not all.

Using an IR/ND combo filter can negate this effect but only if you have a camera with this problem. I would love to sell everybody the much more expensive IR/ND filters but if you don't have a camera that has the IR problem, you don't need it and it will just cost you more. Also IR/ND filters reflect IR light so if you put them in the wrong place in the matte box (behind any other filter) then you might suffer from internal lens reflections and other imaging problems. IR/ND's work great if you use them properly for the right purpose with little negative effect. I highly doubt that everybody will need one of these in the future unless camera manufacturers continue to produce cameras with this issue.

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics