Would love to hear feedback from HPX 2000 owners on their experience with the 2000. Also what camera they moved up from? My company shoots with EX1 and Flash XDR which is a great combination. We are looking to upgrade for a few reason and still use the XDR. The 2000 has been highly recommended by a shooter I respect.

I think with the HPX2000 one of the best features is the codec, so using the XDR would be pretty pointless. DVCPro HD is good anyway, but if you put in the AVC Intra board it'd likely be better than the XDR even at max quality. The sensor is only half the pixel count of the EX1 though. I have used the 2000 (well 2100 in the UK) and liked it a lot, especially slomo was great, but do you want to live with a 720 camera over the next few years?
Steve

Thank you Steve for your comments.

I have never used DVCPro HD but have heard it is a great codec for fast moving objects while shooting. AVC Intra board would make sense in all the Panasonic cameras to me. The smaller sensor size of the 2000 to the EX1 could be an issue. The EX1 has a great picture and with XDR it is wonderful. My research in going to 2/3” is to keep a few of my high-end clients coming back. Also a few jobs have been lost due to my current setup. Yea I know it is hard to tell the difference i picture quality but it is also hard to convince a possible client that it works fine. These type of client pay the difference for the right gear to meet their expectations.

As for 720p over the next few years well, hum probably not. But the next step to get native 1080p with Panasonic is the 3000 correct. I have to check that to see if the 2700 is 1080 native. But both the 3000 and 2700 push the budget too high since the camera is only 1/2 the purchase price.

Again thank you for your input much appreciated.

The 3000 and 3700 are 1080, while the 2000 and 2700 are 720, though they will do 1080 via up-rezzing in camera, but still from 1 million pixel chips. By all accounts the 3000 is stunning. Regarding the 2000 vs 2700 it seems that once you've paid for the AVC board on the 2000 there's not that much price difference and the 2700 has variable frame rates plus 10 bit processing and AVC built in.
Steve

Thanks Steve 3700 would be a very nice choice but the extra 20K over the 2700 puts it outside my budget at this time. I will keep researching and take another trip soon to AbelCneTech once I start to narrow things down a bit more. Until then shooting with the EX1 and XDR is very nice.

I second all the good things being said about the 3000/3700, but if you feel that's too expensive, and still want a 2/3" camera with 1920x1080 sensors and recording mode, then you may like to check out the PDW700 (Sony) and the GFCAM from Ikegami.

Thanks David the 3000/3700 are out of my budget but reading about the 3700 wow it would be very nice to own. The PDW-700 is square in my sights and on my short list. Surprised that the 3000 will not do overcrank using 720p as a option. I do shoot a lot of slow motion on the EX and like the 720p 30p/60p mode. Also too bad the 2700 does not shoot 1080 native and have a higher pixel count. Would I notice? Hard to tell.

I have taken a brief looks at the Ikegami cameras but do not know much about them. I did read where a camera operator who shoots for the Red Sox team used one and did not like it at all. But that is one opinion on a very special type of shooting. I will try and learn more.

Regarding the 2700 being only 720 native, I have heard from others (and would judge from my personal experience) that the in-camera uprezzing is so good as to render it nearly indistinguishable from the 3700, especially if going to broadcast (non-theatrical). Add to that the variable frame rates and greater light sensitivity of the 2700 vs. 3700 (I believe it's a stop faster) and I think the 2700 is a worthy alternative to the 3700. Not to mention the cost savings.

Peter

It obviously depends how you're viewing it but I'd say that's total nonsense, I'm sure on a big HD screen and certainly in cinemas the 3000 would blow it out of the water. It's one of the few cameras that Alan Roberts at the BBC had virtually nothing bad to say about the imaging!
Steve

Hey Steve,

This was a Panasonic rep making the comment regarding the comparison b/t the 2700 and 3700. I think he was probably making the comparison in a more subjective sense (I have no doubt there are significant differences b/t the two in many ways). I think one advantage of the 2000/2700 that often gets overlooked, however, is the light sensitivity.

Peter

True, but of course the extra light sensitivity is only a function of having pixels twice the size (more or less) 'cos there's only half as many of them on the same size chip!
Steve

Interesting I know the 2700 is a great camera. But Steve makes a great point in the second post about living with native 720p for the next few years. With this type of investment I want to be happy with the footage for a few years.

Are there any reviews between the 2700 and the PDW-700? I would expect the two to be direct competitors even though the 2700 is more money. Not trying to put Sony vs Panasonic in this thread just trying to learn as much as I can to make a some what educated decision.

Not sure they are direct competitors really, though I know what you mean. There's quite a difference between disc and P2, and I think one would suit some people and the other for others. Other big difference of course is the chip, and with the 2700 you're always stuck with 720 or an up-rezzed 1080, while the 700 does proper 1080 and a down-rezzed 720 for when you need 50/60P.
Having said that I know at least one person who did look at the images side-by-side and said they preferred the overall look of the Varicam - very much the same situation as the BBC folks when they were looking at cameras for Planet Earth and the like, many producers preferred the image of the original Varicam to the Sony 1080 cameras on a purely subjective, visual basis.
I do think that the AVC-Intra codec would be a big plus, especially for fast moving, complex images though.
It's a tricky one, and they were the 2 cams on my shortlist, but just couldn't bear parting with that sort of money for what still has to seem a bit of a halfway resolution camera (extended definition rather high def as they say). Plus, I do really really like the disc system.
Steve

Thank you Steve,

I thought you went through the same process as I am with regard to research. You are bringing a nice clear picture to my research and I appreciate the help.

Did I read that you have a thread about lens going for your 700?

Hi Paul,
Yes there are a few lens threads actually, I've been sticking different HD and SD lenses on the 700 and looking at 200% crops in FCP.
At first I thought the SD lenses were pretty good, but the more I look the more they do seem a little lacking - BUT we are talking about big crops and careful looking, my guess is that on regular HD screens you'd probably not see much difference. Do a search for posts by me and they'll all come up. I've tried Canon HJ17, 21, 22, 40 etc., and some of the Fujinon too.
Steve

Cheers Steve

I think Steve's lens test have been very interesting and they are worth a look. If you were getting the 2700 I can't really see any reason why a good SD lens would not be adequate. For the 700 the lens is often the limiting factor for picture quality. Primes on a 700 look stunning!

Thanks Alister I had a chance today to look over a few of the lens threads, I will continue to dive in. Very interesting how a high quality SD lens will cut it with the 2700. Is that Primes or DigiPrimes or does it matter? You shoot with both cameras correct?

Alister have you used a 5mm or 9mm prime on either camera? Interested to see any examples if possible. Always appreciate you opinion.

Merry Christmas to all

Let me say first that I don't mean to hi-jack the thread. Secondly, I do NOT own a red and third, I've been renting P2 cameras for the last year for my video production company. I am a huge fan of the P2 technology and workflow. Anything tapeless is great in my book!!! My problem with Panasonic is their pricing and lack of innovative thinking. They've recently introduced the long awaited P2 Varicams one of which is "handicaped" by a 720 chip and the other more expensive version is handicapped by max. 30fps. Give me a break!!! For over $40K you'd expect more... Consider most of us don't even spend that on a vehicle or even mortgage payments in a year.

The red system is designed to be constantly upgradable (by the user). When the first batch of reds started shipping it could barely do 60fps(somebody correct me if I'm wrong). Now, a few firmware updates later, they are already at 120fps and climbing. How many people actually use UNDER 24fps?!

It cost under $20k for the red body BUT by the time you outfit it with all the required accessories including lens you are in the region of the HPX3000 ($40K) and WAYYYYY under the $60K for the HPX3700. Bear in mind too that the 2/3 inch cams don't come with a viewfinder. You'll also need a good lens*, P2 cards 16,32,64Gb (msrp 900,1650,2600 resp.) AND a bigger tripod (unless you're using a 150mm system with your EX1) a mattebox for sure if you're shooting outside so you can either use filters or shade the lens from glare etc. So the investment in a 2/3inch system doesn't stop with the purchase of the camera body.

*A good lens is the first link in the chain toward achieving pleasing images regardless of the body that comes after the lens. Theres been talk about using SD lenses on HD cameras but I'm not convinced thats a feasible way to go. You are likely to hear that manufactures are just using hype to sell their higher priced "HD" lenses. Think about it, is Canon or Fujinon so strapped for cash that they need to trick us into buying a HD lens vs a SD lens so they can make more money?
You won't buy a car and take the tires off and replace with 4 spare-tires (donuts we call them). Although they get the job done of moving the car from point A to point B they will totally limit what your car is capable of doing.

Last words: (Another car example)
If you had a choice between a Honda with all the latest technology, like power windows, power steering, gps, great gas mileage etc and a Mercedes without any technology, so no power windows etc and $100 per tank that only lasted 3days, which one would you choose? Would you pay the premium that's associated with the Mercedes name or would you pay for the Honda that has everything you need and more.

Like Honda and Mercedes, Panasonic and Red make great products. It all comes down to how far your money is going to go in the end. Red has future-proofed their camera by allowing it to shoot 4K all the way down to 720p whereas Panasonic is still releasing 720p cameras.

Choose wisely as this is a huge investment. As with any type of investment you want that three years from now your ROI far exceeds your initial investment. Either way they are all great cameras, its up to you to make the magic happen...

Ryan Skeete

Some good points Ryan, but just bear in mind that the RED is in a lot of ways not directly comparable to the regular broadcast cameras, there are pros and cons to each.
Don't know where you've seen the Varicams, but dealers here certainly do include viewfinders with them.
Steve

Ryan always nice to hear a different point of view to open my thought process. I have looked at the Red One and it is still on my list.

Steve, Good day to you mate. How was christmas in Wales?

I was referring only to the Panasonic MSRP and what they have posted on their website (US). None of their pro bodies come with a VF according to their website which adds another $3500 - $5000 USD. Now street prices are a different story and if a dealer includes a VF then thats even better! But with all things video, its always best to over-estimate and the MSRP is a good starting point.

Regarding the red in ENG configuration, RED sells a B4 adapter/mount which will allow the use of 2/3inch lenses instead of PL-mount lenses. A viable alternative, don't you think?

Ryan Skeete

Oh, it's not the lenses that's the problem - in fact if I could get away from using B4 lenses I'd be delighted! It's the operation and workflow (plus availability - talking of viewfinders, I wonder what the delivery date for a RED VF is now - it was certainly pretty damned long when I had a reservation on a camera!) The camera takes 90 seconds to boot up for one thing, then there all sorts of reliability question marks, limited dynamic range, and a very specialist post processing situation. To my mind it's still very much a work in progress.
I must say though, the new lineup of products looks amazing - in theory!
On the Varicams, how are your prices looking over there, for the 2700 it's £21000 including plate and VF here, which to me sounds pretty reasonable, not far off the price of a Sony PDW700 and less than a 790, though of course you've got to factor P2 cards into that.
Steve

Steve that is very close to the price in the US. Too bad the 0% is over at the end of the year. Would be nice if Sony offered a low rate on 24 month purchase. Cash is king and it would be nice to hold onto as much as possible.

Ryan a lot of the options I already own but I agree the camera is only 1/2 the purchase price. What Panasonic cameras do your rent?

Ryan a lot of the options I already own but I agree the camera is only 1/2 the purchase price. What Panasonic cameras do your rent?

I have rented the HPX500 on several occasions over the last year. Like I said before, I truly dig the P2 workflow but the image quality of the 500 is nowhere near a Red (which I haven't used) or any higher-end P2 cams. It does the trick for the kind of projects I do.

I have a project coming up soon that I would love to try out the red on. I would also like to try the HPX3000 with a PRO35 adapter and some 35mm lenses but alas, that combo is a bit more expensive to rent vs a red from a local renter. So we'll see which one I end up going with.

Ryan Skeete

On the Varicams, how are your prices looking over there, for the 2700 it's £21000 including plate and VF here, which to me sounds pretty reasonable
Steve

I might have to move to where you are. 21000pounds (i cant find the pound sign arrrrrrrrg!) is the equivalent to about $30k USD and about $37k CDN which is considerably lower than the MSRP of $39,950USD OR $40K CDN. I have been quoted close to $50k from a local Panny dealer for:
HPX2000
AVC-Intra board
Canon HJ lens
32Gb P2 Card
VF
Tripod adapter


It sounds like you are getting a great deal over there.

Ryan Skeete

Depends what HJ lens you've been quoted for, some of them are more than the camera, but typically you'll be looking at £10-15000.
I'm still not sure why folks want a Pro35 etc., adapter on a 2/3" cam, why not just shoot wide open, surely that's limited enough depth of field for anyone?
Steve