Hey guys,

I want to know how the quality of the footage the EX1 gives compared to the Panasonic HMC150? I know both are totally different cameras, codec, price, etc.. But there's one thing they have in common, tapeless.... which is something I'm looking for in a camera.

I know the EX1 is 1/2" CMOS and HMC150 is only 1/3" CCD.

How good is the EX1 footage compared to the HMC150?

Thanks!
John

How good is the EX1 footage compared to the HMC150?

In a word - better. But it should be, the EX costs about 50% more than a HMC150 - you get what you pay for. If you can afford it, get the EX, if you can't the HMC150 is still a good camera.

The higher native resolution of the EX doesn't just mean sharper pictures, it means it can be used with less detail enhancement, yet not look soft. It's not just picture quality. The EX has true manual controls, the 150 has servos, and the EX allows off-speed shooting, the HMC150 doesn't.

...allows off-speed shooting, the HMC150 doesn't.

Unless you count the 720p60 as overcranked 720p24...

Unless you count the 720p60 as overcranked 720p24...
There is a difference - shoot basic 720p/24 with an EX and the basic data rate is 35Mbs. Now shoot overcranked, and the data rate recorded to card goes much higher, such that when replayed at 24fps, the data rate is 35Mbs, just as for normal 720p/24.

Shoot 720p/60 with an HMC150 and the data rate stays at about 21Mbs. Replay it at slower frame rates, and the average data rate must drop well below that figure.

Shoot 720p/60 with an HMC150 and the data rate stays at about 21Mbs. Replay it at slower frame rates, and the average data rate must drop well below that figure.

Good point.

I'm actually doing a comparison right now. I own the EX1 and am evaluating a HMC150. So far my perception is that the images on the HMC150 do not compare in quality with the EX1.

However this is without finding the sweet spots and any good tweaking or exposure optimization. It seems to have a lot less latitude than the EX1 from what I see so far and is far softer. I really want it work out as my B camera because I like the ergonomics, the lack of rolling shutter issues, the weight and the SDHC acquisition.

Really the EX1 is a fine camera, the image is solid I don't think you could go wrong here. Right now the EX1 codec is easier to use on a Mac than the AVCHD footage, and there still seem to be problems with longer length takes on the HMC150.

I'll keep you posted as I form further opinions

I'm actually doing a comparison right now. I own the EX1 and am evaluating a HMC150. So far my perception is that the images on the HMC150 do not compare in quality with the EX1.

However this is without finding the sweet spots and any good tweaking or exposure optimization. It seems to have a lot less latitude than the EX1 from what I see so far and is far softer. I really want it work out as my B camera because I like the ergonomics, the lack of rolling shutter issues, the weight and the SDHC acquisition.

Really the EX1 is a fine camera, the image is solid I don't think you could go wrong here. Right now the EX1 codec is easier to use on a Mac than the AVCHD footage, and there still seem to be problems with longer length takes on the HMC150.

I'll keep you posted as I form further opinionsGreat! I hope you can post your thorough feedback as well after. Maybe post some comparison screenshot or footage if you can? :)

Hi There,

I have tried them both in a DVD-production of a stand up show. In fact i own a HMC150. And you can tweek the HMC150 to a certain degree to look like an EX1. Use Scene File Cine D, and and dynamic Range Stretch set to 3. But the EX1 got more lattitude and less noise.
35 Mbit/s MPEG 2 and a larger CMOS sensor makes a difference.

But on the other hand - you can buy a truckload of SD-cards for the price difference between the Panasonic HMC-150 and a Sony EX1. And I like to have up to three hours recording time om a media, that is so cheap that you could use it for archival.

The best

And I like to have up to three hours recording time om a media, that is so cheap that you could use it for archival.
Agreed, but are you aware that it's now possible to directly use basic SDHC cards in an EX via a cheap adaptor? The EX also has two slots, so a longer uninterrupted run time and the possibility of card-card dubbing.

Hi There,

I have tried them both in a DVD-production of a stand up show. In fact i own a HMC150. And you can tweek the HMC150 to a certain degree to look like an EX1. Use Scene File Cine D, and and dynamic Range Stretch set to 3. But the EX1 got more lattitude and less noise.
35 Mbit/s MPEG 2 and a larger CMOS sensor makes a difference.

But on the other hand - you can buy a truckload of SD-cards for the price difference between the Panasonic HMC-150 and a Sony EX1. And I like to have up to three hours recording time om a media, that is so cheap that you could use it for archival.

The best


The EX1 can Also use SDHC media with the help of a Express card adapter MxR or Kensengton. I using (2)32GB SanDisk SDHC cards thats four hours of recording in HQ mode. I have shot with both cameras and I agree the EX1 has more lattitude and less noise.

I'm glad this thread has started up. I'm currently testing / evaluating the HMC150 as a B camera to my EX1. I use it mostly with the TC2 C4 setting in the Picture Profiles thread. I'd rather match the HMC150 to my EX1, no matter what I set the EX1 to since it's the A camera, rather than the other way around or tweaking the EX1 to some compromise. I'm also willing to adjust the HMC150 footage in post if needed.

I'm considering the HMC150 because I like the idea of AVCHD compression - maybe it's more efficient than MPEG2? I also wanted to get a CCD camera to avoid the rolling shutter, for some of the things I do in post, I've noticed the jello-like EX1 rolling shutter effects. I also like the 'solid state' storage media of SDHC cards, as I use the EX1 more and more and create a workflow and archiving method, I want to get away from tape (However I'm also evaluating the Canon XH A1, which is HDV tape-based).

So far with my tests of the HMC150 I'm not that impressed with the image, it seems a lot softer and noisier, and the noise is kind of strange looking, especially on the bokeh. However I admit my tests so far are not great. If I can sharpen up or otherwise color correct the HMC150 image in post.

Does anybody have advice or better yet, examples of where these 2 cameras were intercut together?

Have you seen any diff in how they handle motion? In theory the MPEG4 compression of the HMC150 may have advantages there.

To me its interesting that gthese two are being compared at all, and that speaks quite highly for the HMC. But to expect it to go toe-to-toe with an EX-1, with its 1/2" chips in terms of noise etc....is that realistic?

The advantage here would be in the codec, (MPEG4 vs. MPEG2) and what it brings to the table, which may be better motion due to its intra-frame prediction.

Have you seen any diff in how they handle motion? In theory the MPEG4 compression of the HMC150 may have advantages there.

As far as normal motion, I've not had a problem with the EX1. I do some post work where I do smoothcam or steadicam processing. The EX1 in that mode does exhibit the classic rolling shutter effect, perhaps to a lesser degree than HDV camcorders. As far as 'break-up' on the EX1 due to motion I have not noticed that. And other reports on the EX1 says the 35mb/second long GOP handles this well.

I'm still not actually sure if comparing the HMC150 to the EX1 in other ways is realistic. You can tell just by 'holding' the camera that the HMC150 is a more cheaply designed camera. For example the HMC150's LCD doesn't compare nor the lens feel. However it's a couple pounds lighter, it's ergonomics are good. The 1/3" chip makes everything smaller and lighter. The HMC150 could probably have been made even smaller, it seems to much less 'dense' than the EX1, like there's a lot of empty space inside that body.

Keith, what do you shoot?
I am doing more sports work and got the HMC150 as the MPEG4 is a much better choice than MPEG2 for fast motion, at least on paper. I could not risk "ghosting" or other artifacting issues hence my choice.
It all really depends on the job you need to do. The more I shoot the more I come to believe that no single cam can meet expectations across the gamut that I shoot.

I'm actually doing a comparison right now. I own the EX1 and am evaluating a HMC150. So far my perception is that the images on the HMC150 do not compare in quality with the EX1.

The footage will still intercut from the two for a SD production IMO. I don't think it's gonna work at all mixing for an HD production. Please let us know what you think.

I previously used A1s before switching over to the HMC-150s. I had a little issue with the A1 being sharper, but it was only an issue to my eyes. I think the EX1 takes the resolution yet another step higher than the A1, so a lot more eyes will see it (in HD that is).

However this is without finding the sweet spots and any good tweaking or exposure optimization. It seems to have a lot less latitude than the EX1 from what I see so far and is far softer. I really want it work out as my B camera because I like the ergonomics, the lack of rolling shutter issues, the weight and the SDHC acquisition.

There are some sweet spots on the HMC-150 where the images really pop and are very sharp. It's just too hard IMO to keep the camera there. I agree with all your other points. The 150 is a great camera if it does what you need.

Really the EX1 is a fine camera, the image is solid I don't think you could go wrong here. Right now the EX1 codec is easier to use on a Mac than the AVCHD footage, and there still seem to be problems with longer length takes on the HMC150.

I'll keep you posted as I form further opinions

If the EX1 were lighter, cheaper and smaller, I would have been all over it. But it's not and I can't. It's clearly at the top of the heap.

I currently really like the HMC-150. It is an excellent tool for capturing and churning out wedding and event video reliably. The AVCHD and SDHC capture has saved me hours per project over my old tape based fiddling around. It was a great choice for me.

When the Canon XH-A1 sensor is updated and it goes tapeless, or the HMC-150 gets a sensor upgrade, I will make the move. But until then, the HMC-150 is great.

Keith, what do you shoot?
I am doing more sports work and got the HMC150 as the MPEG4 is a much better choice than MPEG2 for fast motion, at least on paper. I could not risk "ghosting" or other artifacting issues hence my choice.
It all really depends on the job you need to do. The more I shoot the more I come to believe that no single cam can meet expectations across the gamut that I shoot.

I don't do sports much, though I do some documentary stuff, a bit of run and gun, hand held and some wildlife, a lot is locked off. Not the most motion-packed stuff, so perhaps I'm not the best to evaluate the motion artifacts of the EX1. However, I have followed EX1 forums very closely since late 2007 and it seems that the EX1's encoding is very difficult to break with even intense motion. People have tried and examined the output frame by frame. The rolling shutter seems to be the main motion artifact, and it's pretty natural unless you are doing the smoothcam post processing like I'm doing.

Probably the best thing would be to rent or purchase on EX1 or EX3 (which might be even better for telephoto sports - you can adapt SLR lenses to it) and test it, returning it if it isn't satisfactory.

Good luck returning an EX3.

And you can tweek the HMC150 to a certain degree to look like an EX1. Use Scene File Cine D, and and dynamic Range Stretch set to 3.

From what I can see of the DRS (Dynamic Range Stretch) function on the HMC150, it seems it is only available for the 60i recording setting, I can't seem to select it (it's grayed out on the menu) when I have it set to progressive modes. Since I shoot with the EX1 pretty much all the time in a progressive setting, using DRS on the HCM150 wouldn't help me if this is the case.

Also, until Final Cut Pro (which is what I use, I'm an Apple Mac user) supports AVCHD files natively, like it does with the EX1 files, the workflow is a bit slow and bloated, as it needs to convert AVCHD to ProRes, which adds a transcoding step, lessening the quality (though perhaps only slightly) and increases the storage requirements of the transcoded footage 3-4 times as large. If somebody is using files from the EX1 and HMC150 together with Final Cut Pro, what is your workflow?

Does anybody know of some sample video out there where an EX1 and a HMC150 have been intercut? Thanks again for any advice!

I have been shooting with the HMC150 for a little over a month now, and I have been generally very pleased.

I shoot archive video for theatre productions, and promotional videos and behind the scenes footage, that is delivered to the web and on DVD. First off, going from standard definition with my old Canon XL2 to even a highly compressed HD format was remarkable. Obviously the footage is higher resolution, but I was surprised how much better standard definition DVDs look coming from an HD source.

The first thing I did when I got the camera was push its codec tolerance. I went outside and shot some "busy" footage of leaves on trees, and did some swish pans. No matter how hard I tried I could not get artifacts on the fast movement. It all held together. But complicated footage like leaves moving in the trees were noticeably affected. Not a big deal since most of what I do is talking head interviews and archiving.

So it is actually performing better than I expected. I shoot 720p 24 and transcode to ProRes 422 LT when importing to FCP, and it more than suits my purposes.

The only real issue I have with the camera is its image stabilization. It seems to overcompensate and, for want of a better phrase, "lag and snap". During even slow pans it seems to snap into its settled position. It actually was such a problem that I ended up turning the stabilization off, and don't even bother with it anymore. I have a nice professional tripod, so I don't miss it.

This said, I haven't shot with the EX-1. If it was in my employer's budget I would have gotten one. I love the larger sensors and focus options of EX-1, but I am more than happy with the HMC150.

robert-

thank u for sharing your thoughts.

i also shoot a fair amount of talking heads.

care to share your thoughts on the hmc150 and its lighting needs?

how would compare the lighting needs between the hmc150 & the xl2?

what scene files do like best for your interviews?

lastly, are u a one-person shooter/audio do everything? if so, can u speak about "doing it all" with the hmc150?

again, thanks for sharing and welcome aboard.

be well

rob

I have been shooting with the HMC150 for a little over a month now, and I have been generally very pleased.

The only real issue I have with the camera is its image stabilization. It seems to overcompensate and, for want of a better phrase, "lag and snap". During even slow pans it seems to snap into its settled position. It actually was such a problem that I ended up turning the stabilization off, and don't even bother with it anymore. I have a nice professional tripod, so I don't miss it.



Uh-oh. I just order an HMC150 and most of my shooting will be handheld so I need some good stabilization. My other camera is an old FX1 Sony hdv which has really good stabilization.

We also could not afford a Sony EX cam so this was the sweet spot second choice. I hope I am right about that.

The stabilization is aggressive, and it's most useful for jerky stuff. If you're doing slow moves, it will indeed exhibit the behavior you describe. It's also vital to turn off the image stabilization if you're using a tripod! People frequently forget that, but you just have to do it. You should always also turn off image stabilization if using a 35mm lens adapter.

Thank you for the welcome, Rob.

I am indeed a one-man operation, and end up shooting spontaneously and often very quickly. I also need everything to fit in the back of my hatchback.

I use a single soft lighting source. Right now I have 650 watt Lowell kit, and use one instrument with heavy diffusion. A kind of improvised soft box. I find that very flattering on the subject, and it is quick to set up obviously. If I have time I wrap the barn doors of another instrument in blackwrap, making a sort of snoot that I can mold on the end, and project an abstract pattern against the background. Quick and dirty, but it works. I use the scene file 6 exclusively.

In terms of audio, when I'm doing interviews I tend to set the audio pods at the 12 o'clock position unless the subject has a soft voice, and rely on the auto gain adjustment to attenuate if someone laughs or raises their voice. I don't have a wireless lav kit, so I use a nice wired Shure lavalier I acquired years ago, or on some occasions when I'm following a subject around I'll use my Azden SX2 shotgun mic. (I know many have poor opinions of the Azden line of audio gear, but I have been quite pleased and feel they have a lot of bang for the buck. And that's the mic I use when I archive the shows for the theater I work for.)

If you go to this link:

Florida Stage - FM - Two Jews - Script Notes (http://www.floridastage.org/fm-twojews-scriptnotes)

you will see the basic set up of what I end up doing on short notice. This is a single light source and the shotgun mic. In the future I want to work on narrowing the depth of field by maybe applying some ND filtering so I can open the iris all the way. With the 1/3" sensor it's never going to be that great, but that doesn't mean I can't try.

There are a few things I miss from the XL-2, but not much. I never felt comfortable with it in my hands, it was rather front-heavy on my tripod no matter how far back I mounted it. And I hate to admit it, but I like having a flip out LCD screen.