I have an EX1 and I have to say, it's unbelievably good value - incredibly sharp images and (generally) very user-friendly.

My problem is that the resulting DVDs (moving subject on a grassy background) are utter garbage from this camera.

Swear at me all you like you guys - I've been a professional stills photographer for many years, so I know garbage when I see it. Please don't ply me with recommendations about downconversion - I've tried just about every possible way that's open to my Mac G5 and my head's spinning with suggestions (mostly tried and unsuccessful) from the EX1 guys.

I've also produced DVDs in SD (via PD170) and the footage has been excellent (once I learned the limitations of the camera). Then I moved on to a Z1 and found the downconversion OK on that too.
_______________

OK - so now my dealer has pointed me towards the Z7 and on paper, it seems to be just what I want.

Unless something miraculous happens in the next few days, the EX1 will have to go (sadly) so should I buy a Z7 or not?

What's the quality of the downconverted SD like (compared to other SD)?

Are there any serious problems with the Z7?

Someone on the EX1 forum told me there are issues with recording HDV and SD simultaneously. Is that the case?

Is there a particular firmware that I should insist my dealer gives me before I take this camera on?

And lastly - with that card recorder thingy on the back, what's the max battery life I can get (whilst recording two codecs).

I have an EX1 and I have to say, it's unbelievably good value - incredibly sharp images and (generally) very user-friendly.

My problem is that the resulting DVDs (moving subject on a grassy background) are utter garbage from this camera.

Swear at me all you like you guys - I've been a professional stills photographer for many years, so I know garbage when I see it. Please don't ply me with recommendations about downconversion - I've tried just about every possible way that's open to my Mac G5 and my head's spinning with suggestions (mostly tried and unsuccessful) from the EX1 guys.

I've also produced DVDs in SD (via PD170) and the footage has been excellent (once I learned the limitations of the camera). Then I moved on to a Z1 and found the downconversion OK on that too.
_______________

OK - so now my dealer has pointed me towards the Z7 and on paper, it seems to be just what I want.

Unless something miraculous happens in the next few days, the EX1 will have to go (sadly) so should I buy a Z7 or not?

What's the quality of the downconverted SD like (compared to other SD)?


Are there any serious problems with the Z7?

Someone on the EX1 forum told me there are issues with recording HDV and SD simultaneously. Is that the case?

Is there a particular firmware that I should insist my dealer gives me before I take this camera on?

And lastly - with that card recorder thingy on the back, what's the max battery life I can get (whilst recording two codecs).


If you mean downconvertion within the camera it is great. I can't speak for a software after the fact conversion because I don't know what you use.

I do HDV to tape and SD to the card and have not had any problems.

I am not sure if there has been a firmware upgrade. I'd be interested in this myself since I got one of the very first camaras.

I have not had any problems with the camera however the lens has a very narrow depth of field (at least in indoor lighting with max or near max zoom (under 100 feet)) and you need to be very careful with focus in some situations.

Throw away the stock battery and get a larger one on ebay. You'll get a few hours even with the lcd on.

you might also want to wait a few days until the Z5 ships.

Please don't ply me with recommendations about downconversion - I've tried just about every possible way that's open to my Mac G5 and my head's spinning with suggestions (mostly tried and unsuccessful) from the EX1 guys.
Please forgive me if it's something you've already tried, but have you been shooting the original in 1080 or 720p/50 mode?

Whatever the relevant merits are of each if you actually want HD, 720p/50 should downconvert much better than 1080i to 576i/25 - it's a relatively straightforward matter of producing an SD field from each HD frame. Originating in 1080i means a de-interlacing process before the downconversion.

. . . have you been shooting the original in 1080 or 720p/50 mode?

1080p David, so there's no deinterlacing involved.

720p/50 should downconvert much better than 1080i to 576i/25

I know - hindsight's 20/20 isn't it!
Thanks for your help though.

Disregard.

What would make you think the Z7 would be any better?
Steve

What would make you think the Z7 would be any better?
Steve

The Z7 can deliver Hardware (rather than Software) Downconverted SD.

1080p David, so there's no deinterlacing involved.
Just one last thought. It's not possible that the 1080p is being treated as psf, rather than true p, is it?

In which case, it could go be seen as interlaced, and go through an (unnecessary) de-interlacing process before downconversion, which may well give worse than expected results.

I'd be inclined to test some Z7 material before getting rid of the EX, and it may also be worth trying the EX in 720 recording mode.

The Z7 can deliver Hardware (rather than Software) Downconverted SD.

What does that mean? Is that an SD SDI out? And you would shoot in SD?

Steve

I cannot recommend Z7 to anyone with high standards since it gives distortion in black areas when in lowlight situation even with no gain. I am certain that Sony has cheated with the software to give it better lowlight result or higher contrast in black areas by having a dark area gain that you can´t control.

Here are som unaltered m2t-files that shows what I am talking about.
www.medix.nu/E296283.M2T
www.medix.nu/00_0002_2008-05-09_113306.M2T

Sonys response was this is how it is... We will not do anything.

I would recommend any other brand.

What does that mean? Is that an SD SDI out? And you would shoot in SD?

It downconverts in-camera, Steve

It's not possible that the 1080p is being treated as psf, rather than true p, is it?
In which case, it could go be seen as interlaced, and go through an (unnecessary) de-interlacing process before downconversion, which may well give worse than expected results.

I've never heard of psf, David.
Is there some way I can find out and / or remedy it?

I'd be inclined to test some Z7 material before getting rid of the EX

I certainly intend to - especially the SD side of things

it may also be worth trying the EX in 720 recording mode.

Yes. I already have some 720 footage - I'll see how it downconverts.

The Z7 can deliver Hardware (rather than Software) Downconverted SD.

say WHAT? The EX1 can deliver hardware downcoverted video as well. Just plug in to the component out. Easy as pie.

Honestly, If you can't get a clean SD downcovert of 1080p footage from the EX1 shooting a moving subject with the camera remaining still, you need to re-examine your methods. I've seen and tested the footage off this camera in a similar setting, and the results are stunning.

Not sure what you're doing, but works fine for me.

Best of luck with your Z7.

Best of luck with your Z7.

Well, the EX1's still here - but I'm looking at my options. I agree it's a wonderful camera.

Just plug in to the component out. Easy as pie.

Erm . . .
I presume you mean output via component to capture card? (Can you recommend one)?

If you can't get a clean SD downcovert of 1080p footage from the EX1 shooting a moving subject with the camera remaining still, you need to re-examine your methods.

My immediate problem is the (XDCAM EX) footage I have on my FCP timeline. It looks stunning as HD but unfortunately, I don't have all the BPAV folders so I don't have the option to re-ingest.

Any help would be very welcome.

I've never heard of psf, David.
Is there some way I can find out and / or remedy it?
Psf means progressive, segmented frame. It's effectively how films have always been shown via telecine, the films are inherently a progressive image at 25fps and they had to be transmitted over an interlace system at 50 fields/s.

In a true progressive frame the lines are carried in order - 1,2,3,4,5...1079,1080. For compatability with interlace equipment, it's possible to change the order to create two fields out of that frame such that the first carries the lines 1,3,5....1079 and the next field 2,4,6,...1080, and on to the next frame. The data hasn't been changed in any way - just reordered - so unlike de-interlacing the process is transparent and reversible. The reason for doing it is purely compatability with equipment which can only handle an interlace signal.

Psf material should be detected as such in an NLE, and treated accordingly. You may have to look at something like project or clip properties to see if that's the case - if it reports 1080i, then it's likely it's treating it the wrong way. Same applies to whatever software you use for downconversion.

Practically, I'd suggest just shooting some 720p material and seeing how it downconverts. EX material SHOULD be capable of giving a good quality downconversion, and IN THEORY better than from a Z7.

I tend to side with Perrone. If you're not happy with what the EX1's giving you then please don't move to the Z7 with it's far smaller (just over half the surface area) chips.

If it's interchangeable lenses you want then yes - a good move if you can't stretch to the EX3. But if you're not planning on swapping lenses (and going for the EX1 I suspect you're not) then the 1"/3 chipped Z5 might be a better bet. Starts wider, goes further, same lo-lite as the Z7.

tom.

Erm . . .
I presume you mean output via component to capture card? (Can you recommend one)?


AJA | Kona-LHe 12-Bit HD/SD Video PCIe Capture Card | KONA LHE (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/408186-REG/AJA_KONA_LHE_Kona_LHe_12_Bit_HD_SD_Video.html)



My immediate problem is the (XDCAM EX) footage I have on my FCP timeline. It looks stunning as HD but unfortunately, I don't have all the BPAV folders so I don't have the option to re-ingest.


Why re-ingest? The re-wrapped files you have are identical to what was in the BPAV folders.


Any help would be very welcome.

Send me 10 seconds of your troublesome video and I'll play with it and do a downconvert.

Kona-LHe 12-Bit HD/SD Video PCIe Capture Card | KONA LHE

Thanks Perrone, but I seem to have a mental block when it comes to Capture Cards!
Does this have to go to analogue at any stage?
Is there a Deck you would recommend for me?

I would dearly love to keep the EX1 if I can sort this.


Send me 10 seconds of your troublesome video and I'll play with it and do a downconvert.

There's just over 12 sec here - but it's XDCAM EX .mov:
http://www.workingsheepdog.co.uk/video/080710_Ray_6-ExpTest-12s18fr.mov

Let me know if this is a problem - and what format I can put it in for you.

There's also an MPEG2 here:
http://www.workingsheepdog.co.uk/video/080710_Ray_6-ExpTest-12s18fr.m2v
(If you burn that to DVD you'll see just how bad my results are with Compressor etc).

I'm most grateful for your help with this.

I tend to side with Perrone. If you're not happy with what the EX1's giving you then please don't move to the Z7 with it's far smaller (just over half the surface area) chips.

I know. This has been playing on my mind.

If it's interchangeable lenses you want then yes - a good move if you can't stretch to the EX3.

No. The budget won't stretch to lenses at the moment.
But (with help from all you guys) I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion the EX1's the right camera.

As I said above, I love the EX1 - but it's no use to me if I can't get quality SD from the footage. Perrone seems to be pointing me in the right direction though. I feel we're getting somewhere with Capture Cards. But finding the right Card and Deck combination without taking out a mortgage may be a problem.

Psf means progressive, segmented frame.

Thanks David.
I double checked and all my footage is 1080 or 720 - progressive in both cases.

Well, I have good news and bad news.

The bad news is that I could not open the original file. I don't have a mac so could you recompress that clip with lossless PNG so I can download it and see it? Uncompressed QT would work also but the file will be much larger.

The GOOD news is that I was able to open the mpg file and I can say without a doubt that it was the worst HD downconversion I've ever seen. And completely not representative of what you can do with the EX1. If that is what you think you'll end up with, I can see why you are unhappy. Keep the camera, lets fix the problem instead.

If you get me the original footage in a format I can open on my PC (PNG works great) I'll do a clean downconvert for you so you can see it. Then we can work on the Compressor issue.

-P


Thanks Perrone, but I seem to have a mental block when it comes to Capture Cards!
Does this have to go to analogue at any stage?
Is there a Deck you would recommend for me?

I would dearly love to keep the EX1 if I can sort this.




There's just over 12 sec here - but it's XDCAM EX .mov:
http://www.workingsheepdog.co.uk/video/080710_Ray_6-ExpTest-12s18fr.mov

Let me know if this is a problem - and what format I can put it in for you.

There's also an MPEG2 here:
http://www.workingsheepdog.co.uk/video/080710_Ray_6-ExpTest-12s18fr.m2v
(If you burn that to DVD you'll see just how bad my results are with Compressor etc).

I'm most grateful for your help with this.

I cannot recommend Z7 to anyone with high standards since it gives distortion in black areas when in lowlight situation even with no gain. I am certain that Sony has cheated with the software to give it better lowlight result or higher contrast in black areas by having a dark area gain that you can´t control.

Here are som unaltered m2t-files that shows what I am talking about.
www.medix.nu/E296283.M2T
www.medix.nu/00_0002_2008-05-09_113306.M2T

Sonys response was this is how it is... We will not do anything.

I would recommend any other brand.

Your footage looks worse than my old Z1 or FX1, perhaps you are not in full manual and auto gain is kicked on because that was some noisy footage.

Keep the camera, lets fix the problem instead.

Sounds good to me, Perrone.

If you get me the original footage in a format I can open on my PC (PNG works great) I'll do a clean downconvert for you so you can see it.

Download from here:
http://www.workingsheepdog.co.uk/video/080710_Ray_6-ExpTest-1s12fr.mov

It's only 1.5 seconds (120 MB).

Hope it works OK

I've got the footage and am working on it. But this is interlaced not progressive, so that's your first problem right there.

-P

this is interlaced not progressive, so that's your first problem

No - stop!
It shouldn't be (but I know it is because I just checked).

Here are my settings:
http://www.workingsheepdog.co.uk/video/picture_1.png

No - stop!
It shouldn't be (but I know it is because I just checked).

Here are my settings:
http://www.workingsheepdog.co.uk/video/picture_1.png

It doesn't matter what your FCP setting are. It matters how it was shot in-camera. And this was shot interlaced. You can see the field teeth any time the man moves. I'll be putting up something here in a moment.

Video will show here:

Sheepdog test (uncompressed - interlaced) on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/2535201)

I am doing another render and upload to my youtube page.

Here's the YouTube:

YouTube - interlaced.mp4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEMRVJZ7A78)

It doesn't matter what your FCP setting are. It matters how it was shot in-camera. And this was shot interlaced.

http://www.workingsheepdog.co.uk/video/picture_3.png

I've never shot interlaced with the EX1.
The original clip shows Field Dominance: None - in FCP Properties.

Not sure what's going on here - I'm extremely tired - been working since 4am this morning and it's now 7pm (whimper).

When I set the QT conversion to "Interlaced" the resultant file was Interlaced again but Upper, rather than Lower Dominance (which if I remember rightly is what the file you have is).

Have you any other suggestions for a format I could send this clip in??

Andy,

There was nothing wrong with sending me the file in PNG. But why would you set interlace? And my version shows upper field dominance by the way.

Just create a quicktime file either as quicktime uncompressed, or quicktime PNG (Or photoJpeg at 100%). Any of those should give lossless results.

Leave the format progressive.

Is anyone else looking at this, or just me? Maybe someone with a Mac can read his original files and tell me what you see...

But why would you set interlace?

I set the second export to interlaced because when the first one was set to "not interlaced" it came out interlaced. So I thought it was worth seeing whether the controls were the wrong way around.

I would not deliberately send you interlaced.

I set the second export to interlaced because when the first one was set to "not interlaced" it came out interlaced. So I thought it was worth seeing whether the controls were the wrong way around.

I would not deliberately send you interlaced.

Makes sense. Unfortunately, they BOTH came out interlaced! Maybe someone with the same software can figure out how to keep the interlaced footage from happening.

To be honest, interlaced or not, the footage seems awfully soft. Nothing like the EX1 footage I am used to seeing. Not sure what was going on there. I just went out and shot some outdoor footage with my EX1 in 1080p24, which is as close as I can get to your PAL setting. I'll see what it looks like here in a moment. It was footage from a fountain with the water flowing so it should give some nice "natural" motion.

-P

For those interestied...

I went outside today and shot some footage of a nearby fountain for test purposes. I shot the footage at 1080/24p. Brought the footage into my NLE, transcoded it to uncompressed AVI. Took that AVI into Virtualdub and did a resize to 720p and 720x406 (SD). I then brought those two resized images back into the NLE and monitored the output on an SD broadcast monitor. The 720p version was sharper for sure, but the SD version was sharper than anything I've seen on the HD broadcast channels for sure.

So I made .mp4s of both the SD and 720p verisons and pu them on Youtube. Here they are for your enjoyment:

720p (waiting on HD coversion): YouTube - Fountain Clip2b 720p (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeEEgH3iAmU)

SD version:
YouTube - Fountain Clip2b 406p (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDezJIcuUaM)

Thought I should just say thanks to everyone who's helped me with the EX1 / SD problem.

At last, thanks to Kevan Holdsworth over on the Apple FCP Forum, I read through the XDCAM Transfer Instruction PDF very carefully and there it was all the time!

XDCAM Transfer is the Sony plugin for importing footage - but it also EXPORTS loads of stuff - including either DV PAL / NTSC @ 48k

OR

IMX50 625 (which is Ancient Dutch for Cracking SD) IMX PAL / NTSC @ 50Mb/s
(Choice of other rates available).

My settings are here:
http://www.workingsheepdog.co.uk/video/picture_01.png

This gives you an XML file which you then Import back into FCP using XDCAM Transfer.
EXCELLENT SD footage!

Excellent SD Footage from the EX1

There's no way I'll part with my Sony EX1 now!

There's no way I'll part with my Sony EX1 now!

Andy, Glad you got it solved. I just couldn't understand why you thought it was the camera. Working on your issue taught me some things to help ME though so I am grateful to you for that.

Your footage looks worse than my old Z1 or FX1, perhaps you are not in full manual and auto gain is kicked on because that was some noisy footage.

It is 0db set and Sony says thats how it is...