I hope someone can help a HD newbie here.......

After Christmas, I have been asked to Shoot an outdoors show, lots of scenery etc on HD.
Up till now I have used DVCPro50, and this is my first time using HD for a serious show.
What I want to know is, what format should I shoot it in? 720/25 or 720/50 ?
I am looking for clean crisp smooth pictures if I can get them.

I have 2 ProHD Cameras, a GY-HD111E and a GY-HD200U to choose from.
I also have a HZ-CA13U and some primes.
Also as in a previous post, I have a 2/3/ to 1/3 adaptor and a selection of nice 2/3 lenses up to 33x etc

It will be played into the editor with a BR-HD50E.

I know this is a broad question, but how would you do it, bearing in mind it will be aired on HD down here in Oz.........

Cheers
John

I hope someone can help a HD newbie here.......

After Christmas, I have been asked to Shoot an outdoors show, lots of scenery etc on HD.
Up till now I have used DVCPro50, and this is my first time using HD for a serious show.
What I want to know is, what format should I shoot it in? 720/25 or 720/50 ?
I am looking for clean crisp smooth pictures if I can get them.

I normally use 720p25 for regular work. My standard for delivery is 25p DVD. It gives me a nice, almost filmlike picture. I only use 50p for very fast movement or if I want to do slowmo in post. The disadvantage of 50p is that it uses more compression (or longer GOP) to put the 50 frames in the same HDV bandwidth.


I have 2 ProHD Cameras, a GY-HD111E and a GY-HD200U to choose from.
I also have a HZ-CA13U and some primes.

I also have the HZ-CA13U. I use it with a HD200. Advantage is that this one has a build in image reverse function in the Camera Process menu. The HZ will flip your image optically. So you'll need a HD200, if you intend to use PL lenses.
For concerts, shows etc. I would not use primes or other film lenses. It brings a lot of issues with them. For example: every lens requires a different kind of white shading adjustment, which can be very cumbersome while shooting. Currently, I'm using a Canon 8-64mm Super16 zoom in a low-budget feature production, and every F-stop needs it's own white shading setting. I now keep the aperture wide open (2.4) to have the shortest possible Depth of Field, and adjust exposure with ND's, shutter and lighting. Not very practical while in the field.


Also as in a previous post, I have a 2/3/ to 1/3 adaptor and a selection of nice 2/3 lenses up to 33x etc

I do not have experience with 2/3 lenses on the JVC. I believe this adapter only allows you to attach them, but does not convert the image to the smaller Field of view of the camera. This would render a wide-angle lens to a normal or even medium-tele lens. Not very practical. Another disadvantage of using old 2/3 lenses is that they were made for older SD camera's and not for HD. Coating, glass etc. is not designed for this camera, altough it can be used I guess.

My advice is: in cinematic productions (video clips, short films, features) in a controlled environment you could start to mess around with the HZ-adapter and some good PL film lenses.

For all other regular work: pick up the Fujinon TH13x3.5 Wide-angle zoom lens. It works like a dream and gives you stunning wide-angle capabilities. Otherwise, the Fujinon stock lens is perfectly acceptable for run-and-gun style work.

I will never again use this camera in 50p mode to shoot fast moving subjects to be slowed down in post. The results are horrendous!

please see

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/jvc-pro-hd-acquisition-systems/135223-pixelation-high-motion.html

I'd only recommend using 50p if you want to slow down something that's not too detailed or fast moving (unless you are tracking the subject and maintaining it's focus, framing and composition within the shot).

I learned the hard and expensive way as we had to get a load of horses, riders, costumes and location all organised again for a re-shoot. 50p for fast stuff? No way!

However, I've slowed down 50p stuff when the subjects are moving slowly with some nice results.

Just be careful or at least shoot a test!

Hope that helps.

Thanks guys, this is all good info that may save me a heap of hassles......taking every bit in.

I had a bit of a play around today.....
I really don't like the jittery motion on a pan, even when done slow shooting 720p/25 @ 250th shutter.
I like the look very much more at 720p/50 , but only the 200U will do it.....not my second camera, a 111E
I think some footage will come from both camera's..........what to do ???
Or am I doing something wrong...... everyone says they shoot most of their stuff at 25, but how do you get rid of the jitters as much as possible ? and get a smoother look like seen at 50 ?
Sorry if this all seems a bit basic, but I am right at the pointy end of a shift into HDV and am stumped with a fix that will alow me to use both camera's

I'm in Canada so we're 60p instead of 50 but I shoot 60P exclusively and love the motion. I could see where the codec would fall apart if you tried to slow the footage down but for delivery to either web or DVD (not doing Blu-Ray here yet but I've done a few HD-DVDs that look great), the conversion looks great.

As well, if you're shooting at high shutter (you mentioned 1/250), motion is going to look more stuttered regardless of what frame rate you choose. Look at Olympic swimming on TV. You can see each individual drop of water perfectly formed in the air.

I had a bit of a play around today.....
I really don't like the jittery motion on a pan, even when done slow shooting 720p/25 @ 250th shutter. I would stick around 1/50th or at MOST 1/100th of a second. I'm in NTSC land so I do 1/48th (24p) for drama and 1/60th for sports also at 24p. I almost never go as high as 1/100th.

To add to the advice Alex gives, I'll use 1/250 OUTDOORS for a talking head in order to get the background soft but zero movement, including talent's hands. Other than that, 1/100 or 1/60 for "normal" shooting here in 60Hz land.

To add to the advice Alex gives, I'll use 1/250 OUTDOORS for a talking head in order to get the background soft but zero movement, including talent's hands. Other than that, 1/100 or 1/60 for "normal" shooting here in 60Hz land.

To ADD to Seans' ADD. I also picked up a ND4 filter to combine with my electronic ND filters to force the aperature open. Same result as ramping up the shutter speed in reference to depth of field. I did a search via amazon.com and got a good glass one for some blow out sale for $15. HEMC coating. BH sold the same filter for $65. Best $15 i've spent recently. So that's another option to help force open the aperture. I wouldn't spend the $65 though.

my electronic ND filters to force the aperature open.

I BELIEVE the ND filters on the JVCs physically insert ND material into the optical path, just like on the "big boys". Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah, Alex, I've been meaning to get some heavier ND filters but decide to wait until I get my matte box, then I'll get 4x4 filters. But at $15? Giddy Up!

I BELIEVE the ND filters on the JVCs physically insert ND material into the optical path, just like on the "big boys". Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't think your wrong. I noticed that recently when I had the switch between ND1 and ND2 and part of the screen was vignetted.

on the JVCs are real ones, but not enough in real bright light alone if you want to use a lower shutter speed, at least use a polariser or extra .9ND to control you light.
Shooting 24/25p as long as your tight should look great, it's not a whip around type speed and with practise looks good, I often use the 1/200 shutter (or whatever it is can't remember right now if it's that or 1/250) with high speed action. You can record SD at 50/60p as well if that helps on both camera's I'm reasonably sure.
Those inbuilt NDs can be not fully located causing the vignetting if you don't push the slide all the way home at the given position.

regards

Adam

I just check at amazon.com they still have the filter I got for $14.95. I guess I was right on what it cost me. I don't remember the shipping. But if anyone needs to pick up some decent ND filters. Here was the link.

Amazon.com: Hoya HMC NDX4 - Filter - neutral density 4x - 82 mm: Camera & Photo (http://www.amazon.com/Hoya-HMC-NDX4-neutral-density/dp/B0000AN0XW/ref=cm_cr_wr_img)

I had a bit of a play around today.....
I really don't like the jittery motion on a pan, even when done slow shooting 720p/25 @ 250th shutter.
I like the look very much more at 720p/50 , but only the 200U will do it.....not my second camera, a 111E
I think some footage will come from both camera's..........what to do ???
Or am I doing something wrong...... everyone says they shoot most of their stuff at 25, but how do you get rid of the jitters as much as possible ? and get a smoother look like seen at 50 ?
Sorry if this all seems a bit basic, but I am right at the pointy end of a shift into HDV and am stumped with a fix that will alow me to use both camera's

Hi John,
You have to learn to shoot like a film camera to avoid the judder. I had a real tough time when i first got my camera but now I have learnt how to do it, I have no problem at all. I shoot TV commercials for a living and we shoot everything at 720/25. I have the 13 x lens as well which is the best money I have ever spent. You must learn to shoot differently altogether. I know what you are going through.

Hi Dennis

Can you give me a quick rundown on how you mean.....
I know I will have to go through the motions, but info from someone who has been there will give me a huge start......
and you say the 13x is that good........how much did you pay here in Oz mate?

John

Hi Dennis

Can you give me a quick rundown on how you mean.....
I know I will have to go through the motions, but info from someone who has been there will give me a huge start......
and you say the 13x is that good........how much did you pay here in Oz mate?

John

Hi John,
The 13x is around $7500. When I first bought my camera it was $16,800. It is amazing and when i upgrade the camera I will sell it with no problem.
You need to understand that you can not pan like you used to. All pans must be slow and keep the action in the frame. You must track the subject and with the wide lens I rarely need to pan anyway now as I can get it all in the shot. You must set up the shot with the subject moving toward or away from the camera and this avoids the judder you are seeing. Just watch a movie and you will notice the way the camera tracks the people eg. in the scene. When they turn a corner, the camera dollies or tracks with them. The background becomes juddery but the subject remains sharp and clear. You will notice that the camera is always set up so the people are always walking toward or away from the camera. If they are sitting down, the camera moves with them etc. It takes a lot of getting used to and you have to plan the shot rather than just waving the camera in the air. After a while the shooting style becomes second nature and creates a beautiful look. I now laugh when i think of the times I wanted to send the camera back. Now i only shoot progressive. Hope that helps.
Feel free to see my web site and you can call me from there if you want.
Video Production - Internet Video (http://www.redtvproductions.com.au)

Thanks mate !

I am probably stressing over nothing haha, its a fair bit different though to shooting my normal DigiBeta or DVCpro50 stuff.
I will no doubt learn to be a better cameraman though in the end

John

Thanks mate !

I am probably stressing over nothing haha, its a fair bit different though to shooting my normal DigiBeta or DVCpro50 stuff.
I will no doubt learn to be a better cameraman though in the end

John

Of course. Thats what its all about. I do this for a living otherwise it wouldn't matter. As I say, feel free to call if you want. I work 18 hours a day every day.
Dennis

Thanks Dennis, I will get a bit in the can and see what it all looks like.
18 hours , boy I know that feeling........I own an outside broadcast company and do around 600 odd OB jobs a year....keeps me up at night too !!.
I had a look at your site....nice stuff.

Anyway, thanks again, and if I run into probs, I will give you a call.

cheers
John

I really don't like the jittery motion on a pan, even when done slow shooting 720p/25 @ 250th shutter.
I like the look very much more at 720p/50 , but only the 200U will do it.....not my second camera, a 111E
I think some footage will come from both camera's..........what to do ???
Or am I doing something wrong...... everyone says they shoot most of their stuff at 25, but how do you get rid of the jitters as much as possible ? and get a smoother look like seen at 50 ?

Hi John.

I got your email with regards to how I achieved "flicker-free" 24p or 25p footage and I want to address it here in your thread because this question comes up quite a bit.

My background is rooted in film so I think in those terms: 24fps, standard 180° shutter angle, and a "feel" for appropriate tilt/panning speeds. For the smoothest results at 24fps or 25fps stick with the 180° shutter (1/48th or 1/50th shutter.) Less exposure time per frame (1/250th as you were using) will shorten the motion blur and give the unnatural "strobe" effect of Saving Private Ryan/Gladiator.

However, I think that most of the perceived "judder" with 24P HD footage is actually a result of type and refresh rate of your display. You can watch the exact same 24P footage on a CRT monitor, LCD computer display or large screen front projection and see different "judder" results.
So which one will be the best and which will be the worst?

The best will be projection. Why? Probably because of persistence of vision with a white screen. I screen ProHD 720p24 originated material on JVC DiLA projectors all the time and it "feels" like a film print, just with less flicker.

The second best will be CRT. CRT screens, regardless of what types of signals they can accommodate, are still interlaced. Our brains have always perceived interlace CRT as smooth with no hard transitions. In NTSC 24fps sources are converted to NTSC 60i using a 2:3 pulldown. A film shot at 24fps still feels like 24fps but there are fewer "complete" frames being shown on-screen and our brains can easily keep up because of the interlace scanning. In PAL 25P is transmitted as 50i which also helps the brain with the transition from frame to frame.

What about LCD or Plasma? Well there are a wide range of LCD displays out there and I feel like most of the ones currently found in people's homes are a technological step backwards from the CRT displays they have replaced. LCD/Plasma displays are progressive by design but vary widely in their refresh rates/response time. The best ones out there can do 120Hz refresh rate which will minimize streaking and properly portray the natural motion of progressive footage.
Plasma is typically better at this than LCD (I highly recommend the Z800 series of Panasonic plasma displays) but LCD technology gets better and better year after year.

That's all for now. I have to go shovel some more snow...again!

haha , thanks Tim......Shovel Snow !! haha, I have to put on some more suntan oil !!

Yeah, I think more than anything , I am suffering from "1st reel panic syndrome".
its a new job I am taking on shooting these 2, 1 hour specials, and then 13 normal episodes, and I really want to nail it.
For me its a totally new way to shoot, and it all seems a bit different, but I will learn.
I do however have the fortune to be going on a 4x4 trip for 3 weeks in Jan, coming back 4 days before we start the shoot, so the HD cam will be riding shotgun so I can shoot a bit to get my way of thinking around the new format......

Thanks for all your help guys, it will definately give me more confidence knowing it can be done.

cheers and have a fantastic Christmas everyone

John