...to be worshiped. Of course, I'll take donations at the door.

Expensive CCDs are totally bogus, Dude! - The Digital Video Information Network (http://www.dvinfo.net//conf/showthread.php?t=77230)

May Red, Nikon, and Canon go in peace to serve the image. Everyone else had two years of warning but they wouldn't listen to me when I pleaded with them to stop limiting imager size.

I think I've decided on my next camera. I think I'll keep the V1 for long-form stuff but maybe I should sell it and just accept 12 minutes as an artistic constraint. I guess if I was really a prophet I would know what to do already? Hmmm...I guess all I need is a 5DII, tunic, sandals, and this thermos and my path will be clear.

Thanks for all the reports, reviews, images, and tricks. Now I just need to be patient until they are more easily available.

And in a year, you may choose to place the Canon at the altar of the eBay and swim in the RED Sea. Or not. Either way, you will be an established member of the Siblinghood of the Large Sensor.

May your name be placed at the top of a short waiting list.

Everyone I can think of who is serious about pro-level video work has been collectively asking, taunting and even screaming at the "big 3" camera manufacturers to supply technology exactly like what has come about in the 5D MkII. In all fairness it's *not* a true video camera like the HVX200, EX1, Viper etc... but that's kinda the point, right?

At the end of the day what do you really need, ultra-expensive cameras with tons of pricey add-ons hanging off it or, something that captures great looking, low-noise high-quality images?

Here's the really interesting part: Sony makes digital still cameras and has for years, they're even now in the "pro" market with the Alpha line (see A900 release). Panasonic makes digital cameras too and they design and provide the sensors for Olympus and Leica lines as well. Canon on the other hand has been a master of still cameras but in the video world they've never had anything beyond the XL/H1 series (Canon doesn't make a 2/3" camera nor ever will). And JVC? With both Panny and Sony offering tapeless and high-end compression formats JVC seems to have been left in the dust so to speak with precious little development in their HDV lineup.

So in point of fact, Sony and Panasonic have had all the technology and experience with BOTH video and still cameras to bring to market exactly what the 5D MkII is all about. So, Canon beat them to the punch. Ironic, ain't it?!

Dyed-in-the-wool camera operators will rail against the 5D simply because it's *not* a traditional video camera by definition, Sony and Panny must be kicking themselves for not jumping on this technological game-changing platform sooner, but chances are they will especially since the indie market has all but jumped on this "little camera than can".

To Marcus point about a 12-minute limit: Who cares? A traditional 35mm film-canister for an Arri or Pan-V is around 10-13 minutes. It's the same time-limit HVX users were dealing with when only 8GB cards were available.

This little camera is making big waves in the community and has already found it's place. Will it replace a Viper, HPX2700 or even an EX1? No, but for some shoots you wouldn't need those cameras anyway! Vive la difference!!

I had a job recently which required schlepping a Varicam on a flight to shoot a short, locked down interview. It occurred to me that the 5D would have been perfectly adequate for the task and much more portable. At the same time, the job I am now requires me to shoulder the Sony F35 for many hours a day and even that very sophisticated camera has a number of ergonomic issues. From what I've read about the 5D, it presents a difficult form factor and feature set to use as a production camera (guess that makes me a "dyed-in-the-wool" operator by Robert's description)!

It's not to say that I'm not intrigued by the camera but I would personally love to see that technology re-housed in a package better suited to continuous shooting rather than still photography.

Seems like the manufacturers keep missing the mark by just a bit. But then, if they gave us exactly what we wanted at the get go, what about future sales. The 5D2 is getting closer. I suspect Scartlet's S35 and FF35 will be on the money for those that make a living at some heftier expense. But for my "non-profit" outfit, Scarlet is probable still a little to much. The 5D2 shows that it clearly can be done, and it doesn't have to sell for $ 10 K, and thats what I love about this Canon offering..

"I would personally love to see that technology re-housed in a package better suited to continuous shooting rather than still photography."

I agree but there are also some benefits as you mentioned. I also have been saying that smaller cameras are better. One can always add stuff to make the package bigger but some shoots need something portable. There are also some tricks for still cameras like using the neck strap as a sort of shoulder stabilizer. Hold the camera out in front of you and put tension on the straps. Depending on the mount point of the straps it might be necessary to loop them under a couple fingers to bring the tension point in line with the center of mass. With arms at the side and the strap under some tension the camera sort of "locks in" to the body. This is a common technique with shooting rifles from a standing position.

I'm sure there are lots of things to become accustomed to when switching form factors but the image quality is most important for some work. I'll probably still keep my Sony V1 for corporate stuff and situations where a really long lens is handy. It is still quite good in decent light. The small chips on video cameras also have one strength with the magnification factor. I can shoot surfers a thousand yards out on surf breaks.

Dyed-in-the-wool camera operators will rail against the 5D simply because it's *not* a traditional video camera by definition

Well, I wouldn't consider myself a 'dyed-in-the-wool camera operator' but I'm still willing to rail against the 5D... because it *is* a traditional video camera!

By that I mean that it is not a serious, professional video tool. It certainly could be, but for whatever reason canon has chosen to make it just a video camera, a point and shoot camera with controls that operate at the vacation video level.

Are there workarounds? Sure, just like there are workarounds on their low end video cameras - but the difference is that there don't have to be with this camera! It already has all the controls pros need, they're just disabled as soon as you start recording - so it's clearly not a question of cost, size or mechanical limitations. It's a market protection/stratification move by Canon, pure and simple - which takes us right back to Marcus' first rant about price stratification along sensor size lines. Now we've got the big sensors but they've been artificially crippled by the same marketing decisions...


Sony and Panny must be kicking themselves for not jumping on this technological game-changing platform sooner, but chances are they will especially since the indie market has all but jumped on this "little camera than can".


Sure, just like Canon's kicking themselves for not allowing full manual control in the 5DmkII. Or 24/25p. The 'indie market' (low margin/low volume) isn't much of a market for them at all in comparison to either the consumer (low margin/high volume) or pro (low volume/high margin). The indie market has also shown an almost absurd willingness to go to rube goldberg-ian lengths to get something that looks like a "movie" out of consumer level equipment - so why would these manufacturers risk their pro-level margins by catering to the indie market when they don't need to?

I'm currently trying to convince myself not to just ebay this thing... it's incredibly frustrating having so much potential at my fingertips locked up by marketing decisions. From that standpoint I find myself hoping that the 5D isn't a sign of things to come - but I'm afraid it is until someone (RED, likely; next year, hopefully) breaks from the current market stratification.

The next Canon will have everything but a video form factor. The 1 series have 2x the processing power of the 5DII. Will Canon use this extra horsepower for good or evil?

Figure $8K list price.

But what about their next high-end video camcorder?

Why do I feel like we will see a significant change here to the current XL in terms of tech specs.

I mean, with the 5DMarkII out and the interest that has spawned from it, I would think Canon at least understands that their next high-end HD Camcorder (XLH2) would have to surpass the video quality that comes out of their DSLR that costs 4 times less. They can't shoot themselves in the foot like that.

So what's interesting to me is not what the next iteration of this tech will be like in their higher end 1D series SLRs, but more importantly in their next XL camera.

Imagine it having 3 35mm Full Frame HD CMOS Sensors, with something like 3.1 MegaPixels per sensor ... damn, the low light on that thing would be insane! We could probably count the individual pixels on the sensors :)

I completely agree that the next time we see the 5d's video technology implemented will be in the next XL series...

remember how everyone was waiting for the next gen XL and XH, only to find that when they finally arrived their were virtually no differences... and in the case of the XL, they removed 4-channel audio?!?! i think the reasoning behind this is they are gong to be using the same 21mp Cmos sensor in their new video cameras... the price is obviously in line...

this would give them the opportunity to sell lenses (where the real profit is) for video cams as well as still cams... The Red camera people see this inevitability... which is why they are trashing the 5d's video so feverishly...

Using the same sensors for still and video would also save a boat load on R&D costs... it seems like a total no brainer...

Also, Canon is in the unique position of NOT-having a true ENG or Cinema department, so they have nothing to lose from improving there sub-10k cams to be true digital-cinema devices... something which has stopped Panasonic as well as Sony from reinventing their prosumer lines...

The change is coming!

RED still offers some advantages (once they ship what they claim):
1) RAW format
2) Fast read/reset for less skew
3) Clean filtering with better aliasing/resolution
4) Video form factors and options
5) Full adjustability
6) Frame rates to die for
7) Pro audio
8) 2K (finished from 3K) and well beyond

The 5D Mark II is less expensive and shipping, and will continue to have these advantages:
1) Stealth
2) Low weight
3) Great, high MP stills (compared to the 3k 2/3", certainly)
4) Records on less expensive media
5) Simpler workflow. (Edit on Vegas, moderate PC, etc)

Some of us will definitely want to upgrade next year. For others the 5D MkII is good enough. Others will want both - and possibly multiple RED cams. Having a FF35 RED for top quality, a 2/3 RED for extreme frame rates and the 5D MkII for flying to events would really cover the spectrum.

I have no idea if I will sell the camera next year. It will depend on how stupid the workarounds are, and if I really need the frame rates and clean resolution of the 2/3" RED - and if I can sacrifice the shallow DOF and light sensitivity of the full frame cam.

..................

remember how everyone was waiting for the next gen XL and XH, only to find that when they finally arrived their were virtually no differences...

Yes, weird and disappointing. It s nice to think that maybe there was a reason. But I'll believe they actually "get it" when I see it.

I like the philosophy behind red and their products are capable of spectacular results, but sometimes the name calling over there can be a little off putting. Why are they so afraid? I can plainly see their cameras deliver superior image quality compared to something like canon's 5d. I don't need them telling me canon is pulling off "cheap parlor tricks" to get video out of their camera. I mean, they started telling people how bad the 5d's skew was going to be before the first cameras had even shipped! Sometimes I get the feeling they are trying to convince people they hold the key to some advanced alien-like technology that no other manufacturer could ever dream of reaching, when in fact the consensus back when red started was not that manufacturers like sony, canon, pana, etc... were technologically incompetent, but rather that they had been drip feeding us their technology and squeezing us out of the very last penny they could get. I think they should focus on getting thir products right and let their clients figure out who's best.

Just my opinion. :)

"this would give them the opportunity to sell lenses (where the real profit is) for video cams as well as still cams..."

Canon really needs to get an update out that allows manual aperture and all other basic settings or everyone will be buying more Nikon lenses. I really hate to see them make such a phenomenal error that costs them money when they are making such a nice camera. If it still makes sense financially to buy this camera when it is actually available to me I may only buy one zoom lens so I can get image stabilization for event video. I already have some Nikon lenses and won't bother getting Canon lenses if I have to play tricks to set the exposure.

I'm in the same boat, Marcus. I want one Canon zoom. Everything else will be a Nikon prime. Given manual aperture control, I'd be buying Canon lenses without hesitation.

I'm in the same boat, Marcus. I want one Canon zoom. Everything else will be a Nikon prime. Given manual aperture control, I'd be buying Canon lenses without hesitation.

So if I understand this -- I'm a Canon XHA1 guy, not a photography guy but seriously considering the 5D Mark II for indie filmmaking -- you guys would recommend Nikon lenses with a Canon-Nikon adapter because used Nikon lenses are good, cheap, and readily available, and 1 Canon zoom. Is that right?

Which Canon zoom do you like?

So if I understand this -- I'm a Canon XHA1 guy, not a photography guy but seriously considering the 5D Mark II for indie filmmaking -- you guys would recommend Nikon lenses with a Canon-Nikon adapter because used Nikon lenses are good, cheap, and readily available, and 1 Canon zoom. Is that right?

Which Canon zoom do you like?


If you want DOF control, you'll need a f2.8 zoom. For the normal range that would be the 24-70L.
If f4 is fast enough you could get the 24-105L IS. IS is image stabilization that does work if the camera is on the shoulder.

I have fast primes and four zooms:
Nikon 14-24 and t Canon 24-105L IS, 70-200l F4 IS, 100-400L IS

Greg, this thread being about the inevitability of video cameras going to larger chips for the huge increase in image quality brought us to talk about what must happen to make a DSLR a video camera. Canon made a big mistake in de-activating manual iris on the 5DII. A workaround to this problem is to use manual focus Nikon lenses and an adapter. To get image stabilization capability (and also auto-focus?) a Canon lens is needed. I'm thinking of getting something like the Canon EF 28-135 IS for its very practical zoom range and affordability. It is well-reviewed and I think mentioned in threads around here as suitable for the 5DII.

Canon | EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS Image Stabilizer | 2562A002AA (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/149629-USA/Canon_2562A002AA_EF_28_135mm_f_3_5_5_6_IS.html)

I am not an expert on Canon lenses, DSLRs for video, or anything really, but a lens like that or better seems to be a decent choice. I wish there was a 28-135 f2.8 with image stabilization. It seems that the low f-number zooms are either super wide or zoom only (like 70-200mm). To make a DSLR work more like a video camera it just makes sense to have a lens that covers fairly wide to moderate zoom without the need to change lenses. I prefer to work up close to reduce shakes anyway so 135mm zoom is just about enough for me.

Marcus,

I've got that the Canon EF 28-135 IS and I've used it with both the 5D Mk II as well as a Brevis/Canon XH-A1 and you can only use it outside in natural sunlight. It doesn't work well indoors. You'll need something faster if you want to get decent indoor video.

I even find the 24-105L f4 IS to weak indoors. I generally go to a faster lens like a f1.4 or a f2.

Thanks for the info, guys!

--Greg

Luke, its definitely better to hear it from someone with experience. I figured that the 5DII is so much more sensitive than other video cameras that it could handle a slower lens indoors. Going down to f1.4 means prime lenses and I already have some Nikons that can do the job. I'm just hoping for something to enable IS for walkaround shots. I've seen some video with the f4 zoom and it looked quite good so I figured f5.6 would only be one step darker than the f4 zoom.

The camera is amazing in low light, but you have to keep your ISO in check if you don't want grain. When I use that lens in low light the camera cranks it up to 2500 or 3200 ISO, which becomes very grainy. When I use my 50mm f1.4 or my 135 f2.0L, the ISO is below 1000.

Natural light is a totally different matter. The 28-135 is actually decent outside. It does vignette a bit at the 135 on a full frame though.

28-135IS is not a particularly good lens - it's soft wide open. I have this lens.

I guess we are getting away from the initial topic, but how does one choose a lens to make this camera behave most like a video camera? The zoom range of 28-135 is adequate for event video where the operator is expected to move. It should be fine for interviews with one to three subjects as it can get wide or zoom a bit to get a tight head shot. It wouldn't be right for sports but I'm guessing something like the 70-200mm f2.8 might be the trick? Is the 24-70 f2.8 and 70-200 f2.8 the only way to get video-like range with the 5DII without hurting image quality? Those aren't cheap lenses and changing at 70mm is not ideal. I would rather have a 35mm-105mm low f-number lens than to get stuck changing lenses at 70mm.

Is this camera prime lens workable only indoors?

I have a cheap nikon-mount 28-200 lens which I guess I could use to give me an idea of what primes I need. I guess this camera creates as many problems as it solves. How fast can lenses change? Does the camera need to re-boot between lenses? I've never used a DSLR (just film) and $3000 is a lot of money for me to spend and not have a lens setup that can work. If f5.6 is insufficient indoors then the kit f4 lens isn't all that much better so I'm not so sure I'll spring for that one.

Does anyone know if for example Nikkor 70 200 2.8 VR lens will work on Canon via adapter?
How would you control the aperture, (there is no outside aperture ring ) ?

But what about their next high-end video camcorder?

Why do I feel like we will see a significant change here to the current XL in terms of tech specs.

I mean, with the 5DMarkII out and the interest that has spawned from it, I would think Canon at least understands that their next high-end HD Camcorder (XLH2) would have to surpass the video quality that comes out of their DSLR that costs 4 times less. They can't shoot themselves in the foot like that.

So what's interesting to me is not what the next iteration of this tech will be like in their higher end 1D series SLRs, but more importantly in their next XL camera.

Imagine it having 3 35mm Full Frame HD CMOS Sensors, with something like 3.1 MegaPixels per sensor ... damn, the low light on that thing would be insane! We could probably count the individual pixels on the sensors :)

love them or hate them Canon has built their video system around their lenses... They just need to figure out a way to rig coverage into their glass.... oh yeah, they have that EF adapter already... that's foresight. Or just awareness of how their slr-business has succeeded for decades.

It is all about the glass... and it's finally in prosumer video!

Does anyone know if for example Nikkor 70 200 2.8 VR lens will work on Canon via adapter?
How would you control the aperture, (there is no outside aperture ring ) ?

You can't. The closest thing I've seen is an electrical tab on the Leica R adapter that enables the focus-beep feature which is pretty awesome I might add.

You can't. The closest thing I've seen is an electrical tab on the Leica R adapter that enables the focus-beep feature which is pretty awesome I might add.

It is available but not cheap: Using Nikon lenses on Canon cameras KenRockwell.com (http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/nikcan.htm)
Direct link to documentation: http://www.16-9.net/nikon_g/nikon_g_doc.pdf
You're welcome.

Cheers,
T