Anyone using Warm Cards from Vortex with their EXs?

Are you happy with the results?

I would be using them for interviews and outdoor/nature videography.

I shoot clean and edit in post. Optionally, filter the lens. Warm cards simply skew the already weak blue channel to be more weak, introducing more noise. I'd rather use BLUE cards, and warm the image in post.

Anyone using Warm Cards from Vortex with their EXs?

Are you happy with the results?

I would be using them for interviews and outdoor/nature videography.

I am using the Vortex version 2.0 Warm Cards and am very happy with the results. Make sure you set your exposure properly before setting White Balance. So far I have not had to readjust in post, so a great time saver. Your mileage may vary. Cheers!

I'd rather use BLUE cards, and warm the image in post.

Hmm...
Good idea Perrone.
It's well known that the blue channel with video cameras in general are noisy.
By white balancing on the blue card, this should bring the blue channel gain down minimizing blue channel noise. The real question is - will the blue channel noise floor be brought back up when white balancing in post?

We'd have to experiment and compare.

I've heard of some white balancing through magenta filters to minimize the blue channel's gain.

Also, of course shooting using CTB or using daylight balanced bulbs.

VortexMedia Warm cards ARE BLUE.

I shoot clean and edit in post. Optionally, filter the lens. Warm cards simply skew the already weak blue channel to be more weak, introducing more noise. I'd rather use BLUE cards, and warm the image in post.

Yes they would be since white balancing on those cards would decrease the blue channel gain .

I use them with the EX1 and a lot of Panasonic cameras- totally rock the house (to the point we started selling them on my web store.) You get consistency and when you want to warm things up or cool them down- especially outdoors you get a look you can expect in post. Highly recommend.

-Noah

Anyone using Warm Cards from Vortex with their EXs?

Are you happy with the results?

I would be using them for interviews and outdoor/nature videography.

Yes, I am very happy with the results. The less "tweaking" done in post the better! Works really well with warming skin tones in interviews!

Hmm...
It's well known that the blue channel with video cameras in general are noisy.


Are they noisy because of warmer white balances on 2700 or 3200K lights or do you know of another reason?

Are they noisy because of warmer white balances on 2700 or 3200K lights or do you know of another reason?

Tungsten light doesn't have much "blue" in it, so when you white balance to tungsten, the camera must boost the blue (increase gain) to compensate. This increases noise in the blue channel.

By balancing to a card that is more blue, we effectively tell the camera to reduce the gain in the blue channel, thus shifting the image more red. Had I thought about this a bit before my first post, I would have not made it. It should have the effect of reducing noise in the image somewhat.

Thanks for the feedback.

I'll order up!

I only hope the improvement isn't so dramatic that I can't use all the "Cold Card" footage I've shot to date!

By balancing to a card that is more blue, we effectively tell the camera to reduce the gain in the blue channel, thus shifting the image more red. Had I thought about this a bit before my first post, I would have not made it. It should have the effect of reducing noise in the image somewhat.

We should be using a "UNIWB" with all three color channels weighted equally, then white balancing in post from a reference. I suppose this can only take off when white balance presets can be loaded into every camcorder as can be done on DSLRs. I wonder how far off the daylight WB preset is from UNIWB.

The warm cards sound like a lovely idea, but video cameraman having been using a more flexible and dirt cheap approach for many years.

You just get a gel sample book ( you need to get the big square one) and keep it in your pouch. It has 1/8 through full for CT blue, Orang as well as Green and Magenta .

Hold it over the lens and its all you'll ever need. The green is important for getting rid of green tint. I usually use 1/4 Blue + 1/8 Green or something like that. Everyone I know carries one.

Rosco used to make a"Jungle Book" that had only the colors you need. Now you have to get the full swatch book.

Lenny Levy

We should be using a "UNIWB" with all three color channels weighted equally, then white balancing in post from a reference. I suppose this can only take off when white balance presets can be loaded into every camcorder as can be done on DSLRs. I wonder how far off the daylight WB preset is from UNIWB.

All of the vortex cards have a "UNIWB" on the back. Affectionately referred to as Video 100 IRE. That's what I use with my camera (my EX1 is tweaked to have a proper white balance). I'll never use another inkjet sheet of paper again.

Adam, you make a very import point, and that is the philosophy/methodology behind the Warm Cards... "consistency."

Using warm-cards will have a different effect than doing it in post, because:
-the gamma-curves are non-linear. So in post you would have to undo the gamma (= making it linear), change the the per-channel-gain (for making it warm), redo the gamma. But I guess it's very hard to do that accurately.
-the white-balance-per-channel-gain of the camera can cause clipping of the amplified channels. That lost information can't get restored in post.

So I guess it's a good idea to use warm-cards.

Coming late to the party... Got a set of WarmCards version 2 a few weeks ago. Have done a couple of "event video" shoots with gastly overhead office fluorescents. Got rid of the (pale skinned) January tan.

While I agree with fixing things in post, if you've got a job that you want off your plate ASAP it sure is a nice tools to have. Having used it I would call it "essential".

My first real shoot with the cards will be next weekend (who schedules an event for Valentines Day?!?) but with the tests I've done to-date, they've been nothing short of phenomenal. I love the ability to decide on a warm card, balance, check, then "upping" the warmth on the fly using another card if I'd like it a little warmer (or cooler if needed).

The best part is (I believe - haven't been here yet with the cards) when you need to turn around a DVD of the event footage with timecode burn for the client, it looks good without any additional processing. I don't even need to pull it into FCP to turn that around - just dump the RAW QT-wrapped footage into compressor, add the timecode burn, and I'm done - that means saved time and not having to convince the client that what they're looking at isn't necessarily representative of the final product - it's closer to good and it doesn't create an issue...

I just received my Vortex Warm Cards, I'm excited to try them out! Although I know it's all a matter of personal taste, but for those who use Vortex Warm Cards do you have a favorite warm card reference for indoor interview skin tones? 1/4, 1/2, 1, or 2? I'm just curious what others think... I have zippo experience with interviews and I have some coming up. I know for outside nature stuff I like the warm look, makes it look richer and less video-y to me.

Hi Buck,

Thanks for buying a set of WarmCards, I hope you love them.
I usually shoot with Warm 1 and sometimes a Warm 1/2.
When in doubt, I say use #1

Doug

Super gracias, Doug!

- El Bucko

Hi Buck,

Thanks for buying a set of WarmCards, I hope you love them.
I usually shoot with Warm 1 and sometimes a Warm 1/2.
When in doubt, I say use #1

Doug
Hi doug, i am a bit new to the warm cards, it would be good if you can post a small youtube video on how to get the best out of the warm cards, i mainly film wedding, so i would like to use my set of warm cards(during ceremony and reception setups) i purchased a set last week from you.

Over the past few months, I have shot indepth interviews of almost 70 people, all interiors, and many in crummy, empty meeting rooms in hotels. The warm cards have been a life saver. I love them and would not live without them. You cannot duplicate what these warm cards do in post. I would say that, on this project, the warm cards, Tiffen filters, and Chimera window patterns, have enhanced my scenes beyond what I could describe here.
CHIMERA Window Patterns (http://www.chimeralighting.com/dspProduct.asp?productid=33)
http://vortexmedia.com/WC_VIDEO.html

Hi doug, i am a bit new to the warm cards, it would be good if you can post a small youtube video on how to get the best out of the warm cards, i mainly film wedding, so i would like to use my set of warm cards(during ceremony and reception setups) i purchased a set last week from you.

Hi Robert,

I see your point that it might useful to post a video. In fact, I probably should have done it 8 years ago. Maybe later this summer. There's absolutly no time on the schedule right now to stop and put something together of quality.

I do have a WarmCards tutorial on my "How to Setup, Light, and Shoot Great Looking Interviews" DVD, but I don't think it would stand on it's own as an excerpt. I'll have to check.
Vortex Media: VIDEO & PHOTO Tools and Training (http://www.vortexmedia.com/DVD_ILDVD.html)

Here's a couple of reasons why I haven't made careating a video a priority.

First, the cards are so simple to use there isn't much of a tutorial to be given. You choose a shade, hold it in front of the camera, press the WB button, and start shooting. It's basically that simple. The shade of card you choose is purely subjective, so I can't really help you there. You muist decide for yourself, and your choice will vary by subject, location, client preference, and the style of your video. The more warming you want, then the higher number you should use. A Warm 1 is stronger than a Warm 1/2 and vice versa.

Second, although the results that each shooter will get are consistent and predictable with their own camera, the results will vary a little from person to person and camera to camera. For example, a Warm 1 might look one way with my EX1 and my personal picture profile -- but it might look a little different with a HVX-200 and a totally different camera setup. Thus, we avoid the trap of showing people "this is what a Warm 1 will look like" -- because that is hard to quanitify.

So, if you want a quick tutorial, here it is: :-)

1) Choose the card that will give you the level of warming that YOU want with YOUR camera. When in doubt, go with Warm 1.

2) Hold the card in front of the camera, in the same lighting that you'll be shooting under, and white balance the camera just like you would with a regular white card.

Tha'ts it.

I'll see if we can post a tutorial on the website sometime this summer. It is a good idea and should have been done years ao.

Doug

You cannot duplicate what these warm cards do in post.

Hi Brian,

Thanks for your endorsement of WarmCards. Same goes for the earlier guys who posted on this thread. That's the kind of feedback we hear over and over again.

I don't know if I would go so far as to say somebody couldn't duplicate the look in post because there's some pretty good software out there these days for that sort of thing. I know I cannot do it and it sounds like you can't either, but I'm sure it is possible.

The difference with WarmCards is that you won't have to waste time processing every shot and you won't have to wait while the filters render, etc.

Plus a lot of people don't edit their own footage, they pass it off to a client or editor. How will that footage be treated? Personally, I want my raw footage to look the way I want it to look when I shoot it and not have to wonder if someone else is going to fix it up for me. My reputation is on the line everytime I shoot. By using the right PP and the right WB and the right lens filters when I shoot, I have to filter less than 5% of all the footage I edit. I guess some people like to filter and tweak just about everything in post, but that is not a workflow I subscribe to. I've been shooting for almost 30 yeas, and during most of that time, once it was shot, it was done. I guess I'll never change that attitude.

Yes, there are other ways to trick the WB when you're shooting, but WarmCards are faster, easier (you're going to stop and WB anyway, right?), predictable so you don't need a monitor, durable, professional looking, and have been proven over and over again.

Doug

All of the vortex cards have a "UNIWB" on the back ... I'll never use another inkjet sheet of paper again.

A heart-felt 'me to' on that one.

A while back I did a side by side test in various tricky WB settings (large office space with daylight, Fluorescents and tungsten all mixed together) using a blank bit of photocopier paper, some bits of paper on a white clipboard, the white card from the warm card set, and some other random bits of white (roll of gaffer, etc). In the group of five of us there, four of us agreed the white card was by far the best, and the fifth one was colour blind.

I've used it ever since with the exception of getting two or three cameras of the same make and model together, where I want consistency over accuracy.

I must admit I don't often (as in hardly ever) use the warm settings since switching to the EX1.

Hi Robert,


I do have a WarmCards tutorial on my "How to Setup, Light, and Shoot Great Looking Interviews" DVD, but I don't think it would stand on it's own as an excerpt. I'll have to check.
Vortex Media: VIDEO & PHOTO Tools and Training (http://www.vortexmedia.com/DVD_ILDVD.html)


Doug

Hi Doug, yes i got that DVD the other week, and that is what prompted me to get a set of cards. Thanks for the info.

I must admit I don't often (as in hardly ever) use the warm settings since switching to the EX1.[/QUOTE]

Are you saying that there is no need to use the warm cards with the EX1?

I must admit I don't often (as in hardly ever) use the warm settings since switching to the EX1.

Are you saying that there is no need to use the warm cards with the EX1?[/QUOTE]

Thats what I thought Matt meant as well.

I don't use the warm cards as I've got my PP set up just how I like it (with 'a hint of Fujichrome'). But I use the white card from the warm cards. That's been a constant part of my kit for a few years now.

Thanks Matt.

The warm cards are just a way to offset your white balance. You can get the same result as you do with a warm card by changing the white balance offset in your picture profile. Actually more control than picking from just a couple cards.

The XDCAM series cameras give you a lot of control over this type of setting. If you're using a prosumer camera - by all means get the warm cards because you can't do it in camera. That's one reason I paid more for a better camera.

The fewer things I have to tug along the better...

Hey Matt, I just ordered the warm cards for my ex1. If its not too much trouble, what are the details of your PP you were referring to?

Hey Matt, I just ordered the warm cards for my ex1. If its not too much trouble, what are the details of your PP you were referring to?

Big debate on another thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/1143442-post16.html

The warm cards are just a way to offset your white balance. You can get the same result as you do with a warm card by changing the white balance offset in your picture profile.

I'm learning this stuff so I'm not really qualified to comment (but that's never stopped me before, ha!), but from what I've been reading in these threads is that manual balance *not* the same thing as changing the white balance temp in the PP. Probably pretty close, but not the same. If I understand correctly, when you manually white balance off a card it changes all the color temperature values based on the existing conditions to achieve the correct values, whereas changing in the color temp value in camera in a PP it makes assumptions that may or may not be as accurate.

Also, as I now use Warm Cards, I can see how off I was many times. In some late evening shadow conditions it's not uncommon to have values over 1100 and I don't think I was ever going over 7000 before. It really warms up skin tones even in cool shadows. And it's wonderfully consistent to use the WarmCards®. Ah lawk 'em alawt.

manual balance *not* the same thing as changing the white balance temp in the PP. Probably pretty close, but not the same. If I understand correctly, when you manually white balance off a card it changes all the color temperature values based on the existing conditions to achieve the correct values, whereas changing in the color temp value in camera in a PP it makes assumptions that may or may not be as accurate

Absolutely.

There's a few circumstances when using a WB in PP is advantageous, but the most accurate setting will come from a proper WB off a proper WB card (even if it is a warm card).

Warm Card = Accurate? Compared to what? Wouldn't accurate be a true white balance?

You're doing an electronic white balance - you're not using a filter to adjust the image.

When "tricking" an electronic white balance with something that is not white - what parameter inside the camera do you think is changing? What is the difference if you change it with a card or actually go in and change that parameter manually - except that doing it manually you can change it from -99 to +99 instead of just 4 choice you get with the cards.

I think instead of accurate - consistent might be what was meant, but a manual offset will be just as consistent. After you select an offset for the white balance in the camera you're going to white balance on a white card so it will be based on the lighting conditions present at that time - just like using a warm card - except you can choose the exact amount you want to warm (or cool) the image. You are affecting the same circuitry with either method except you're saving $100 doing it manually. (that's not going to make any friends here - I better put on my flame resistant suit.)

If you don't believe me - try it...

Sony techs will tell you the same thing, check this link out:

Sony Business Solutions & Systems - Featured (http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/ext/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/NAB2009/videos.shtml)

Then look for the video
"Sony Camera Tips - Uncovering creative possibilities with Juan Martinez."

Maybe this guy doesn't know anything - he's probably just selling something.

Some of the other videos on this page are worth watching too!

I hate "tit for tat" that happens on these forums, so that's all I'm going to say.

Howdy Kevin. I'm not seeing any tit-for-tat? If so, I missed it and I apologize if you felt that was what I was doing (not sure if you were even referring to my comments). If what you're referring to is doing a white balance on a white card, then warming it from there for a PP, then I'd bet you're correct. I was talking about what I was doing before... merely dialing in let's say 5600 in a PP and always using that for daylight. Or going to 6500 to make it look warmer, just by the dial and saving it.

If you white balance from a 'white' card each time and then making it warmer to taste by dialing a higher temp and saving it, that to me would be taking a lot of extra time/steps each time I wanted to white balance. Using a (let's say) 1/2 WarmCard would, to me, seem much quicker/simpler if I wanted the same, consistent results in various lighting conditions. But admittedly I may be misunderstanding you (and definitely not tit-for-tatting, ha!). I think for $79 having a set of cards giving me a consistent choice, with the time they save me, is one of my better purchases. But that's just me. And besides the time saved, my color results are better than I was getting before. I guess I just feel more confident that I'm getting a good consistent balance from shot to shot.

Sony techs will tell you the same thing, check this link out:

Sony Business Solutions & Systems - Featured (http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/ext/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/NAB2009/videos.shtml)

Then look for the video
"Sony Camera Tips - Uncovering creative possibilities with Juan Martinez."



Thanks Kevin for the link - plenty of interesting stuff! The only problem is the video stalls at some 25 mins (or so) into it... Always at the same moment in time. Or is it just my connection?

Thanks for the links!
Great info.

This entire, lengthy thread, proves one thing . . . shooting movies, whether in video or film, is subjective. What looks good to one person is not necessarily what looks good to another person. Personally, I love the warm cards. I use the blue ones on most interviews. I get an "instant" preview of what the skin tones are going to look like by holding the various shades of blue in front of the camera. Can you have several shades of warming "instantly" with camera settings? NO you cannot. I find that people who are talking negatively about the warm cards are those people who have never used them. By taking a white balance reading with a white card, you are getting a scene that is "flat as a pancake". If that is what you want fine. Better you than me. Audio, lighting, WB, etc. etc. should all be gotten as good as possible on location. To simply say, "I'll fix it in post" is not my philosophy. If it is yours, then good luck.

Warm cards, Tiffen Filters, & cucaloris window patterns have enhanced the look of my interviews. I would say that they have saved me many times.

Vortex Media: VIDEO & PHOTO Tools and Training (http://vortexmedia.com/WC_VIDEO.html)
CHIMERA Window Patterns (http://www.chimeralighting.com/dspProduct.asp?productid=33)

I get an "instant" preview of what the skin tones are going to look like by holding the various shades of blue in front of the camera. Can you have several shades of warming "instantly" with camera settings? NO you cannot.

Extremely good point, Brian.

By taking a white balance reading with a white card, you are getting a scene that is "flat as a pancake".

While I totally agree with your arguments on perception, your sentence above reveals a bias against accurate white balance. Most people seek this perfection for the punch it provides. If your output/monitoring devices use a white point that is bluer than usual, it's possible that you're using the blue cards to compensate for this. Ambient lighting and wall colors that are very warm will alter the perception even more.

If you want to use warm cards fine, but arguing over their superiority for accurate white balance is debatable.

Cameraman have been using many techniques for this for decades. The simplest is to carry a swatchbook with color correction filters in your pocket - that's where the idea for warm cards came from. I always carry one.

Likewise adjusting the color correction menus in the PP settings of an EX-1 can be extremely fast, and is my favorite method as I don't need to keep changing white balances.

And of course there is the good old fashioned paint box if you have one.

Whatever workflow you prefer.

If you want to use warm cards fine, but arguing over their superiority for accurate white balance is debatable.

Very true and I second that.
There are so many ways to skin this cat. There really isn't a right or wrong way, or better or worse, as long as you get the look you want and you know how to get it no one can tell you you're wrong, but it is good to hear the different methods that people use and it is up to each one to see what fits their work flow the best. It is a question of habit and what you are comfortable with (and often proven techniques). Each method has its ups and downs. In the past I used to change the PP, and I got what I wanted. The benefits of this way is that you don't need to rely on placing your card in the right spot to white balance it, like in certain events where you have no access to the main stage to get the correct reading for your warm cards and you might find that you are in a spot where there isn't enough light to establish your white balance cards while you can tweak the PP to your hearts desire. But sometimes I just needed a fast solution and in certain light conditions this can get tricky in PP especially if you don't carry with you a proper monitor as I wasn't always certain what is the right look I was looking for (or just basic white) or have enough time to tweak it in PP (other people might be better in deciding and tweaking on the spot with PP, I'm actually sure of it). I also used to carry on with me a color set from a paint shop, and that helped me as well a few times, as there is a lot more choice of colors to choose from. But I really like the vortex warm cards and never leave home without it. They are really well made, durable (very well protected) and the choice of colors is for my taste (perhaps not someone else's), and perhaps this can create sometimes a certain laziness instead of extra tweaking and experimenting for my own perfect right look. But sometimes I just need the look I know and like and I know how to get it fast. in this way the warm cards are very reliable - as I know what color to expect every time I use them, and almost always I'm very satisfied with the results (for others the same can also be said about PP, and you can often get nice surprises with PP which are not easily achieved with cards). But it all ends in the end with each persons own taste and uses.

On a last note concerning the original first post. As for filming with warm cards in interviews and outdoors, they work great. That said, PP adjustment is also really easy and fast in those situations. They both equally turn out great results as long as you know the look you are looking for.

I've just started experimenting with warming cards and I have been very happy with the results. I use the lightest blue card and it is just adding a healthy warm tone to the skin. It is very subtle. I am using it with my two matched VariCams also.

Over the past few months, I have shot indepth interviews of almost 70 people, all interiors, and many in crummy, empty meeting rooms in hotels. The warm cards have been a life saver. I love them and would not live without them. You cannot duplicate what these warm cards do in post. I would say that, on this project, the warm cards, Tiffen filters, and Chimera window patterns, have enhanced my scenes beyond what I could describe here.
CHIMERA Window Patterns (http://www.chimeralighting.com/dspProduct.asp?productid=33)
Vortex Media: VIDEO & PHOTO Tools and Training (http://vortexmedia.com/WC_VIDEO.html)

I'm totally with you on this, Brian, and think you make the best point here: "You can not duplicate what these warm cards do in post." I also use specific Tiffen filters and Chimera window patterns, etc., if I'm shooting interviews.

The consistency of warm cards is a godsend.

Back when I was shooting with Ike D and E cameras (long time ago!), I used the blue gels to warm the scenes. These were always reliable, but the color temperature tended to vary depending on distance from lens during the balance and reflectance. The cards are always spot-on.

I have the large and small versions, but I tend to use the small ones more because I can pack them for traveling more easily.

I purchased (at huge expense I may add) a set of DSC warm cards some time ago. Five? Six years ago?

I lost them on a shoot a couple of weeks ago. Mea Culpa - it was one of those shoots, set up, pull down, set up, pull down. Somebody found them and probably chucked them.

Well, despite the horrible cost, I have ordered my new set.

I simply cannot be without them. But this time, I got the cards from Vortex rather than DSC. Will be interesting to see how their Fluorescent cards work as that's something I could have done with over the years.

For the disbelievers: a bit of white paper is NOT a white balance. Check out the DSC white balance, and I hope the Vortex is just as good.

Leonard,

You are so right about the big square Lee filter book. I was taught to use that book by a great director/DP about 12 years ago, and I'm on my second book, the first one still around but a bit beat up.

At one point it was hard to find the square book as they were giving away one about 2/3 as wide which won't quite cut it.

I also find that 1/4 blue and 1/8 green often does wonders for flesh tones, and with this book you can tweak away until you get exactly what you want, obviously provided that you have an accurate and well-calibrated monitor!

Tip

I purchased (at huge expense I may add) a set of DSC warm cards some time ago. Five? Six years ago?

For the disbelievers: a bit of white paper is NOT a white balance. Check out the DSC white balance, and I hope the Vortex is just as good.

Matt, I use the Vortex Media Warm cards and use the white balance card on the back of the warm cards. They are just great. Warmcards also come with a set whiuch are pocket size, and I keep these with me all the time in my camera bag. The lightest blue card works a treat for talking heads, as someone else has already mentioned.