We've noticed over the past while many comments on this and other forums about people imitating our look, or copying specific shots. These observations have been posted by many others in many other threads- not by us- so I say this as something we have seen a lot of others saying.

I feel our 'look' is a blend of how we shoot, how we see, and how we put it all together. To me, just using a steadicam doesn't mean your doing a StillMotion look- but using it for the exact same shots on purpose would be.

The following are some thoughts I wrote in reply to another thread where somebody asked why our look shouldn't be copied when it looks so 'fabulous'. As this is a rather popular issue, I thought others might like to know what we think.

We deeply care about our work and our couples and we are creating art uniquely for them. If something is copied, it is something we personally don't enjoy, and something that that I feel infringes upon what we are creating for our couples and lessens it.

We love to share, inspire, and educate- and we hope we can do so through sharing our work.

So, why not to use the StillMotion look?

1. because using an SM look isn't original, and originality makes our jobs more meaningful and our products more valuable

2. We hope we inspire others and it helps them to grow and find their own look- not simply imitate ours.

3. we put our work out there to share with others and hopefully inspire many who view it. as it gets copied more and more, we need to hold more back, and as a result those who enjoy our work and are inspired by it lose out

4. as an industry, i think we will develop much slower and with much less diversity if we all look to imitate whats hot at the time

5. our shots are thought out to fit into the sequence, to mean something to the couple, and to add to the overall piece. all of that context and meaning is lost if you take a shot and try to replicate it in another scenario.

6. StillMotion wouldn't be StillMotion if they imitated Jason Magbanua every time they went out. We have a great respect for his vision, unique style, and amazing talent but for us to imitate his look would have been a disrespect to both him and ourselves. Do you want to be the original or the knockoff?

Thanks for listening.

P.

Hi Patrick,

Personally, while I think your points are valid, I believe you have to evolve rather than dissuade imitators. By putting yourself out there and proclaiming success you've set yourself up for imitation. It happens in every industry, but the ones that thrive are constantly reinventing themselves. I have no doubt you'll do the same.

Some good notes on why copying is not great.

I am a believer that the images should come from the couples that you are shooting and getting their images and try to capture their style and their story both in composition of the shots and editing.

I am certainly inspired by all other professionals from relating to video and photography and sometimes certain shots may come through which sometimes can't be helped because at that particular moment the shot fits the best and it may not be intentional, its just a shot that works but we all evolve as we shoot more and more and see the images in our own unique way.

I think sharing our work is great tool to learn from each other and help to point out to think out of the box and how to maybe attack a situation, shot etc...learning from others and practising is how we get better.

Hi Patrick,

Excellent points. I think Joel has it right. Every industry has its star players and their style is bound to be imitated. The way these players remain on top though, is by continuing to out-innovate the competition. I think you will continue to do that. The iPod (although not the first mp3 player in the world) is a prime example. There are many imitators, but these imitators never fully catch up. Just when they do, Apple releases another iPod. You can never get ahead by copying.

Sure, if you thought the stillmotion style was static and had reached its creative peak, then you might have something to worry about.

Patrick, how would you define the StillMotion style? What is it that makes your films... yours? Is it specific shots? Is it a sequence of events?

If imitators are merely copying a specific shot, or series of shots, then they miss the point. I think what attracts clients isn't that you can do a certain "ring shot" or that you can follow them with a steadicam. It's that you can create a film that is uniquely theirs and reflects who they are.

I thought I'd post a quote for discussion purposes:

"Bad artists copy. Great artists steal." - Pablo Picasso

Luke

I've seen many videos that had a stillmotion look to them. BUT, they didn't have the stillmotion flair and feel.

I can relate this to bboyin (breakdancing) and what has taken place as far as "biting" (copying) in the scene and it's impact on the bboy community as a whole.

Someone creates a super incredible move. Its bit. Over and over again. Until that move is now a move that has become standardize. With that comes the recognition of the creator of the move. Is the creator still doing that move or are they developing it to another height? Sometimes the answer is yes and sometimes it is no. What has happened is that the whole scene has now benefited from that one person's hard work and creativity. Fair? Most of the time, no. But now they go down in the history books as a major contributor to the art form. A legacy that outlives you.

You'll have people just straight bite, no innovation, just a carbon copy. Then you'll have others tweak it and make it their own because they were inspired by their moves and their style and used it as building blocks. I'm sure your post is directed to the former. A few great bboys have been coined biters of another bboy but then they flipped their style up and went on to look original themselves. The bboy they originally copied ends up looking completely different years later so when you compare them at that time, they don't even look alike!

With that said, no one can do the SM style as good as you guys so don't worry about that. "Often imitated, never duplicated" is the cliche that comes to my mind. ;)

Sorry for the long post, thought I'd just comment from a different perspective.

Personally I am really glad this has been brought up.

Without naming and shaming, an award-winning company here in the UK completely and utterly carbon-copied some still-motion ideas, and when i pointed this out, the comment was predictably ignored (they also copied my exact title-sequence).

also, (and I am not even 'slightly' in a 'SM-league'), i very rarely post highlights clips anymore (on blogs and forums) as EXACT techiques I've got excited about and developed, have been copied. This annoyance is slightly reduced when the 'copycat' actually asks me directly in an email 'how did i do that because they'd like to do something similar'. In comparison to the people i've caught doing it on the sly, at least they are being man enough to ask.

without a doubt we are all 'influenced' (e.g. the 'MTV' edit-approach, old-film look, gliding, DOF shots), but clip-copies are just quite low IMO.

There are a handful of companies like Still Motion that I quietly list to myself as being the world's best. And I certainly don't sit there thinking I'll copy their shots and styles, I simply think 'they're big, i hope to big like that one day too'. But that means improving my own quirky style that has seemingly got me my business :)

StillMotion wouldn't be StillMotion if they imitated Jason Magbanua every time they went out.

I looked at the last clip on Jason's site and first thought the guy was in your team. :)
I too have seen really great weddingclips here but as you said, a lot of them look alike. I think everybody, even you, will eventually use something in their production that they have seen from others and that even could be on a subconscious level. That can be from other weddingvideographers but also a certain shot or cameramove from a big movie.

Only with weddings and especially what you guys do it becomes more obvious when someone copies you and I can imagine that if the guy that copies only charges half the price you charge a client might ask what the difference is then. And you can be sure the other one also deeply care about their work and their couples.

As I see it nobody has a copyright on a certain cameramove or the way they display the rings in a shot, you always will have trendsetters and trendfollowers. f.i. I saw a video from a guy who used his tripod as some kind of glidetrack by balancing his camera on 2 tripodlegs instead of 3 enabling him to make slow moving and gliding shots. well, i have been using that technique for a while now and I get great shots out of it. As a soloshooter I have to use creative methods with the limited equipment I have since I don't have a glidecam or 35mm adapter.

Does this make me a copycat? strictly yes but I don't see any reason of reinventing the wheel each time. On the other hand I would never carboncopy the style from another videographer entirely. I just pick up a lot from different places and add some own style to it to make it unique again.

well put Noa. and also very funny to read:

"a guy who used his tripod as some kind of glidetrack by balancing his camera on 2 tripodlegs instead of 3 enabling him to make slow moving and gliding shots"

i've been doing exactly that for ages now, in parts of the day when i don't have my trusty glidetrack to hand!! haha, who was first, you or me :) :)

well put Noa. and also very funny to read:


you have to take into consideration that English is not my native language but I do my best :D

You try to write Dutch, now that would be funny ;)

Noa, sorry for the misunderstanding but I didn't meant how you wrote, i meant about the tripod with 2 legs technique that we evidently both do :)

Noa, sorry for the misunderstanding but I didn't meant how you wrote, i meant about the tripod with 2 legs technique that we evidently both do :)

Oops, I misunderstood it alright, no problem.

Patrick; about your comment: "our shots are thought out to fit into the sequence, to mean something to the couple, and to add to the overall piece. all of that context and meaning is lost if you take a shot and try to replicate it in another scenario."

I have looked at many of the short clips on your site and I really would be interested in seeing a completed dvd from you guys, your clips are usually highly visually entertaining and you are right about them fitting into a sequence, but i don't see how that a particular sequence would loose it's meaning once it is copied?

As I see it it's just a visual thing but I never saw a story behind your clips, that's why seeing a completed dvd might change that perspective.

Patrick,
I'm personally very surprised to hear this from you. I understand your perspective to a point, but you certainly must understand that even if lesser mortals like us attempt a shot by shot copy of your work, it would fall short for several reasons. Number one, I'm not paying 7k for a pilot setup and brevis. I'm not paying the best shooters and editors I can find, and I'm not getting top dollar for my videos, so I'm not putting the hours into color grading and other things. We in this business do not suffer from competition, we suffer from the ignorance of our customer to the need for our product. I will also leave you with this. The greatest in our industry educate on a shot by shot copy basis. If you go to a Vonlanken workshop, they teach you how to shoot and edit like them on a shot by shot basis. Could anyone detract from their work by copying it? I don't think anyone has even though every year there are thousands of new devotees that have all of the secrets and attempt it. I say don't be so sensitive about your work, imitation is the sincerest for of flattery. No way without a monstrous investment in equipment, time, and talent could anyone try and then they would probably still fall short...
Bill

I'm glad this started a good discussion.

Joel- I completely agree with you. My point or intent in dissuading others is for their own benefit, more so than ours.

I think our style is what it is because we put so much into what we do, into always making it better, into giving it more meaning for the couple and their family. To try and copy something may be the easy way out but I really feel it can hold you back, makes the job and the work you produce much less meaningful. To me, that is very important, and I think it is a huge part in really pushing yourself to produce the best you can.

P.

Bill,

My concern is not that others will copy our work shot for shot and do it as well or better. In looking at the points I put down, they are all about why it is bad for you to copy our work, not why it is bad for us. We certainly don't enjoy it, but we live with it and continue to evolve ourselves.

If you go to a Vonlanken workshop, they teach you how to shoot and edit like them on a shot by shot basis. Could anyone detract from their work by copying it?

I'm not sure if this is actually true or not, but I know for our workshop, the focus will be on helping everybody with techniques, helping them see things in a different way, giving them a new set of tools to work with, and most importantly, inspiring them to grow in their own work.

P.

Patrick,
You certainly must understand that the people that try to copy you are on the first stage of a long journey. No one is going to be able to do it for a long time, nor would they want to even if they could. Your points are valid enough, but can you imagine the difficulty of someone just starting out in this business of having to try and do anything original without using influences. I think your fears are unfounded, and I think this point of argument discourages people from experimentation. You set the bar very high and make yourself very diffcult to copy. I steal a shot or two from you here or there, but that's what all art forms are about. All musicians, painters, photographers, etc. take bits and pieces of the people that have influenced them to make something different. It is stifling to the art of what we do to say "don't you dare copy me". It also comes across as a bit defensive. and I have been to the VonLanken workshop, these things are so.
Bill

Hey Patrick,

I still remember speaking to you in Montreal, and being impressed at how open you were with answers to my questions. I respected you for that, and was grateful for your time.

As well, I've watched your stuff over and over, and have been inspired by it. I think it's made a difference in my shooting and editing, though I don't remember trying to actually copy anything directly. Perhaps the best thing about seeing your work is that it rekindles excitement for what I do. It's easy to get bogged down feeling "damn, ANOTHER wedding", and your stuff reminds me that we can think out of the box, and try new stuff all the time. I thank you for that.

we need to hold more back, and as a result those who enjoy our work and are inspired by it lose out

I think it's impossible to hold back. Like it or not, you have high visibility and a great name. Holding back limits what prospective customers can see as well, which can only be bad. And do you really want to be viewed by your peers as some sensitive star who's peeved that someone stole your ideas?

Yes, some will copy you. So what? If you haven't moved on to something better by then, well, then you're just part of the crowd and will fade away. Tough luck, right?

But somehow I don't see StillMotion frozen in a style, refusing to innovate. Just won't happen. As Bill quotes, "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." Enjoy the notoriety, you've earned it.

All the best,
Vito

Patrick,
You certainly must understand that the people that try to copy you are on the first stage of a long journey. No one is going to be able to do it for a long time, nor would they want to even if they could. Your points are valid enough, but can you imagine the difficulty of someone just starting out in this business of having to try and do anything original without using influences. I think your fears are unfounded, and I think this point of argument discourages people from experimentation. You set the bar very high and make yourself very diffcult to copy. I steal a shot or two from you here or there, but that's what all art forms are about. All musicians, painters, photographers, etc. take bits and pieces of the people that have influenced them to make something different. It is stifling to the art of what we do to say "don't you dare copy me". It also comes across as a bit defensive. and I have been to the VonLanken workshop, these things are so.
Bill

Bill,

I didn't suggest not being influenced, I certainly do hope we influence and inspire. I am also not saying 'don't you dare copy me', I am saying 'please think before you copy us, others, or yourself'.

Your certainly welcome to disagree. I hope you would notice that this same sentiment has been echoed more than a dozen times in the past couple weeks by other people on various forums, so I felt it would be a good time to say what we thought.

P.

Patrick,
I personally haven't seen anyone say anything similar to this. I have seen many posts about outright stealing of clips and reposting them etc. but never anyone as prominant as yourself asking people not to copy you. I know if I had myself in your position, I would encourage if not dare people to try and copy me, just to demonstrate how difficult it is. At this point, I'm not even confident enough in my work to post it on this forum. So, you have to know how this comes accross. I guess I am just dissapointed to hear it to say the least.
Bill

Patrick don't you take your influences (or copying as you seem to like to call it) from photography and photographers. Your post angers me patrick and i feel insults alot of great wedding videographer contributors to this forum

If you were to have a wedding video that was "stillmotion inspired..." this is frowned upon by stillmotion however you are happy to be inspired by the unique work and look of a Tim Burton film ("Sweeney Todd Inspired…" is the heading of one of your recent blog posts)

Stillmotion has a workshop "the evolution experience // from videographer to cinematographer - the three-day workshop" So how do you evolve these videographers into cinematographers, maybe you show them the wonders of steadicam and 35mm adaptors, or perhaps techniques that give more cinematic results. at the end of this three day workshop do you tell them - oh but by the way we don't actually want you using these techniques because thats kinda our thing

I don't shoot weddings, and I don't even know what the Still Motion look is - but I know what the "Ken Burns" look is. I know how he influenced an entire industry. I know that there are EFFECTS called 'the Ken Burns Effect' - which are basically pan and scan programs for dealing with still images.

Ken Burns didn't invent motion controll over still images. He didn't invent the approach of using talking heads and still images for B-Roll. But Ken Burns STYLE is uniquely Ken Burns. Sure, people can do this documentary 'in the Ken Burns Style' - even though it existed before Ken Burns made "The Civil War" - his skill with these tools was so deep and exquisite, and more importantly his skill with TELLING A STORY - actually attached his name to the process. Now, he enjoys the marketing benefits of everyone else using his name to describe a process they are going to attempt to emulate.


But nobody else is going to BE Ken Burns, or carry his reputation.


Just my thoughts on cost/benefit of fame.

I don't know if I am alone on this one. I have 2-3 Brides asking me if I can copy the Still Motion look. It just shows the impact of Still Motion and the market they created. With no disrespect to Still Motion, if I were to copy a shooting style, I would copy Mark Von Lanken's, one I think we shoot the same way and the videos shot by Still Motion and Jmag is hard for a traditional videographer like me to copy.

I peronally think that imitation is the greatest flattery. It's also a challenge for shooters like Still Motion and Jmag to continually evolve.

My 2 cents.

I think there's still a bit of misunderstanding here. I don't believe Patrick is saying "Don't copy us... or else," nor is he saying being inspired by others is a bad thing. I believe he's merely explaining the cons of copying his work for us, not him. He is also advocating finding your own style is more beneficial, which is very hard to argue with. Who out there wouldn't rather have their own style than strive to imitate someone else?

Obviously the Still Motion team is extremely skilled and continuing to evolve. They will no doubt stay busy for years, and years, and years, regardless of how many of us are knocking off their work. But wouldn't it be better to have other videographers trying to copy your style than measure your own success by how closely you got your last wedding to resemble the last Still Motion posting?

Thanks Matthew- that is exactly what I wanted to say but I don't think I am getting it across. I appreciate you putting that down.

P.

3. we put our work out there to share with others and hopefully inspire many who view it. as it gets copied more and more, we need to hold more back, and as a result those who enjoy our work and are inspired by it lose out

Don't stop posting I haven't gotten to steal anything yet!!! ; )

I think all the posts in here are valid ones, which doesn't leave me with much to say. I do know that some have taken Patrick's post the wrong way though, which is easy to happen over the internet. Anyhow, I believe the main point is don't try to BE someone, try to be LIKE them. No matter what you will NEVER be them. In other words, in an artistic business you just need to remmeber that you have your own style (or developing one). If you strictly copy someone it will always be frowned upon, and to me, that is no longer art.

JS

The moral of this thread:
Don't display your BEST work online and NEVER show off your signature shots over the internet! Show it only to the prospective bride when she meets you face to face.

You'll be very shocked at how people will copy, make it better, then claim the idea was theirs. It happens all the time.

Totally agree with John. What a shame that this thread has been taken the wrong way.

We need to make a point that there is a difference between being inspired and going out of your way to copy an exact shot, which is out of place with your own developing style.

I use glidecams and now dof adaptors, but I know for a fact that Patrick wouldn't see that as me using the 'stillmotion look', coz that's not what he's saying. And besides, I truly wanted those bits of equipment before I even knew about stillmotion, and also i'd say use them in different ways too.

Don't display your BEST work online and NEVER show off your signature shots over the internet!

I have to disagree with this Warren.

Show it only to the prospective bride when she meets you face to face.

Who will only meet you face to face if she's seen your best stuff and your signature shots. What kind of bride will meet you if you post a demo but say you left the best out?

You'll be very shocked at how people will copy, make it better, then claim the idea was theirs. It happens all the time.

Well yeah. But that's their lack of imagination leading them to copy instead of striking out on their own. But you're right...

Patrick - I'd love to know what specifically set this off? I mean right before you posted your original comments, what did you read or what spurred you feel the need to throw your opinion out there? Something had to spark that action because to the rest of us it seemed to come out of left field and I think that's in part why people have reacted strongly to your statements. Just curious about the genesis of this thread.

I make no bones about the fact that we didn't begin down the path to where we are today till I saw what Josh Smith was doing in my market and thought to myself, "now why aren't we doing that?" It just made sense to change our business to that type of model because it was way better than what we were doing. Have we caught and passed him? Not even close, same as the guys who saw what you were doing and tried to raise their game to match but we definitely raised our game because we saw a better way and I've got too much pride as a video guy to let someone completely wipe the floor with me visually.

Now marketing and business... that's a different story, and that's where you guys like Still Motion have no need to fear. We turn out good videos, but you guys KILL at marketing and selling your product. That's where you'll always have an advantage over people and don't under estimate that. We all might have 35mm adapters, stedicams, nice edits, good color grading and anything else we see the top dogs doing but the real kings of this industry understand how to run a good business and frankly, that's a lot harder to figure out than how Patrick got a certain shot we like.

In any community of artists, the masters shine through and you'll have a tier of really good artists just below them who can't help but be influenced by what they see. Whether we realize it or not, by coming to these forums and seeing what other people are doing we're being influenced, either by shooting or editing techniques, or by seeing a service someone offers that we never thought of, or any number of 1000 different ways. Styles evolve, pick up things along the way, drop bits that no longer belong and when intermingled with 100's of others many will begin to look similar. Just look at how far this industry has come visually in the past 5 years and tell me this is somehow a bad thing?

I'm sure it sucks to be the guy who thought of it first only to see your work lose a little of it's uniqueness because other's have seen it and picked up on some of it, but that's inevitable when you've become successful. I wouldn't fear that other's are hindering themselves by emulating what they see in your work, if anything its helping them to try something new. They might start out copying what you do, just as we did with Josh's work a couple years back, but eventually over time you find your own style and voice. I don't see how someone could copy another artist without forming their own style unless they're doing a shot for shot recreation of one of your videos which at a live event would be impossible.

I've been typing this for far too long and have lost my way. At this point I'm just rambling so I'll just stop now.

Hey Richard, your post made me laugh! in a good way.....

I don't personally see the point in copying anyones style. I get my inspiration from many sources, and personally don't worship anyone for what they can or cannot do.

I think their will always be similarities in many peoples work due to the fact that most or everything has been tried and done and copied, extended already.

It is good to create your own style you are comfortable with it and we all progress and are at different stages in that progression. I am still developing my style, omitting and adding things as I go along and I am sure many others are doing the same.

I like many styles of work, and think they all have a place. It is so easy to make our demos look impressive for the web, but the bottom line is are the clients happy. What is the finished product really like.

I see many great examples of work on the web, but when viewing them at an awards ceremony etc, they fall far short. What happened. Well it was a montage, the best bits, but the main wedding fell to pieces!

Just my thoughts.........right or wrong.

Cheers.

Honestly,

We had no earthly idea what was going on in the wedding video world.

When we created our company, we wanted to be better than the norm locally, but didn't really know what that meant. We started to think outside of the box. We googled some of the world's greatest still photographers to see if there were any interesting points of view or shots that might look great for a wedding video.

Then we came across this website, joined to expose ourselves to people passionate enough about this field to join a message board, and learned about StillMotion.

Seeing StillMotion's work was an eye-opening experience for us, as we had no clue that people in this industry were creating such great looking wedding films. And this extends far beyond StillMotion. We have our favorite contributors to this board and we also watch just about everyone's clips, just to see how everyone else is thinking outside of the box and to appreciate what they are doing and their bravery for trying new things.

StillMotion really just opened our eyes to the fact that we aren't restricted or limited to what we can shoot. They let us know that we have freedom with what we shoot and that there are no parameters to shooting a wedding. Which is awesome. We owe a whole lot to StillMotion for letting us know that it's okay to use our limitless creativity with a wedding.

Don't get me wrong, we were striving for creativity before we knew about StillMotion, but we thought there were sort of industry-standard regulations. If that makes sense.

Before we knew about StillMotion, we'd started to rethink our whole approach and the way we look at a couple and their wedding. But StillMotion really gave us a scope of how vast creativity can carry us in this market. Today, we are so excited and chomping at the bit to do each wedding we get, as we see it as another opportunity to try to be better and to come up with fun shots and things we can be proud of.

If someone said "Hey, you guys look like StillMotion." We'd feel honored by the comparison, but I think we'd be pretty heartbroken as well, since we're really trying to become what we will be in this industry. We'd rather have someone say, "You guys are almost as good as StillMotion," meaning, our quality is up there, but our vision/approach/style is our own.

To be on the other side of the coin, as StillMotion is, I do feel like I would feel like Patrick. In other words, this is really our thing and it works for us.

We would love to inspire other fimmakers to approach a wedding with more creativity and an open mind. We would take issue with and be frustrated by others flat out copying us since they are not getting the fact that a fimmaking style is personal and evolving. And that they should focus on their own evolution as they study all of the styles that are out there and find their own.

In my extremely humble opinion :)

Patrick don't you take your influences (or copying as you seem to like to call it) from photography and photographers. Your post angers me patrick and i feel insults alot of great wedding videographer contributors to this forum


Brian- your jumping the gun just a bit here. Please re-read the original post. I think inspiration is great, it is the flat out copying that I don't agree with, and I am posting this in terms of how it hurts you to copy us, not how it hurts us.

Yes we are inspired by many, and our photographers are certainly among them, but they inspire us- we don't try and directly copy them.

You are using the words interchangeably- I am not- and it is the distinction between the two that is at the heart of this whole thread.

P.

Patrick - I'd love to know what specifically set this off? I mean right before you posted your original comments, what did you read or what spurred you feel the need to throw your opinion out there? Something had to spark that action because to the rest of us it seemed to come out of left field and I think that's in part why people have reacted strongly to your statements. Just curious about the genesis of this thread.

Hi Ethan,

It was Travis' post about his demo. Several people mentioned that it looked too much like StillMotion while Travis said he was inspired by us, but that this was his own style. The actual post that set it off was by somebody else suggesting that there is nothing wrong with copying us because we are 'fabulous'.

Travis' demo is awesome, and I am happy we have inspired him- but I certainly don't think he is copying us. That distinction is what is at the core of this thread, which many people seem to be overlooking.

P.

Maybe I am missing the point here, but there are a lot of creative people out here who have no intention of copying your style Patrick, or wish to either!

You created your style from inspiration from various sources, and whilst you are posting here there will be many others creating their own unique style.

It is good to let people praise your work, but don't praise yourself! Pride will destroy all you have accomplished if your not careful.

Crumbs, now I'm starting to preach...I'll shut up.....

Cheers.

Patrick, and dear colleagues.

I can relate to a great degree to original post.

We are in Wedding, Event Videography Techniques thread!
We deal with, talk about repetitive events. What does it mean? What are implications?

A "repetiton", a pattern is in the core of our business and creatively "an art" form.

By definition "a copy of an art piece can never be art in the true sense of the word".
Paradoxically, that includes the author himself! Can an artist, once creating an art form,
stay with it a long time,repeat it? The answer is easy, NO, no way.
Any predictability, reflects a model, that can be easily imitated by many followers and creator himself.

(Interesting enough, in Russia, there are followers of Stillmotion approach, some colleagues do masterclasses based on that!I see now many young videographers copy that "look and feel". I am inspired by the work of Stiillmotion myself, yet try to reinvent how to approach a wedding every time!
We all have to reinvent ourselves all the time, when we stop, we stale, no growth anymore. All the accomplishments are forgotten, that is sad but true.

Another thought, if we take feature films, as comparative example, predictability kills the movie. As long as the audience can see the pattern, repetition, it slows down the emotional flow of compation and empathy.
Stedicam and other camera moves can be easily copied, editing techniques can be mastered, same music can be taken, so on...

What can be always original that no one can take away, copy, pattern, model, mold ??

The people in front of the camera, the couple, the narration of the story, the wedding day, the true emotions, true essence!
Every time we try to use developed pattern, we shoot ourselves in the foot in a sense of
creative novelty.

Oleg, that post was a breath of fresh air. You said what I thought, but could not put down in writing.

Cheers.

Maybe I am missing the point here, but there are a lot of creative people out here who have no intention of copying your style Patrick, or wish to either!

You created your style from inspiration from various sources, and whilst you are posting here there will be many others creating their own unique style.

It is good to let people praise your work, but don't praise yourself! Pride will destroy all you have accomplished if your not careful.

Crumbs, now I'm starting to preach...I'll shut up.....

Cheers.


John,

My post isn't directed at the many people who have no intention of copying our style. It was to present the other side of the argument as to why it might not be beneficial for somebody to try and copy anothers work. This holds true for whomever you may be copying, including yourself (as Oleg pointed out).

This is not about praising our work. This is about the attitude that it is completely fine to outright copy (even while that is certainly the minority). This is about the dozen or so threads on various forums where others have posted their work and somebody commented on how it felt too StillMotion (these comments weren't from us). This is about the 8 emails we have received in the last two weeks from people we do not know sending us clips they have come across that they feel are an attempt to duplicate what we are doing. These are not some random thoughts I chose to post for no reason.

P.

Patrick...watching your work has taught me a lot. Mainly it has elevated my sensitivity to finding unique shots. To push the equipment, push the grading, study compostition, use of available light and use of all the tools as creatively as possible. I am a fan of storytellers: Bill Gaff and Chris Jones are a couple that come to mind. For shots that make your jaw hit the floor well that would be StillMotion, JMag and another damn canadian CloudNine. I guess my point is that I feel that we are still evolving into our style and the melting pot of those I admire contribute to that. Hopefully when we reach that pinnacle of "our style", we will, hopefully, be able to recognize it. When I read your original post I took it that you are selling yourself short to duplicate shots and it does not allow your mind to be open to creativity. In the wedding niche, if there are any running steadicam shots, its hard for it not to look like one of yours. But if people are constantly worried about it looking like this or that, it's going to show. I get tons of inspiration by shooting some photography, other photographers, music videos and the likes of those videographers mentioned.

I have a tough time understanding why some people are having such a tough time trying to grasp what we are getting at, even though there are others using different words. Many have even gotten offended and that is certainly a shame.

I, as well many others, when I started last year, was looking at SM and looking for inspiration. Things snowballed for me and now I am part of IT. And seeing all those clips all over the place, which sometimes scream "Still Motion" isn't actually flattering. I don't believe that you have to imitate somebody's style first to find your own. You can use the same colors we get at the paint store and then mix them on your palette and create your own colors. And how much more you will enjoy it. You will create, not copy.

All we ask for is, don't copy our work shot for shot. I'm sure you haven't seen all the copycat stuff we see out there. We have seen a lot of clips which are just pure rip off.

As a team, we put a lot in what we produce and every single piece is well thought out. There is a reason behind every shot, music choice, grading. A lot goes into creating the story. And then somebody takes that clip and copies bites of it and creates (I'm sorry but I can't use this word) or rather butchers a clip, which has nothing to do with the couple, says nothing about who they are, isn't original and doesn't even look good as a whole.
Why? Because if you take the same song we used and get the couple to the similar looking place, have few exact shots together with some other truly yours, copy the ring shot (same composition, light and idea), add a voiceover at the same time in the song, and then to be truly unique, fill it in with whatever (again, to not to make it a copycat)
ISN'T good for anybody. The couple gets a custom made pair of shoes, except it's not made for them.
I know I'm being harsh right now, but I think it is needed. Now, this can relate to any other studios being copied. I don't say don't copy us, but copy others. Don't copy anybody.
Now, for those who are now eager to start a stupid argument again, cause they still don't get it:
We don't say that if you use steadicam or 35mm adapter, color grade your work, shoot TTD and have ring shots in your clips; you copy us. That is some sort of influence. And of that we are proud of. I'm sure we helped tiffen sell good number of units, I'm aware that there are more brevis units out there being used for weddings. But that is where we are happy to help our industry to get better and grow. Be inspired and use steadicams. Use 35mm adapters, cause guess what, it will make your work better.
I have a lot of respect for guys like Jason Magbanua or Oleg Kalyan. You can tell by looking at their work that it is theirs. That's unique. That's beautiful. They don't try to copy anybody. I'm sure they watch other's work. We do to. But if we like something, we will ask ourselves how we can make it better. And only if we can, we will try. And yes, we get inspired also but other things. Sometimes it's a photo or movie, sometimes a poster or painting. Or maybe a song itself. But we work as team and try to develop the idea and create something unique. It maybe similar to something you've seen in the past. In a way. Maybe a part. But it will never be pure copying.

So we do encourage others to get influenced by us. We like that style. At the end we do it cause we like it. It is nice to know that somebody likes what we do and can learn. I myself was learning from SM too. I am still learning now. And they are learning from me. It's an ongoing process. But they learn only because I chose to remain myself. Otherwise they would relearn from themselves. I believe I brought my own vision and talent to SM too. They already had it. But now there are even more colors on the palette to mix with.

We are on the forums for a reason. We want to learn, we want to share and help others.
Personally, I owe it to you guys as well, that I could evolve quite fast. 10 years ago it wouldn't be possible. Without forums like that and all the info in the web it would have taken me years to learn what I've learnt in a year.
And we also want our industry to become better. We all have to fight with vidiot stereotype that brides have in their heads. We all want more awareness about who we are and what we are capable of.
That's why we are also doing workshops. We want to share. And NO, Brian, we won't tell any attendees they they can't use the techniques they will learn. We will do all we can to help them find the art sense within themselves, so they can, using all those tools and techniques, tell better stories and create art. Cause isn't it what we are all supposed to do? Isn't it what really our industry lacks right now?

Thanks for reading the whole thing.

Cheers!

All we ask for is, don't copy our work shot for shot. I'm sure you haven't seen all the copycat stuff we see out there. We have seen a lot of clips which are just pure rip off.


I have to agree, ive seen some videos that i know for a fact that the videographer saw Stillmotion then copied it as close as they could. They did a horrible job, and their attempt at it literally ruined the song that they used (actually copied from stillmotion when they used it a month before).
I kid you not... I have never seen a video that could be so bad that it can kill a song, until these copycat.

(I wont post the name of the company/video i saw, but can send people link if they want proof.)
They used the same song, and copied the same exact edit at the same time in the song.. Is it a coincidence? Maybe, but i REALLY doubt it.

PS, im no professional videographer, just a hobbiest who enjoys watching videos (ive seen alot...)

Konrad,
What you describe and you guys come by so "easily" and I say this tongue in cheek is the most difficult thing about what we do. Style is not something you can just sit around and develop without inspiration. Despite your intentions it is discouraging and dissapointing to hear this argument from you. I don't have the slightest intention of "ripping off" your shots or anyone's for that matter, but it is discouraging to hear that this is a problem for you. You should look down on us mere mortals with pity not anger. I, for one, wouldn't have the slightest idea of how to pull off what you guys do. Honestly it looks like alot of work I'm not being paid for, so you can have it.
Bill

For the videographers who copy StillMotion clips shot by shot, I fail to see how this could be a dependable business strategy in the long run? Do they pace themselves to book a new client only after SM releases a new clip so they can imitate it?

Or are these people using SM's ideas to jump start the style that they themselves would eventually develop? I think the latter is more likely..

As a teacher on occaision, I'd like to add a bit of commentary to the mix...

There are basically three stages to learning any "craft", and perhaps anything...

Stage 1: Learn the "tools" and the fundamentals of how they are used... this includes the unique lingo of any trade.
tripod, camera, aperature, DOF, etc. etc.
You have to learn the basics one way or another, and when starting out, learning to speak the language and use the tools is a good place to start. Children have to learn the alphabet and numbers... without that, there's nothing to build upon.

Stage 2: Imitate (yes, copy) the creations of others by studying their technique and the "rules" which they appear to follow in the pursuit of their craft/art. "Rules" are part of the framework we must go through along the way, so we have SOMETHING to go on while we are learning...
This is pretty typical of how human beans learn ANYTHING - they see and imitate someone they think is "cool" or authoritative on a subject... doesn't mean the authority figure knows it all or even pretends they do, but that's how the "student" sees them...

Stage 3: Innovate... this is where the magic comes in - you take the fundamentals, the rules, and everything you've taken in, and you throw it in a blender, break all the rules, try strange techniques, and try to do it in a "live" environment and do something unique and cool. If sucessful, you'll be the "cool" guru dude... or at least sucessful! If you really break all the rules, you're the Beatles or... maybe Still Motion <wink>.


What I think Patrick is saying is don't get stuck at stage 2, because stage 3 is where the magic happens. I can say after watching his behind the scenes corporate short, it's that creativity and magic that drives the "Still Motion" team to push the boundaries in what they do.

Maybe I'm being presumptuous, but I think Patrick want's EVERY videographer to see and be inspired not to slavishly copy, but to innovate and find their OWN voice and vision - because if they don't they will just be another wannabe.

We live in a world of cheap knockoffs, thank the internet for that... BUT we also live in a time when we can be spurred to greatness by building upon the collective genius of those who choose to generously share and teach what they have learned. It's all a pile of poo if we just "copy", and it's sad that that's as far as some people get (pity, really!).

Speaking for myself, I don't mind being "copied" (and it's an honor to rise to a level that you're WORTH copying!), but I think it's more exciting to see others take that leap to their own creative expression. I know that while I'm still flogging along learning how not to be disgusted by my own work, I have those "moments" when things just come together and send a shiver down my spine because they "work". We all should stirve to find those "moments"...

Konrad,
You should look down on us mere mortals with pity not anger. I, for one, wouldn't have the slightest idea of how to pull off what you guys do. Honestly it looks like alot of work I'm not being paid for, so you can have it.
Bill

I think by now those who wanted to understand why we brought it up, understood.

I don't know where you, Bill, are finding the anger.

Thanks Jack. It is exactly that what we don't like and yes, we are not happy with that. And nobody should.
These clips were what set this off, together with Travis's demo. But the two, being the opposite, were used as comparison. There were people saying that his demo is SM. It's not, but there is maybe some influence. We wanted to show that this what we don't mind and are actually proud of. Who wouldn't be? But on the other hand we wanted to say, while this is perfectly fine, you can't just take any clip and just try to copy it.
And Dave, while I agree with you on the learning process (you can take a shot or two and imitate different things), I would just like to add that I don't think you have to copy the whole clip.

Joel- I completely agree with you. My point or intent in dissuading others is for their own benefit, more so than ours.

I understand what you're saying but I'm not sure that altruism is at the heart of your message. This discussion has taken place dozens of times on dozens of forums. Trying to quell imitation is like trying to blind yourself to influence. It can't happen. 10 years ago having online clips was a novelty. Blogs didn't exist. Videographer forums were very few and infrequently visited. Now everyone's works is online, competing for paying client eyeballs. By posting that same work on public forums and entering contests you can reach a certain level of notoriety amongst your peers, which in reality has nothing to do with your business interests. The result is that it can be unnerving to see your ideas being carried out by others. What you may have professed to do at the outset, share, has actually worked. Any subsequent thoughts or comments based on what has happened that aren't completely altruistic and encouraging are based on ego, which easily masquerades under the guise of 'sharing'.

Whatever it was that drew you to the forum, whether it was altruism or ego, has had consequences, both positive and negative. In the end what has always happened will happen: Someone else comes on the field with unique ideas and their work becomes the work to be imitated. Its an endless cycle. None of it matters, because this online world doesn't exist. Its a virtual world of people separated by space that puts nearly all of us outside each other's real-world sphere of influence. What does matter is your business, and in nearly every case the innovators keep innovating and the copiers keep copying. No matter how many discussions like this have taken place and the good intentions that people declare human nature will never change. When it comes down to being able to create something that is tangibly more valuable people will use anything they see. There are companies doing work that is just as unique that go about serving their customers without going out of their way to post work for other videographers. They don't have an ego to satisfy so as a result they aren't pushing the industry forward by freely dispersing ideas. I think the industry is in a better place because you've been generous about sharing your work, but that was a decision you made that will have consequences regardless of how hard you appeal to people's better judgement.

Joel I am going to agree with what you say wholeheartedly! Ego, pride, self importance come to mind, all self destructive. You can mask it how you like, but it will still reveal itself...

It is blatantly obvious people will copy, human nature! If you don't want them too, then stop putting your work where the whole world can see it!

Cheers.

Konrad,
No anger... I'm not really involved... I'm just observing...
Bill

John: "Ego, pride, self importance come to mind" Why do you enter awards ceremonies again??!! Proud of your work perhaps? Bit of an ego trip perhaps?

Joel: in response to what you've said:

SHARING is fine, always has been, always will be. I love sharing my work, Patrick loves sharing his work, so-and-so might not like to share their work.

But COPYING exact shots is lame. e.g. Macro shot moving a light source over 2 rings, to produce moving shadows is an EXACT COPIED shot. I'd prefer to see a variation of that if the viewer had enjoyed seeing it so much, but not the exact same thing. And that's just one example, but I hope it illustrates the difference between sharing/influencing, and people copying exact shots.

Patrick's been doing some cool fast panning transitions which i've seen people instantly try to imitate exactly. But me, it just made me aware that I 'might' look into developing a cool transition myself, not trying to work out the exact way he did his.

ok, another example is, millions globally are copying Videocopilot's stuff in AE, but that's the nature of his site really, infact it's encouraged....but it seems the people everyone has the MOST respect for on his forum (and other forum-goers will agree), are the ones that produce showreels utilising the skills they've just watched, to develop their OWN style, not copying the tutorials exactly to get the exact same results.

** i'm not having a go at anyone here, just trying to clear things up. oh, and i'm sorry for the patronising captialisations. i'm leaving this thread alone now :) :)

I don't think copying a particular ring shot is what this is about... I think it more has to do with seeing a video and making your video just like it... as in not a couple of seconds worth of a shot, but rather 3 minutes worth.

And by the way, those pan transitions are not new to the wedding industry. I first saw Mayad using them, but I honestly have no idea who started them. As an industry, do we really want to stake claim to every original shot and transition we come up with?

From what I gathered, the 'beef' (if you want to call it that) is that it's okay to be INSPIRED by watching someone else's work, but copying shot-for-shot isn't hurting the one being copied. It's hurting the one DOING the copying because they aren't putting those creative juices to work.

I get that and I think we can all appreciate it. We can easily fall into a pattern and habit of copying what we see and then all we're doing is just going through the motions rather than trying to be original or creative.

But where exactly did it all start? Who was the first to get a tight shot of the wedding rings and make it their own? Who was the first to use a steadicam for weddings?

In TV land, we're quick to say that 'there are no new ideas.' Everything has already been done. Watch a newscast from 1975, 85 or 95... and the reality sets in!

I like to watch other newscasts that have great photojournalists and see what they come up with and see if I can incorporate their ideas or styles into something that works for me. Heck, if Spielberg does something I think is awesome I'm going to try it as well.

But I'm going to do my best to MAKE IT MY OWN.

97% of the time... ;)

But COPYING exact shots is lame. e.g. Macro shot moving a light source over 2 rings, to produce moving shadows is an EXACT COPIED shot. I'd prefer to see a variation of that if the viewer had enjoyed seeing it so much, but not the exact same thing. And that's just one example, but I hope it illustrates the difference between sharing/influencing, and people copying exact shots.

But in this lies the condundrum; at what point does it go from copying what you've seen to being your own artistic vision? If I use a different background for that shot, or maybe gel the light, or I don't know,use a wide angle instead of macro does it change the fact that what I'm trying to do is recreate the feel of Patrick's ring shot?

Where someone is crossing the line is when they copy my videos, put them on their website and claim they did them to sell more or higher priced packages. But if you like what I do, and can re-create it and make money then what's the harm? If you adopt my techniques, move into my market and seriously put a dent into my business then that's on me for showing you what I did and for not being strong enough on the business side to fend off the competition.

I too am done with this discussion.