I am putting down about 6 hours+ worth of footage to DVD (rendering is going to be hours upon hours) and I am wondering before I get too far, is this going to have to span 2 DVD's? Will DVD Arch. be able to compress this much onto a single DVD? I am going to be rendering using the Vegas Main concept mpeg2 dvd files.
Thank you.

Personally, I'd take it to 3 DVDs of 2 hours each. There is no specific "limit" to the length of a DVD as it really depends on the bitrate you use. However, to get 6 hours on a single DVD would take a really, really, low bitrate sacrificing tons of quality.

Now if you go to a dual layer disc, your options improve. You could, conceivably, put 6 hours on one but it would still be like dropping to 3 hours on a standard disc which still isn't usually recommended.

All I can say is try it and see how the quality looks to you! But I wouldn't do it.

Put the bit rate right down first then just render a loop section, just a couple of minutes, that way you'll know in a few minutes rather than having to wait hours to see if it's crap.

Paul.

It depends on how good the final quality is supposed to be as well as what the content is.
If it needs to be good quality and the content is something that's constantly moving and changing, I wouldn't go over 2 hr. with a CBR of 4,576,000 or VBR of 8,000.000 / 4,576,000 / 2,744,000 which means 3 DVDs. Use the 2-pass option.
If mediocre quality is acceptable and the content is something that's stationary such as a talking head, then you might be able to get away with 3 hr. with a CBR of 2,984,000 or VBR of 5,976,000 / 2,984,000 / 2,240,000. Once again, use the 2-pass option.

Since you're the only one who can decide what is acceptable quality or not, render out a short section at various settings to an RW and see for yourself.

Hi David,

I wouldn't go over 2 hours on a single layer DVD using the consumer available rendering engines. In order to maximize quality use two pass VBR. I've been able to get 2 hours using Max - 8,000,000, Ave - 4,750,000, Min - 3,200,000 with AC3 for audio. This was for a 4:3, 60i video. If you use 24p you could get a little higher bit rate since there are fewer frames per second. This setting gave me pretty good quality with no noticeable artifacts.

That's a video with some pretty decent amount of motion so it should work for most projects. The bad thing about VBR is that you can't be sure how much space it will take up unless your render the entire project.

Garrett

I see, thanks. I was hoping to get all of it on one DVD, but I guess not. I am rendering using the default 24p DVD NTSC and not changing the bitrate. Yes, I don';t want it to look terrible, so I guess spanning two DVD's is the way to go. Thanks

David, the default bitrate for the DVD Architect 24p NTSC video stream template is a VBR of 8,000,000 / 6,000,000 / 192,000.
If you stick with this, you'll have to use 3 DVDs as the average bitrate (the middle number) is the main factor in determining how much material you can fit on a disc.
Both Garrett & I gave you VBR numbers with the average in the 4,500,000 range and this is what you'd have to go with to be able to fit it on 2 DVDs.
192,000 is far too low for the Min. value so I strongly recommend that you raise the Min. value to at least 2,000,000 and then save this as a preset.

192,000 is far too low for the Min. value so I strongly recommend that you raise the Min. value to at least 2,000,000 and then save this as a preset.

I wonder if Vegas would actually go down to that low a bit rate on any type of video?

Danny Fye
VidMus Video - Music Productions (http://www.vidmus.com)

So to ensure I have this right, I NEED to change the Variable Bit rate to (and have it selected) :

Max : 9,000,000 (which is the default on mine using 24p NTSC video stream)
Ave : 4,500,000
Min : 2,000,000

And select the 2 pass check box, right?

Do it matter if I put the Audio in the same stream? I usually do, but if it is going to affect how much I can put on a DVD, I would rather render it out separately...

I wouldn't let the Max bit rate go over 8,000,000. Some set top dvd players can't take bitrates over that on the video end and will cause problems when playing.

You can render audio in the same stream but it will then again be recompressed by DVDA which will result in lower quality audio. A better way would be to render the video stream without audio, then render as Dobly Digital AC-3 Pro (*.ac3). In order to stop the enconding from attenuating the sound go into Custom settings, udner the Audio Service, set Dialog normalization to -31 dB; then go to the Preprocessing tab and make th eLine mode profile and RF mode profile None. If you don't the sound will be very softon your DVD. Save the ac3 file using the same name as the mpeg2 file and in the same directory.

When you pull your mpeg2 file into DVDA it will automatically find the ac3 file and connect up the two files.

Hope that helps

Darn, I forgot to add - the 6+ hours are separated into 4 X 1.5 hour videos - does this make a difference?

If your burner can handle double-layer disks, this is an ideal situation for two DLs. 1.5 hours per layer is very good video quality. In other words, each of your video segments goes on a layer of a DVD, you end up with a total of two DVDs.

Darn, I forgot to add - the 6+ hours are separated into 4 X 1.5 hour videos - does this make a difference?

It sure does.
Use AC-3 audio (default template but make the changes Garrett mentioned) and change the bitrate to the following:
Max: 7,712,000
Avg: 6,168,000
Min: 3,696,000
Using 2-pass won't affect these numbers.
These are conservative numbers but I guarantee that your material will fit.

No it can't. I don't mind having 2 DVD for this, but 3 is too much. Again, 6 hours spread over four video files each about 1.5 hours. I am going with the bit rate that I stated and hope this works for 2 DVD's because if not, it is a whole weekend down the drain.

It really depends on what the content of each video is and how you want to present it. If there are logical break points at the end of each 1.5 hour video I would put it out as a 4 DVD set with 1.5 hours on each DVD. That way when someone has to change out the DVD they it won't seem so odd. Aslo, with putting only 1.5 hours on the DVD you could up the average bit rate setting to theoretically get a better quality or even add a second audio channel. If I have room I usually have an ac3 plus a PCM audio stream just in case somebody's DVD player isn't reading or can't read the ac3 stream.

As Seth said you could go with two DL discs but there will be added cost over 4 single layer DVDs. Aslo, there are some pitfalls to using DL's. They are definately not as compatible with set top DVD players and you need to make sure the layer change point is at the right point or there may be a noticeable delay where the layer change is. I always put the layer change point at a scene change.

David, the numbers you quoted will work but, as your Avg rate is far lower than it needs to be, your image quality will suffer.
An Avg rate of 4,500,000 is what I use for a 2 hr. video.

Each video really needs to go together, but if I have to span say video 1&2 on one DVD and video 3&4 on the other, it isn't the end of the world, but a compromise I am going to have to make. Ok, back to changing the bit rate again (thanks Mike). It is going to take around 3.5 hour for each to render and I am running out of time!

David,

If you can get another machine loaded with Vegas and start rendering the second disc at the same time. One thing I've learned over the years is to hope it goes smoothly but plan on problems.

A couple of tips if you haven't worked with DL discs before. The layer break has to occur at a point where you have a chapter on your DVD. If DVDA can't find a chapter it will kick out an error and won't let you create the DVD. It will tell you a range where it want's a chapter to be inserted. Just find a good point where you either change scens or have a good edit point where it goes black and insert a chapter point.

I've had some problems with compatability with the discs burned using DVDA. To get around this I use ImageBurn (a free program) which seems to give me the best luck in my DVD burning. For the shows I do I usually end up making about 100 to 200 copies of each disc so here is my usally workflow. Prepare the DVD using DVDA, use ImageBurn to create the master image, then burn the image to discs on multiple machines (upwards of 5 machines burning at once). A multidisc duplicator is on my wish list but the boss (aka the wife) hasn't approved it yet.

Good luck!

I am not going with DL this time, maybe in the future. Right now, 10% done and 3 hours left and I have to work at 4:30...I need a miracle - and this is only one video

Using Mark bitrate calculator, how are people determining the min ave and max rates? I choose Variable and see three numbers, but two are the same? The bottom left and the Average are both the same...

Ok, never mind, I can see it now. I am not sure why the bit rate for the Average and the Max are the same, but...

By "bottom left", do you mean the Minimum setting?
I choose the disk type I want (DVD-5 - SS/SL) and the AC-3 bitrate (192 Kb/S), set the length, choose either CBR or VBR and use the numbers it gives me.
I've modified mine by clicking the Settings box (bottom left of the main screen), setting the Safety Margin to 5%, clicking the 1 Kilobit = 1024 bits and setting the AC-3 bitrate to the figure I mentioned.
Everything else is left at their defaults.
For a 90 min. video, I get a CBR of 6168 and a VBR of 7712 / 6168 / 3696.

Ok, I am getting close but not the same - where is the 1 1024 bits you said?

"setting the Safety Margin to 5%, clicking the 1 Kilobit = 1024 bits"

The safety, I can see and have changed but the Kilobit I don't see anywhere. Is it in the settings button?

For the audio, even though I am rendering it separately, do I include it in the calculations?

Now, this is what I get at 90 minutes:
3856 6432 8040

Oh nevermind, when I switch back and forth between the setting menu, it sets all of the safe margin and audio back to defaults. Got it now. Thanks

BTW, what is DVD-5 mean? Shouldn't it be -R?

Ok, I am getting close but not the same - where is the 1 1024 bits you said?

"setting the Safety Margin to 5%, clicking the 1 Kilobit = 1024 bits"

The safety, I can see and have changed but the Kilobit I don't see anywhere. Is it in the settings button?

Yes. Click the Settings button. It's at the bottom left of the main screen.
Make sure to make your AC-3 selection on this new screen as well.

For the audio, even though I am rendering it separately, do I include it in the calculations?

Yes. The size of the audio file needs to be factored into the calculation.

Now, this is what I get at 90 minutes:
3856 6432 8040

If I don't include audio and don't have the "1 Kilobit = 1024 bits" option clicked, I get numbers very similar to yours.

Mike, last question hopefully - can you specify the number of FILES on the DVD with the calculator? For example, I want to fit 2 video that are 1.5 hours each - how can I manage to figure out if that will fit using the calculator?

This is getting strange. I rendered out the footage, just like you said with those settings, brought it into Arch and it says the BIT rate is too low, cannot render. I have it set properly, I don't get what is going on here?!

Mike, last question hopefully - can you specify the number of FILES on the DVD with the calculator? For example, I want to fit 2 video that are 1.5 hours each - how can I manage to figure out if that will fit using the calculator?

Set the length to 3 hr.
However, IMO that makes the Avg. bitrate (what determines the overall quality) too low.
I'd do a short test render though and see if it meets your standards.

This is getting strange. I rendered out the footage, just like you said with those settings, brought it into Arch and it says the BIT rate is too low, cannot render. I have it set properly, I don't get what is going on here?!

Ray Paula is having the same issues in the "Help Please! Error DVDA Bitrate Too Low??" thread, a few below this one as well as a poster on the Cow Vegas forum.
I've never seen that message so I don't know what to tell you.
Hopefully our resident DVDA expert, Edward Troxel, will jump in and offer some advice.

I went over to the forum and read some posts, thanks for that - I guess what I am discovering is that putting 3 hours on one DVD is going to give me results that are like a VHS tape. That sucks. I was thinking about using your settings (of an average of 4.5kb for the 1.5hours X 2video, but that seems like it will be too big for the DVD to shrink.
The calc. I got for 3 hours is :

2168 min
2888 ave
5784 max

I just thought of something : if I use the bit calculator to render out the stream, does it still need to be prepare in Arch or is it ok just to MAKE DISK from that point?

I am going to try a constant bit rate of 2,984,000 like Mike suggested instead of variable BR and see what happens. I also have been getting crashes with Vegas about 1/2 through my render which doesn't help my cause so I am going have to look into that. This is taking me much too long (3+ hours for the first part of it and I have 3 more parts to go!).

I am also going to render on another computer to see if the issue lies with my computer...

Using a constant bitrate of 2,848,000 - I managed to get almost 4.5 hours on a DVD. Now the quality isn't great, but at least I am starting to get somewhere. Now if I can just streamline the process for when the FINAL build comes, I should be ok - but I have yet to test out an actual PREPARE or BURN.

If you are going to cram a lot on a DVD, you can try half-D1 format. I've done this many times under PAL (352x576). With NTSC it will be 352x480. Looks funny if played on a PC, but DVD players play it back correctly.

You don't want to use CBR for the ultra long stuff. 2-pass VBR is best. If the Main Concept MPEG-2 codec can't handle it, try a freebie like HCenc.

What is this like Half D1 like as far as quality and stretching of the image to fit on a TV? What bit rate should I use in this case? I am using Marks Bit rate calculator and I don't see a setting for half D1. Is that in Vegas?
Thanks for heads up, if I can get the info from you, I will give it a try tonight!

Does anyone know how I can get half D1 format? Do I just change the size in the "Video" tab under NTSC video stream DVD? Will this still render out to full size? Thanks

Also, can this be done if the project is finished and waiting to render?

David, forget about trying to do this with Vegas & DVDA as, for a 6 hr. DVD, the bitrate will end up being so low that your picture quality will be absolute garbage.
Do it on 2 discs and accept the poor quality that I know you're going to end up with.

Here's a comment about bitrates from John Meyer on a very recent thread on the Sony Vegas forum.

The important thing to understand is that the ONLY thing which determines file size -- and therefore how many minutes will fit on a disc -- is the bitrate. Resolution doesn't matter. If you encode 320x240 or 1920x1080 at 25 mbs, they will both end up at exactly the same file size. However, lower resolution requires fewer bits per second in order to achieve the same temporal quality (e.g., "mosquito" noise around fast-moving objects).