Hi guys, wanted to start this thread for a more specific application of shooting in cars, specifically supercars and cars for the race track.
Thought we could share problems, advice and upload clips to see what's going on.

I'm fortunate enough to have many friends with all sorts of cars in their collections, and have been making little films specifically in cars for years.
I've just acquired a Canon HF11 (to replace the HV20), as previously all the camera's I used were from my Uni.

My first problem is isolating the HF11 from vibration when mounted in-car.

I'm currently using the HF11 on a monopod, and a heavy duty suction mount which is clamped to the monopod (so that is very secure and stable). I'll get some snaps up tomorrow showing what that looks like. However my footage is still showing signs of vibration despite the camera with its stabilisation off, in 50i and with a shutter speed around 250.
Any thoughts on isolating the camera more?

I don't know about the HF11, but the HV20 is unusable for in/on-car shots. I think the CMOS can't handle the vibrations. There's a thread about this subject in the HV20 section.
I tried to made the HV20 work on suctioncups and superclamps. With CCD cams it is no problem, but the HV20 just keeps messing with the picture.
Maybe it is the same problem as you experience.
Normally suctioncups and clamps are all you need.

Normally suctioncups and clamps are all you need.

Yep, fully agree as I've had no issues in the past. That's why I'm determined to isolate the camera from vibration as I know it can do a good job (well, it just cost me near £800 so it better ! :D ).
I use bullet camera's as well but I need to buy a new recorder for that as the HV20 was the main recorder previously. Obviously they are always fine with suction mounts/clamps.

Racking my brain at the moment !

p.s
I do have a Glidecam 2000 Pro, may be able to try and use that in some way.

Perhaps you might look at differently. Instead of isolating the camera from the car's vibration, you might want to bind the camera as tightly as possible.

I use the Bogen/Manfrotto Super Clamp with 056 3-D Junior Head (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/375297-REG/Bogen_Manfrotto_2910_Super_Clamp_with_056.htmlManfrotto) to mount up to four mini DV cams in what you would term "tin tops" and they are epic. Clamp the jaws to a structural support and it will just not move. The 3-D head articulates into virtually any position so camera positioning is not difficult.

I use an old Sony TRV 19, a couple of new Canon Z9XX and a Panny GS 350 with image stabilization off and I could not be more pleased with the results from the Sony and the Canons. The Panny has some issues with something apparently moving internally as the camera is dead solid.

If you're interested in what the video looks like, here's an example: One Great Mini Stock Heat on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/1705113). Yes, I know the PAR is wrong but there are some in-car shots that will show you the stability of the mount. I think there's even one shot where the driver gets hit from behind and nothing moves. You might even be able to see the following car come up in the rear view. The in car for this race was the Sony.

If you have any questions, just let me know.

HTH

Nice and stable inside there, like my other vids with different cameras.
(on a side note: could never understand why people like going around in circles?)

A lot of the cars I go in, CarreraGT/Murci/F40/Gallardo ect don't have exposed frames to work with, so it's quite tricky doing that. For other cars like GT3's with cages its easy enough to hook up to.
I'm going to test the HF11 with my Brevis 35 today and see if that helps at all as it has some clamps to stabilise the camera.

I've got a meet on Sunday, so wanted to test as many ways as possible before we go out.

Right may sound silly, and will do much further testing tomorrow as I only had about 15mins of light left when a car was available... but closing the LCD just made a HUGE difference.
More tomorrow.

I'm going to test the HF11 with my Brevis 35 today and see if that helps at all as it has some clamps to stabilise the camera..

I'd be curious to know how that all works out. You might have issues with movement if the clamp for the Brevis isn't as secure as the one for the camera. But I expect you already knew that.

They're not actually circles, they're ovals. (grin) I like races that turn left and right too, but in my experience you usually get tighter racing on ovals. Plus you can see all the action from anywhere in the stands. If it goes fast and has four wheels, I'm all over it.

BTW: Congratulations to your countryman Hamilton on the F1 title. He definitely deserved it.

I'd be curious to know how that all works out. You might have issues with movement if the clamp for the Brevis isn't as secure as the one for the camera. But I expect you already knew that.

They're not actually circles, they're ovals. (grin) I like races that turn left and right too, but in my experience you usually get tighter racing on ovals. Plus you can see all the action from anywhere in the stands. If it goes fast and has four wheels, I'm all over it.

BTW: Congratulations to your countryman Hamilton on the F1 title. He definitely deserved it.

Ah yes, my mistake it is an Oval, and yeah I can imagine its good for viewing, as a driver it wouldn't interest me thats all :)

Ok the test with the Brevis was ok but not that different from the camera being solo. The main issue is that it needs to be completely secure. I found the extension arm from my suction mount that clamped to the monopod had some vibration, and that the bottom of the monopod would need to be very secure, as yep more movement.

Soooo.
Today I tried out various tests and I've found the best results so far:
Heavy duty Suction mount
Clamp around the connector on the suction mount.
Double ball swivel thing (as seen here on SC2, on the right hand side)
CAMCORDER MOUNTING BRACKETS (http://www.b-hague.co.uk/Mounting%20Brackets.htm)

That seems to eliminate most of the problems, and on-track I'd imagine that should be quite stable.

I'm out in the 997 GT3 RS tomorrow, this one has a full cage so I can test out a few things, will post the results up asap. I'll get some shots of the set up just incase it goes well :D

p.s
Cheers for the Hamilton comment :D
Also well done for picking the right President :)

That superclamp with the double ball is exact the same setup as i use. It is one of the best solutions fur Cage-Clamping. Tripp's solutions is more or less the same, maybe even more sturdier.
But my guess is some camcorders can't handle vibrations well. Don't know if it is rolling shutter or a image stabilisator that makes it even worse. I did turn it off on the Canon HV, but it is still horrible.

Anyway, a GT3RS is a great car, so i hope your footage turns out well. Show us the results, good or bad ;)

That superclamp with the double ball is exact the same setup as i use. It is one of the best solutions fur Cage-Clamping. Tripp's solutions is more or less the same, maybe even more sturdier.
But my guess is some camcorders can't handle vibrations well. Don't know if it is rolling shutter or a image stabilisator that makes it even worse. I did turn it off on the Canon HV, but it is still horrible.

Anyway, a GT3RS is a great car, so i hope your footage turns out well. Show us the results, good or bad ;)

Yep, we are set for tomorrow morning now, meant to be some nice cars turning up with us.
I won't be setting up the microphone job that I normally do (not that it takes long to do) but in the morning we'll be rushing about so I dont want to keep people waiting.
So this will literally just be a solo camera test !
I've done all my microphone testing and have solved that now :)

Right, the camera does NOT work at all with my current clamps/mounts.

Nevertheless, WHAT AN INCREDIBLE SIGHT THIS MORNING !!!!
Photo's coming very shortly, and a small quickly edited vid later tonight or tomorrow morn.
:D

Not one for lying, here are some stills from my HF11, most with a little tweak in PS.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4263/sequence01ul6.jpg

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/4886/sequence02kr4.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/5166/sequence03pp1.jpg

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4060/sequence04ns1.jpg

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/3215/sequence05dz2.jpg

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/5753/sequence06cj1.jpg

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/3761/sequence07ac5.jpg

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4324/sequence08ok8.jpg (RARE COLOUR!)

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/3177/sequence09gn9.jpg

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4568/sequence11dl2.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/6927/sequence15rv3.jpg

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/7767/sequence16iv9.jpg

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7788/sequence17vj9.jpg

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/7554/sequence19fx2.jpg

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/1199/sequence22bp0.jpg

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3618/sequence23pt3.jpg

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/442/sequence24lc3.jpg

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/8568/sequence25zy3.jpg

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/5309/sequence27dl4.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/593/sequence28ud9.jpg

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/6545/sequence29qg8.jpg

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/9383/sequence31th8.jpg

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1661/sequence32wz6.jpg

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/96/sequence33my0.jpg

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9038/sequence34pk5.jpg

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/4070/sequence35gr8.jpg

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/5848/sequence36eh8.jpg

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/2264/sequence37bk2.jpg

Rob, if you need a helping hand, I would work for airfare.....
That looks like a lot of fun.

It's pretty much my reason not to leave the UK and move to LA mate :)
Everyone is soo lovely and 'down to earth' as well, no snobbery, just pure passion for cars (and usually women ;) ).

I'll just start chopping up the very very limited footage I did get.
:)

I drag race motorcycles for a hobby. I am still trying to figure out how to drive and film it at the same time... I plan on hooking up a camera on the bike, but I am not sure if it can handle the 3-4 g's of force I get on the starting line. I was trying to figure out a way to mount it in foam or something, but your rigid mounting style sounds like it works better. I will try it after I see some of your footage

I drag race motorcycles for a hobby. I am still trying to figure out how to drive and film it at the same time... I plan on hooking up a camera on the bike, but I am not sure if it can handle the 3-4 g's of force I get on the starting line. I was trying to figure out a way to mount it in foam or something, but your rigid mounting style sounds like it works better. I will try it after I see some of your footage

a coworker of mine has a ducatti and he uses a CNC machined piece of aluminum that screws over his gas tank(in replacement of his existing gas tank screws) with a screw for his camera.
I remember vaguely that he had purchased this somewhere online.

But my guess is some camcorders can't handle vibrations well.

This is true. I have a Panny GS400 (I think) that refuses to let me mount it in a car. Mount is dead solid but will wobble. OIS was off. I think it's something internal because same car, same mount with a cheap Canon ZR9X0 and the images are rock solid.

Don't know if it is rolling shutter or a image stabilisator that makes it even worse. I did turn it off on the Canon HV, but it is still horrible.

You must have the OIS off. Small, rapid vibrations will make it nuts. Rolling shutter would just make it worse.

I only know one thing. If I get the camera mounted so it will not move... ever I get great footage.

Since you have had problems with your HV10, which has optical stabilization and my Panny does too. And optical stabilization in mechanical stabilization. The three cameras good for in-car work are electronically stabilized. I'm wondering if there's something in the OIS that continues to stay active in the optical path even if it's switched off.

I drag race motorcycles for a hobby. I am still trying to figure out how to drive and film it at the same time... I plan on hooking up a camera on the bike, but I am not sure if it can handle the 3-4 g's of force I get on the starting line.

SuperClamp will stay attached. I've had cameras mounted in cars that had shunts I'd expect to be at least 4g of instant deceleration. Hitting a wall will do that. The g force on a drag bike would be a bit more gradual.

Key to the camera is keep it light so the clamp can do it's work, and run tape at SP speed. For longer races, I'll run it in LP mode and on my old Sony it doesn't like it as much as SP mode. Canons seem to take it in stride.

Hmm im really not sure what do to :(

Hmm im really not sure what do to :(

Not sure what you mean. Do about what? What's missing?

I think I will try it with a cheap camera first. The bikes go 160-230 mph at the finish line, and there is no windscreen or anything. maybe I should give up the idea before I start?

Not sure what you mean. Do about what? What's missing?

Well, the gear I have doesn't work with my particular camera, so obviously I want that solved ASAP.
I'm going to get someone to get me into Dunsfold when they are shooting Top Gear, as it's only 15 mins from my house as well. I'll observe from a distance and chat to them on a lunch break or something, well thats the plan :D

I'm going to get someone to get me into Dunsfold when they are shooting Top Gear, as it's only 15 mins from my house as well. I'll observe from a distance and chat to them on a lunch break or something, well thats the plan :D

Lucky bugger. (grin)

Lucky bugger. (grin)

I find that I must agree with Tripp on this.

hehe, no problem :)
Hopefully I'll be able to get some access but depends if anyone I know, knows anyone there.

My latest thoughts over the past few days is to continue with the idea of isolating the camera from vibrations. I'm thinking about using the gel from a mouse pad that usually supports the bottom of your palm, to somehow cushion the camera.

I'm still ok with using my bullet cam for 'heel and toe' action, as well as other interesting shots (flames from exhausts ect).

here is a thread where he mounted the camera in a foam filled box. I like the idea, but its far too bulky for a dragbike, so it wouldn't work for me.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-xh-series-hdv-camcorders/106248-xh-a1-motorcycle.html

here is a thread where he mounted the camera in a foam filled box. I like the idea, but its far too bulky for a dragbike, so it wouldn't work for me.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-xh-series-hdv-camcorders/106248-xh-a1-motorcycle.html

Wow, thats a great idea!
I could make a mini box :)

REALLY appreciate that, gonna go fetch tools and bits now :D

I've still got to go and get some foam for this today, but I shall still be giving this a go !
I have actually found another solution and shall report my findings pronto.

Also the video footage I shot, edited (roughly), just trying to find some suitable music to put here and there.
:)

I, for one, would love to see the resulting footage, if you are in a position to share.

I'll get some music on that meet a couple of weeks ago, and I'll post the link on this thread.

Well, was at Brands Hatch on Sunday and tested out my 'other' solution, which was a different camera altogether !
I have worked out something for the HF11, which I'm just constructing in the evening. Not sure if it will work, but theoretically it should be a huge improvement.
It REALLY would seem that the HF11 wouldn't be the ideal choice for mounted in-car shooting, but you could get 2 camera's that would do the job for the same price :)

Camera vibration could be caused by the mount, or what the mount is mounted to, or the car itself. A heavy camera just makes things worse.

Some people use mounts that attach to the headrests of their seats. I'd expect to see a lot of camera shake in this videos. Others make simple mounts that extend from the rear deck, from behind the back seats. That can work if done well. Suction cup mounts on body panels that don't flex much can work well. Sticking them on glass works better since the glass is pretty rigid. I've used suction cup mounts on my windshield and sun roof and that worked out well.

Mostly, I use an IOPort mount that is bolted onto my harness bar. It's a good solid mounting and you can aim and tilt the camera anyway you want. The camcorder is just behind me but I can reach it to turn it off and on. When used as a camera it gives a good view out of the front window. I also use it as a VCR when using bullet cams.

Picture of my camera in its mount: http://www.kstreetstudio.com/hpde/video/images/VidSysB.jpg

Even as solid as this mounting is, during hard cornering and braking it will aim a little left/right and up/down. You can see this in all of my videos, but I have to say it actually adds a little something to the shots. Once I shot video where I zoomed in on the GTech that is mounted on my windshield. The GTech is constantly moving around in the view, but the camera is not shaking much.

GTech video: TEAM Racing at Thunderhill, January 28, 2007. A G- Video (http://videos.streetfire.net/video/TEAM-Racing-at-January-28_109257.htm)

The reason this is happening is the car's body flexes. Some cars do more of this than others. I know a guy who had a fully caged Civic and it still flexed so much that his videos were a mess. I mounted my equipment in a friend's race Mustang, with the camcorder on his roll bar, and the results were good.

For shots from outside the car I use bullet cams. They are small, light, and not so expensive that I'd cry if I lost one. The video quality is not as good as from the camcorder, but that is another story.

I use small suction cup mounts for side and rear shots and shots from the roof of my car when using my bullet cams. They have worked very well, but a lot of that is probably because the bullet cams are so light. You do have to make sure the car is clean and dry or else one or more suction cups may let go. I tether everything in case it comes off.

External video (door and side window mount): T.E.A.M. Racing at Thunderhill, Januray 28, 2007. - Video (http://videos.streetfire.net/video/TEAM-Racing-at-Januray-28_109281.htm)

I also have a bullet cam mounted in my grill. The only time I have ever had a problem with it is when I forgot to replace some of the plastic clips that hold all that trim and stuff together. Otherwise, it works well and I use that camera a lot. It is low to the ground and uses a wide angle lens so it makes things look even faster, plus you can see the curbing at the apexes. It also makes it look like you war way faster than the people you pass, but also much slower than the people who pass you. Also, when you get right up on someone's bumper it still makes it look like you are still a car-length back.

One other installation that holds promise is the driver's helmet. It gives a very different feel to the whole driving experience. You get to see what the driver is looking at, almost, plus how not-smooth the laps are and how much the head leans to counter the G-forces.

Helmet cam: SAMOA Event at Thunderhill, Apr-23-2007. Last ses- Video (http://videos.streetfire.net/video/SAMOA-Event-at-Apr232007_113814.htm)

Sorry about the quality of the videos. I'm experimenting with the cameras and setups and audio and I am driving. That's a lot to keep track of, plus I don't get a good look or listen at the results until after I get home.

A problem I have not been able to solve is to convey to the viewer just how fast things are happening. In the video it looks pretty relaxed. I had one student (driver) come over to view the videos before his first track day and after wards he thought he knew what to expect. When he got to the track, whole different experience. The turns were much tighter and the car was much faster than he expected.

Getting good audio is also very difficult. We have to drive with both windows down so wind noise ruins the audio. Now I'm putting mic on my rear bumper and that works much better, although it could be improved. In recent efforts I use some of Premiere's audio effects to clean up the audio a bit.

I use a miniDV camera and have never had a problem with it cutting out due to vibration or G-forces (I pull a little over 1 G in some turns). I know of others using solid state cameras that do cut out. I'd expect hard drive-based cameras to have even more of a problem with this.

I hadn't forgotten about this thread AT ALL !
I've just been very busy, and trying to sort life out.

Promise results will be up !

Bit late to the party, sorry.

A problem with OIS is you cannot actually turn it off. This is why cheaper cameras without any OIS work better in these applications. Digital stabilization can be turned right off.

OIS is a mechanical device, shake the camera enough or with enough G force and the OIS shakes around making the image really bad.

Because of the extreme g-forces, vibration, heat and dust, we use VIO Sport cameras for most of our in-car footage. It uses a wireless remote that syncs up to 5 recorders. That way, we can have both forward, reverse and foot-pedal views. Each unit records to a separate SD memory card and is both vibration and waterproof. So far we've recorded two crashes and we've never lost a unit.

This is something we did for ESPN. Watch the in-car footage as a rally driver hits a tree:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UVqiDlKPOA

Here's the full stage in-car:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2FOnSMWObM

V.I.O. | POV.1.5M Digital Helmet Camera System | POV375 | B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/605497-REG/V_I_O__POV375_POV_1_5M_Digital_Helmet_Camera.html#features)

For more pedestrian stuff, we just mount our HD A1Us onto some Bogen suction mounts.