My review of HD camcorder options has had me going in circles as to choice. My thinking is to avoid rolling shutter artifacts with cmos sensors - limits the SONY options. The new Panasonics are interesting but the lens wobble issue and and anti shock design don't inspire confidence.

So - full circle back to the XH A1.

My question - is there a way to go from the XH A1 tapeless to my Mac? What is the NLE workflow that is used?

If you want to shoot tapeless, you would have to buy one of the Firestore type drives for the XH A1. What Sony camera are you looking at? The one comparable to the XH A1 would be the Z1 or the new Z5, both of which have CCD chips just like Canon. I have an XH A1, but I shot for a couple of weeks with a Sony single chip CMOS camera, and I never saw any problem with the rolling shutter. I think if you did see it, it would be very rare. There are lots of HV10/20/30 users around here who don't seem to have a problem with it.

Why do you want to shoot tapeless with an XH A1?

Bill - I've been using a Canon Vixia HF 100 and am sold on the tapeless NLE workflow. For my business applications, I need the features found at the prosumer or entry level professional offerings. Critical focus is at the top of the list.

I am wanting to use one of the just released 13" Macbooks as a live monitor and capture device. The Firestore has had mixed reviews and is overpriced for what it is - IMO.

Can the A1 be ported directly to a laptop?

You can record directly to the computer if what you're shooting allows you to stay tethered and if your NLE software lets you do that, which if you're using FCP it would. Even the free iMovie does that, I think.

Bill - that helps - I can stay tethered for the critical business applications. The Z5 is a SONY offering that I want to see before making a decision. I may be over concerned with the CMOS wobble, skew and flash issues - a CCD camera sounds much safer - or so i think.

Bill - since I have you "on the line", what hardware would be in play:

A1 via __________ to some sort of connector/adapter __________ to the 34mm express card slot on the new Macbook??

I think the CMOS thing is vastly overexaggerated. The only place it might show up would be, for example, if you're doing a really fast dolly shot along something like a grocery store aisle with the camera sitting at a Dutch angle. Then you might see some funkiness on the cans on the shelves as they go by.

I'm quite happy with the XH A1; in fact I really like it. I went from a full size 2/3" chip DVCAM camera to it and would do that again in a minute. However, that upcoming Sony Z5 looks just as good. The reason I got the Canon over the Z1 was because the Canon has a real iris ring instead of that pesky knob on the side, as well as an overall better lens, in my opinion. The Z5 does the same thing, and also does 24p like the Canon. Being Sony, it will cost more. Still, if I were in the market today I would definitely give it a close look.

I'll probably never understand. I have the XH-A1 and the Sony EX1 with its tapeless workflow. For HDV the workflow is exactly the same, offloading to the computer via firewire at realtime playback speed.

For Sony's other recording modes, yes you can pop the SXS memory card into a laptop and start editing right away, but there are still several steps to that workflow that in the end, I think tape based HDV remains faster.

So I for one, am not sold on tapeless workflow. There is nothing wrong with HDV tape or tape based workflows. It ends at the instant you've finished off loading the footage, which is not the most time intensive step in the workflow.

Tom - here is a perspective from a real beginner (lots of DSLR experience). With solid state I do not have to worry about record heads / cleaning them / alignment / tape transport reliability & audio noise / old school as it were. I will quickly be in over my head with all the experience that you guys have. It is not so much the speed of files coming off the camera - it is the other things I mentioned. The AVCHD experience has been seamless for me thus far.

I forgot my most critical question :-0

If tethered up - I assume that the entire tape mechanism is off line - not active - by-passed - yes????

Tom - here is a perspective from a real beginner (lots of DSLR experience). With solid state I do not have to worry about record heads / cleaning them / alignment / tape transport reliability & audio noise / old school as it were. I will quickly be in over my head with all the experience that you guys have. It is not so much the speed of files coming off the camera - it is the other things I mentioned. The AVCHD experience has been seamless for me thus far.

There is no audio noise from the tape transport on the XH-A1, unlike on compartmentalized consumer cams where the tape mechanism is a fraction of an inch away from the microphone.

As for the worry about record heads/cleaning/alignment, I think if you did a search on the XH-A1 you'd find very few hits.

I think where you hit the nail on the head is with "old school" observation. It's something we don't want to be, so we look for reasons it's wrong when it isn't always. Tape and transports have been virtually perfected.

Tom - it is a good point - not stuck on having to have the "latest and greatest" tech thing - just some concern about buying the last of the old technology.

Back to my hardware question - what output port on the A1 do I plug what cable into and what do I plug into the Macbook for it to hook up to?

Sorry for all the detail questions but I need to know what I will need to buy :-)

Your options with the XH-A1 for HD are going to be firewire or component video YPrPb.

Sorry, I missed that question before. I'd just use a firewire cable. You can buy cables up to 3 meters, or about 15' in length. But you can string them out for more length by using one of those little boxes--check CDW or any other place that sells firewire cables. I think the box is about 40 bucks or less, same basic thing as those USB boxes you use when you want a longer USB cable run. You'd use a 4-pin to 6-pin cable. Camera has 4 pin, computer has 6.

You have to be really careful when recording via firewire that way because of the 4-pin connector. It can slip out easily. There's no way to lock it in.

I don't think you'd have to worry about the "old technology" of tape. It's going to be in use for a number of years. And the nice thing about tape is that a good quality HDV tape is only about 16 bucks and you can stick it in a box and keep it for years. If your hard drive crashes, no problem--you still have your original.

Eventually the price of solid state cards will drop low enough so you don't have to reuse them and they will gradually replace tape. But I think that's a ways away. Most high end video is still tape, HDCAM being the most common. National big budget TV spots are still delivered on tape, and all the big film festivals want HDCAM tapes or 35 mm prints.

If I were in your shoes and felt I had to go tapeless, I would hold out for a camera like the EX1, rather than dealing with the hassle of recording to a computer. Buy enough cards to get you through a day's shoot, then upload the footage to the computer, and back it up to a second drive or output to BluRay or something secure for storage, then reformat the cards for the next day's shoot. Or, if you do record to a computer, record simultaneously to the camera's tape drive so you'll have the tape in case the computer crashes.

Bill - the EX1 is on my list also - going in circles :-)

Hi Rick. I've had my XH-A1 for a couple of years and still love this camera. However I too would like to have a tapeless workflow, just to start editing faster instead of waiting for tape captures.

So I've been looking at the Sony HD unit that is nice and small and takes videocam batteries and was almost ready to buy one, until I saw this:

Sony : HVR-MRC1K (HVRMRC1K) : Produktübersicht : Deutschland (http://www.sony.de/biz/view/ShowProduct.action?product=HVR-MRC1K&site=biz_de_DE&pageType=Overview&imageType=Main&category=HDVVTRs)

This is a CF card recorder, also by Sony, and looks like a really good solution for my needs. I would still intend to shoot tape simultaneously as an archive media.

Now all I need are reports from some early adopters to see if it is as good as it loooks. :)

Richard

I have read (in other threads on here) that unit will work on the Canon. But nobody seems to know if they really have it for sale in the U.S. yet.

It seems I'm in the minority by being happy with tape. I shoot way too much footage that doesn't get edited for sometimes weeks, and then I have to save the original forever. The thought of having to go back to the hotel room every night on an out of town shoot and spend all that time downloading, checking and backing up footage is not my idea of a fun thing to do after shooting for 10 hours.

I have the A1 at home and the Z1 at work... So far I like The A1 better as it is a better switch from a DVX100... In my opinion things function more the same on the A1. Also as bill said, it has the nice ring for the iris. Both cameras waste too much space on auto functions, but that's prosumer for you... I think you would be quite happy with either one, but if the EX1 is in your price range than so is the HPX170, I would just get that. ;)

Hi Bill. Yes I haven't seen that anybody actually has stock of this recorder yet.

What you say about tape makes sense, I would still want to shoot tapes as archive. The thing about compact flash though is that the price is very reasonable compared with P2 or SxS cards, and it should be feasible to carry a few of them around. And of course, if you run out of cards once in a while and are not in a position to save the data, you still have the option to shoot tape only, or to reuse the CF card and store the tapes to capture later. Even if you could only cut your tape captures by half, I thought it should still be worth considering.

Richard

Re: tapeless capture. There's been a lot written here and elsewhere. Eliminating capture is good. Archiving... a problem.

I have alternate suggestion. When I shoot a race, I end up with 7 or 8 tapes. Since I have and HV10 and HV30 and two systems with with CS3 installed, I capture on two systems simultaneously, to the internal drive on the editing system and to a USB drive on the second. Then when the capture's done, I move the USB drive to the edit system and dump the footage to the internal drive. Much faster overall.

The added benefit of the second system is that whilst the edit system is rendering/rebooting/whatever, I'll use the 2nd system to prep graphics or work on audio. Net result is that I'm more productive.

This may or may not work for you. I'm just putting it out there as an alternative. Oh BTW, the 2nd system is a laptop with Encore so I can take it with me to the race and go direct to disk.... if it's not raining.

So much good input :-)

The 170 appears to have a lens wobble that actually shifts the image in the frame - it is so pronounced, Panasonic and several heavyweights are trying to sort out the issue - Panasonic has "repaired" several of them but the wobble persists. The 170 also has more noise than some were expecting - the guess is that they had to turn up the default gain due to the slower lens at full zoom. I'm waiting to see what develops - these issues have cooled me on that model for now. The HMC 150 may exhibit some of the same issues - more tolerable at that price range but not as clean as I would hope for.

The EX1 is at the top of my price range - still not sure about the CMOS artifacts. My concern is, having little experience / first hand knowledge, is that if I buy one and the artifacting bites me in the rear I will really feel stupid as I have read so much about it.

The new SONY recording module has me very interested as well - especially at the current price of the A1 - with the module we are still at less than an EX1 or 170 and can have it both ways I guess? The A1 is very proven - love the 20X L glass - and is so available.

That is where my going in circles continues to return me.

Would one of you experienced gurus outline the NLE workflow involving the A1, SONY recorder, and Mac computers - that would really help.

Most of you have probably read all of this - but:

HPX170 Lens Wobble Improved - DVXuser.com -- The online community for filmmaking (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=148822)

The 170 and 150 are two different animals entirely (and not to be confused with Sony's old 150 and 170). The 170 does DVCPRO HD onto P2 cards--it's like the HVX200 but without the tape mechanism. The 150 shoots AVCHD onto CF cards, so they are cheaper but you have to be sure your NLE will handle AVCHD OK.

Personally I would go with the EX1 simply because of its 1/2" chips if for no other reason. As I've said earlier, in shooting for 8 or 9 days over a 3 week period with an A1U, I saw no evidence of any problems with the CMOS chip. Another good thing about the EX1 is that you're not married to a proprietary format like P2, so there's more than one brand of card out there.

You could also look at the Z7, which gives you tape or the hard drive--same little drive that will work on the Canon if/when it becomes available as a separate item.

The problem with hanging around these boards and reading too much is that you can get bogged down in measurebating. Chris's term, not mine, although I wish I had coined it. People talk about artifacts you'll probably never see, the true believers for one brand or format or another will promote their belief to extremes, and on and on. I'm not saying you shouldn't gather all the info you can, and this is a good place to do it...but you eventually have to see a camera in person before buying, in my opinion. When I bought mine, I had used a Z1 and was all prepared to buy it until the XH A1 was announced. I was going to fly to N.Y. to check it out at B&H but fortunately a dealer here got one before I needed it and I was able to get some hands on time without buying a plane ticket. Flying to N.Y. might seem extreme, but you look at the cost of a round trip ticket--fly up early in the morning, come back that night--and cab or subway fare, and it's not all that much to be sure before spending a lot of serious money.

Bill - all good points. In the DSLR world the pixel peepers and techoids can provide so much info and differing points of view that you become frozen. Your point on artifacts is most relevant.

Composition, content, flow add more value than pixel peeping unless something really serious shows up. I have about another month before I have to purchase - someone pointed out that this should really be an easy decision - the + / - are fairly well documented. The torture comes from weighing the relative impact on what you think you need to get done :-)

The 150 shoots AVCHD onto CF cards...Sorry, Bill -- the 150 shoots AVCHD onto SDHC cards. Don't mean to nitpick, but there is a pretty big difference in form factor between CF and SDHC cards.

you can get bogged down in measurebating. Chris's term, not mine...Wish I could take credit for it, but the term was actually coined by Ken Rockwell, not me.

Thanks for that catch, big difference for sure. I knew that, but CF just sorta came out, I guess. Darn, I always thought you coined the term. I've quoted it for a long time now. The baton shall be passed to Rockwell.

I have used Serious Magic's DV Rack as well as Ultra for several years now. I use a laptop for the software and DV Rack has a multitude of controls to help one hone in on excellent recordings (including focus). Serious Magic was purchased by Adobe in October 2006.

It is a wonderful system. I have Edius loaded on my laptop also and can edit on site if I wish. The only drawback is the fact that you are tethered to the laptop.

Capture Magic HD works with the A1. Trial Version here:

Capture Magic HD 1.0 software download - Mac OS X - VersionTracker (http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/32801)

The reasons I give assurance to the XH-A1 comes from my own EX1. I know firsthand the picture quality is fully its peer in 60i. They digress a little bit at 24p, the EX1 bettering its own 60i performance and the XH-A1 not quite as good at 24p as its own 60i. The EX1 is several stops more useful in low light. The EX1 audio is uncompressed as well. I observed the advantage of that in a side by side concert shoot last July. But the camera is big bucks more, especially right now. So if you need it, you need it. But the XH-A1 is way disproportionately better in a lot of circumstances, faster focus, better lens. About the latter, the XH-A1 lens stays sharper at 20x zoom than the EX1 at 14x, for distant targets like landscapes. The EX1 lens does remain razor sharp at full zoom on closeup subjects like portraits, so saying the XH-A1 lens is better is maybe jumping the gun, but not by much. At the wide end, the EX1 is absent of CA, probably owing to electronic reprocessing, the XH-A1 suffers there by comparison only, since all the HD cams have this to some degree or more, and even the EX1 shows it at 14x on distant targets. I don't need to say anything about the tapeless acquisition, most everyone seems sold on that although to me its more about the image quality and ability to shoot slo-mo, fast, time-lapse etc. The XH-A1 is also lighter and easier to manage handheld for extended periods. The XH-A1 has a better viewfinder, the EX1 has the better LCD.

This is just my opinion, but I prefer the XH-A1 over everything else in the class besides the EX1 for the reason that they got the most important elements right for me, outstanding Canon L series lens with ring focus, zoom and iris, and a high resolution 1440x1080 imager, and top notch DSP encoding, the image remains very clean and organic. Add one more, a wealth of high end image control features. Suffice to say, if you have the EX1 you'll love that camera too like your Ferrari, goes 198 mph but high maintenance.

Tom & others - part of going around in circles has to do with the various "weighting" we give each of the pros & cons - a 5% better (whatever that means) LCD vs some amount of CA at full zoom or ultra low light noise or..........

Another contributor to the indecisive issue is the marginal quality of many of the sample clips that I see on Vimeo or........

That said - take the cost / bang for the buck off the table - not an issue at this level of purchase.

Two primary types of shots:

As many as three people in frame - interior lighting - little motion - cine look.

The other main shot is landscape - city views and nature (as in the cliff tops at Big Sur with the rocks and surf below in frame) - acceptable lighting - some motion. Some cine look emphasis but with HD DETAIL more in play.

XH A1 or EX1?

Another contributor to the indecisive issue is the marginal quality of many of the sample clips that I see on Vimeo or........?

Look at Steven Dempsey's videos

Capture Magic HD works with the A1. Trial Version here:

Capture Magic HD 1.0 software download - Mac OS X - VersionTracker (http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/32801)

Capture Magic also bypasses QuickTime and its limitations entirely, so you can capture more than one source at a time. I capture two concurrent firewire sources without a hitch to the same computer. The only downside to the application is that it hasn't been updated in quite a while, but it does what it says it will do and didn't have any problem when I switched to OS 10.5.

The XH A1 will do all that you need to do with no problems and is one of the most cost effective ways to do so. But if the company's buying the camera, it would be a nice opportunity to get an EX1. I always like bigger chips, although I don't particularly like the tapeless workflow. You can't judge anything by what you see on Vimeo or Youtube. Take a look at all those XH A1 clips that are posted on here.

The EX1 is a pig if you have to hand-hold it though. If you need the overcranking and can afford the extra, I would go for the EX3. Of course if you always use a tripod the EX1 should be fine.

Richard

Tripod it is - and I was surprised at all the choices / decisions out there as well :-)

After trying out several, I went with the Libec LS - 38M (mid level spreader). It has a great price and the smoothest movement of all the fluid heads I checked out. At least that is one decision I won't have to go in circles with anymore.

As a beginner - one tends to think of lots of panning and tilting. As I carefully watch movies I see far less use of those techniques in favor of what appears to be different angle static shots with minimal zooming / panning / tilting. So - I continue to watch, see & learn.

All of you have presented so much information & experience - thanks so much. I still have about a month before I may have to make the purchase - circle / circles & more circles :-)

...I would still want to shoot tapes as archive...
In that case, your choice is between Canon and Sony HDV offerings. In all cases, you can add the Sony CF Card recorder (included with the Sony Z7) if you want the solid-state options, or the Sony or Fire Store hard-drive recorders for longer recording times.

If you really have a problem with CMOS rolling shutter, then it's either a Canon or a Sony FX1/Z1, and if you want the Sony, get one soon, before supply trickles out. The CMOS FX1000/Z5 will replace them in the next few months. You may be able to get a healthy discount on the old models. Actually, with the XH-A1S just announced, there may be discounts to be had on the current Canon, too. I chose the Canon over the Sony 2 years ago and don't regret it. If you need a camera now, go for the XH-A1.

Like Bill Pryor, I can't see the rolling shutter being a problem except in quite extreme situations. Therefore, if you are not in a hurry, I'd say wait for January, then compare the Sony FX1000/Z5 with the XH-A1S. (If only the Canon could record video to it's internal SDHC card drive, it would be the winner, hands down, but it can't!)

There's no substitute for getting your hands on the rival models. The narrow technical differences are less important than not being able to reach an important button or having to squint through the eyepiece!

BTW, according to a chap who works for the UK importer, the Panasonic HMC150 and HPX170 share quite a lot of engineering, including the lens I think. The principle difference is that 150 records AVCHD onto SDHC and the 170 records DVCPro-HD onto P2, which is a vastly more expensive workflow.

If you go for the Sony EX1 or EX3, then check out the Kingston SD/SxS adaptor that allows you to use SDHC cards - there are lots of threads about this elsewhere...

You bring up a very good point about the XH A1s...that makes it a very good time to buy an XH A1. The upgraded model will be selling at full retail price for a few months, and the XH A1 is now going for under $3200 (USD) at B&H.