Sorry, this is my first post here so go easy on me chaps!

I've been delaying getting myself a camcorder for years now, and I can't see myself having £2k to spend on a Z1, which I initially wanted.

So... I think i've settled on the HV30. The only thing that's putting me off are the scare stories of wobble, lots of ghosting etc.

Now... I've read these and it's got me worried, yet I've seen amazing things filmed also... White Red Panic being one. Are there proper ways to eliminate ghosting? Do you have to film everything on a tripod and keep everything still, realistically, to rid your shots of ghosting? Does removing pull down cure this?

I know these questions have been answered before but sometimes I read that it's fine, then someone comes along and says the ghosting is bad etc.

If someone could basically tell me if the HV30 is still worth getting not only as a first camera, but as something to make proper short films with too.

Thanks guys!

I shoot the HV20 right along with my FX1. In most situations the HV20 can match the FX1.

There are situations where you will experience some issues, but you learn, like any other piece of equipment, what you can and can't do with it.

My film located here was shot with the HV20:


UWOL X FIlms (http://www.uwolchallenge.com/UWOL11.html)

If someone could basically tell me if the HV30 is still worth getting not only as a first camera, but as something to make proper short films with too.

Thanks guys!


I've only had HV30's for a few months but I can definitely vouch for the quality of the image. I match it up with Canon's A1 and I'm continually amazed at how the 30 holds up. You probably know this but many use 35mm lens adapters with the 30 that can go a long way towards improving the look. For short films where you have control of your lighting it would be wonderful as long as you acquaint yourself with the workarounds to eliminate any gain. I simply put a flash card in which allows you to check the iris setting with a press of the photo button while you change the exposure. As you open the iris you want to stop at the point the fstop doesn't open any further. At that point the camera is dipping into the gain to brighten the image. Its only then that the image will begin showing noise. The 30's noise isn't pretty.

Shot this yesterday. Just a few shots needed color correction for a blue cast when the shot was all in the shade.

~ Halloween 2008 ~ (http://tinyurl.com/5dc7vp)

I think i've settled on the HV30. The only thing that's putting me off are the scare stories of wobble, lots of ghosting etc.Are there proper ways to eliminate ghosting? Do you have to film everything on a tripod and keep everything still, realistically, to rid your shots of ghosting? Does removing pull down cure this?If someone could basically tell me if the HV30 is still worth getting not only as a first camera, but as something to make proper short films with too.Thanks guys!

Ross - go ahead and buy with confidence. OK, you could have four HV30s for the price of a Z1 and this should tell you quite a bit about the capability differences, but by no means does this say that the Sony produces films that are 4x better.

Remember there are no professional camcorders - only professional people. Forget the wobble, pull-down and ghosting stories and get out there and film. A tripod will double your picture sharpness at a stroke, but if this leads to yawn-a-mile movies, forget it.

Tape still has a huge following, and Sony's new Z5 (not even introduced till next month) is tape driven. Tape is 13 gb/£ whereas as SDHC card is ½ gig/£, so archiving on tape is very sensible. Not only that but HDV is easy for computers to edit.

The Canon's performance belies its price in my view. It does have its limitations but a lot of that has to do with the picnic-cam styling and dinkiness of the thing. Yes, it's certainly worth getting as a first camera and yes, you can make proper films on it. But then again if you're a filmmaker you can make proper films on practically any camcorder.

tom.

The original poster might want to read the reviews of the tapeless Canon HF10, HF11 and the HV30. The bottom line of the very exhaustive reviews is that if you want to make a movie, the HV30 is the way to go in cameras of this category.

I recently (in the past few weeks) purchased and HV30 from B&H and love it! I haven't had much time to work with it as the day job is hectic at the moment. What I have shot has mostly been on auto and I am impressed with the picture quality, and ease of use.

I'm not one to spend money foolishly, I do have a wife and 4 kids to support after all, so I thought long and hard and did as much research as I could. I'm a bit old school and prefer tape. It's an automatic backup. I know HD space is cheap, but I can rationalize $3 for a tape more than a couple hundred for a hard drive just for backup of my original footage (is that term even "proper" in this digital age??)

What I did shoot recently was completely hand held, basically on auto. I forced SD export and edited in Vegas 6, the quality took a hit on the export and then flash conversion, but believe me the original video is stellar quality. (I wasn't sure if my pc was up to HD, I later found out it is after getting Vegas 8).

It's the Batsto County Living Fair video at losttownsvideo.com (http://www.losttownsvideo.com) not much of a video, but it is what it is.

Hi Ross,

If you haven't bought one yet I'm looking for one more HV30 and found this deal:

Canon HV30 MiniDV 1080p HD Camcorder $617 - dealmac.com (http://dealmac.com/Canon-VIXIA-HV30-Mini-DV-1080-p-HD-Camcorder-for-617-free-shipping-updated-/258576.html)

Hi Ross,

If you haven't bought one yet I'm looking for one more HV30 and found this deal:

Canon HV30 MiniDV 1080p HD Camcorder $617 - dealmac.com (http://dealmac.com/Canon-VIXIA-HV30-Mini-DV-1080-p-HD-Camcorder-for-617-free-shipping-updated-/258576.html)

Even better deal at amazon -
Amazon.com: Canon VIXIA HV30 MiniDV High Definition Camcorder $601 with free shipping (http://www.amazon.com/Canon-HV30-Definition-Camcorder-Stabilized/dp/B00114PN1U?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1226713661&sr=8-1#)

Yes. For the same cost of a z1 you can get 2 HV30's, a letus, a merlin, and some decent sticks and lights for low light. The return in production value will be much higher.

Yes. For the same cost of a z1 you can get 2 HV30's, a letus, a merlin, and some decent sticks and lights for low light. The return in production value will be much higher.


That may be true, but it also depends on what you use your camera for. e.g. for event work where you don't have much control over light conditions, the Z1 is very solid and is a lot more contrallable hence more versatile than the HV30. And of course with the Z1 there is no rolling shutter problem which is always an issue when photographers' flashguns go off.

Having said that, I would agree that the HV30 is a remarkable cam at its price point and is capable of very good results.

Richard

I think Richard has some excellent points. Z1 is far more customizable and much better in low light. With HV30 you have to bring lights and Richard is absolutely right about it being a poor choice for weddings where flash photography is popping.

When I'm doing shots with a lot of action and running an HV30 on a merlin I notice about 5-10% of my shots suffer from skewing.

It's wierd. With waterproof housing, I've cliff-dived with them and the shots look fine flying through the air. No skewing at all until you hit the water. But if I'm walking behind my kids and pan a little too fast it's there. But if you're on a budget, I'd say don't be afraid of the HV30. I was apart of a documentary that won two film festivals that was shot entirely on HV20's and 30's that were up against films shot on, well, film. Much less a Z1.

bh has them for $600 now. Would you use this camera for wedding videos or DVD brochures? I assume that it will be fine for web videos and what not, but I am seriously considering the HF11 instead.

Neither the HF11 or HV30 would be great for weddings. Like Richard pointed out, the HV30 would have some problems when flashes occur and they'would be grainy without the proper lighting which is hard to do running and gunning at a wedding. For weddings I always borrow my neighbors old Xl-1 and shoot in SD. You might consider a used one, unless you're bent on HD.

I've heard alot of skepticism about CMOS sensors and am wondering if anyone has any comments on 3CCD VS CMOS in this respect.

Thanks
Terry.

I've heard alot of skepticism about CMOS sensors and am wondering if anyone has any comments on 3CCD VS CMOS in this respect.



Hi,

They are different and have different characteristics. Whether that will have a significant impact upon your work is another thing.

CMOS technology reduces smear and increases battery life at the cost of a rolling shutter and skew for moving objects.

If your work is in an environment that is bombarded with flashes (constantly) or you do a lot of work dingy florescent lighting say in a factory where you have little to say about the ballast, you might want to use CCDs.

Mike

So then would the CCD route be the more rounded choice?

I am currently renting a camra that is 3CCD. Its a Panisonic PV gs500 and it shoots ok..but not nearly as good as the clips I've seen from the HV30 posted above. However, my shots consist of fast pace skateboarding and boxing that was sort of in low light so perhaps that had an effect on the outcome of my footage.

I think we've got to admit that CMOS technology in camcorders is fledgling technology right now, whereas CCDs are very mature. CMOS will undoubetedly take over if Sony have their way (as has happened alost entirely in the DSLR field), but for now they solve some aspects (smear) while introfucing nasty partially exposed frames when confronted by electronic flash.

Panasonic and Canon's newest cams are 3 CCD whereas Sony's is CMOS. Generally, where Sony leads others follow - though this didn't happen with El-cassette, Betamax, MicroMV and Minidisc.

tom.

Hi all,

I think CMOS is here to stay.

CMOS is cheaper to make and use. Battery life is longer - that matters to consumers.

Sony and Red (and certainly others) are using parallel technology to mimic a mechanical shutter in as much as it can to reduce the effect of skew and rolling shutter. It's still there, but then in a focal plane shutter in an SLR it's there, too; it is what it is.

Which one (sensor) you want to get should be based upon what you want to do. I have an HVX200 for my professional work. The CCDs in it provide a film-like environment and can give me - with care - almost whatever I need to include frame rate when I need it.

But I also use small cameras with 35mm adapters, too. Those are CMOS. And again, with care - you'd think you're looking at a 35mm film.

Tools are what they are. Knowing how to use them is what makes the difference.

Mike

Even better deal at amazon -
Amazon.com: Canon VIXIA HV30 MiniDV High Definition Camcorder $601 with free shipping (http://www.amazon.com/Canon-HV30-Definition-Camcorder-Stabilized/dp/B00114PN1U?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1226713661&sr=8-1#)

Dropped again:

Canon HV30 MiniDV 1080p HD Camcorder $550 - dealmac.com (http://dealmac.com/Canon-VIXIA-HV30-Mini-DV-1080-p-HD-Camcorder-for-550-free-shipping/264363.html)

The fact you can get an HV30 today for what used to be the price for a high end ZR is pretty amazing. The fact the the image quality bar has dropped so much in the last few years is just mind-boggling, especially with the 5DmkII and other DSLRs. I've been logging vacation footage I shot 7 years ago with a then-top-of-the-line Canon GL-1, and I keep wondering if it's all out of focus.

I don't think anybody would be unhappy with an HV30 at this price point. I'm seriously tempted myself.

The main advantages, generally of the Prosumer cameras over the HV20/HV30:

* Better Low Light Performance
* XLR Input
* Focus Rings instead of a small, fiddly thingy on the side
* Better gain control.

The main advantage of the HV20/30 over the Prosumer cameras:

* More portability
* Costs roughly 3-4 times less

Ways to compensate for the HV20/30's limitations compared to the Prosumer cameras

* Bring Lights.
* Buy an XLR adapter. (Around $200)
* Go with a 35mm adapter (Around $1500 but one for the prosumer costs just as much.)

--------

Here's my recommendations:

Weddings: The low-light performance of the wedding just generally looks more professional and means you have to do less in post. Wedding videographers usually don't have a whole lot of turnaround time. Additionally, the increased weight of the prosumer lines means that handheld shots are smoother and easier to handle.

Documentaries: This is probably where the HV20/30 price/performance solution has it's greatest advantages. Buying two HV20/30s allows you to get multiple camera angles, good for interviews, or, with two cameramen, capture two or more different angles of the event. Additionally, the portability of the HV20 means that you can avoid a hell of a lot of scrutiny. A big jobby like the Z1 or XH-A1 immediately makes you stand out as "I am a serious media person. I am seriously going to ask hard questions that will make your candidate look bad. I've used the HV20 on airplanes without anyone caring, took footage of former presidents, etc. If people are likely to harass you for filming without a permit, they're less likely to give you a hard time when they see the little camera than when they see the big one - the big one means "you should have known better" and the little one means "you're just some kids - keep it clean, no harm, no foul."

Short Films: If you can control the lighting, go with the HV20, especially because you can do a two-camera solution and get a natural feel to conversations. However, if you think you can turn the short film around in a weekend, rent, rather than buy, two Prosumer cams.

Amateur filmmakers: Start with the HV20/30 and learn the basics before moving up to the big guns.

Beautifully put Brian - word perfect.

Thanks for the info Brian

Go with a 35mm adapter (Around $1500 but one for the prosumer costs just as much.)

For anyone in search for a better 35mm adapter solution for your 20/30 and soon to be 40s, there are cheaper alternatives. RNC35 and twoneils. Google these two names. I have heard good reviews about the twoneils adapters. But do your research!

Thanks for the info Brian



For anyone in search for a better 35mm adapter solution for your 20/30 and soon to be 40s, there are cheaper alternatives. RNC35 and twoneils. Google these two names. I have heard good reviews about the twoneils adapters. But do your research!



I just ordered the TwoneilHd 35mm for my 2 hv30's I have ($227.00 each). From what I've seen that 35mm len delivers excellent results. The RNG35 is another very good 35mm for about $670. Here is a video of the Twoneil Winter on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/2957886) and one with the RNG35 Christmas Eve To Day on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/2641548)

I've only had HV30's for a few months but I can definitely vouch for the quality of the image. I match it up with Canon's A1 and I'm continually amazed at how the 30 holds up. You probably know this but many use 35mm lens adapters with the 30 that can go a long way towards improving the look. For short films where you have control of your lighting it would be wonderful as long as you acquaint yourself with the workarounds to eliminate any gain. I simply put a flash card in which allows you to check the iris setting with a press of the photo button while you change the exposure. As you open the iris you want to stop at the point the fstop doesn't open any further. At that point the camera is dipping into the gain to brighten the image. Its only then that the image will begin showing noise. The 30's noise isn't pretty.

Shot this yesterday. Just a few shots needed color correction for a blue cast when the shot was all in the shade.

~ Halloween 2008 ~ (http://tinyurl.com/5dc7vp)

Joel, what a great film! great job on the cinematography, angles, etc. the quality looks great, not any noise from what i could see indoors! nice blacks. what did you export to? settings? it's a constant battle for me to export to a nice looking HD look. i liked his costume as well...cute kid.

Hi Steve,

Joel, what a great film! great job on the cinematography, angles, etc. the quality looks great, not any noise from what i could see indoors! nice blacks. what did you export to? settings? it's a constant battle for me to export to a nice looking HD look. i liked his costume as well...cute kid.

Thanks! Its a great little camera. (And a great little robot.) As you already know keeping the gain low with the exposure lock trick is important. I would have brightened the indoor scenes if I color corrected it at all. For encoding I use Telestream's Episode Pro - Flash 8 2-pass VBR. I think its encoded at 800 kbps but it might be 1000. It was shot at 24p so no de-interlacing was necessary. I really wish I could upgrade to the HV40's so I didn't have to transcode the HV30's footage to true 24p rather than being wrapped in a 60i wrapper. That's only necessary when I need to edit the footage with the XHA1 in FCP.

thanks Joel for the response! I appreciate it. I wound up ordering an HV30 last night, after days of reading and thinking. I just don't want to mess with any new format, as I had my nightmare fill with the TOD files from JVC when I had that HD7 for about a week. Great cam, really bad in low light. Anyway, I'm not familiar with the exposure lock trick, as I have not done much with tricks or what-have-you. I agree, you need to keep the gain low...but...what is the trick if you're in a darker room, or regular room, like a family room, or a church? Keep it at 0db, no gain, and at 1/30 shutter, then boost in AE? On my A1 I have the gain no higher than 6db. I need to read the manual, since, it seems to me, that when i boost to 6db, it jumps for a second, get some zebras, then it goes away...as if I made no changes to settings. But, i pretty much always shoot on 0db, 1/30 if indoors, and lowest aperture, and go from there. stupid question maybe, but, depth of field really doesn't work by adjusting aperture unelss you're in manual focus right? autofocus doesn't show DOF.... is that correct? because with my XH A1 i don't get DOF...shoot in auto only.
thanks again!
Steve

Keep it at 0db, no gain, and at 1/30 shutter, then boost in AE?.stupid question maybe, but, depth of field really doesn't work by adjusting aperture unelss you're in manual focus right? autofocus doesn't show DOF.... is that correct? because with my XH A1 i don't get DOF...shoot in auto only.

You're a bit confused Steve, but here goes. Firstly - it's always better to get the exposure correct at the scene of the crime rather than relying on post corrections. If you up the gain by 6dB then ok, it will get a bit grainier, a bit softer and the colours will be slightly muted.

But if you try and claw back a stop in post the damage is far worse, so don't go avoiding gain up when you really need it. It's there on the camera for a very good reason.

Manual or auto focus has no bearing on the dof whatsoever. You're not getting differential focus (I think you're trying to say) on your XH-A1 because you're letting the camera decide on the gain and aperture values. To get limited dof you need full tele, wide aperture, close focus and the background far away. Full stop.

tom.

Hi Ross, I just ordered the HV30 along with the H43 WA...both for around $710 with free shipping. We are using it along with our Z1U and EX1. It intercuts well with them both and I'll purchase an extended 3 year Manufacturer Warranty that Includes Accidental Damage Coverage for $109. It's not the EX1, but all of the above is about the cost for one 16GB memory card for the EX1. My experience is that the HV30 is a fantastic bargin and a terrific tool. Easy to edit format and low stress.
Hope this helps,
Craig
Key West – Florida Keys - ConchTV - KeysTV (http://www.ConchTV.com)

Manual or auto focus has no bearing on the dof whatsoever. You're not getting differential focus (I think you're trying to say) on your XH-A1 because you're letting the camera decide on the gain and aperture values. To get limited dof you need full tele, wide aperture, close focus and the background far away. Full stop.

tom.

Tom, thanks for the info. I have not played with DOF at all with video, even though I have been working with video for years. What I film never required it...bands, corp stuff, etc. With my digital photography I get DOF easily regardless of the shot. Seems like with video the subject has to be very close in the foreground and the background far away. How close would you say? As an example, I can photograph a bride who is 10' from me with the background all out of focus....with video.....doesn't seem like I can do that?! Frustrating. I agree with you 100%. You must get your shot set at the scene of the crime and fix as little as possible in post. Speaking of that, do you import all your video into After FX to process then render, export, import into premiere? That's what I would do. Lots of work right? I have never done much post work either with regular shoots...certainly not weddings....too long to do. I get the settings right during the shoot, white balance at each scene, etc.
Thanks,
Steve

I can photograph a bride who is 10' from me with the background all out of focus....with video.....doesn't seem like I can do that?!

Imagine you were photographing this bride onto 2¼" square film in a Hasselblad, you'd get soft fore and backgrounds, right? Now you pick up your phone and take a 5 mp still of the bride, and everything's sharp right to infinity, again - right?

What you're seeing is this: it's all about chip sizes, and therefore focal lengths. So the smaller the chips, the less likely it is that you'll get the differential focus effects you're after.

So you can't say, 'with video it can't be done'. It can be done with an EX1 (½" chips) but probably not with a PDX10 (1"/5 chips).

Your HV30 is a goodie - it has 1"/2.7 chips - bigger than in an XH, HMC, Z or FX.

tom.

Hi Terry,

Thanks for the info Brian
For anyone in search for a better 35mm adapter solution for your 20/30 and soon to be 40s, there are cheaper alternatives. RNC35 and twoneils. Google these two names. I have heard good reviews about the twoneils adapters. But do your research!

Thanks for lead on twoneils. I ordered one today. Also ordered a Nikon 50 F1.4. Should be fun!

Just a follow-up:

I bought a twoneil adapter - no achromat so there is a little vignetting. I actually like the look - I often add a subtle vignette anyway. I sent my HV30 away for the FlipHack while I waited for the adapter to arrive as well as purchased a 50mm 1.4 off of ebay for $60. My father-in-law crafted a bracket so I can mount the camera upside-down on a tripod or monopod. Short movie of that here, using the adapter and lens a day after the adapter arrived:

~ Flip it ~ (http://www.WeddingFilms.com/flipit)



Hi Terry,



Thanks for lead on twoneils. I ordered one today. Also ordered a Nikon 50 F1.4. Should be fun!

Ace little film Joel. That adapter sure makes your little HV look like $15000 on screen - and that's what matters.

Ace little film Joel. That adapter sure makes your little HV look like $15000 on screen - and that's what matters.

Thanks Tom! Its a fun little rig. And at 24 fps and 1/24th shutter the low-light sensitivity is pretty good. I've got to watch out for dust though. There's a piece that shows up a lot. I did order the achromat lens - will hopefully make the edge-to-edge sharpness better and lessen the vignetting at the expense of a longer lens.

Just a shot of the configuration:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachment.php?attachmentid=11752&stc=1&d=1239808363

I use my XH-A1 as main cam. Then an HV30 as B-roll cam. A second HV30 mounted on Merlin steadicam. Both HV30 works well.