I saw where this month Sony is finally supposed to release as a stand a lone item the "Sony MRU" Compact Flash recording unit that comes with the Z7 camera.

However October is almost over and my internet search has failed to come up with much about it. B&H doesn't show it when I put the model number in their search box nor did a google, pricgrabber or nextag search bring up any merchants with it.

Does anybody have any information about this?

As you are aware, the unit is included in the box when you buy the hvr-z7u camcorder.

It isn't an item that we currently stock as the only sales that we usually anticipate for this item would be if a customer needed to replace a lost or damaged unit.

However, we would be able to order one for you - the cost will be $899.95 (although I would not be able to give you an ETA at present)

Sincerely

Helen Oster
Adorama Camera Customer Service Ambassador
helen.oster@adoramacamera.com

Helen,

Yes I am aware it is a part of the Z7. I am the owner of two V1U's and have been waiting for it to be sold by itself as a Sony rep told me it would be back when the Z7 came out.

It is not in my budget right now but I have been anxious to see what it is going to sell for so I can plan.

Thanks for your info!

I noticed B&H is taking orders...

Sony | HVR-MRC1 MEMORY RECORDING UNIT | HVR-MRC1 | B&H Photo (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/580065-REG/Sony_HVR_MRC1_HVR_MRC1_MEMORY_RECORDING_UNIT.html)

Full Compass is also taking orders as well.

Any reason this wouldn't work on a non-Sony camera (JVC 110) via firewire.

In case you want to see the operations manual....

Sony Product Detail Page - HVRMRC1K (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-broadcastcameras/cat-hdv/product-HVRMRC1K/)

Ray, thanks much

I saw a lot of reference to iLink throughout - it was my understanding that iLink was Sony's "brand" name for firewire (which was actually Apple's name for the same thing - otherwise knowwn as IEEE 1384) I think iLink only supports the 4 line connector, though

Which leads me to think it shuold attach to any firewire capable camera. But it would be nice to be sure before spending the $$$.

I get mine tomorrow and will be glad to post some feedback in regards to compatibility with the Z1U.

I can't wait, I love brown boxes that say BH on them.

Tim

Any reason this wouldn't work on a non-Sony camera (JVC 110) via firewire.

I think the biggest problem using this with a JVC isn't the firewire connection, or the brand of camera. The tech specs for the Sony recorder just list 1080i and 1080p, not 720p. So I think the HD100/110 is a no-go. The HD200/250 might work, if it's set to deliver 1080i over firewire.

I'd love to be proven wrong on this, but it doesn't seem the Sony CF recorder does 720p.

I have no proof. BUT I think it works by recording the raw HDV stream coming out of the firewire port. I can't see why, from a technology perspective, it couldn't support any HDV stream. Data is data, I don't think the unit does anything other than write it to CF.

I could be wrong, I haven't bought one yet but plan to soonish (For an XH-A1).

Ok, so I have had a little time with this recorder and I haven't had the opportunity to put it through a real world test as of yet. But I got a good handle on what it can and can't do.

WHATS IN THE BOX?
The unit comes complete with recording unit and docking station along with a firewire cable and mounting hardware for any camera with a cold shoe. A manual is included on CD as well as a second CD including all software needed to connect the device to your editing system. There isn't an external AC adaptor or battery included with this unit. These items are available as an accessory.

DURABILITY / BUILD / FORM FACTOR
I was very surprised at the size of the unit. With docking station and battery attached it was still very manageable and didn't give me any worries about attaching it to the camera. The Z1U has a mounting point on top of the built in microphone. The unit attaches directly without any shoe mounts. The screw on the mounting hardware is standard size so you could in effect mount it on any hardware available for your camera. The unit seems to be very durable and built well. It is plastic, however, all the crucial areas are covered and hidden from the elements. The CF card is located under a door on the side of the unit. Firewire is connected to the docking station as well as the mounting hardware. So in my filming situations (very hard) it seems that is will hold up very well. The only setback on the unit are the small control buttons on the device itself. The LCD screen is rather smallish. I'm still young enough that I don't think it will bother me, but I could see it being a problem for those people who have trouble seeing.

BATTERY / USE LIFE / ETC
This device uses the Sony InfoLITHIUM batteries NP-F570 through NP-F970. According to the manual you will get many hours of continuous use from the smallest batteries. Since I own (5) Z1U's and have never used the batteries that came with the cameras, this will give me an opportunity and a reason to use those batteries. According to the manual with the NP-F570 you would get 380 minutes of record time. From my limited use the device is not a power drain on the batteries. It seems that with only two of the small batteries you would get a full days worth of shooting without recharging.

OPERATION
The device is very simple to operate. It comes out of the box ready to go. Plug and go. I literally put a CF card in the recorder, formatted it and away I went. I even tried a card that wasn't formatted and it worked flawlessly without affecting the material already on the card. The file structure is simple. If you are recording in DV you get an IDX file and an AVI file. If you are recording in HDV you get an IDX file and a M2T file. Simple enough. One interesting side note and a little concerning. You cannot record from the camera to the unit using camera control without a tape. Or at least I haven't found the way to do it yet. You can however record without a tape in the unit by pressing the record buttons on the unit. Not a big deal, however, I can see why I would want to use the camera controls in the field, much easier to hit record on the camera instead of pressing the two very small record buttons on the unit. I have figured out how to press the two buttons with one thumb, but it would still be easier using the camera.

The cache recording feature I can tell I will use a ton. This allows you to store footage in memory (about 10-14 seconds) and records that footage to the CF card when the record button is pressed. This function will allow you to not miss any part of the recording because of the Z1U's slow record startup time on tape. I have found that at times that when recording to tape it just sometimes doesn't start fast enough.

In my situation with multiple cameras you can set the camera number in the menu system. This will allow you know which camera recorded what. The camera number is also recorded onto the the file itself, making it easy to visualize the camera and take you may need. 00_0002_2008-11-25_234240.m2t is the file naming situation given - camera number, clip number, date stamp, time recorded 00:00:00:00, extension.

You must use very fast compact flash cards to avoid frame drops. The minimum is 133X, I would recommend using the fastest you can afford. The minimum card size is 2GB / 9min. With a 16GB card you can get 72min of footage, either DV or HDV. I tested with a 2GB card as my 16GB cards are on the way. I can only think that you could use larger cards, however, the manual does not talk about the use of larger cards.

TRANSFERRING / USING FILES
You have two options for transferring the files to your computer. Number 1 is to connect the device to the computer and operate it in computer mode. This works pretty quick as it is firewire. Option 2 is to remove your CF card and transfer via a transfer device of some kind. Also pretty quick if you use a firewire device. USB / USB 2.0 was very slow for my taste. When transferring via an external device you must transfer the files as they are. ALL files or FCP will have an issue and may not import correctly. When using the unit itself it all works seamlessly in the background. In FCP you will use the Log and Transfer window along with the Sony FCP plugin. It will rewrap the file into a quicktime file and drop it into your project. The files are copied to your scratch disc as quicktime files. So in essence there is no need to keep the M2T files. However, I found this to be clunky and not needed for most situations. I like the idea of importing directly into FCP, however, in my environment I need to just get the files off and deal with them later. So I tried just moving the files from the card to the place I wanted to store them. Worked fine. Then I used ClipWrap to rewrap the files into a quicktime file. More steps, but actually faster in my life as I can be shooting to another card while one is working without much issue. Also, you maintain a backup copy of the M2T. The quality of quicktime file and M2T file seem to be identical.

The sony device uses the firewire port to determine the format. For example if you are down converting via firewire, the device will automatically select the proper format. You can record HDV on tape and downconvert to DV to the MRC1K and all of this is handled on the camera. You can force the unit to record in a certain format, however, I haven't seen why I would want that yet.

CONCLUSION
The Sony HVR-MRC1K is a very robust system allowing camera operators to use CF in a stable environment. It would be nice to have quicktime support in the unit so it becomes a truly drag and drop system, but it is really close now. It works as advertised and would be a good purchase for those wanting to get away from tape. Once I have it in a real world environment I will post back some findings. But for now it was a great purchase for my use.

Hey, Tim

I don't suppose you have access to a JVC ProHD camera, by any chance? I'm dying to find out if this thing will do 720 24p.

Hey Tim what kind and sizes of CF cards will the reader accept? I imagine you don't really need a super fast CF card to handle the HDV stream. I found a 16GB CF card from B&H for $45 and 32 GB cards for $87. This could give you much longer record times vs. tapes if these cards are compatible.

I used the SanDisk 2GB Extreme III card with 30mb write speed. The manual says that you need a minimum of 133X which is 20mb write speed. So I would stick with that or better. As far as size I would imagine you could use any size card.

9 minutes of record time for the 2GB card. So I would assume a 1GB card would net 4 minutes of record time. I have only seen the 32GB compact flash as far as the top end and I would assume you could use that as well.

I don't have access to a JVC however, the manuals specs say that it will accept 1080/60i, 30p, 24p as well as 1080/50i, 25p. I am not familiar with the JVC but I think it only sends a 720p signal. You have the progressive part covered, its the 720 that is the issue. If I was a betting man I would say it wouldn't work, but there may be smarter than me that can offer a thought process.

Ok, so I have had a little time with this recorder and I haven't had the opportunity to put it through a real world test as of yet. But I got a good handle on what it can and can't do.


OPERATION
One interesting side note and a little concerning. You cannot record from the camera to the unit using camera control without a tape. Or at least I haven't found the way to do it yet. You can however record without a tape in the unit by pressing the record buttons on the unit. Not a big deal, however, I can see why I would want to use the camera controls in the field, much easier to hit record on the camera instead of pressing the two very small record buttons on the unit. I have figured out how to press the two buttons with one thumb, but it would still be easier using the camera.

Tim, one question.
You mentioned that yo can use the MRC1 without tape in the camera, by just pushing record on the unit itself and not rely on the camera.

But what if you use tape.
Does the unit continue to run when you stop your recorder.
This means more to me in for times that I am making a tape change and was hoping that the MRC1 would not pause or stop while I was making the tape change.

I don't shoot with a Z1, but rather FX1's, but the overall menu setup and all are pretty much the same. Someone mentioned to me before in regards to the hard drive that Sony sells, that it will pause when you are making tape changes and not continue to record.

I guess that you could just shoot with the MRC1 and no tape, but I like the idea of using the CF files for instant editing and tape for backup and archival.

The unit continues to work during tape changes without issue. There are some settings you need to make on the unit to make this possible, but all very simple.

The unit works independent or in conjunction with the tape. No worries there.

It works with the external camera control feature. The camera will send a signal to the device when there is 5 minutes left on the tape then the device will begin recording allowing you to change tapes. Once the tape change is complete, the unit will stop. Or it will stop when you press stop on the camcorder or unit itself.

That's great news.

I had been waiting for Sony to release this unit.

Now if only 64GB CF cards would start coming to market.

I ordered a firewire transfer device, crushproof and waterproof case along with (4) 16GB cards for $344 with shipping.

On one camera last year I used over 100 tapes on (1) project. Over the course of lifespan of the CF cards I can see how I would save a ton of money on tape. Considering that tape cost me $400. So even if I have to replace the Cf cards every 100 tapes worth I am still ahead when think about it in terms of:

- Less Threading and Tape hours on the cameras and decks used to play the tape back.
- More time working and editing and less time logging and capturing.
- instant editing of clips if need be

Just in those things right there, you will save a ton of time, thereby saving money. So the return on investment for a unit like this (doesn't have to be sony) is ten fold.

That's great news.

I had been waiting for Sony to release this unit.

Now if only 64GB CF cards would start coming to market.

Ah, in due time. 256 was just referenced from Samsung last week and Protec is (actually was) supposed to have 64 and 96 G available by the end of the year...guess the latter never happened, though.

[QUOTE=Tim Snyder;969234]

"WHATS IN THE BOX?
The unit comes complete with recording unit and docking station along with a firewire cable and mounting hardware for any camera with a cold shoe."

It has been difficult to get information on the compatibility of the MRC1K with other Sony cameras. A SONY rep told me on the phone last Friday, this CF unit was for professional cameras only.

From what you have seen of the MRC1K, would "any camera with a cold shoe" include the Sony HDR-FX1000? Does the mounting hardware look like its "universal", i.e. if it mounts on a cold shoe, could it be used to "salvage" an old Sony DCR-VX2000 with a broken tape mechanism (cleaning & alignment did not fix severe dropout problems)? Basis for my questions: I tested a Sony SR11 because it's tapeless & HD but returned it to the store because its color fidelity is not as good as that from my old 3CCD VX2K. I am considering the FX1000 now but am worried about the reliability of the miniDV tape medium/mechanism due to the problems I had with the VX2K. If the tape acted up again, at least the recording would be preserved on the CF.

I thought I read somewhere that you need to convert the file when you load it to your comp. If so what software are you guys using?
Also I was wondering if anyone new how to get it to record from the cam controls with out using a tape too?
thanks

[QUOTE=Tim Snyder;969234]

"WHATS IN THE BOX?
The unit comes complete with recording unit and docking station along with a firewire cable and mounting hardware for any camera with a cold shoe."

It has been difficult to get information on the compatibility of the MRC1K with other Sony cameras. A SONY rep told me on the phone last Friday, this CF unit was for professional cameras only.

From what you have seen of the MRC1K, would "any camera with a cold shoe" include the Sony HDR-FX1000? Does the mounting hardware look like its "universal", i.e. if it mounts on a cold shoe, could it be used to "salvage" an old Sony DCR-VX2000 with a broken tape mechanism (cleaning & alignment did not fix severe dropout problems)? Basis for my questions: I tested a Sony SR11 because it's tapeless & HD but returned it to the store because its color fidelity is not as good as that from my old 3CCD VX2K. I am considering the FX1000 now but am worried about the reliability of the miniDV tape medium/mechanism due to the problems I had with the VX2K. If the tape acted up again, at least the recording would be preserved on the CF.

The cold shoe device is simple. It will work with any standard cold shoe mount. It also has a screw that can be used in conjunction with the Z1U (on the top of the internal microphone) and I would assume any other camera with this thread size. IT also fits in the Z1U provided shoe mount. So it seems pretty versatile in mounting options. I have considered mounting this device on a bracket1 adaptor, however, when I received the device it was small enough to mounted on camera without worry of weighing the camera down or hurting the camera in some way.

I hope this helps.

Had a friend bring by his Panasonic HVX. The Sony recorder worked like a champ in every way expected. It obviously did not record the 720 signal, but DV and HD 1080i/p worked great.

Just wanted to give an update.

For those asking about using camera record controls with the MRCK1 and with no tape. It works just fine for my A1. I just followed the instructions posted by Evan on this page:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-xh-series-hdv-camcorders/116520-awesome-news-canon-users-10.html

...about half way down the page.

Whether you have to convert the files depends on the editing system you are using. Adobe Premiere reads native .m2t files so it's no problem. However, I have read that FCP does not, but there is a converter located on Sony's website to correct this problem.

The hotshoe mount is not camera specific. It will fit into any hotshoe.

From my understanding, the MRCK1 is compatible with just about any camera with a firewire port -- though, as Tim stated, it does not record the 720 signal.

So Tim,

When I import the files to my HD in Dv or Raw format my final cut pro 5 suite sees the video and plays fine but I get the Beep Beep Beep in the audio track. I see the waveform and the file plays fine in QT AND the preview window....

any clue as to what's goi on or do I just need to install FCS 2...?

So Tim,

When I import the files to my HD in Dv or Raw format my final cut pro 5 suite sees the video and plays fine but I get the Beep Beep Beep in the audio track. I see the waveform and the file plays fine in QT AND the preview window....

any clue as to what's goi on or do I just need to install FCS 2...?

Hi,
http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/mkt/broadcast/downloads/HDV_DV_Editing_Workflows.pdf

You need to install a plug-in into your FCP(6.0.2+) in order to import HDV/DV files from your CF card.

FCP can not import M2T HDV files without this plug-in.
For DV files (AVI or Raw), "Beep Beep Beep" never occurs if you use this plug-in !!

...From what you have seen of the MRC1K, would "any camera with a cold shoe" include the Sony HDR-FX1000? ...

According to B&H it is compatible with the FX1000 see the vid link below, then click on the window marked "Sony HVR-Z5U/HDR-FX1000 3-CMOS Pro HDV Camcorders. Toward the end of the vid they deal directly with the MRC1K.

http://www.video.bhphotovideo.com/

I thought I read somewhere that you need to convert the file when you load it to your comp. If so what software are you guys using?
Also I was wondering if anyone new how to get it to record from the cam controls with out using a tape too?
thanks

It probably depends on the camera itself. In the manual for the Z5 (on page 86) it explains how to record to an external device only (including the MRC1K), with or without a tape in the camera. So the simple answer is: Yes, the unit is capable of recording using the camera controls with no tape in the camera *IF* the camera also supports that mode of operation.

I am seriously considering the purchase of this recorder and I am wondering if any of you have updates on your experience with this unit, specific CF media experience, trying to get a feel for how much of an investment it really is. Have the cards been reliable? Did you have to go for the more expensive 300x-306x 16GB cards like the SONY brand cards currently $280-399 or have you been able to get good results from 133x 16 GB Kingston cards, currently 34.95? For my purposes, I will be recording 2 cameras 3-5 hrs so we are talking 2 units and 6-10 cards and that could add up to a ridiculous cost if only the faster cards are reliable. What about long form recording, I have seen several threads with people discussing issues stitching the files back together for Vegas...

So what do you guys think of your MRC1 and media?

Thanks!

I purchased MRC1K last week from B&H. I will be doing some tests in the next week to see how it matches up with the Sony FX1000. I bought some $70 32GB Qmemory cards to go with it. I balked at paying $225 for the Extreme III cards and they were impossible to find on the internet last week anyway. B&H just sent me a note saying they are in stock, FYI.

I will be traveling to India to film and I needed the ability to shoot HDV continuously for 2-3 hours between tape changes. I determined from the MRC1K manual that I can record indepedent from the tape with the Stop-Record buttons on the unit. What I am still curious about is what happens when you switch CF cards. Does the data store to the cache while the cover is open and then write to the card after it is installed?

If all looks good, I might stop shooting the tapes for backup and just go with the Flash recorder.

I'll publish my results. Thank you everyone for your contributions.

Mark i can't wait to hear your results! Please let us know how it goes.

Hi, I just received the MRC1K and it seems like a wonderful device! It mounts perfectly on top of the Z1 and looks great. I use it in combination with two SanDisk 8GB ExtremeIV cards. This gives me 37 minutes of recording on each card in DV mode.
But I have a few questions. Does anyone know if it's possible to use the record button on the Z1 (without a tape in it) to start recording on the device itself. I haven't had luck trying to establish this yet and I'm not sure if it's even possible. Also, if I playback files on the recorder unit, can I stay in camera mode on the camera or do I need to switch the camera to playback to watch the footage on the LCD of the Z1? I didn't get it to playback on camera in camera mode, but perhaps this will be possible if I change any settings.
Thanks!

When I put the camera in VTR mode I can watch back the footage on the camera's LCD screen. This works very nice and you can delete clips immediately if you don't like them.

But I think the i.LINK CRADLE is broken. The recorder doesn't want to record any footage of my camera anymore. Also in the menu, the i.LINK MODE option is greyed out. So it seems like the footage doesn't come in to the memory unit at all. You can playback footage on the unit itself, but it isn't showing up on the camera anymore. This problem showed up after trying to attach the unit to my computer yesterday. It didn't go into computer mode and was not recognized by my computer. Luckily I found another way of fast importing the footage, so I could start playing with the footage on Avid Media Composer (great workflow BTW, within seconds the footage can be used in the editing application). When I was done on the computer I justed mounted the unit back on the camera and switched it on this morning. And that's when I noticed it had stopped working.

I'm not sure if this has anything got to do with it, but yesterday the recorder stopped recording after about 13 / 15 second. It happened twice in a row so I started checking the settings. I thought that perhaps It was in some sort of cache mode. But everything seemed to be correct in the menu. And when I started recording again, the problem was gone. Very strange.

I will contact Sony soon and see if they can do anything about it.

Hi friends. Has anyone used this device for any timelapse shots ? If so, can you post a clip or share some feedback on what you thought of the results. BTW, does the Interval Recording feature function in all modes, including HDV ?

Hi friends. Has anyone used this device for any timelapse shots ? If so, can you post a clip or share some feedback on what you thought of the results. BTW, does the Interval Recording feature function in all modes, including HDV ?

I don't have any sources to back this up, but I'm pretty sure I remember hearing that this device only supports interval recording when using DV. My guess is that this is because HDV uses a GOP in order to get roughly the same amount of recording time on a DV tape.

I thought I read somewhere that you need to convert the file when you load it to your comp. If so what software are you guys using?
Also I was wondering if anyone new how to get it to record from the cam controls with out using a tape too?
thanks

You shouldn't have to transcode the file at all, but depending on what application you use to edit, you may need to rewrap it.

From what I've been reading, Final Cut Pro seems to be the only application that cannot import .m2t files (the files that the recorder saves to CF) natively. There are two solutions if you're going to be working with .m2t files in Final Cut.

1. Use the Sony plugin. Sony has written a plugin for Final Cut that will rewrap the files when you import them using Final Cut's Log and Capture window.

2. Use ClipWrap. ClipWrap is a third-party application made by DivergentMedia (same guys who made ScopeBox) that also does the same purpose as the Sony plugin, but handles it in a third-party app.

I believe that both solutions will join together sequentially recorded files (i.e. after the recorder reaches the FAT32 file size limitation, it has to start writing a second file, but both solutions will recognize those files and join them together into one).

I don't own an HVR-MRC1K recorder, nor have I used either the Sony plugin or ClipWrap.

I don't have any sources to back this up, but I'm pretty sure I remember hearing that this device only supports interval recording when using DV. My guess is that this is because HDV uses a GOP in order to get roughly the same amount of recording time on a DV tape....I also have contacted some local Sony reps to try and confirm if the Interval recording feature works in HDV mode. It *may* well function in HDV as well, because the shortest interval you can set on the device is 0.5 second. I think 1/2 second would corrispond to at least one set of Long GOP's in an HDV file. (??) The best thing to do is to get one of you who actually own one of these Sony CF recorders to shoot a test for me and confirm if they can shoot in the HDV mode. I hope one of you folks could help me out ? :-)

Unfortunately thought the .5 second min record time would lead you to think it can record on HDV GOP, it won't allow you to set the record mode to interval when recording HDV. I just tried to set this up on both a Canon HV20 and XL H1A. So, even thought this should be able to be done the Sony won't do it. I wonder if Sony could let the unit do it with a firmware update???

Garrett

Unfortunately thought the .5 second min record time would lead you to think it can record on HDV GOP, it won't allow you to set the record mode to interval when recording HDV. I just tried to set this up on both a Canon HV20 and XL H1A. So, even thought this should be able to be done the Sony won't do it. I wonder if Sony could let the unit do it with a firmware update???

Garrett.....Oh that's sad news Garrett :-( Thanks for the confirmation :-) I wish there was an affordable solution for for a SSD which can shoot timelapse in HD resolution which isn't 5K or more Dollars !

I did see a post the other day that was for a LANC controller that seemed like it may be promising. I can't remember which thread it was under but there were two different units the person mentioned. One seemed like it would be more for digital SLR's but the other specifically had a LANC controller function. If I run across it again I'll post the link.

Garrett

I did see a post the other day that was for a LANC controller that seemed like it may be promising. I can't remember which thread it was under but there were two different units the person mentioned. One seemed like it would be more for digital SLR's but the other specifically had a LANC controller function. If I run across it again I'll post the link.

Garrett..Thanks man :-) I so need to shoot timelapses all around the city of Montreal at Night, during the day, a sunrise sequence over the city, in order to finish a Tv episode I've been shooting this past Summer. I heard there is an nNovia deck which can shoot timelapse in HDV. I also heard there was an nNovia CF recorder, but I have not, as of yet, come across any information on the nNovia website which offers such a model. (???)
.

It is highly unlikely that these devices will provide the HDV timelapse function you are looking for. The reason is as follows.

Remember that these devices are designed first and foremost to take the FireWire streaming audio+video datastream and record it to flash or a hard drive. Consequently they do not have any sort of audio+video compression engine built into them. Zip, zero, nada. That is all being done by the camcorder.

Now in DV, each frame is its own little distinct entity. So all the recorder has to do is every so often pull out a frame and record it. Job done. Still no need to understand what is within that audio+video data block, just where it starts and ends in the ongoing stream.

In HDV, on the other hand, to do the same thing you are going to have to
1. Every so often pull out a GOP and decompress it into its individual frames.
2. Pick out the individual frame you want/need.
3. Over time accumulate those frames until you have enough to make up a GOP.
4. Compress that GOP and record it.
5. Repeat.

At this point you should start to see the difficulty. How does the above happen in a device that has no audio+video compression engine of its own?
And the equally obvious answer is: It doesn't.

The user manual for the MRC1K states that it does interval recording only on DV/DVCAM.

It is highly unlikely that these devices will provide the HDV timelapse function you are looking for. The reason is as follows.

Remember that these devices are designed first and foremost to take the FireWire streaming audio+video datastream and record it to flash or a hard drive. Consequently they do not have any sort of audio+video compression engine built into them. Zip, zero, nada. That is all being done by the camcorder.

Now in DV, each frame is its own little distinct entity. So all the recorder has to do is every so often pull out a frame and record it. Job done. Still no need to understand what is within that audio+video data block, just where it starts and ends in the ongoing stream.

In HDV, on the other hand, to do the same thing you are going to have to
1. Every so often pull out a GOP and decompress it into its individual frames.
2. Pick out the individual frame you want/need.
3. Over time accumulate those frames until you have enough to make up a GOP.
4. Compress that GOP and record it.
5. Repeat.

At this point you should start to see the difficulty. How does the above happen in a device that has no audio+video compression engine of its own?
And the equally obvious answer is: It doesn't....Hi Bill. I already proposed an engine of my own concept on another thread. I think there is an easy and viable way to do just what I wrote -Timelapse into an HDV file. I don't want to go into a great deal of specific detail until I have spoken to an electrical engineer and a lawyer buddy of mine to make sure I'm not stepping on someone else's patent, or someone reading my concept having more resources than I will simply rip it off and do it themselves ! (I've probably wrote too many specifics of my own design already). My unit would be quite small and retail for a price point around $950.00 US. If I was able to produce a prototype unit myself, then I would post a picture for you to see and some video of the results. For now, I think this work would be a hobby project, since I'm in production and I must make money. I do believe it would be a worthy pursuit to try and create such a recording solution at an affordable price.

The user manual for the MRC1K states that it does interval recording only on DV/DVCAM.


And given my prior explanation, now you know why.

Which also brings up the question: How good is that HDV timelapse going to look, even assuming it worked like you hoped for?

Answer: Not very

And the reason is as follows:

Even if the recorder did all that you hoped for, as you can see from my prior explanation, your frames will have undergone two levels of HDV compression before making it to the recorder medium, flash or hard drive. The first time was of course in the camera, the second time in the recorder.

HDV (MPEG2) compression works as well as it does because of the very basic assumption that the next frame is hugely redundant with this frame, ie. changes from frame to frame are relatively small.

In timelapse that assumption takes a big hit. In a timelapse sunrise, for instance, the lighting, which affects everything, is undergoing rapid changes from frame to frame. So you should expect the second level of HDV compression, ie. in the recorder, to take some large hits retaining detail.

I think a better way to do timelapse is to:
1. Record it normally with the camcorder. You could go to tape or use an external recorder such as the HVR-MRC1K or even to a laptop. But then you do the timelapse effect in the video editor. This has the beauty of eliminating that second level of HDV compression before the footage has even made it to your video editor. And it is easy, even if you don't like the volume of footage. It's what I would do.
2. Get a still camera shooting multimegapixel frames at the required interval and import that still image sequence into the video editor. The fact that you are now starting with images at a far higher level of detail than 1080 should mean that even with color correction, other effects, etc you should retain a fantastic level of detail. It will have the drawback of having a very different look than footage from your video camera of course. If shot in RAW, I would batch convert the images to DNG and then use Adobe's Photoshop tools to see if I could exposure+color correct it to something that worked well with your video footage. Once you are happy with that, if your video editor doesn't understand DNG, then again use Adobe to batch export the DNG's to JPEG and import the JPEG's. This of course is harder than #1, but the quality level should be very, very high.

I am only a hobbyist videographer. I may have missed something.
But I have a long career as a Computer Engineer. I know hardware and software, bits and bytes, from low level to high, pretty darn well.

I have yet to hear anyone answer or confirm if the Sony HVR-MRC1 will work with the JVC HD100 shooting 720p. I've called sony, I've called B&H, I've called JVC reps.

Can anyone just test this unit on a JVC HD100/110?!? Please?!!!

And given my prior explanation, now you know why.

Which also brings up the question: How good is that HDV timelapse going to look, even assuming it worked like you hoped for?

Answer: Not very

And the reason is as follows:

Even if the recorder did all that you hoped for, as you can see from my prior explanation, your frames will have undergone two levels of HDV compression before making it to the recorder medium, flash or hard drive. The first time was of course in the camera, the second time in the recorder.

HDV (MPEG2) compression works as well as it does because of the very basic assumption that the next frame is hugely redundant with this frame, ie. changes from frame to frame are relatively small.

In timelapse that assumption takes a big hit. In a timelapse sunrise, for instance, the lighting, which affects everything, is undergoing rapid changes from frame to frame. So you should expect the second level of HDV compression, ie. in the recorder, to take some large hits retaining detail.

I think a better way to do timelapse is to:
1. Record it normally with the camcorder. You could go to tape or use an external recorder such as the HVR-MRC1K or even to a laptop. But then you do the timelapse effect in the video editor. This has the beauty of eliminating that second level of HDV compression before the footage has even made it to your video editor. And it is easy, even if you don't like the volume of footage. It's what I would do.
2. Get a still camera shooting multimegapixel frames at the required interval and import that still image sequence into the video editor. The fact that you are now starting with images at a far higher level of detail than 1080 should mean that even with color correction, other effects, etc you should retain a fantastic level of detail. It will have the drawback of having a very different look than footage from your video camera of course. If shot in RAW, I would batch convert the images to DNG and then use Adobe's Photoshop tools to see if I could exposure+color correct it to something that worked well with your video footage. Once you are happy with that, if your video editor doesn't understand DNG, then again use Adobe to batch export the DNG's to JPEG and import the JPEG's. This of course is harder than #1, but the quality level should be very, very high.

I am only a hobbyist videographer. I may have missed something.
But I have a long career as a Computer Engineer. I know hardware and software, bits and bytes, from low level to high, pretty darn well....Hey Bill :-) You raise some very important questions and I think You are off on a few assumptions, but your points are excellent. Allow me to explain a little further.

1. Interval Recording to an HDV File: What would the quality be and what steps could be taken to circumvent loss of overall quality ?

Answer: What if Camera and SSDR were fed signal via the HD-SDI output into the hardware recorder instead of clocked from FireWire Stream Input ? HD-SDI is ........

A) Uncompressed.

B) 10 Bit color space.

So a camera like a Sony HVR Z1U or a Canon XL H1 could bypass the first step of HDV encoding performed by the camera. This solves one problem.

2. HDV Long GOP compression of very different timelapse frames: Some testing would have to be done to see what level of overall image quality degredation occurs from this method of signal acquisition and compression.

* I think one essential point to ponder is what hardware encoding engine would one want to use to accomplish the HDV encoding ? There are many hardware encoding chips available for this task. Perhaps a decision would have to be taken to determine if delivery of the final file format should even be HDV per se ? There are a few 'open source' codecs, such as Xvid, amoung others, which could be employed, and the resulting video could be delivered as some form of AVI file. AVI can be imported into any NLE solution with good results. I like HDV as an HD format. I know many do not, and it has received a great deal of malignment over the past couple of years, but the Canon series of pro camcorders, along with those manufactured by SONY, produce HDV video of stunning quality. I know the movie 'The Signal" was shot using much HDV to in camera tape and it looks really quite good !

The ever increasing resolution game being played by those who want to sell HD products have really muddied our understanding of what is good and what is not. I would personally like to see improvements in cameras and hardware in camera encoders which are way more efficient at bringing you true thick raster HD (1440 x 1080) and thin raster HD (1920 x 1080). I would also like to see flat screen TV's which actually give you the *Full* HD raster - But I digress.

3. Recording straight to NLE: Via FireWire or HD-SDI ?

If one uses Avid Media Composer installed on a laptop, then one could capture a FW streamed HDV m2t file in native format without any form of re-compression and remove the redundant files in post. This would work well, but one might require a great deal of storage depending on the length of timelapse shot. Avid now has an external box for use with MC that alows direct capture via HD-SDI allowing uncompressed 10 bit video quality. Using a digital still camera would possibly produce the highest obtainable quality.

Interesting points to ponder.

Anyone...please, just looking for a short yes or no answer here. I disparately need a HD recorder for my JVCHD110, and want an alternative to the problem plagued Firestore devices.

Does anyone know if the Sony HVR recorder will work with the JVC HD100 recording 720/24p?

...Hey Bill :-)
1. Interval Recording to an HDV File: What would the quality be and what steps could be taken to circumvent loss of overall quality ?

Answer: What if Camera and SSDR were fed signal via the HD-SDI output into the hardware recorder instead of clocked from FireWire Stream Input ? HD-SDI is ........

A) Uncompressed.

B) 10 Bit color space.

So a camera like a Sony HVR Z1U or a Canon XL H1 could bypass the first step of HDV encoding performed by the camera. This solves one problem.


Just keep in mind that when you start talking either HD-SDI or HDMI, you are going to rapidly end up with a product that looks a heck of a lot like a ConvergentDesigns NanoFlash.

It also eliminates a fair number of pro cameras. Like Canon's own XH-A1. To go this route you would have to go with the XH-G1, which roughly doubles the price of the camcorder. Is that reasonable? I don't know...you tell me.

Of course I can hook up the Nanoflash to my little Sony HDR-HC9 consumer camcorder. But that's a $3500 encoder+recorder solution hanging off a $900 camcorder. Something seems a bit off about that...I'd prefer to spend the money on another camera, tripod+head, or laptop. The biggest thing I like about the Nanoflash is that I believe FireWire on camcorders is slowly going away. Great example: AVCHD, hard drive, and flash camcorders overwhelmingly do not have FireWire ports! So if you accept that FireWire is going away, it follows that a recorder hanging off an HDMI port, something which is rapidly becoming standard, will have a far longer useful lifespan.

I'm not going to waste my and your time talking about Avid solutions.
I'm a hobbyist and have no personal familiarity with Avid except to know budget wise they are way out of my league.

What I like about simply recording the video and doing the timelapse effect in the video editor is:

Right now, today, I can record up to 7 hours of either DV or HDV video using either Pinnacle Systems Studio 11 or Sony Vegas Movie Studio 9 on my 2004 vintage Pentium 4 3.0 GHz laptop with a 120GB 5400 rpm internal hard drive . And that is going directly to the laptop's hard drive. My point here isn't how low end I am. It is for how low a cost I can get the job done.

On top of that, a 500 GB USB hard drive can be purchased for under $100 USD.
That represents something like 40 hours of footage. So really long video shoots can be done for very low cost.


2. HDV Long GOP compression of very different timelapse frames: Some testing would have to be done to see what level of overall image quality degredation occurs from this method of signal acquisition and compression.


Correct...which also means sometimes you will be happy with the results, and sometimes you won't. It will vary with what you are shooting. I don't think any of us like that kind of uncertainty.


* I think one essential point to ponder is what hardware encoding engine would one want to use to accomplish the HDV encoding ? There are many hardware encoding chips available for this task. Perhaps a decision would have to be taken to determine if delivery of the final file format should even be HDV per se ? There are a few 'open source' codecs, such as Xvid, amoung others, which could be employed, and the resulting video could be delivered as some form of AVI file. AVI can be imported into any NLE solution with good results. I like HDV as an HD format. I know many do not, and it has received a great deal of malignment over the past couple of years, but the Canon series of pro camcorders, along with those manufactured by SONY, produce HDV video of stunning quality. I know the movie 'The Signal" was shot using much HDV to in camera tape and it looks really quite good !


I think you very much want to stick with standard, common encoding formats, or you will quickly find people moaning and groaning how your product doesn't work with their editor. Are you sure, for instance, that those AVI's will play with Final Cut Pro?

One theme I think people consistently underestimate when looking at the cost of products like Flash XDR and NanoFlash is what are the expected sales volume?

As a common example, if you look at motocycles vs cars, the motorcycles will cost a quarter up to what a mid-range car does. But compared to a car, there is so much less to a bike. What gives? Volume is what gives. Overwhelmingly, if a car manufacturer sells less than 100,000/year of a model, it gets eliminated. If a bike manufacturer sells 10,000/year of a model, they are dancing in the streets.

One unspoken theme of this exchange is what you think the cost of the product will be. But your market is a function of:
1. What camera do people have? Will your recorder plug-n-play with my camera? Is it FireWire, HD-SDI, HDMI? proprietary?
2. Once I've done my shoot, will the footage produced plug-n-play smoothly with their editor, whatever it may be?

As you grind through that list, I think you will discover why the nanoFlash looks like it does.
The development costs are high, the market is small. So it hooks to that HDMI port, which is almost everywhere. And it uses MPEG2 encoding, which nearly everyone understands. And with the bitrate cranked up, your ability to distinguish it from uncompressed disappears.

And storage is cheap and getting cheaper, so just do the timelapse in the video editor...
And if you do it that way, you can really fine tune the length and amount of speedup in that segment, something you can't so easily do when you've preselected the frame capture interval.