<<<-- Originally posted by David Newman :

You are correct, 800MHz is the effective speed of dual 400MHz DDR. -->>>

OK, that's now clear. Pairs of RAM chips.

<<<-- SATA is only slightly better if you are running a RAID control off the Intel 875 chip set (this is the best today.) I don't have that in my PC, so I have two ATA100 7200rpm drives on a motherboard RAID 0 that does me fine. -->>>

Looks like Dell offers only 2 choices:

1. one 200GB 7200rpm ATA100 drive

2. one 80GB 7200rpm drive (not clear if this is the Boot drive, which it should be + audio) PLUS a RAID of two 100GB ATA100 7200rpm drives. (I asume it's a MB RAID controller.)

Now let's assume a 2.6GHz or 2.8GHz HT P4 and 512MB RAM.

Simple question, how many streams with disk config #1 verses #2.

Steve, someone changed my last post completely, I had to delete it. All I the info I posted in response to Jay had be removed.

<<<--DN: SATA is only slightly better if you are running a RAID control off the Intel 875 chip set (this is the best today.) I don't have that in my PC, so I have two ATA100 7200rpm drives on a motherboard RAID 0 that does me fine. -->>>

SM: Looks like Dell offers only 2 choices:
SM: 1. one 200GB 7200rpm ATA100 drive
SM: 2. one 80GB 7200rpm drive (not clear if this is the Boot drive, which it should be + audio) PLUS a RAID of two 100GB ATA100 7200rpm drives. (I asume it's a MB RAID controller.)
SM: Now let's assume a 2.6GHz or 2.8GHz HT P4 and 512MB RAM.
SM: Simple question, how many streams with disk config #1 verses #2.

Configuration #1 will give two video streams (disk I/O bound) but will able to apply many filters, and multiple titles tracks.

Config. #2 will do up to four streams for video.

<<<-- Originally posted by David Newman : Steve, someone changed my last post completely, I had to delete it. All I the info I posted in response to Jay had be removed. -->>>

Yea, that was strange, there were quotes from a post that didn't even exist and was confusing.

Hopefully this thread can be a reference for others who are building a box for use with Aspect HD. David, if you get a chance, can you re-answer those previous questions?

Thanks,

Jay

Trying again :)

<<<-- Originally posted by Jay Nemeth : So, if I'm building a box from the ground up, should I use PC3600 ram since it's a little faster? Or is there a limitation because the FSB is 800mhz on the processor? -->>>

You need to combine Dual channel 400Mhz DDR PC3600, with a P4 with an 800Mhz FSB. The resulting memory speed is 2.4 times faster than a standard PC2700 system.

<<<--I already have a 200 gig 7200 rpm drive, if that is enough space for me, could I go get another 200 gig and do a RAID 1 to mirror and backup? Or is the RAID 0 a neccessity? How about RAID 0+1?-->>>

RAID 0 is the only low cost way to double your disk performance. A single drive will give you dual stream, a RAID-0 setup should give you 4 streams.

<<<--Also, does Aspect HD support batch capture like Premeire would if it was doing the capturing? And lastly, does the digitizing retain the original timecode from the camera? -->>>

No, not in the current Aspect HD release.

And my last post is gone too. Did I mess something up?

I assumed HDV was NON Drop Frame.

But Aspect HD uses Drop Frame.

Which is it?

Till now I use huffyuv avis to do HD editing. I need these files to do some processing in VirtualDub, mainly to correct for camera vibrations.
Will Aspect avi files work with VirtualDub? It means - are these files usable out of the P6.5?

<<<-- Originally posted by David
Configuration #1 will give two video streams (disk I/O bound) but will able to apply many filters, and multiple titles tracks.
-->>>

Thank you.

Looks like 2.4GHz, 800FSB, dual channel 400MHz RAM, and single ATA100 drive works fine for 2 streams.

But will this handle the on-the-file CAPTURE & CONVERT?

And, how much disk space is needed to hold 1 hour of capture--using the C & C option? Using MAX quality setting. Using NORMAL quality setting?

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : And my last post is gone too. Did I mess something up?-->>>

I think you accidently edited my message, deleting most of it content.

<<<--I assumed HDV was NON Drop Frame.
But Aspect HD uses Drop Frame.
Which is it? -->>>

Drop frame vs Non Drop Frame is not the issue (an easy convert if is was.) It was more technical, I don't have the info on hand.

<<<-- Originally posted by Andre Jesmanowicz : Till now I use huffyuv avis to do HD editing. I need these files to do some processing in VirtualDub, mainly to correct for camera vibrations.
Will Aspect avi files work with VirtualDub? It means - are these files usable out of the P6.5? -->>>

Aspect HD's AVI do load fine within VirtualDub (and any PC program that supports VFW or DirectShow.) VirtualDub can't export into CFHD (the CineForm codec) however you can still use HUFFYUV on ouput, importing those AVIs into Aspect HD for converison back for real-time processing.

You can do what you want to do.

<<<--Looks like 2.4GHz, 800FSB, dual channel 400MHz RAM, and single ATA100 drive works fine for 2 streams.

But will this handle the on-the-file CAPTURE & CONVERT?

And, how much disk space is needed to hold 1 hour of capture--using the C & C option? Using MAX quality setting. Using NORMAL quality setting? -->>>

A 2.4Ghz will do on-the-fly conversions at around 1.3:1, however this number will vary based on image content (it will be a little faster or slower as image detail changes.)

If you keep your M2T files (little point) your disk space is about 40GB per hour. If you automatic remove the converted M2T files your disk space is about 30GB per hour.

MAX quality averages a 25% higher data rate over the normal setting. Note: you will not be able to see the difference between these two. The numbers above are for the normal setting, which is all we ever use at trade shows and one-on-one demos because it is so good. We only added the MAX quality (large file size) for user insist on overkill, or those used to working with uncompressed data.

<<<-- Originally posted by David Newman <<<--

Drop frame vs Non Drop Frame is not the issue (an easy convert if is was.) It was more technical, I don't have the info on hand. -->>>

Whoops. Completely new question!

When I check MPEG-2 clip in FCP, it is DF (colons) and definitely does not behave at the 1 minute points like NDF.

So I'm wondering why the Aspect HD settings were specified to be NDF?


Very sorry. I may have hit Edit rather than Quote. Easy to do at 4AM.

<<<-- Originally posted by David Newman: A 2.4Ghz will do on-the-fly conversions at around 1.3:1, however this number will vary based on image content (it will be a little faster or slower as image detail changes.)

If you keep your M2T files (little point) your disk space is about 40GB per hour. If you automatic remove the converted M2T files your disk space is about 30GB per hour.

-->>>

So a 200GB disk is acceptable for me. That's 6 hours!

You are saying is that conversion on the fly will take about 1 hour 20 minutes to capture an hour. Fine!

How fast a CPU to get 1:1?

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen :
<<<--So I'm wondering why the Aspect HD settings were specified to be NDF?-->>>

Steve, if you look into the project setting for Aspect HD, you will that we defaulted to 30p Drop Frame (not NDF). You can change that if you like. How timecodes are reported and how they are stored on tape are different issues.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen :
You are saying is that conversion on the fly will take about 1 hour 20 minutes to capture an hour. Fine!

How fast a CPU to get 1:1? -->>>

With a little speculation, a slightly overclocked 3.2Ghz P4 would do this operation around 1:1. We will try that in the next few days.

<<<-- Whoops.

Been up working since Sunday.

Should have said:

When I check MPEG-2 clip in FCP, it is NDF (semi-colon) and definitely does not behave at the 1 minute points like DF.

So I'm wondering why the Aspect HD settings were specified to be DF?

I reversed everything in my question.

"How timecodes are reported and how they are stored on tape are different issues."

Many folks will do a dub from a camcorder -- with TC counter visible on the anlog copy -- to DV or VHS to log footage. Thus, they need TC to match. It may have no technical impact, but it has a workflow impact.

You can change it if you wish, Aspect HD works fine in either DF or NDF.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jonathan Sarno :
<<<--What laptop configuration/model would you purchase?-->>>

<<<--I'm still waiting for the faster systems. They only days away (I just need comfirmation before a can say who will be selling them.) We are arranging to test these new systems.-->>>

Jonathan & others,

We have finish our testing of a 3.2GHz Dual DDR 800MHz FSB laptop with hardware RAID 0 (and 3 drive inside the laptop.) These are the awesome laptops we were waiting for. This unit is able to process up to 3 HD video streams with many filters. The CPU and RAM speed would have allowed for 4 streams, yet 2.5" drives can't yet match to performance of desktop drive hards (3 stream ain't bad.) This excellent laytop, perfect for mobile HD editing with CineForm's Aspect HD, is available from www.1beyond.com. The model we tested is the new DVPro 3216-X.

Hi David!
Is it -possible- to run Aspect Hd on this machine? And if so how well can I work, what are the disadvantiges and so on:

Intel Pentium 4 1.4 Ghz
785 RAMBUS RAM
180 GB HDD 7500RPM
Matrox G450 DualHead
1 IBM LCD TFT "15
1 DELL "19
firewire card
Soundblaster 128
Windows 2000 SP4 or Windows XP SP1
Direct X 9.0b
Premiere 6.5 or Premiere Pro

Does it even run on this kind of "slow" computers? Or do I have to buy a brand new just for HD editing?? Please help!
/john

<<<-- Originally posted by John Eriksson : Hi David!
Is it -possible- to run Aspect Hd on this machine? And if so how well can I work, what are the disadvantiges and so on:
/john -->>>

The any Window's XP system will "run" Aspect HD, however if you check the cineform.com web site you will see that your system is below the minimum system requirements -- this mean you will not get real-time editing. HD is fairly demanding, real-time more so.

I upgraded the internals of my old PC -- motherboard, RAM and CPU -- keeping my old I/O, video card, audio, networking etc, for around $500 (and that was 5 months ago.) I went from 800Mhz to 2.8Mhz (o.c.) so I can now do three HD streams in real-time. System upgrades can be done on the cheap.

first thanks for your fast reply!

2 more..
1. will my computer manage to edit HD odinary without "realtime"?
2. and will my matrox g450 show the HD images in the second monitor via the dvdmax feature? (cause this works with dv today...) but will it work the same with HD? ?

+can you run aspect hd under windows 2000 pro sp4?
and if not -why?

<<<-- Originally posted by John Eriksson : first thanks for your fast reply!
2 more..
1. will my computer manage to edit HD odinary without "realtime"?-->>>

Aspect HD is not designed to work less than real-time, but it does work. I have used a 1.7GHz PC with much slower RAM than your system, that worked OK. But "OK" means no real-time transitions, color correction, titles, etc (you have to render everything.) We DO NOT recommend this. Mid 2.xGHz gives you real-time. You should at least exchange the CPU with a pin compatible 2.0GHz part for real-time titles and color correction (this way you don't need a new motherboard or new RAM.)

<<<--2. and will my matrox g450 show the HD images in the second monitor via the dvdmax feature? (cause this works with dv today...) but will it work the same with HD? ?-->>>

It looks like it will, but we have never tested a G450.

<<<--+can you run aspect hd under windows 2000 pro sp4? and if not -why? -->>>

No. XP only. Aspect HD uses a DirectShow video component that in only on XP.

David,

I have a question that is probably elementary and addresses the basics of Premiere itself. The question is, does Premiere 6.5 and or Premiere Pro with Aspect HD, support mixing 16X9 formats on the same timeline? That is to ask, is it possible to mix 16X9 DV material with 16X9 HD material encoded by AspectHD with or without transitions?

Thanks,

<<<-- Originally posted by Raymond Krystof : David,
.. is it possible to mix 16X9 DV material with 16X9 HD material encoded by AspectHD with or without transitions?-->>>

Yes, this can be done, but does require rendering to up-convert the DV 16x9 to HD. Premiere 6.5 handles this reasonably well as the default behavior. There is an issue that can make DV imports tricky that has nothing to do with Aspect HD or Premiere, you DV footage needs to be progressively scanned for a clean mix into a progressive scan HD production. If you shoot DV in "frame mode" you will have no issue -- it works fine. If you shoot 60i, you will need to de-interlace the footage (in Premiere DV mode) before importing it into Aspect HD.

Note: Aspect HD Premiere Pro is not complete, but the DV to HD conversion maybe handled differently.

Thanks David,

It keeps sounding better and better.

Do you have an approximate date that you think Aspect for Premiere Pro will be available? Do you have a date that the current price for AspectHD for Premiere 6.5 with free upgrade to Pro will end?

Buy the 6.5 version. :) The Premiere Pro version is still a couple of months away, and the price will go up. Aspect HD for Premiere 6.5 is $1200, and it includes the free Premiere Pro upgrade of Aspect HD while we aren't taking pre-orders on Pro. So if you have HD project now, you will have paid for this product many times over before Aspect HD for P.Pro ships.

great!

Can somone answer this 3 questions?

1.Is the JY-HD10E fully supported with Aspect HD?
2.Does the JY-HD10E record PAL on any mode HD/SD/DV?
3.Does it output a PAL signal from the S-VHS and the compoite port? Or is that also NTSC, and what is the diffirance with JY-HD10E and JY HD10U?

Thanks!

The JY-HD10U and the JY-HD10E are the same camera. It has no PAL mode (and therefore fully compatible with Aspect HD.)

This site lists its specs.
http://www.provis.com.au/products/video/jy_hd10e.htm

not even PAL signal from the S-VHS and the composite port?

thanks!

JVC GR-PD1 for thePAL world

Digital Full Progressive Video Camera

• 1/3-inch 1.18 Megapixel Progressive Scan CCD with Hybrid Complementary-Primary Digital Filter

• Hi-Def F1.8-F1.9 Optically Stabilised Zoom Lens

• MPEG-2 Recording on MiniDV Cassette

• Multi-Format Recording and Playback:

* DV PAL Interlace: 4:3 625/50i

* MPEG-2 PAL Progressive: 16:9 625/50p

* MPEG-2 PAL Progressive: 16:9 625/25p

* MPEG-2 PAL Progressive: 4:3 625/50p

yes, I have heard of this, but there is no HD on that one.. thanks anyways..

<<<-- Originally posted by John Eriksson : not even PAL signal from the S-VHS and the composite port? -->>>

Not even. :(

David,

If I created a 5.1 soundtrack, is there a way to export that as Dolby Digital with the Mpeg2 stream so I would have a DVHS with DD5.1 sound?

Thanks,

Jay

<<<-- Originally posted by Jay Nemeth : David,

If I created a 5.1 soundtrack, is there a way to export that as Dolby Digital with the Mpeg2 stream so I would have a DVHS with DD5.1 sound?-->>>

Good question. I know Premiere Pro adds 5.1 support and it comes with a Dolby Digital trial encoder (you can use it three time before you have to buy a license.) I haven't determined yet how that can be added to transport streams. I'll put that on my list of things to learn.

First I converted the HD to DV and then when I was going to export it to tape via firewire.. BUT it become anamorphic (vertical strech) And I dont want that!!

I want "the black borders" How can I get that without going in to Afer Effects, And does Aspect HD support that directly?

John,

Firstly anamorphic export to DV from 16:9 HD is normally the desired operation. The black border letterboxing is a feature of analog exporting from your DV deck to a 4:3 display. Basically the black borders are not rendered into you output as downstream DV devices can normally handle 16:9 to 4:3 conversions. When you are exporting to VHS, or formats that generally are not anamorphic, you could dumb from your DV deck (in the 16:9 to 4:3 mode), or play the analog signal straight off the timeline using a Maxtox P750 or Parhelia card. This is the way recommended for Aspect HD also.

Yes, but how do I make a direct "black borders" -copy out on to DV tape without using After Effects or any special trix in premiere,

I just want it to give the correct black borders on scrub directly?
Is this somehow possible? (with or wihout aspect HD)?? I don´t like the anamorpic idea, cause I have a 4:3 telly! What settings or changes will I have to do in premiere or on the camcorder to get this to work?
/John

It might be a setting on your DV camera (not all have this.) However you can do it under Premiere:

1) Right click on a clip on your timeline.
2) Select "Video Option" -> "Maintain Aspect Ratio"
3) Repeat 1-2 for all clips.
4) Then export the timeline as DV.


If you have a lot of clips, export the whole time line in some interim format (CFHD -- for Aspect HD, or HUFFYUV or uncompressed if not Aspect HD.) Re-import the new one clip, set the fixed aspect ratio, then export to DV.

thanks!

Back on the original thread.

Charlie White for Digital Media Net resently completed an online review of Aspect HD.

http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/cgi-bin/getframeletter.cgi?/2003/10_oct/reviews/cw_aspecthd_review.htm

It is a nice review of Aspect HD although he is a little hard on the camera itself (maybe unfairly.) Tell me what you think.

David,

I agree with you on both counts.

I’m already sold on Aspect HD. I’m only waiting for my “need” to catch up with my finances before I place an order.

As for Charlie White’s references to the HD1/HD10. I view those comments as the proverbial ……”Is the glass half empty or half full”. Any comments that compare a $2400 consumer camera to a $75,000 + professional camera are …… (IMO) Duh! The fact is that I find it something of a compliment to even begin to compare such cameras. I think it was Paul Mogg who did a somewhat controlled comparison between such camera’s for the purpose of seeing just where the HD1/HD10 did fall into the mix. This I felt had merit and was objective. I think Pauls opinion as is mine is that the HD1/HD10 constitute a lot of bang for the buck.

Cheers!

In the review he states "For example, in some of the test shots I saw, the camera pans across some trees, and the shaky/shimmering moiré effect made the shots almost painful to watch. So if you're looking to show off with a camcorder like this, stay away from high contrast scenes and lots of moving detail"

Is this fair assesment? Could someone experienced with this camera explain what they would do to avoid this problem?
Ken

ANy camera - I mean ANY CAMERA is capable of what Charlie described and others a chuddering.

It occurs when you use too slow a shutter speed for the scene you are shooting.

Most people recommend locking the shutter speed on this camera when shooting an action scene.

We will be dealing with this in the JumpStart Guide to HDV aquisition and production. How to avoid it, when to use a slow shutter speed, etc.

I also did a controlled comparison of a Cinealta vs HD1 vs HD10U and you can read a complete review of it by looking through the threads. Safe to say, the bottom line was that the Cinealta is a better camer, but for the bucks, the HD1/HD10U does a great job.

Cheers

Darren,

Sorry! It may have been your review I was thinking of. I did indeed think it was very objective. The bottom line is the "bang for the buck". I have seen more professional use of the HD10 as a suppliment to the high end Cinealta etc. But it certinally shouldn't be thought of as replacement.

When you can't afford a CineAlta it is a replacement ;>)
Ken

It sounds like he didn't shoot the HD video so who knows how it was shot. Frankly, I think if he didn't shoot it -- and if he didn't know HOW to shoot it -- he should not have commented on the HD10's quality. That's just bad reviewing.



Sounds like the laptop didn't have letterboxed NTSC output. It's not HD, but it helps.

David might want to comment how much resolution is available "inside" Premiere. The displayed Premiere window is typically about 384x216. Is Wavelet decompressed to this size? Is it decompressed to 1280x720 and then scaled to the RGB window?

What rez is the "overlay" that feeds the Matrox board?

The point is that if Wavelet is decompressed to 1280x720 and is available within Premiere, some PCI card might be able to grab the image and output as YPbPr in HD.

Charlie didn't shoot it I know for a fact. JVC did not have a loaner available, so he got a tape that someone else shot and provided on a DVHS machine.

I guess he thought that was OK to comment.

Steve,

Aspect HD certainly has clever solutions to get to its performance level. Some of which does reduce the data rate load on the system (although not as low as your window size would suggest -- plus I run my display much bigger than that.) For competitive reasons we don't discuss the details on how CineForm achieves what it does.

Full resolution HD over PCI is impractical (the standard PCI bus in PCs is too slow.) However the AGP bus is plently fast enough for 720p30 (it is a little loaded with 1080i30 or 720p60.) However, I haven't seen an AGP video card that has YPrPb outputs and supporting overlay trick Maxtrox supports (but I haven't looked much.) The Maxtrox output via DVI does produce a nice HD picture -- so if your HD monitor uses DVI that should work fine.

<<<-- I haven't seen an AGP video card that has YPrPb outputs and supporting overlay trick Maxtrox supports (but I haven't looked much.) The Maxtrox output via DVI does produce a nice HD picture -- so if your HD monitor uses DVI that should work fine. -->>>

I think you meant to say "nice SD" picture.

The PCI HD cards for the Mac output analog and HD-SDI from an uncompressed HD 1080i60/720p60 FCP Timeline. So it's possible. Of course, they may need fast PCI which may or may not be be present on PCs.

How big can a Premiere window be?