I am still trying to figure out which of these cams will mix best with 30p from the EX1. The upside to the Canon seems to be better manual controls, 24mbps speed and 30p. Downside is I need to have a custom housing made with manual controls for water shooting.

On the Sony side I already have a dive housing with controls for Sony and I can get a splash pak for surface shooting.

Ultimately I am looking for the best footage to mix with my EX1. Need to purchase soon. Any one shot with the HG21 or can speculate which camera is a better choice I appreciate info

Thanks

I choose CANON HG21... It has more controls and unbeat 24f and 30f in my opinion its the best feature and the sony aparently hasnt...

The camera is beautiful, small.. The battery isnt so good. I think the sony could be better... But i bought and extra long last battery pack...

The image quality is excelent, and the built-in microfone is very good...

I would compare the color rendition side by side before deciding - if post CC is a big pain, it could negate any upsides. I haven't shot with the HG21, but I know that I found the HV20 (2-3 generations old of course) did not play well with the Sony cams I had... then again I'm still not an expert at CC...

My first instinct since you've got the housings for the Sony, that's the way to go. I render to 24p in post with the SR, and it looks fantastic. If your NLE can output the different formats, I don't see the big advantage to having it "in camera".

Other advantages to the SR would be bigger LCD and a VF...

I would compare the color rendition side by side before deciding

Excellent point. My friend has an EX1 and I the SR11, and they are alike in color -- which makes sense given the chips come from the same company.

However, the HG21 seems like it may be the best AVCHD camcorder to date. With 24Mbps you finally "should" get a better pix than you can from HDV. In theory it should be near XDCAM.

About CC -- I've found I need to CC everything from the SR11. Until the SR11 I'd never used a consumer camcorder and I was shocked how inaccurate its color is. Very pretty pix, but not very accurate. And, no camera adjustments. The Canon does offer limited adjustments.

But, you'll likely wind-up CCing the cheaper camera no matter which you buy.

I would compare the color rendition side by side before deciding - if post CC is a big pain, it could negate any upsides. I haven't shot with the HG21, but I know that I found the HV20 (2-3 generations old of course) did not play well with the Sony cams I had... then again I'm still not an expert at CC...

My first instinct since you've got the housings for the Sony, that's the way to go. I render to 24p in post with the SR, and it looks fantastic. If your NLE can output the different formats, I don't see the big advantage to having it "in camera".

Other advantages to the SR would be bigger LCD and a VF...
Dave i have never got around to rendering and making 24p[25p here] with my cam and i dont think my software will do so,love to see a short bit as standard followed by some 24p converted.

Still looking for people who have recently purchased the new HG21. Trying to figure out if there is any significant difference in the quality between this and th SR11/12

Still looking for people who have recently purchased the new HG21. Trying to figure out if there is any significant difference in the quality between this and th SR11/12

I think we are waiting for you to tell us. :)

Seriously, Costco.com has the SR11 and HG20. You can buy both and try both for 90 days. My hope is that by Xmas they'll have the HG21 in stock because with a VF it really is a different model.

My guess is that both deliver equal QUALITY, but as I remember you want the best MATCH to your EX. From my experience writing my book on the Sony, you'll need to CC the footage from it because the EX is VERY accurate and the SR is not. (The SR is biased toward red.) I suspect the same is true of the Canon as it's the nature of consumer camcorders.

I think we are waiting for you to tell us. :)

My guess is that both deliver equal QUALITY, but as I remember you want the best MATCH to your EX. From my experience writing my book on the Sony, you'll need to CC the footage from it because the EX is VERY accurate and the SR is not. (The SR is biased toward red.) I suspect the same is true of the Canon as it's the nature of consumer camcorders.


Just curious, where did you find that the SR is biased towards red?

If anything my SR/12 is biased a bit towards green not red[perhaps no two cams are the same]even from the same model.

Just curious, where did you find that the SR is biased towards red?

For example, shoot "white" in AWB (for example, on a sunny day) and use a vectorscope to see the signal. The signal should be centered in the scope. Usually it will be off-cente toward red.

Repeat for AWB and MWB in other situations. For each you see which way the error goes.

The SR generally has red push. Which means you typically need to remove the push.

But, there is also a phase error (hue) which you need to correct for skin tone.

You may also want to slightly lower color saturation.

Thankfully corrections are EZ to do with most CC filters.

I cover all these situations in my book.

Okay Steve

I am going to Costco today. I have been looking around locally to find one for some hands on testing.

I was checking out the SR11 hooked up to a big plasma at a local chain store, It seemed fairly noisy with retail store indoor lighting. 95% of my shooting with this cam will be outdoor but I was surprised by the amount of noise I witnessed. Went through the menu and tried to see if I could clean it up a bit. Still could not get a picture I was happy with.

Coming from a PD 150 and EX1 background maybe I am spoiled. I expect that outside/better lighting these AVCHD cams will have a cleaner signal.

Charles, you have to be careful "testing" on "store" displays... You have no idea if the min wage slave had the tiniest idea of proper hookup/setup/optimization... probably not, or he wouldn't be wearing that blue or red "uniform"... improper setup can make anything look like doo-doo.

I shoot the SR11, and I've yet to hit a situation that I would describe it as "noisy". Other than trying to shoot in rediculously low light (where you need to compensate your exposure or choose a preset, or live with "SD" quality), it's pretty good - adding a small on cam light will pull excellent video quality in most indoor low light situations (20 watt or so minimum though). Outdoors it's a peach.

Yeah, it's not an EX, but then again at the price... and try stuffing an EX in your coat pocket.

Okay Steve

I am going to Costco today. I have been looking around locally to find one for some hands on testing.

I was checking out the SR11 hooked up to a big plasma at a local chain store, It seemed fairly noisy with retail store indoor lighting. 95% of my shooting with this cam will be outdoor but I was surprised by the amount of noise I witnessed. Went through the menu and tried to see if I could clean it up a bit. Still could not get a picture I was happy with.

Coming from a PD 150 and EX1 background maybe I am spoiled. I expect that outside/better lighting these AVCHD cams will have a cleaner signal.

I was suggesting buying both at Costco -- not trying to test them in the store for the reasons Dave listed.

How did the HG20 look?

My Costco did not have the HG20/21 nor did BB. I miss the days of the PD 150/TRV 900 combo. That was a nice mix for the action sports producer. The EX is just to heavy to shoot while swimming in the surf. I will still be on the look out for some hand on testing of the HG21

The HG-21 is Great! Great image quality (in outside is awesome!!) i think is a good choice...

My Costco did not have the HG20/21 nor did BB.

I found the same -- none of them in stock. They also don't have the Sony HDR-HC9 which I'm interested in. Why?

Unlike the SR, it has shutter-speed control. It has a real LANC jack. HDV means EZ editing on any computer. Like HDCAM, its CMOS ClearVid chip is 1920x1080 although it records 1440x1080. Looking at its manual it seems the "tricks" I developed for the SR will still work. (And at 1/30, it may record 1080p30.)

But, with CES a few months away -- I'm not sure it makes sense to buy now. If the HDR-HC9 got one more revision with EXMOR chips it would be great. Likewise, an HV40 from Canon.

I would be surprised if Sony does any more "upgrades" in the consumer space that are tape based (then again, I am surprised they failed to answer the HMC150 in the prosumer range...). Canon, who is probably selling HV30's a lot better than Sony is the HC9, which is almost invisible in the retail/resale channel, MIGHT update the HV30, but since the update from HV20 to HV30 was pretty minimal...

I think there was an announcement of an improved low light CMOS design about a year ago now, so maybe the sensor blocks will be improved, but "tape is dead, long live tape" is probably the line now... at least for the consumer end of things.

I think it's notable that NEITHER major brand has kept the sensor blocks updated when compared to the AVCHD/tapeless cameras - that's where their R&D is going.

The LANC interface is there on the SR11/12, and works with any Sony sport pack housing (which have used the LANC interface in the "D" shaped A/V jack for a while now), which for the OP is a consideration. Editing ANY HD is going to require a fairly fast machine, and AVCHD isn't THAT much more difficult, once you get the hang of it (about the same learning curve as HDV was... and the software is getting better over time).

Certainly it WOULD be nice for Sony to bring back an interface allowing the advanced user to better control the camera - it's nothing but software, as the "auto" features of the camera control the shutter speed and aperature functions, they just don't let the end user at them... would it be so hard to have "EASY", normal, and ADVANCED user interfaces?? Or at least make the "normal" interface a few IQ points more complex??

The LANC interface is there on the SR11/12, and works with any Sony sport pack housing (which have used the LANC interface in the "D" shaped A/V jack for a while now), which for the OP is a consideration.

Or at least make the "normal" interface a few IQ points more complex??

There is a LANC port, but without an expensive converter box one can't plug-in most LANC devices.

AVCHD requires 6X-8X more computing power than does HDV. Way beyond any typical PC or Mac. People confuse playing AVCHD with editing AVCHD. Editing means CC, filters, and multiple streams for transitions, compositing, and keying. None of the major NLEs support native AVCHD editing -- while they all support native HDV.

Sony has announced profits will drop 57%. Yet they continue to ALLOW Canon to own the consumer market. It would only take a bit of firmware to add the IQ we want.

Same thing with Bravia HDTVs. They fail critical tests. Samsung HDTVs pass these tests. Again only firmware difference since they have the same "glass." Sony seems to "hold back" functions to push folks toward the high-end. But, it seems not to be working for them.

PS: The HV30 is sooo ugly.

Same thing with Bravia HDTVs. They fail critical tests. Samsung HDTVs pass these tests. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought those two brands used the same panels...?

Again only firmware difference since they have the same "glass." Sony seems to "hold back" functions to push folks toward the high-end. But, it seems not to be working for them.



The glass is only as good as the signal going to them, is my guess.

But hey, what do I know?


CS

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought those two brands used the same panels...?

They use the same glass (panels) and folks thought Sony would have the best electronics. But Samsung seems to have come-up rapidly with top notch electronics. (For the last few years, Samsung has filed far far more patents than Sony.)

Two decades ago when I was working in Asia, including Korea, the Koreans were DETERMINED to beat the Japanese. It seemed hard to imagine this at the end of the `80s, but they are now reaching their goal. An amazing country-wide effort.

Plus they shoot wonderful historical dramas on 1080i60 video. :)

PS: When I sold a supercomputer to Sony R&D in the late `80s, Sony was going to use it to process millions of SD and HD pixel maps -- of the same image -- to learn *how* SD pixel patterns relate to HD pixel patterns. Sony came out with Digital Reality V1. They claimed it converted SD to HD, not by scaling, but by "picking" the correct HD pixels to output based upon SD pixels input. Their system used a huge look-up memory rather than a very high-speed processor. Very clever for the time.