I am a video hobbiest who occasionally does jobs for hire. I currently have a GL2 but I am considering an XH A1. I have a job at the end of this month that requires HD. I am trying to decide between renting or purchasing an XH A1, and would appreciate your insights.

My main concern about RENTING is I would only have one or two days to get familiar with the cam. The shoot I'm doing isn't a difficult one, but it is important to get it right (no chance for retakes). Do you think one day is enough time for someone with good GL2 skills to ramp up on the A1?

My biggest concern regarding PURCHASING the A1 is that several of my videographer friends have decided to hold off purchasing an HDV camera because they perceive the market is in transition to AVCHD. It looks to me like there is presently only one 3-chip AVCHD camera on the market and it certainly doesn't have anywhere near the features of the A1. Do you think we will have an AVCHD equivalent to the XH A1 in the next 12-18 months?

Hi Jerry,


My main concern about RENTING is I would only have one or two days to get familiar with the cam. The shoot I'm doing isn't a difficult one, but it is important to get it right (no chance for retakes). Do you think one day is enough time for someone with good GL2 skills to ramp up on the A1?

In my opinion no. I just shot my fifth wedding with the A1's and I'm just starting to feel proficient. That is after 7 years with Sony VX's and before that 10 years with various other pro and prosumer shoulder mounted cameras.

I guess Sony and Canon didn't get the message about the industry transitioning to AVCHD...since Canon came out with the XL H1A and H1S upgrades this year, and Sony has the Z7 and 270 with interchangeable lenses and now the upcoming Z5...all HDV.

The next serious change that is going to affect image quality and usebility of the small cameras will be, in my educated guess, a larger chip. In other words, a camera of the size of the XH A1 but with a 1/2" or 2/3" chip, or maybe even a full frame 35mm size chip like the new still cams that shoot video.

But if you want to wait for the Next Big Thing, you'll have a long wait. And the minute you buy into something, there will be another Next Big Thing on the horizon. That's a fruitless pursuit.

Also, just because the AVCHD codec is newer doesn't mean it's better. It may be a bit more efficient, but I don't see how it would affect your image quality appreciably.

As far as renting the camera for a big shoot...I would advise spending the money to have it at least 4 or 5 days in advance and do a lot of shooting so you get comfortable with it.

Have you tried editing AVCHD? It is a pain compared to HDV. As Bill says just because it's newer doesn't make it better.

I am also a hobbiest/serious amature that does some jobs for hire.

I've had the A-1 for some time now and couldn't imagine just having the camera for a couple of days before a shoot. I'm learning new things about the camera's capabilities every day.

From what I've read, AVCHD is a challenge to say the least in PP.

For what it's worth, buy the A-1. It's a great camera and I sure haven't regretted that move.

Rog Lee

I'd say purchase the XH-A1. In 12-18 months, you could make enough money to recoup costs and then still sell it if you don't feel it's "future proof" enough for you. I would also recommend you play with it ALOT before the shoot since for me coming from DVXs, a XL1, and a FX1, it took a while to get accustomed to the feel of the camera and operations. Took me about 10-15 hours of actually in my hand usage to get a good feel for the camera.

Your friend's decision to not jump into the HDV market is due to their needs for it. You NEED a HD camcorder to shoot a job at the end of the month. I honestly don't think 1 day is enough time. One thing that I hated at first on the A1 was the zoom rocker but after learning how to use the custom zoom speed function along with adjusting the speed manually on the fly, I love it:).

Good luck on your shoot!

I think that the cost of renting an A1 for 4 to 5 days (app. $1,000?) wuld go a long way towards actually buying one, so that's hat I would do.
To take a slightly contrarian bend, since an A1 shares many basic control mechanisms with the GL2, the A1 would likely have a somewhat familiar feel. You cannot learn the A1 in a day, but you could likely learn enough to do reasonably well

Lots of good advice for you here from the posters Gerry and I'd go along with it all. HDV on MiniDV still has a huge amount going for it, no doubt about that. Storage and archival for one. How will you store your AVCHD footage up on the shelf? Not on a HHD, and certainly not on DVD-R.

tom.

That's the big issue for shooting tapeless: How do you make an original to keep? I've heard that many who are shooting P2 have used DLT for that, and the irony of shooting tapeless and then putting your footage onto tape is inescapable. Some are using Sony's XDCAM recorders to make XDCAM HD discs. DVDs aren't big enough but BluRays are, so that is one solution--get a BluRay burner, capture all your footage into the computer, then drag the files to BluRay discs and burn them.

My problem with this is the time and hassle involved. If you don't have enough cards or hard drives or whatever on location, you have to bring along a computer and backup drives and do the data management on site, which would take another person. In fact, I've seen ads here wanting people with laptops, etc., to be the P2 guy on shoots. The same thing would happen with Sony's EX, but the cards are cheaper and you get more on one, so you might be able to afford enough to get you through a multi-day shoot and then deal with the data after you're back in the studio. If you have the time and gear and crew to go tapeless, then it's fine, and the beauty is it allows the manufacturer to sell a camera cheaper than one that has all the electromechanical stuff needed for shooting on tape.

For me, though, I don't like the idea of dealing with all that data and erasing my original. Sure, I do it with still photography, but with my still camera I have enough cheap CF cards to last me for as long as I want. And when I do move the files, it's quick and a single DVD, or even a single CD, holds more than I need. But, like many things in still photography, the same concept doesn't translate easily into video. What takes a few minutes for a few hundred still photos would take hours and hours for a big video shoot, maybe days. And when I'm on an out of town shoot working from 7 a.m. to 7.p.m., the last thing I want to do is go back to the hotel and spend 2 or 3 hours at the computer copying files.

I think eventually we'll see a tapeless world for people like me (ie., small crews, shooting lots of footage, documentary work, etc.) but only when the prices of the media come down so it's competitive with tape.

Steve, I am able to receive an A1 on a Thursday and return it the following Monday for $234 which includes FedEx shipping both ways. My event is on a Saturday. I am leaning toward purchasing since I should have some other opportunities over the next year (assuming we aren't in a deep depression).

I think that the cost of renting an A1 for 4 to 5 days (app. $1,000?) wuld go a long way towards actually buying one, so that's hat I would do.
To take a slightly contrarian bend, since an A1 shares many basic control mechanisms with the GL2, the A1 would likely have a somewhat familiar feel. You cannot learn the A1 in a day, but you could likely learn enough to do reasonably well

Bill, with my GL2 I keep the original tape but also archive to HDD any of the trimmed raw footage I actually used in the final project (s). To me, capturing from tape isn't that big of an issue. I do like the extra security of having copies of my footage on two different types of media.

If I were shooting tapeless I think I would still archive trimmed raw footage to HDD.

That's the big issue for shooting tapeless: How do you make an original to keep?

I am a video hobbiest who occasionally does jobs for hire. I currently have a GL2 but I am considering an XH A1. I have a job at the end of this month that requires HD. I am trying to decide between renting or purchasing an XH A1, and would appreciate your insights.

My main concern about RENTING is I would only have one or two days to get familiar with the cam. The shoot I'm doing isn't a difficult one, but it is important to get it right (no chance for retakes). Do you think one day is enough time for someone with good GL2 skills to ramp up on the A1?

My biggest concern regarding PURCHASING the A1 is that several of my videographer friends have decided to hold off purchasing an HDV camera because they perceive the market is in transition to AVCHD. It looks to me like there is presently only one 3-chip AVCHD camera on the market and it certainly doesn't have anywhere near the features of the A1. Do you think we will have an AVCHD equivalent to the XH A1 in the next 12-18 months?

Jerry:

I am a XH-A1 user and also a new HMC150 (AVCHD) user, so I thought I would post from a perspective of someone on both sides of the fence. On your main issue of learning a new camera, good luck. The A1 will be MUCH easier than any non Canon product for a GL2 user to figure out. I can tell you that switching to a Panasonic product like the HMC150 requires a huge learning curve (for a 45 YO brain). I have a wedding October 17 and I will still probably use the A1s because Im not comfortable at all with Panasonic controls.

I tend to agree with your friends that the market is going to AVCHD or another tapeless format. I am not sure, can HDV even be implemented on a tapeless camera?

There are currently two Panasonic Pro AVCHD cameras, so Im not sure which AVCHD camera you refer to. Both of these cameras have a feature set roughly equivalent to the A1.

Here is what I have found so far comparing the A1 to the HMC150 (the A1s nearest AVCHD competitor):

1. Generally speaking, the HMC150 footage looks very similar to the A1 on a 51" monitor. I also think the HMC150 scene modes should be able to replicate the A1 presets.

2. The HMC150 has additional sound control features compared to the A1 (like onboard & XLR recording), but I haven't tested the performance yet.

3. Tapeless is a huge advantage. Once you try it and see the ease of use getting to the NLE, you are sold.

4. The AVCHD codec really is a big improvement. It's not just marketing hype. There is much less noise and artifacts. The video is very smooth and has very little strobing no matter how you shoot. I have used and edited A1 & JVC HDV for over 4 years, this is a big plus.

5. The AVCHD codec is much more CPU intensive than HDV. A fast Quad core is mandatory. However, you don't have to sit through capturing footage, so total time spent may be less. Sony Vegas Pro 8.0c works great.

6. Oh yeah, the newest VLC (9.2) plays the AVCHD clips but is a little buggy.

7. The camera is a little lighter than an A1, and better balanced/easier for hand held shooting.

8. It's a professional good looking camera, just like the A1.

9. The supplied battery is very physically small (just bigger than a 9V) and will end up causing you to buy the larger ($165) battery immediately if for nothing more than perception of capacity.

10. The quality/stiffness/plastic feeling of a few control buttons is not as good as the A1.

11. I didn't really notice the wide end of the lens (28mm) being that much wider than the A1, and I didn't really notice the 13X being all that much shorter either.

12. The display seems a little darker than the A1 display even on the highest of the three levels available.

13. The Auto mode can be customized on the HMC150 for your own idea of auto.

Overall, the HMC150 seems like a great camera so far, just much different controls to get used to for an A1 user. It's really kind of like an A1 in AVCHD format. I think Canon is due for an A1 replacement and I bet the next one will be tapeless. It may be awhile though.

I don't agree with Bills assessment of going tapeless being a storage problem. Now that I may get rid of the A1s, I need to capture all the tapes to HD. So, you are always going to end up with the tapes captured. If you rent a camera, you are forced to do the same. It's not an issue.

Randy, I would like to get Canon's ZR2000 lanc remote zoom but experienced real sticker shock when I looked it up - about $370. I have the Canon ZR1000 8-step lanc zoom for my GL2 and I see from other posts that it can work with the A1, although you give up some A1-specific features found on the ZR2000. I think I am going to try using my ZR1000 for now and possibly purchase the ZR2000 in the future. But I would really like to be able to ramp the zoom speed up/down (i.e., easy in/easy out) and I am not sure if this is doable without the ZR2000. Your thoughts?

I honestly don't think 1 day is enough time. One thing that I hated at first on the A1 was the zoom rocker but after learning how to use the custom zoom speed function along with adjusting the speed manually on the fly, I love it:).

Good luck on your shoot!

Jeff, now you've gone and done it - confused the issue with facts ;-). I was not aware of the HMC150. A quick look at the specs piques my interest. I will do some more reading and am likely to have more questions. Thanks much for the very informative post.

Jerry:

I am a XH-A1 user and also a new HMC150 (AVCHD) user, so I thought I would post from a perspective of someone on both sides of the fence.

I, too, found the HMC150 interesting.

Three reasons I would stay with the A-1 for now.

(1) I would need to invest more $$$ in a new quad core PC for AVCHD processing.

(2) I do wildlife video as a hobby and, as I understand it, the HMC150 has half the range of the A-1 on the telephoto end.

(3) The biggest advantage in the HMC150, as near as I can tell from reading, is the ability to do NLE.

As a hobbiest/amature, right now I can't justify the additional $5K - $6K(camera and PC)just to go NLE when apparently the Canon A-1 produces as good, if not better a picture than the HMC150.

This is an interesting post though.

The HMC150 is also something that I am looking at. However, I am in the same situation as above. I don't have the cash to upgrade my Macbook Pro. If I am not mistaken that is not even close to being able to handle AVCHD.

Jeff, I've read several spec sheets on the HMC 150 - very interesting camera. There are two features on the A1 that really fit my style of shooting and I'm not yet sure from my reading whether the 150 supports these:

- Ability to do rack focus (i.e., A1's ability to set a focus point, and return to it via push of a button).
- Ability to smoothly ramp a zoom in/out of the end points.

Jerry:

I tend to agree with your friends that the market is going to AVCHD or another tapeless format. I am not sure, can HDV even be implemented on a tapeless camera?

Randy, I would like to get Canon's ZR2000 lanc remote zoom but experienced real sticker shock when I looked it up - about $370. I have the Canon ZR1000 8-step lanc zoom for my GL2 and I see from other posts that it can work with the A1, although you give up some A1-specific features found on the ZR2000. I think I am going to try using my ZR1000 for now and possibly purchase the ZR2000 in the future. But I would really like to be able to ramp the zoom speed up/down (i.e., easy in/easy out) and I am not sure if this is doable without the ZR2000. Your thoughts?

What I've done is use my middle and ring finger to operate the zoom rocker and use my pointer finger to "scroll" the custom speed up and down while zooming. This allows me to go from QUICK zoom to a very slow one in a controlled way which would still work if I was shooting one camera. I'm not sure if that was how it was intended to be used but it's awesome nonetheless.

If any A1 owner has not yet tried that technique (I discovered it the method by just fiddling around so it may already be common knowledge), I would suggest trying it. During receptions, I can follow the wedding party during the grand entrance and match pace with their walking very easily.

And I was pricing out LANC controllers earlier this month, damn they are pricy ;).

The HMC150 is also something that I am looking at. However, I am in the same situation as above. I don't have the cash to upgrade my Macbook Pro. If I am not mistaken that is not even close to being able to handle AVCHD.

I use a MacBook Pro to edit AVCHD with no problems (even running on battery). The only significant limitation I can see would be if you don't have much RAM installed, but upgrading is very cheap if you go to Crucial or Kingston, instead of using Apple's own (overpriced) memory.

2GB is OK; 3-4 is better.

Isn't the MBP limited to only 2 gigs?

Isn't the MBP limited to only 2 gigs?

I'm writing this on a MBP with 4 gigs!

...can HDV even be implemented on a tapeless camera?...
Yes, and no. HDV is 4:2:0 8-bit video, compressed using MPEG-2 at 25 Mbps (various resolutions and frame-rates), written to a mini-DV or DV size/shape tape. You can write the same data-stream to solid-state or hard disc as well (e.g. Sony MCR-1, Fire-Store, etc. already do this), but to carry the HDV logo, a camera must have a tape drive. I've seen a description of a prototype JVC camera, shown at IBC, that appears to record HDV-style MPEG-2 to solid state only, and carries JVC's own "ProHD" logo. The Sony EX1 and EX3 write MPEG-2 at either 25 or 35 Mbps (still 4:2:0 sampling??) to solid state with no tape option, and call the format something different (XDCAM??).

If your current PC is not up to editing native AVCHD (almost all PCs will struggle with more than a couple of layers, AFAIK), the alternative is to transcode to a less-compressed codec (Edius HQ, CineForm, etc.) and work on that, if your NLE will allow it. However, that consumes disc space and takes time, removing much of the advantage of dragging and dropping the footage directly into your NLE.

If your current PC is not up to editing native AVCHD (almost all PCs will struggle with more than a couple of layers, AFAIK), the alternative is to transcode to a less-compressed codec (Edius HQ, CineForm, etc.) and work on that, if your NLE will allow it. However, that consumes disc space and takes time, removing much of the advantage of dragging and dropping the footage directly into your NLE.

Rendering times

Tonight I put together a surfing video I shot today with the HMC150 in 1080/60i. It had 2 video and 2 audio tracks.

It took 1 hour and 5 min. to render 11 min/25sec of video to the 1080i/29.97 HDV template in Vegas 8.0c at the maximum quality.

The Nehlam platform is twice as fast. That will be my next move as soon as they are available.

Jeff, I also use Vegas 8.0c. What processor/OS/ram was your render on?

Rendering times

Tonight I put together a surfing video I shot today with the HMC150 in 1080/60i. It had 2 video and 2 audio tracks.

It took 1 hour and 5 min. to render 11 min/25sec of video to the 1080i/29.97 HDV template in Vegas 8.0c at the maximum quality.

The Nehlam platform is twice as fast. That will be my next move as soon as they are available.

Jeff, I also use Vegas 8.0c. What processor/OS/ram was your render on?

Processor: Q6600 @5% OC
OS: XP SP2
RAM: 2GB DDR2 @1133Mhz

I rendered the same 11 min/25 sec video using the 720X480 DV template at maximum quality (including slider @ 100%) and it took 14 min. This is a little slower than HDV which usually renders to DV in almost realtime.

What I didn't mention in the last post was that the AVCHD to HDV renders are quite a bit slower than HDV to HDV renders, which is what I do with my HDV cameras footage. I author most projects for both DV and HD delivery.

Bottom line, renders to DV are still fast using this equipment.

I'm the OP. After much deliberation I've ordered an HMC150. Tough decision because I have really enjoyed my trusty old GL2 and I know the A1 is a very fine camera with a great heritage. In the end, I think the low light performance and bang for the buck of the HMC150 really appealed to me. I may come to appreciate its "tapelessness" but that wasn't a key consideration at this point. Thanks to all for your help and insights.

I'm the OP. After much deliberation I've ordered an HMC150. Tough decision because I have really enjoyed my trusty old GL2 and I know the A1 is a very fine camera with a great heritage. In the end, I think the low light performance and bang for the buck of the HMC150 really appealed to me. I may come to appreciate its "tapelessness" but that wasn't a key consideration at this point. Thanks to all for your help and insights.

Jerry:

You made a great choice. You really wouldn't go wrong either way.

Until you have it, you just cant appreciate the tapeless ease of use. I didn't think it would be so great, but it is. I definately reach for the HMC150 instead of the A1, it's really just a tapeless A1 (of course with a totally different control set which can be baffling).

Jeff

Good luck, Jerry. Don't get rid of the old GL2, you'll need it for playing the old tapes. How will you archive your footage from the HMC-150?

I was considering posting a new topic on this but chose not to because it was only hearsay, but someone I know who attended the massive audio-visual trade fair in Amsterdam (forgot the name of it!) recently said that he was told by a Canon rep to brace himself for 'a big announcement' from Canon in November.

This was a response to his complaint that Canon seem to be getting left behind Sony et al in terms of digital acquisition.

So perhaps it'd be better to hold off for a couple of weeks or so. That said, I love the XH-A1.

Good luck, Jerry. Don't get rid of the old GL2, you'll need it for playing the old tapes. How will you archive your footage from the HMC-150?

There are a lot of ways to store footage. I have always stored footage on my local storage system when capturing from the A1. I learned to do this from hours and hours spent capturing tapes before retiring my old DV & HDV cameras. It's a nightmare PITA to do this years later.

I also backup using a HD dock like this:
Newegg.com - Thermaltake BlacX N0028USU External Hard Drive SATA Enclosure Docking Station 2.5" & 3.5" USB 2.0 - External Enclosures (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153066)

to then keep a backup copy(s) on loose hard drives in a safe place.

It's a lot faster, safer and cheaper than tapes.

Example:
16GB SDHC card = 90 min video at highest quality.
40 recording sessions = 3600 min or 60 hours = 640 GB
640 GB hard drive = 60 hours
Current cost = $85 for 640 GB = $1.42 per hour of storage X 2 (backup) = $2.84 hour for storage.

If you use a cheap $5.00 tape it's still cheaper and you still don't have a backup to the tape.

Plus, for a 16GB SDHC card, you can capture to the working drive and backup the footage in 5 to 10 mins instead of wasting 90 minutes (for a 16GB card) waiting for a tape to playback. It's really just an amazing workflow. It's given me the digital photography syndrome (of taking lots of test shots and shots you know you will discard) with video. You can take test shots and make tweaks and see the results as quickly as you put the card in the computer.

Yes, this is pretty much exactly what I do now with the GL2, and will probably do with the new HMC150. In fact, I do have all my old tapes, but I have NEVER gone back to a single tape after the initial capture. They are just there as a secondary backup.

What I do want to get better at with my new system is a way to index my offline clips so I can find them more easily via keywords. I use Vegas and will probably do this with its Media Manager. So far my use of Media Manager has been limited to cataloging hundreds of clips that might be used in a single project.

There are a lot of ways to store footage. I have always stored footage on my local storage system when capturing from the A1. I learned to do this from hours and hours spent capturing tapes before retiring my old DV & HDV cameras. It's a nightmare PITA to do this years later.

I also backup using a HD dock like this:
Newegg.com - Thermaltake BlacX N0028USU External Hard Drive SATA Enclosure Docking Station 2.5" & 3.5" USB 2.0 - External Enclosures (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153066)

to then keep a backup copy(s) on loose hard drives in a safe place.

It's a lot faster, safer and cheaper than tapes.

Example:
16GB SDHC card = 90 min video at highest quality.
40 recording sessions = 3600 min or 60 hours = 640 GB
640 GB hard drive = 60 hours
Current cost = $85 for 640 GB = $1.42 per hour of storage X 2 (backup) = $2.84 hour for storage.

If you use a cheap $5.00 tape it's still cheaper and you still don't have a backup to the tape.

Plus, for a 16GB SDHC card, you can capture to the working drive and backup the footage in 5 to 10 mins instead of wasting 90 minutes (for a 16GB card) waiting for a tape to playback. It's really just an amazing workflow. It's given me the digital photography syndrome (of taking lots of test shots and shots you know you will discard) with video. You can take test shots and make tweaks and see the results as quickly as you put the card in the computer.