With the EOS 5D2's video functionality, isn't it pretty obvious that the replacements for XHA1 and H1 will have a large sensor and that it will probably allow you to utilize EF lenses?

Perhaps I should hold off my A1 purchase until the replacement is announced.. Looks like it'll be rental houses for me.

That will be nice but Canon take a long time to change their technology, I would say waiting for a new Canon cam is going to be at least 3 years. In the meanwhile you could look at getting a Scarlet which has a 3k sensor and will only cost around $3,000.

Otherwise if you are going to make money of shooting then just grab an A1 because you'll make the money back anyway and its a well tested cam so you know exactly what it does.

With the EOS 5D2's video functionality, isn't it pretty obvious that the replacements for XHA1 and H1 will have a large sensor and that it will probably allow you to utilize EF lenses?

Perhaps I should hold off my A1 purchase until the replacement is announced.. Looks like it'll be rental houses for me.

I don't think so. If you look at price estimates, the 5D2 is only a little cheaper than the A1, but lacks many of the features pro video shooters commonly use. If you add the pro video features, you end up with a much more expensive unit than the A1.

In deference to Chris, I'll stop now and refer to this thread:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/digital-video-industry-news/130966-full-hd-canon-eos-5d-mk-ii-officially-announced.html

which encapsulates all the discussion points in one place

That will be nice but Canon take a long time to change their technology, I would say waiting for a new Canon cam is going to be at least 3 years. In the meanwhile you could look at getting a Scarlet which has a 3k sensor and will only cost around $3,000.

Otherwise if you are going to make money of shooting then just grab an A1 because you'll make the money back anyway and its a well tested cam so you know exactly what it does.

Have you seen that the Scarlet spec/price etc is now all up for grabs? If not, the Red site has, well, not details, but what info there is.

Pete, I hear you when you say it will pay itself off, but I disagree. The only way it will pay itself off is when the client chooses to purchase a HD product shot on said camera.

Why do I mention HD product, because HDV and its relatives do not offer substantial benefits to those only offering SD.

In addition, depending on HOW the camera is to be used, then I agree 100%, as the A1 is designed PURELY for video. The 5d, is still a DSLR, with no sound options, let alone functions to take advantage if this incredible video spec.

Basically, from my understanding of the purpose of including video, was to not only compete with Nikon, but to also offer Journo shooters options to capture video at a news scene or somewhere where logistics do not have an ENG shooter handy.

The best thing about the 5dII however, is the fact it records this video in MP4 as RAW. I wouldn't call it a serious competitor for Red. They're different beasts.

Forget FF sensor XH-A1 MkII. Simple reason: impossible to make or sell a 20x zoom lens that would cover the same angle, it would weigh over 20 kg and cost more than a house. 5D sensor size is 43mm diagonal, XH-A1 sensor is 8,5mm. For the same picture angles the lenses would have to 5 times bigger (focal length), which means they would be 5x5x5=125 times bigger in all dimensions for same apertures...

Reality check: 5D sensor is about twice as big as 35mm movie film frame or sensor used in RED, for example.

Canon 5D can shoot some kind of video, but it certaily does not make it a usable video camera. People claiming that have no idea what video/movie production really is and how the tools are used.

...HDV and its relatives do not offer substantial benefits to those only offering SD.Incorrect. The overwhelming consensus of folks from this site have noted how HDV downsampled to SD is clearly superior to SD origination.

The 5d, is still a DSLR, with no sound options...Actually the 5D Mk. II has a mic input.

Forget FF sensor XH-A1 MkII. Simple reason: impossible to make or sell a 20x zoom lens that would cover the same angle, it would weigh over 20 kg and cost more than a house.Bingo! Why this simple fact is so often overlooked is a mystery to me.

Remember also that although photo lenses may be somewhat suitable for filmmaking, without a motorized zoom they're almost useless for event videography and other types of video applications.

Scarlet scrapped for now:

Electronista | RED scraps, rethinks Scarlet camera (http://www.electronista.com/articles/08/09/23/red.scarlet.camera.redux/)


Have you seen that the Scarlet spec/price etc is now all up for grabs? If not, the Red site has, well, not details, but what info there is.

And you will need a 20GB CF card to record aprox. an hour of HD video. Compare the cost of a 20GB card with a good miniDV tape.

Best wishes

Scarlet scrapped for now...Huh? No it hasn't -- see Scarlet's Redesign: WHAT WE KNOW (http://www.scarletuser.com/showthread.php?t=1054). Why would you quote an inaccurate third-party blog (which refers to RED founder Jim Jannard as a "company rep"), when you can get the *real* story direct from the manufacturer? Scarlet hasn't been scrapped... quite the opposite, in fact.

Reality check: 5D sensor is about twice as big as 35mm movie film frame or sensor used in RED, for example.

I think it's the same size as 35mm film, which allows you to use 35mm camera lenses without focal length conversion.

5D sensor is about twice as big as 35mm movie film frame...

The frame size for 35mm still photography is 24mm x 36mm.

The frame size for 35mm motion pictures is 22mm x 16mm (4-perf Academy format).

The frame size for Super35 (or S35) motion pictures is just under 25mm x 19mm.

So yes, a 35mm still-photo frame has more than twice the area of a standard 35mm motion
picture frame and almost double the area of a Super35 motion picture frame. Hope this helps,

The frame size for 35mm still photography is 24mm x 36mm.

The frame size for 35mm motion pictures is 22mm x 16mm (4-perf Academy format).

The frame size for Super35 (or S35) motion pictures is just under 25mm x 19mm.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. :-)

And you will need a 20GB CF card to record aprox. an hour of HD video. Compare the cost of a 20GB card with a good miniDV tape.

Best wishes

To clarify current costs and record times (for my new camera);

Specs from a tapeless camera, the AG HMC-150

PH - 21 Mpbs (1920x1080) - Highest Quality Setting
HA - 17 Mpbs (1920x1080)
HG - 13 Mpbs (1920x1080)
HE - 6 Mpbs (1440x1280) - Long-form Recording


• Extra-long record times - one 32GB SDHC card can hold up to 3 hours in the PH mode mode, 4 hours HA, 5.3 hours at HG mode and 12 hours in the HE mode.

• Records in a full range of HD formats including 1080/60i, 1080/30p, 1080/24p; 720/60p, 720/30p, 720/24p

SDHC class 6 card costs today @ Newegg
8GB = $17
16GB = $36
32GB = $128

I haven't tested it yet, but the HA mode is probably closest to the HDV codec quality wise. The 64GB cards should be out in a week and hopefully the 32GB will take another price drop.

B&Hphoto sent out this review of the XH-A1 last week:

Hands-On with the Canon XH A1 | B&H Photo Video Pro Audio (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/find/newsLetter/CanonXH-A1.jsp)

Chris,

The blog referenced is not inaccurate and refers to Jannard's own post on a public forum. I would consider that to be as close to the real story as possible. Anything else, including the conjectures of the moderator on the same forum, are hearsay. Scrap may be a poorly chosen word, but the meaning is the same. Links to the post are in the blog entry and readers are free to make any judgement they wish to make based on the information (or lack of it) that has been provided.

Joel, the word "scrap" is not just a poorly chosen word, it's downright misleading. The meaning is certainly *not* the same and it seems to be intentionally chosen in order to negatively spin the fact that the camera is simply being redesigned.

If you want to get "as close to the real story as possible," just refer to the source, as I did, by pointing to Jim's original link at scarletuser.com. I don't see how anyone can possibly consider a third-party blog (which can't even properly identify RED's company CEO) as being more credible than RED's own domain. And yes, their forum moderator, being much closer to the source and much more closely involved, has exponentially more credibility than a passing blogger who obviously has not bothered to take in the full context of Jim's announcement.

I guess I'm adamant that readers be given the *full* story in order to be free to make any judgement they wish to make. They can get that full story in proper context by reading Jim's post in entirety along with the 550 replies it has generated so far. That's why it's so important to reference original sources as opposed to skewed, ill-informed and selectively quoted blurbs by third-party bloggers.

Joel, the word "scrap" is not just a poorly chosen word, it's downright misleading. The meaning is certainly *not* the same and it seems to be intentionally chosen in order to negatively spin the fact that the camera is simply being redesigned.

How about 'scrubbed':
Red Scarlet Concept Scrubbed, Re-Designed at FreshDV (http://www.freshdv.com/2008/09/red-scarlet-scrubbed-redesigned.html)

'Replaced':
Camcorders: Red Scarlet Cam Replaced With a "New Vision" (http://gizmodo.com/5053579/red-scarlet-cam-replaced-with-a-new-vision)

'Starts over':
Red One starts over with Scarlet | Mystic Hackers (http://www.mystichackers.com/red-one-starts-over-with-scarlet.html)

'Cancelled':
Technorati: Discussion about “Red Scarlet camera cancelled” (http://technorati.com/posts/JKLvpPoeNz6K02s3nIz%2BpTY9yC84v5EKOAWMHB0PNzo%3D?sub=_4STSOK0RlhHSkGH4Xx_dwzEwtKQI5w1cOzwEWMYz0M%3D)

The fault is not with the bloggers, its with the company for not stating their plans clearly. Whether you like it or not the way news is reported and discussed is something the newsmakers need to think about before they start typing.

I take issue with "Cancelled." It is not cancelled.

The fault is not with the bloggers, its with the company for not stating their plans clearly. Whether you like it or not the way news is reported and discussed is something the newsmakers need to think about before they start typing.Well on that point I agree with you wholeheartedly. I appreciate your stating it that way because it is of course absolutely true.

Ah yes, good point on the lens size being an issue..

How about this idea though.. The camera will have the full 35mm sensor like the 5D2 (or an APS-C sized sensor).. The body will accept EF lenses which will work with the full sensor to achieve shallow DOF. It will also have a cropped sensor mode where you can mount a smaller lens designed specifically for this cropped area of the sensor? Nikon has this feature on the D3, I don't see why it wouldn't work in a video camera..

This will basically combine the DOF adapter into the camera.

Lets face it, these are exciting times and RED is cutting edge. I'm sure the reason why Jim hasn't stated their full plans is that it stirs more interest and in his company. He probably doesn't care whether Joe Bloggs puts on a forum a word that isn't completely accurate he just wants people to be talking about RED and getting excited and passionate about his product.
Scarlet probably has a few different flavours that she could come in and they are waiting to see what the competition is doing and what their tech guys can do to make her the best possible product.

Ah yes, good point on the lens size being an issue..

How about this idea though.. The camera will have the full 35mm sensor like the 5D2 (or an APS-C sized sensor).. The body will accept EF lenses which will work with the full sensor to achieve shallow DOF. It will also have a cropped sensor mode where you can mount a smaller lens designed specifically for this cropped area of the sensor? Nikon has this feature on the D3, I don't see why it wouldn't work in a video camera..

This will basically combine the DOF adapter into the camera.

That does sound like a good idea and I don't know enough about the theory behind it to know if it would work or not... but I don't think the camera needs a 20x lens just to be considered a video camera. I think just an EF mount would be sufficient and a good kit lens.

Cameras with larger sensors and exhancable lenses are there in the shops waiting for buyers. They cost around $100000 and up. Why would you like XH-A1 to be turned into one of those??? It is a perfect compromise considering size, features, quality and price. Why add a 12-wheel semi to a BMW and think it would be an improvement?

Besides a SLR lens is not a good video lens for many reasons. A pro video lens needs motorized zoom, precise manual focus with a possible rack focus, longer zoom ranges than typical high quality still lenses etc.

Cameras with larger sensors and exhancable lenses are there in the shops waiting for buyers. They cost around $100000 and up. Why would you like XH-A1 to be turned into one of those???

If Canon could make an HD video camera with a large sensor and interchangeable lenses for a fraction of the cost of the cameras you mentioned, wouldn't that be a good thing? Oh wait, they just did it...

I believe full frame sensors will be relegated to the next generation UHD cameras. I really don't get why full frame is even suggested (except for DOF) when we don't need a 21MP sensor to downconvert to a 2.07MP (1920X1080) image.

If DOF were the only concern, the mfgs could increase the lens backfocus distance to the sensor and accentuate the DOF effect. Mfgs. are not going to do this because correct focus in video is critical and having greater DOF would only make getting perfectly focused shots even more difficult. For those of us using DSLRs, just think how hard it is to get the correct area focused when using a F1.4 aperture. You don't want that on an ENG video camera.

Maybe a micro 4/3 sensor though.

If DOF were the only concern, the mfgs could increase the lens backfocus distance to the sensor and accentuate the DOF effect. Mfgs. are not going to do this because correct focus in video is critical and having greater DOF would only make getting perfectly focused shots even more difficult.

Say what? If we wanted everything razor-sharp all video cameras would use smaller sensors and no one would even mention depth of field, but there are many situations where a larger sensor is preferable. And the new Canon SLR reportedly works very well in low light settings, which is another issue concerning many videographers.

As far as an XH-A1 replacement is concerned, a camera with a large sensor recording 39 Mb/sec on CF cards for under $5000 would be pretty sweet, and Canon has effectively shown they could do that.

Cameras with larger sensors and exhancable lenses are there in the shops waiting for buyers. They cost around $100000 and up. Why would you like XH-A1 to be turned into one of those???

I do'nt get what you're trying to say.. should we be going "Hey lucky us, they have cameras costing $100,000 and up for what we want!" Lucky us that we have the option of spending that kind of dough if we want shallow DOF and good low light performance. Lucky for us that if we can't afford that price, none of cameras available to us for $4000 would offer those attributes!

What I was trying to say was that XH-A1 is what it is (and a great one) and that it is impossible to turn it into a 35mm FF video camera, and there is absolutelly no reason to do it. There are that kind of cameras already available, but for several reasons they cost a fortune. It is cheap to make a video capable DSLR or compact, but video capability does not turn them into serously usable video cameras. Usable for some applications, maybe, but a 5D2 is not a Panavision. There are good reasons why movie/video cameras are what they are and still cameras also. Technology does change things and progress is being made, but things like DOF are not governed by electronics, it is an optical thing. Software costs nothing to duplicate and sharp sensors are getting cheaper, but making a fast big zoom lens for a FF size sensor costs almost the same it has always done. And it is just as big as it always was, and there is no way around it.

Would you really like to carry around a XH-A1 MkII, about three times the size of MkI (three sensors and splitter prisms) and a 35-700mm F1.6 zoom? The front lens alone would be size of a dinner plate...

Asking for that would be akin to wanting the next BMW to be like a open pit 120 ton dumpster, because then you could move really big loads with it...

Different jobs, different tools.