Those not coming from AVCHD sources -- really shouldn't want to make AVCHD discs.

True -- AVCHD is a well known brand name. But, it is very restrictive even when we use
High 4.1. One wants High 4.1, not only because it supports 25Mbps, but because High uses smarter encoding tools!

If we have BD burners we want get what BD does for Hollywood -- make 5.1 DD, 1080p24 movies, with menus. (Or, 720p24/720p30 plus 72050/720p60o=.)

But, if we have red-laser burners we need BD-5/9 that can use everything BD offers, but can be burned on a red-laser disc.

We want a choice of H.264 or MPEG-2 codecs. At 35Mbps, there is not only no quality advantage to H.264, the encoding time for MPEG-2 is much much shorter. Obviously, H.264 has the advantage of being able to be used at only 25Mbps, but then one can use AVCHD.

So this thread is for those who want to burn MPEG-2 or H.264/AVC using the BD-5/9 format that plays on BD drives and the PS3.

And, supports Dolby 2/0 or 3/2.1 and menus.

And, supports 1080p24.

And, supports 720p.

Steve and other future respondents,

I am aware of only one technique, using the commercial authoring suite Scenarist (cost is approx. $5000) along with Nero (ironically) and other programs which can be used to make a red laser disk as you define it in your post. This method is clearly not for the faint of heart, nor is it for somebody lacking extremely deep pockets, or a lot of time. The method I refer to is at:

Quick Blu-ray content (BD, BD-5 and BD-9) authoring guide (PS3+PowerDVD) [Archive] - Doom9's Forum (http://forum.doom9.org/archive/index.php/t-134402.html)

I certainly would welcome any method whatsoever to put mpeg2 on red-laser disks which would then play on the PS3 and other BluRay players. I, for one, have tons of HDV and other mpeg2 content I would love to bring over from my hundreds of self-authored HD DVD library.

Have you seen any other method of creating disks without the cost and complexity?

Thanks in advance for any info to any / all respondents.

Larry

Larry, the NV manual seems not up to date, as they only mention BDAV. (Actually, a March 2008 review also claims only BDAV with NO menus. And, that's what the site claims too.) And, trial version is useless. Before I buy, a couple of questions:

1) can you import a AC3 2/0 and 3/2.0 audio file?

2) If you don't modify this file -- does it simply mux this with the video stream?

3) Let's assume you want the video encoding to be done by NV:

When you select AVCHD, what is the maximum bit-rate?

4) When you select BD -- I remember (I think) that you could choose to encode using either MPEG-2 or H.264/AVC. Correct?

The MAX MPEG-2 data rate is?

The MAX H.264/AVC data rate is?

5) Does one have the option of creating "folders and files" on the harddisk -- without burning the disc? If so, can one come back later and IN VISION burn the "folders and files" to disc? Or, do you need to use a different burning application? (MF6+ can't burn from folders.)

6) Lastly, I see an Option to select Progressive. Can you also select the frame-rate? How about frame-size?

MF7 is coming which means it could be the time to switch to NV.

PS: yes i saw the doom post. Not what most FCP users would want to go thru. :)

I certainly would welcome any method whatsoever to put mpeg2 on red-laser disks which would then play on the PS3 and other BluRay players. I, for one, have tons of HDV and other mpeg2 content I would love to bring over from my hundreds of self-authored HD DVD library.

TSMuxer 1.8.4b. Everything but menus. It has chapter stops, AC3 5.1, 24p, doesn't re-encode. You feed it an elementary mpeg2 video stream and AC3 audio stream. It muxes the streams into a .m2ts, and generates the BDMV folders. You burn the folders onto a DVD-ROM UDF 2.5 disk with Nero or ImgBurn. Lastly, it tricks the player into thinking it's AVCHD so it autoplays from a red laser disk. Works great with 1440x1080i HDV or 1920x1080i/p native mpeg2, any bitrate. It's free. Google it.

You feed it an elementary mpeg2 video stream and AC3 audio stream.

Assume one gives-up on menus -- if one is editing with any OS X application, the two things they don't do is output .mpg and .ac3.

To get these files, one must use Compressor which leaves out both iM08 and iM06. (And, perhaps Premiere Pro.)

OK -- you leave the iM folks out and one has a solution for FCPS users -- who IMHO are the very ones who will need menus. That seems to bring us back to Nero and MovieFactory.

There is an advantage to letting the burning app to the final encode. Once you have chose AVCHD or BD, you can use their Templates.

For example, I created my own MPEG2 template and boosted the data rate to 35Mbps peak. This should be legal. BD disk stutters badly when the meter goes above 30Mbps. Yet, I was playing Joe Kane's Calibration BD and the VC-1 data rate was peaking at 50Mbps.

I suspect consumer encoders, particularly in one-pass mode, do not control the data rate very well. Which may be the reason their Templates have values far lower than the BD or AVCHD spec.

PS: If I remember right, Cinema Tools will add 2-3 pulldown to a 1080p24 file giving you 1080i60. I can't remember if it does this by adding flags or has to recompress the whole file.

For example, I created my own MPEG2 template and boosted the data rate to 35Mbps peak. This should be legal. BD disk stutters badly when the meter goes above 30Mbps. Yet, I was playing Joe Kane's Calibration BD and the VC-1 data rate was peaking at 50Mbps.

I suspect consumer encoders, particularly in one-pass mode, do not control the data rate very well. Which may be the reason their Templates have values far lower than the BD or AVCHD spec.

PS: If I remember right, Cinema Tools will add 2-3 pulldown to a 1080p24 file giving you 1080i60. I can't remember if it does this by adding flags or has to recompress the whole file.

I have seen the same thing, stuttering when the bit rate goes over about 30 mbps average bit rate. It seems to be fine on peaks quite a bit higher. I'm in agreement with Larry about that. It seems like it's buffer overflow. I have burned red laser Blu-ray disks using the native EX1, unwrapped MXF 35mbps VBR mpeg-2. It plays perfectly for about a minute, then stutters until you press pause, and then play (for another minute).

But I have assumed this limitation was due to playback from red laser media, because like you I have seen higher bitrates from actual Blu-ray commercial disks, very high AVC or VC1, althouth the mpeg-2 disks do seem to me to run at a lower bitrate.

If you use the Main Concept mpeg2 encoder in Vega Pro 8.0(c) there are Blu-ray templates. You can customize them, but if you accept the default bit rates, (25mbps average, peak 30mbps) the playback seems to me about optimum.

I'm a PC. And I approved this message.

But I have assumed this limitation was due to playback from red laser media, because like you I have seen higher bitrates from actual Blu-ray commercial disks, very high AVC or VC1, althouth the mpeg-2 disks do seem to me to run at a lower bitrate.

Even with BD media I need to keep the peak at 25Mbps with single-pass. I suspect the key to getting higher rates is to use 2-pass which MAY more tightly control bursts. MF has it's AVCHD preset at 15Mbps, I'm trying a burn at 17Mbps.

UPDATE: looks like the MF MPEG2 encoder gives OK quality, but with terrible stuttering no matter how low I set the rate. Sony BD gives much worse quality, but with no stuttering. (Pinnacle and Cyberlink give horrible AVCHD, so I ruled them out. So I decided to buy Nero to see how it's encoders are.


PS: Yes, it is the VBR buffer that overflows. I modified an Open Source MPEG-2 encoder to handle HD and there is a formula that computes from the bit-rate the VBR size necessary.

Forget Nero if you want to burn BD! It only does the old old BDAV format which means NO menus at all. You can use the free Muxer if you don't want menus -- and you can do 24p too.

Nero can be used to make fancy AVCHD discs, but is limited to encoding at 17Mps. It will pass through higher bit rate .m2ts -- but what app generates them? Certainly not Vegas.

Nero also crashes if you try to use a ProRes file even though other Windows apps accept them. MJPG files, supported by almost all Windows application, import without video -- and then Nero crashes. Now I'm going to waste time trying to get my money back.

PS: Vegas will export 16Mbps .m2ts files that can be used by Nero or MF6. With MF6 you can add menus and burn to BD and not re-encode.

Why would one burn only 16Mbps to BD when the spec SHOULD allow at twice that? It turns out the 16Mbps peaks at 20Mbps and there is NO stuttering. AVCHD at 16.5Mbps is about equal to MPEG-2 encoded by MF6+ at 25Mbps -- which DOES stutter.

Thus, BD simply removes the time limits of burning to red-laser DVDs.

I have yet to get MF6+ to not re-encode .m2v + .ac3. Yes, it will pass-through .m2t, but that means no 5.1 audio.

Forget Nero if you want to burn BD! It only does the old old BDAV format which means NO menus at all. You can use the free Muxer if you don't want menus -- and you can do 24p too.

Nero can be used to make fancy AVCHD discs, but is limited to encoding at 17Mps. It will pass through higher bit rate .m2ts -- but what app generates them? Certainly not Vegas.

Nero also crashes if you try to use a ProRes file even though other Windows apps accept them. MJPG files, supported by almost all Windows application, import without video -- and then Nero crashes. Now I'm going to waste time trying to get my money back.




Steve,

This is not at all the case from my own limited experience with Nero Vision 5 creating BD disks. I just made yet another full BDMV disk to confirm my earlier experiences, and Nero writes a standard BDMV folder, a CERTIFICATE folder, and even uses the default name for the disk "BD-MV" unless you change it to somwething else.

I have not tried ProRes files, but have used MJPEG from my Canon TX-1 HD camera, and have not seen it crash either.

It does indeed pass thru high bitrate content from such sources as the Canon HF11, but will only encode to 17 Mbits/sec if you manually choose to do so.

I am not well versed in using Nero Vision as a BD disk authoring tool, and in fact would NEVER recommend it for such purposes, but I have to report that it makes perfectly usable BDMV disks here with animated menus, Digital Dolby, etc. very much as it would if I used it in the AVCHD creation mode.

I can't even figure out a way to force it to make the BDAV style disks so I am entirely puzzled by your message. To add to my confusion, I looked at both the Help file and the User Manual and both refer to only BDAV!

Larry

TSMuxer 1.8.4b. Everything but menus. It has chapter stops, AC3 5.1, 24p, doesn't re-encode. You feed it an elementary mpeg2 video stream and AC3 audio stream. It muxes the streams into a .m2ts, and generates the BDMV folders. You burn the folders onto a DVD-ROM UDF 2.5 disk with Nero or ImgBurn. Lastly, it tricks the player into thinking it's AVCHD so it autoplays from a red laser disk. Works great with 1440x1080i HDV or 1920x1080i/p native mpeg2, any bitrate. It's free. Google it.


Thanks very much Tom. I'll download it and check it out.

Larry

I think I now know why Steve and Mircea may have seen different Nero performance from me in 2 earlier replies. I am not entirely sure this is the explanation, but it would seem to explain it all:

I purchased, for an earlier version of Nero, an optional add-in which expanded the functionality of Nero 7 to include HD DVD and some BluRay BDMV functionality. This was added maybe 18 months ago when it was released.

It appears that the newer Nero 8 I subsequently purchased must be using the addin. This is actually something I confirmed by looking in the Control Center licensing panel, where the serial number for my old purchase shows up in addition to the serial number for Nero 8. I therefore have a more robust and more competent version, which is why I am authoring BDMV with Nero Vision and playing AVCHD disks with Show Time with no problems.

I had not considered that an earlier purchase for an older version would have any impact but it apparently does.

The good news is that this plugin/addin is totally transparent, works exactly as claimed, and adds tons of functionality, as shown below. I bought it for $20 when it was first released.

The description is below.

Larry

see: http://www.nero.com/eng/bluray-hddvd-video-plugin.html
_____________________________________________________________


Blu-ray / HD DVD Video Plug-in
Play your Blu-ray and HD DVD Video on your PC
This plug-in can only be used with Nero 7 or Nero 8
Experience the quality of Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD right on your PC! With the Blu-ray/HD DVD Video Plug-in, you now have access to advanced authoring, playback, and editing features for your High Definition content.

Play your favorite Blu-ray Discs and HD DVDs on your PC
Experience true High Definition video with brilliant images in Full HD (1080p)
Enjoy outstanding audio quality up to 5.1 channels with Dolby® Digital, Dolby® Digital Plus, Dolby®TrueHD and DTS Digital Surround
Edit HD video content and then burn to Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD
Save time by modifying your editable Blu-ray videos right on the disc – no need to copy to another drive!
Record Blu-ray or HD DVD videos from your HDV or DV camcorder and customize it the way you like by adding menus, play lists, etc., or store content in its raw, compressed format on a Blu-ray Disc without loss of quality
Use highly interactive menus and other Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD advanced features throughout movie playback
This plug-in will enhance your Nero applications with the following technologies:
HD DVD-Video playback and authoring*
Blu-ray Disc playback, authoring, and editing**
MPEG-2 decoding/encoding***
VC-1 decoding
H.264 AVC decoding with AVC Film Grain
Dolby® Digital 5.1 decoding/encoding***
Dolby® Digital EX decoding
Dolby® Digital Plus 5.1 decoding
Dolby® TrueHD 5.1 decoding
DTS® Digital Surround 5.1 decoding
AACS Playback

* HD DVD-Video authoring is only available in Nero 8, playback requires Nero 7.8 or higher
** Playback of BD-ROM 2.0 and authoring or playback of BD-R 2.0 and BD-RE 3.0 (BDMV formats) requires Nero 8.2 or higher. Currently supported BD-ROM profile is 1.0. Playback and authoring of BD-R 1.0 and BD-RE 2.0 (BDAV formats) requires Nero 7.8 or higher. Editing requires Nero 7.8 or higher and is not available in Nero Vision Essentials SE.
*** Also included in the full version of Nero 8

Important Information
The Blu-ray/HD DVD Video Plug-in can be used with:
Nero 7 full version
Nero 7 Essentials
Nero 8 full version
Nero 8 Essentials
The Blu-ray/HD DVD Video Plug-in cannot be used as a stand-alone product.

Playback of commercial Blu-ray Disc titles (BD-ROM) is only available with Nero 8. Several titles featuring interactive content are currently not supported. Title compatibility will be improved with periodic free updates.

To enable the Blu-ray/HD DVD/DTS plugins, there is a separate license key that has to be entered for each one. Instructions for how to do it come with the confirmation emails from NERO.

SMART GUYS

I copied the S# from the website confirmation and entered it during install.

Now I've gone back to the email and found the extra information. So now I'll get a new BD option that I paid for.

UPDATE: The new plug-in seems to fix all the crashes I found.

Thanks guys!

I think i get the drift of your post / question... but I must admit it made my head hurt reading it!

Those not coming from AVCHD sources -- really shouldn't want to make AVCHD discs.

True -- AVCHD is a well known brand name. But, it is very restrictive even when we use
High 4.1. One wants High 4.1, not only because it supports 25Mbps, but because High uses smarter encoding tools!

If we have BD burners we want get what BD does for Hollywood -- make 5.1 DD, 1080p24 movies, with menus. (Or, 720p24/720p30 plus 72050/720p60o=.)

But, if we have red-laser burners we need BD-5/9 that can use everything BD offers, but can be burned on a red-laser disc.

We want a choice of H.264 or MPEG-2 codecs. At 35Mbps, there is not only no quality advantage to H.264, the encoding time for MPEG-2 is much much shorter. Obviously, H.264 has the advantage of being able to be used at only 25Mbps, but then one can use AVCHD.

So this thread is for those who want to burn MPEG-2 or H.264/AVC using the BD-5/9 format that plays on BD drives and the PS3.

And, supports Dolby 2/0 or 3/2.1 and menus.

And, supports 1080p24.

And, supports 720p.

Now that Nero is working I can report three things:

1) The Nero AVCHD encoder is as unusable as those used by Pinnacle and CyberLink. Fast moves when shooting trees with tiny leaves and pine needles drives the encoder nuts. The trees become enveloped in a cloud of bugs.

2) The Vegas AVC encoder handles the trees with no problem. Perfect video. Peaks up to 20Mbps. Feeding this THOUGH MF makes perfect AVCHD discs. Feeding it through Nero hangs at 50S of "transcoding." Whatever Sony is exporting Nero will not pass. I hope to figure out why.

3) The MPEG-2 encoder in MF is terrible. Continuous stutter at any bit rate. The MainConcept encoder in Vegas works perfectly and passes through Nero perfectly -- although it will not pass through MF.

Bottom-line, there's a reason why MainConcept is OEMed by Sony and Vegas. Seems they really know how to make great encoders.

PS: I haven't tried Nero's MPEG-2 encoder yet.

Steve,

Under what type of conditions did the Nero AVCHD encoder look unusable?

Larry

As I said in my previous post:

"Fast moves when shooting trees with tiny leaves and/or pine needles drives the encoder nuts. The trees become enveloped in a cloud of bugs." This is same crap I see from Pinnacle and CyberLink. The Sony AVC codec, at 16Mbps, handles this video perfectly. Of course, it can be switched to HIGH.

That means Nero can only be used in Smart render mode from Sony AVC or MainConcept encoders and/or scenes without moving fine detail. (I suspect the non-Sony products all use only MAIN Profile which prevents the encoder switching to 4x4 blocks when there is fine detail.)

I'm now trying to see why Nero hangs with .m2ts files from Sony when burning AVCHD discs. It may be something about the audio and/or video streams.

I should have been specific with my question Steve:

--What type of file were you encoding / transcoding? AVCHD, mpeg2, ??

--What was the file's source (camcorder output, rendered output of another NLE, etc...)

--What was the encoder being asked to do.....change bitrate, remux, convert CBR to VBR, etc....)

--What was your intended output format.....AVCHD, mpeg2??


I ask the above since my experience substantially disagrees with your observations, but I have ONLY used Nero Vision to make AVCHD disks, specifically to ingest AVCHD files, edit them, and then output AVCHD disks. Any other transcodes and conversions from one compressed format to another (like taking AVCHD to make mpeg2 BluRay disks, for example) I have not tried.....

Larry

I have yet to get MF6+ to not re-encode .m2v + .ac3. Yes, it will pass-through .m2t, but that means no 5.1 audio.

.m2t does not mean no 5.1 audio to MF6+. I used it frequently to pass through 1440x1080i60 HDV video with 5.1 audio. The problem I had with MF6+ was that the BDMV it authored would not play from red laser media. I devised a workaround for that, by taking the .m2ts file it created, and using it to replace the same file in another program back in the day called TSRemux. It was a hack but it allowed me to burn red laser BDMV disks. Don't confuse TSRemux with the program I use and recommend now, TSMuxer 1.8.4b. Both programs do similar things and have a similar name but are written by different authors. TSMuxer 1.8.4b is much better.

The other problem for me with MF6+, is the current problem I have with it. While it was super for HDV, with the full raster 1920x1080 from the EX1 it insists on rendering, I can't get it to smart render.

Anyway, good luck on your journey with Nero. I honestly sort of dreaded it because it burns so much time searching for the workflow that does everything you need, if it exists. In fact, I still haven't encoded a thing with it. All of my experimentation was trying to see what I could get it to smart render. It still killed most of a day.

Tom, Steve, et al,

Just to put a sharp point on the red laser BDMV format:


It has been my understanding as well as my experience that a red laser BDMV is a specious and unsupported format, which no commercial authoring software can produce, and no BluRay player can officially play.

Unlike red laser HD DVDs which the Toshiba players handled without complaint, and several programs could nicely author, it seems that Sony and the other BluRay consortium members have deliberately not provided any direct or indirect method to allow for people with HDV, AVCHD, or, for that matter, any other HD content to deliver BDMV which their players truly support UNLESS you burn BluRay disks using BluRay burners.

I am aware of hacks, hex editing of BluRay BDMV folder content followed by UDF 2.5 red laser burning, methods using Scenarist and other very esoteric techniques, but the bottom line is that such a format may play today on one or more players but then, by the stroke of some firmware upgrade, no longer play at all.

I understand that such disks can be made, that they have a name like BD-5 or BD-9, and that they can be made to work under very specific conditions, but am I missing something here?

Or, to get more to the point, why is there any particular interest in creating disks which can only potentially play in some, perhaps very few players, and are not neccesarily going to persist? Tricking a player into thinking it has a BluRay disk is indeed a nice hack, but I am trying to understand the practical / professional opportunity to use this is some continuing manner.

Larry

Or, to get more to the point, why is there any particular interest in creating disks which can only potentially play in some, perhaps very few players, and are not neccesarily going to persist? Tricking a player into thinking it has a BluRay disk is indeed a nice hack, but I am trying to understand the practical / professional opportunity to use this is some continuing manner.

Larry

Larry I agree with all your points. It's certainly possible it could go away in the future, although presently it works. But as far as the commercial opportunity, if I produced the content that would merit it, I would put it on a Blu-ray pressing. With AVCHD, there is no way to protect the content. Anything really serious in my mind would be commercially pressed, with copy protections, sub-titles and multiple tracks. I do not feel that menus are really needed for content under an hour of running time. They ARE fun to make, and ARE a nice demonstration of creative talent to round out the package, but would not be a deal breaker for most people. Chapter stops are the essential requirement. So it's all just my opinion anyway. It's not for me to judge others.

But one way I looked at it, is presently except for not having a menu or an especially long running time, a collaboration that I would author onto a hybrid red laser BD5/9, will play on 5+ million PS3 Blu-ray players currently. Why worry about the others? They are so few in number as to be inconsequential. Nevertheless, the hybrid BD5/9's do play in some of them, with possibly as much compatibility as exists for AVCHD or even BD-R/RE.

Although lacking the menu itself, the image of a mpeg2 full raster 1920x1080p24 at 30mbps with 5.1 is near the top of the 30 cent format heap. What's to lose? I can be a big fish in a little pond! But seriously, the quality is stellar.

Thanks very much Tom for your reply. I mostly wanted to confirm my understanding, and see if I had somehow overlooked some fundemental point.

The Playstation 3 is no doubt the single biggest platform now being used for BluRay playback, and I too use the PS3 as my major home theater player, but I have already had at least 2 episodes where firmware upgrades have abruptly changed the way my PS3 handles certain AVCHD disks, even though such AVCHD disks are based on published and agreed-upon standards. It is altogether common for me to see that AVCHDs coming from one of my several workflows/NLEs played perfectly well before a firmware upgrade from Sony and then entirely refuses to play at all or with huge stuttering. In fact one of my favorite ways to create AVCHD disks using ArcSoft's Total Media Extreme, has been totally abandoned since the AVCHD disks play perfectly in my Sony BDS-350 (latest profile, vintage July 2008 release) player but refuse to play at all in the Playstation 3 despite having the newest firmware flash just a few weeks ago.

I am thus very cynical about building a library of any format which is here today and gone tomorrow, and doing hundreds of HD DVDs didn't help............ I therefore am hoping to avoid some of the torture surrounding the creeping formats (and creeping HDCP, HDMI, etc.) which Sony now is using to make virtually all HD content totally under their DRM and other controls.

So, long story short.........I am personally not looking to hitch my wagon to a horse that is running off in a momentarily stable but unpredictable course.

And while it is true that good 25-30 Mbit/sec mpeg2 HD looks extremely nice on both BluRay and HD DVD players, the non-transcoded AVC coming from the current AVCHD camcorders going directly to an AVCHD disk without being re-compressed are equally sharp and suffer essentially no more visual artifacts that mpeg2 going to a BluRay or HD DVD disk.

As a sidebar, I am also extremely concerned that the thin protective coating put on pressed commercial BluRay disks (I believe it is around .1 mm thick) may not be present on the home-burned BluRay disks, adding yet another potential headache for those of us who hope to be able to view these videos years from now. It is quite possible that even those of us willing to make the investment in burners and media for BluRay mau be looking at unreadable disks in the not too distant future. This keeps me more motivated to squeeze every drop out of AVCHD format, red laser delivery, etc., so as to avoid the disappointment of being unable to read these $20 disks because of fading contrast, dye stability, scuffing, scratches, and so on.

Larry

The compatibility problem I had was with HD DVDs. I authored a slew of disks for the original A1. They played great until I got an A2. All the disks stuttered so bad on the video and audio they were unwatchable. I found the problem and posted the solution on the AVSFORUM. The problem was the A2 required either DVD-R media, or (better) DVD+R media but with the booktype bitsetting set to "Physical Media Type," ...not DVD-ROM. That solved ALL playback problems but I still had slugs of stuttering disks. When the A3 came around, they were back to reporting more problems with home authored media, but by that time I had a working method for the PS3, and HD DVD conceded the war shortly afterward.

But so far I haven't had a single problem on the PS3 side through all the updates with the TSMuxer 1.8.4b, (not even with the AVCHD files I've played for that matter). Compared to HD DVD, the PS3 further has the advantage of outputting honest to goodness native 24p just like the commercial recordings, something HD DVD authoring didn't offer although certain HD DVD players did. The 24fps AVCHD from the Canon and Sony consumer cams playback for me from the PS3 as 1080i60 or 1080p60, but not 1080p24, so it has judder frames.

I really don't see the need for 24fps from the AVCHD cams anyway. Although it adds a filmic feel, the depth of field is not shallow due to the small sensor size. The other side of the coin is a strong reason for shooting the EX1 at 24p, it's a native progressive sensor has higher vertical resolution at 24p than it does at 60i.

It has been my understanding as well as my experience that a red laser BDMV is a specious and unsupported format, which no commercial authoring software can produce, and no BluRay player can officially play.

"BD9/BD5 discs can be authored using home computers for private showing using standard DVD±R recorders. AACS digital rights management is optional. The BD9/BD5 format was originally proposed by Warner Home Video, as a cost-effective alternative to regular Blu-ray Discs. It was adopted as part of the BD-ROM basic format, file system, and AV specifications. BD9/BD5 is similar to 3×DVD for HD DVD."

.m2t does not mean no 5.1 audio to MF6+.

If you have software that can produce an ATSC Transport Stream, yes the .m2t can be 5.1 AC3.

However, most software that outputs .m2t (HDV) muxes .m2v and .mp2.

Anyway, I've got a working OS X (ProRes, uncompressed, or M-JPEG) to BD flow -- with 5.1 mix and menus.

I'm out of blank DVD-Rs. Once, I have them, I can find-out why Nero is hanging on .m2ts files from Sony that MF accepts. That will get an AVCHD workflow.

Since Vegas puts out VERY good 16Mbps AVCHD with 5.1 AC3 -- it's not clear BD-5/-9 is needed. If one accepts a 2:1 advantage of AVC over MPEG-2, then that is about 32Mbps of MPEG-2.

Now compare this to 1920x1080 ATSC which is 18Mbps. We know this isn't enough for rapid motion. And, we also know XDCAM EX at 35Mbps is fine. So, 32Mbps should also be fine for making BD discs.

Again, the key -- as Sony always says -- is not the data rate, it is the quality of the encoder.

PS: Nero has an AUTO setting on Type of video. It has no setting for frame-rate. So, maybe it will pass-though 1080p24 from Vegas.

"BD9/BD5 discs can be authored using home computers for private showing using standard DVD±R recorders. AACS digital rights management is optional. The BD9/BD5 format was originally proposed by Warner Home Video, as a cost-effective alternative to regular Blu-ray Discs. It was adopted as part of the BD-ROM basic format, file system, and AV specifications. BD9/BD5 is similar to 3×DVD for HD DVD."

Thanks very much Steve. I think this is encouraging, and now wonder why the dozen or more authoring software companies have yet to support it. Most of us would like to avoid BluRay format for relatively short family movies and such which would get very limited distribution. With a dzoen authoring suites on the market or more, eventually somebody will have to offer some tools. If the companies making set-top BluRay players incorporated the support, that might avoid what could be a "chicken-and-egg" problem currently.

Since Vegas puts out VERY good 16Mbps AVCHD with 5.1 AC3 -- it's not clear BD-5/-9 is needed. If one accepts a 2:1 advantage of AVC over MPEG-2, then that is about 32Mbps of MPEG-2.

Except that Vegas 16Mbps AVCHD doesn't support 24p...

I tried making a BD-5 with 720p60 in AVC through Vegas 8, came up with blank undecodable video once I put it on my PS3. 1080i works wonders though for both AVC and MPEG-2.

Except that Vegas 16Mbps AVCHD doesn't support 24p...

Consumers with 24p cameras first need to find an NLE that will remove 2-3 pulldown either during conversion to an intermediate format -- or natively. CineForm will do it. I can't remember if FCP does it.

I suspect that many just edit in 60i and don't worry about pulldown cadences being broken. 24p gives them a different "look" which makes them feel they aren't shooting film.

If they really wanted a look that is closest to film itself -- no pulldown judder -- they would shoot 30p. But, it's hard to convince them because "aspirational marketing" has convinced them 24 is a magic number. I think even many prosumers believe the pulldown judder they see -- is what film looks like.

I think getting 24p on AVCHD, BD-5/9, or BD will be possible which is good because I long ago learned that film look fanatics can't be switched to 30p by any kind of rational argument.

My biggest concern is no 720p support. I think Larry is right that originally the goal was to force prosumers down to BDAV or force them up to replication on BDMV. BDMV was restricted to BD-ROM at the start. That logic extends to 720p.

According to Japan-think -- having spent million on pushing FulHD to consumers -- what major company is going to make a 720p consumer camcorder. Not even JVC. Thus, there is no reason to put 720p into "consumer" burning software.

The fact that a whole bunch of prosumers and pros shoot 720p and want to make BD -- seems to be lost. In fact, you said you would want ACC protection. That may mean you'll be forced to follow the high cost path. And, guess what company has a path for you to follow if you've got the $$$.

I think getting 24p on BD-5/9 will be possible which is good because I long ago learned that film look fanatics can't be switched to 30p by any kind of rational argument.

I think you mean "getting 24p on BD-5/9 will be possible on AVCHD." It's already a reality for mpeg2 of course.

I made a BD-5 disk with 25Mbps MPEG-2 data rate. (Peak rate above 30Mbps.) Played with a quite a few glitches with PowerDVD. Wouldn't play with WinDVD -- which matches the behavior that the PS3 exhibits.

I know how to alter folders to make it work, but really what's the point? Sony's AVC encoder at 16Mbps should look just as good.

Unfortunately, after trying half a dozen times to smart render an .m2ts file in Nero 8, only one didn't hang. And, when it hangs, you don't get an error log. Others are reporting the same hang during the "transcode." Why is it transcoding during a smart render?

Need to confirm that making BD is really reliable.

Looks like MF is the only to make AVCHD and Nero 8 the only way to make BD. The former passes AVC while the latter passes MPEG-2. Both, used with Vegas provide 5.1 and menus.

Jeez Never mind Steve, now I understand. You meant .m2ts AVCHD. There is also a flavor of mpeg2 (192 byte TS) which carries the .m2ts suffix.

I'm going to try this myself, Sony 16mbps AVCHD and see if Nero smart renders it without hanging. Standby.

I created 4 .m2ts files in Vegas. Of these 3 passed thru fine. One hung. It could be that Sony is making a bad file, but nothing that can be done about that. Thankfully, MF6+ passes it thru fine.

Nero passed AVCHD without re-encoding, it autoplays when inserted into the PS3, the audio plays but the video doesn't.

If I just copy the source file onto a USB jump drive (no Nero authoring), the PS3 plays it fine.

Nero passed AVCHD without re-encoding, it autoplays when inserted into the PS3, the audio plays but the video doesn't.

If I just copy the source file onto a USB jump drive (no Nero authoring), the PS3 plays it fine.

1) When I made an AVCHD disc with MF it had the correct single BDMV folder. If there is a Certificate folder in a red-laser disk, supposedly the PS3 considers it a data disk. But, if the audio is playing that wouldn't seem to be the problem.

2) When you say you copied the "source" file -- I assume you mean the .m2ts file. Correct?

3) Therefore, it looks like Nero may not be building a folder structure that the PS3 expects. Have you tried PowerDVD and WinDVD and Nero Showtime.

I ask, because when I made a BD with Nero it had problems with all but ShowTime. I made a mental note that perhaps Nero doesn't make fully Kosher DVDs.

I wish I could get Sony MPEG to pass through MF because I've used MF for a long while making HD DVD. I would really prefer to keep using it for BD. I don't like using Nero and I don't trust it. I think it may work fine passing AVCHD through from a hardware encoder.

1) When I made an AVCHD disc with MF it had the correct single BDMV folder. If there is a Certificate folder in a red-laser disk, supposedly the PS3 considers it a data disk. But, if the audio is playing that wouldn't seem to be the problem.

I don't think Nero gave a certificate folder on the red laser disk, but I still don't think that's it. When TSMuxer 1.8.4b creates BDMV it INCLUDES the certificate folder in the compilation. In any case you are correct, it auto-played a black screen with full audio.

2) When you say you copied the "source" file -- I assume you mean the .m2ts file. Correct? Correct. The source file compiled by Vegas. Once passed by Nero into the STREAM folder, I would call it the object or target file. It would be interesting to see if the object file would play on the PS3 if copied onto a usb jump drive. I suspect it will not, because my experience even though something smart renders it can still muck with the file headers.

3) Therefore, it looks like Nero may not be building a folder structure that the PS3 expects. Have you tried PowerDVD and WinDVD and Nero Showtime.
I ask, because when I made a BD with Nero it had problems with all but ShowTime. I made a mental note that perhaps Nero doesn't make fully Kosher DVDs.

No. I will try Nero Showtime, but I don't have the others.


I wish I could get Sony MPEG to pass through MF because I've used MF for a long while making HD DVD. I would really prefer to keep using it for BD. I don't like using Nero and I don't trust it. I think it may work fine passing AVCHD through from a hardware encoder.

I have 100% confidence in Nero. It's proven to me it won't work every time!

I just played the Sony > Nero BD to my HDTV via HDMI from WinDVD BD.

Absolutely perfect playback. When I play only to computer screen there are tiny motion stutters -- which are there even with Hollywood movies. As soon as it feeds a real HDTV the pix is perfectly smooth. The Sony MPEG-2 is perfectly clear even on the "pine needle pans."

I love adding 5.1. audio. I found some spooky music and mixed it so it was not all the way to the rear and it has great room ambiance.

The Nero menus sure aren't professional, but they rarely are in such products.

PS: did you mean to say your 100% confident?

I had a chance to play the Sony > MF6+ AVCHD clips. Again, perfect playback.

WinDVD BD that plays AC3 thru a USB sound "card" to my receiver -- and seems to be the ONLY DVD player that does under Vista -- would not return to the MENU after playing each clip. However, PowerDVD does -- so Nero was making the disc fine.

Now to try to see if I can sneak 24p thru.

Using the same AVC 1920x1080i60 DD5.1 source file from Vegas Pro 8.0(c) that Nero Vision fails with, gives perfect playback when authored with Ulead MF6+ HD Pack.

MF6+ passes the native AVC file without re-encoding it, and creates a menu structure that plays on the PS3. Nice.

A few negatives for MF6+...no motion menus, won't author to folders, won't play from DVD+RW.

A few negatives for MF6+...no motion menus, won't author to folders, won't play from DVD+RW.

So we have both confirmed that Nero fails with streams from Vegas. I remember that if you uncheck burn disc, the folders were created. MF can't burn them, but one of the Nero programs can.

24p looks like it might be hard to get to BD using MPEG-2 because with Vegas 9 one can't modify the MainConcept encoder preset. Can you modify it in Vegas 8c Pro?

=====================

I've been wondering How these consumer tools would handle super HQ video, so now I'm working with 1080p30 clips from a prototype Canon DSLR features:
-full frame(36x24mm) 21MP CMOS sensor, excellent noise figure
-ISO 100-6400
-2700$ tag

full review here: http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canoneos5dmarkII/

Vincent Laforet, a NY based photographer performed a photo/video shoot during the 72hrs. he managed to get his hands on a 5DMk2. Clip here:
http://vincentlaforet.com/

Tom and Steve,

I'm finding this thread to be a bit confusing, and am asking your help to clarify just what is being discussed here.

BD5/BD7 disks are ***not*** AVCHD disks, and yet I get the consistent impression that both of your are merely authoring AVCHD disks with MF6+ and Nero as your most recent examples, using either transcoded mpeg2 (from Vegas) or AVCHD as your sources.

I understand that Tom's method of using tsMuxeR.exe can be used to make true BD5 or dual layer BD9 disks, but I don't get the impresion that this is what is being compared and described.

For whatever it is worth, my own experiences with transcoding mpeg2 onto an AVCHD format h.264 disk have been far less than impressive. I would hardly use the word "perfect" to describe any of them, since the very best of them with Sony or TMPGE's fine codecs still makes it visually obvious that the original mpeg2 has suffered quite a bit after being transcoded, even with high h.264 bitrates. In particular, colors are muted and edges are softened, and new motion artifacts have been added. Direct instant comparisons using concurrent direct playback of the original mpeg2 content from either the camcorder or HD DVD / BluRay blue laser disks against the AVCHD disks makes such a comparison very easy to perform visually, as does the still frame captures and enlargements which clearly show the degraded crops of the transcoded video. I find Nero to be very unattractive as regards how it handles transcoded mpeg2 as input for making AVCHD disks and would certainly never recommend it for that purpose.

As Steve's very first sentence of this thread begins: "Those not coming from AVCHD sources -- really shouldn't want to make AVCHD discs.", a comment I agree with entirely.

Are we really talking BD5/9 disks in this thread?

Larry

The certificate folder, at least in the case of AVCHD disks, is apparently unneccesary. Of the 7 programs I use here to author AVCHD disks, only 2 even create a certificate folder, and in one of those (from Pinnacle 12) the folder has zero bytes of content.

In addition, all 4 of my AVCHD software players as well as my 3 hardware BluRay set top players / PS3 do not care whether the certificate folder is there or not.

Larry

For whatever it is worth, my own experiences with transcoding mpeg2 onto an AVCHD format h.264 disk have been far less than impressive.

Are we really talking BD5/9 disks in this thread?

Larry

No one is talking about MPEG-2 to H.264. Input to Vegas is ProRes 422 HQ, Canopus HQ, DNxHD, or uncompressed -- all from PC or OS X NLEs.

Two separate paths from Sony Vegas: MPEG-2 to BD burned by MF6+ and AVCHD to red-laser burned by Nero.

Neither MF or Nero can encode with the quality that matches that from Sony Vegas. (Same crappy encode as from Pinacle and CyberLink.) And, we found Nero can't be trusted to pass-through AVCHD from Sony, whereas MF can.

As Tom and I worked-out these these two paths -- we may have come to the conclusion there's no need to worry about BD-5/BD-9.

PS: There is NO Certificate folder for AVCHD -- only for BD.

Thanks for the clarification Steve. Then the Sony Vegas mpeg2 to BD path you are burning with MF6+ is a red laser disk? I have yet to find a way to make a red laser disk which plays unless I transcode to AVC. Nor have I found a way to do so with the recently released Corel Movie Factory 7 Pro either. What is your method?

I agree entirely that neither MF6+ nor Nero has an encoder equal to Sony's. TMPGE does also use the MainConcept h.264 encoder with excellent results.

Yup, the certificate folder is indeed unneccesary for AVCHD. Seems like PowerDVD version 8 rejects those disks which incorrectly contain it such as those burned from Pinnacle Ultimate 12. Removing the folder restores the disks to being playable.

Larry

Thanks for the clarification Steve. Then the Sony Vegas mpeg2 to BD path you are burning with MF6+ is a red laser disk? I have yet to find a way to make one which plays.

I agree entirely that neither MF6+ nor Nero has an encoder equal to Sony's. TMPGE does also use the MainConcept h.264 encoder with excellent results.

Yup, the certificate folder is indeed unneccesary for AVCHD. Seems like PowerDVD version 8 rejects those disks which incorrectly contain it such as those burned from Pinnacle Ultimate 12. Removing the folder restores the disks to being playable.

Larry

Looks like the are huge variations in encoder quality and what applications think need to be created. And, variations in what players look for.

Then we add in what some believe is Vista preventing "untrusted" applications from outputting digital data from DVDs and BD. So, AC-3 can't flow through a SPDIF port. So far only WinDVD BD will do so under Vista. Another example, Vista prevents playing DVDs in a "clone" monitor arrangement. All part of MS meeting DRM requirements. Something OS X can't do, which is why their can't be BD players for the Mac.

Thanks for the clarification Steve. Then the Sony Vegas mpeg2 to BD path you are burning with MF6+ is a red laser disk? I have yet to find a way to make a red laser disk which plays unless I transcode to AVC. Nor have I found a way to do so with the recently released Corel Movie Factory 7 Pro either. What is your method?

Larry

Or possibly you are going to blue laser BDs?

No one is talking about MPEG-2 to H.264. Input to Vegas is ProRes 422 HQ, Canopus HQ, DNxHD, or uncompressed -- all from PC or OS X NLEs.

Two separate paths from Sony Vegas: MPEG-2 to BD burned by MF6+ and AVCHD to red-laser burned by Nero.

As Tom and I worked-out these these two paths -- we may have come to the conclusion there's no need to worry about BD-5/BD-9.



I am still trying to digest this and it just doesn't feel right.

You are apparently using Song Vegas to either make BluRay disks with MF6+ for authoring the disk, or using AVC from Sony Vegas 8 Pro to make red laser disks with MF6+ if I understand correctly, and are not making BD5 or BD9 format disks.

You feed Sony Vegas with ProRes 422 HQ, Canopus HQ, DNxHD, or uncompressed input from other editors like Final Cut for ProRes 422, Avid for DNxHD, or Canopus HQ from Edius? I am not aware that Sony Vegas 8 Pro accepts ProRes 422 or DNxHD input formats, but perhaps it does so via its XDCam 422 support. And the XDCam HD422, which Vegas Pro recently supoports in 8.0c, is an mpeg2 format still using I-frames, DCT, but no P or B frames / GOPs.

Isn't your original camera acquisition format also mpeg2 to begin with? If not, where does your uncompressed video come in from?

Larry

I am still trying to digest this and it just doesn't feel right.

You are apparently using Song Vegas to either make BluRay disks with MF6+ for authoring the disk, or using AVC from Sony Vegas 8 Pro to make red laser disks with MF6+ if I understand correctly, and are not making BD5 or BD9 format disks.

You feed Sony Vegas with ProRes 422 HQ, Canopus HQ, DNxHD, or uncompressed input from other editors like Final Cut for ProRes 422, Avid for DNxHD, or Canopus HQ from Edius? I am not aware that Sony Vegas 8 Pro accepts ProRes 422 or DNxHD input formats, but perhaps it does so via its XDCam 422 support. And the XDCam HD422, which Vegas Pro recently supoports in 8.0c, is an mpeg2 format still using I-frames, DCT, but no P or B frames / GOPs.

Isn't your original camera acquisition format also mpeg2 to begin with? If not, where does your uncompressed video come in from?

Larry

Larry, you are correct.

I am trying two things, just to see what's possible:

1.) I already do BD-5/9 with footage from a Sony XDCAM-EX1, which is mpeg-2, 35mbps VBR (HQ) 4:2:0. I shoot it in either 60i or 24p. The best authoring method for this is TSMuxer 1.8.4b, authoring to BDMV structure, (BD-5/9) which plays from red laser disk, with chapters, DD 5.1, but no menus. I have no issues with this workflow, I just don't get menus. The cam's native footage does require one pass through Vegas to get the bit rate down, 35mbps is too high. But the output file remains mpeg-2, 1920x1080 i60 or p24, vbr 30mbps peak, 25mbps av, 20mbps min. This is the visual quality champion for red laser authoring.

2.) The other thing I'm trying is to do pretty much the same as above but with menus at a reduced image quality. For that, the mpeg-2 has to be transcoded to AVC h.264 compatible with AVCHD authoring if it is to smart render, or just inputting it as mpeg-2 if allowing Nero or MF to transcode. No true 24p without pulldown this way, and there is an adverse hit on quality. So the idea is to let the Sony Vegas AVC encoder handle the transcode since it presumably does a better rendering than MF or Nero. This works fine for MF but doesn't work at all with Nero. Nero passes the file through supposedly (100% smart rendering), but it plays only the menus. The video itself plays as a dark screen. The same file smart renders with MF and plays fine, but there are no motion menus for AVCHD disk authoring, just the static menus. Nero can do full motion with AVCHD authoring. MF can do full motion authoring for DVD or BD, but not AVCHD.

You're probably thinking AVC h.264 at 16mbps should look as good as the 25mbps (average) mpeg2 rendered file from the original source 35mbps VBR, but it does not. Doesn't matter what encoder is used, MF, Nero or Sony. Just the way it is.

I hope that helps to clarify. In any case, I do not use Vegas to author or burn, only to transcode an input file that will be subsequently used in TSMuxer 1.8.4b, or MF or Nero.

The object of 1.) and 2.) above is to burn on red laser media. These non-menu/non-motion-menuing, bitrate limiting problems go away with true authoring onto BD25/50 media.

Thanks Tom. I now understand things a lot better, and see that BD5/9 disks are really not the end products here. I wish I had an EX-1 to really appreciate how such things look after passing through the various conversions in workflow 1). as you and Steve have labelled it.

Workflow 2). with the penalty of mpeg2 to AVC is something I am altogether familiar with. For this reason alone, I am very glad to have switched to acquisition using an AVCHD camcorder, since my own experiences clearly reveal that AVCHD without transcoding obviously beats HDV mpeg2 to AVCHD using any software I have tried.

Exactly as you state, 16 mbit/sec AVC transcoded HDV originating at 25 Mbits/sec looks grossly worse to me. I atribute this clearly inferior result to the faulty logic / misinterpretation that since the 2 (mpeg2 and AVC/h.264) encoders differ by roughly 2 to one in their encoding efficiency, that a conclusion can thus be drawn that starting with 25Mbit/sec mpeg2 and encoding it to 16 Mbit/sec is somehow analogous to starting with raw, uncompressed video from a true sensor and A to D converter output and then comparing encodings done, one at 25 Mbit/sec mpeg2 and the other at 12.5 Mbit/sec AVC. This WOULD be the correct comparison. The key which is entirely missed is that ***RECOMPRESSION*** is an entirely different matter than singularly compressing one way or the other, even though it has been discussed and erroneously treated as if it were the same. There is no reason to presume that recompression of 25 Mbit/sec mpeg2 into any subsequent bit rate AVC transcoding will preserve the content, given the lossy and asymetrical processes in first expanding the GOPs back to isynchronous frames.


My interest in all of this is not entirely academic.

I have a very large collection of HDV and HD DVD material from the last several years which I now want to convert to be compatible with BluRay, and I do not want to use BluRay media and burners even though I have both here.

The key issue is my best coding stategy, and I would dearly love to make mpeg2 red laser disks to avoid recompression entirely. My best shot is, apparently, the TSRemux path you have provided, but I have made little headway. I'm going to give it another try to see what I am doing wrong, but I have yet to find a way to generate the BDMV output.

Thanks for your clarifications and very useful alternatives here Tom.

Larry

My best shot is, apparently, the TSRemux path you have provided, but I have made little headway. I'm going to give it another try to see what I am doing wrong, but I have yet to find a way to generate the BDMV output.
Larry

Ah-hah!!!!

I didn't say TSRemux! That's a different program. I've used it, and it doesn't work.

You need TSMuxer 1.8.4b. The names sound similar but they are different programs.

I will be very happy to help you with the workflow. It's not hard. Below are the important steps.

1.) You have to demux your HDV audio and video into separate elementary streams.
2.) Render the HDV audio to DD5.1, 48khz, 448kbps.
3.) The video stream is fine as it is, 25mbps 1440x1080, no rendering needed.
4.) TSMuxer1.8.4b will combine the above elementary streams, and output the BDMV folders.
5.) Burn the folders to BD5/9 with Nero Burning Rom using the following settings, DVD-ROM UDF 2.5, manual settings, no-multisession.

Feel free to ask questions, happy to help. You'll get there.