I think an experienced photojournalist might be able to pull off the multi-tasking of shooting photo and video without an assistant... I know of some who are doing this already with consumer HD camcorders.

More power to them then. But I still think it is a mistake. Rates are being squeezed as it is without doing twice as much work for even less money. I only hope they are charging accordingly.

Regardless, I think to purchase two cameras the same just to avoid learning is also a mistake. If you can use one camera you can generally use another after a couple of minutes of familiarisation.

Multi-tasking is one thing, but doing both 'well' is quite another. Could they, for example, produce stuff that is of the standard that is often posted in the Wedding video forum? If they are just getting clips to bung on a CD-ROM then perhaps it is fine.

But a fully fledged video?

It's a limitation of the camera, not the CF cards. From the press release:

"The EOS 5D Mark II will record video up to 4GB per clip or a maximum continuous movie capture time of 29 minutes and 59 seconds, whichever comes first. Depending on the level of detail in the scene, a 4GB memory card can record approximately 12 minutes of video at full HD resolution or approximately 24 minutes in standard definition."

In my opinion, they're confusing things a bit by referring to the capacity of a 4GB card in the sentence immediately following the statement about the 4GB clip limit.

Could it be the 4gb limit is a result of the FAT32 format?

I am a complete amateur in both video and photography so I mostly lurk this site to glean what tidbits I can. Been following along for at least 6 months now.

Since I am not a filmmaker the DSLR + video doesn't mean much to me at first. The big difference in regard to camcorders I haven't seen anyone really talk about is how the large sensor contributes to the ability to take HD video indoors and during the night with minimal lighting. All of the small sensor format camcorders anywhere close to the price of this or even the D90 don't seem anywhere near capable in terms of low light performance (based on D90 footage I see - who knows what the Canon footage will show).

That makes me interested in the DSLR + video revolution unfolding before our eyes. I want to take high quality nighttime/indoor HD video and DSLR seems the best way to go (not to mention the other benefits like shallow DOF,interchangeable high quality lens, etc.) for the price.

... I think to purchase two cameras the same just to avoid learning is also a mistake. I didn't say "just to avoid learning," but perhaps I should have stated "one model to learn" in a different way. If the goal behind purchasing gear is to expand business, the quickest way to do that and return a profit is to get up and running as quickly as possible. Having only one camera model to learn, and then to instruct assistants how to use, is much faster. A single camera model offers a convenience that's easier to embrace and an accessory path (batteries, chargers, etc.) that's lighter on the budget than two different camera models.

Just one question though. Who wants to take a stills camera to a video camera party?


This will revolutionize wildlife imaging with a flood of video. The only trick will be to get proper audio. Nature shows cover that up with a narrator.

Could it be the 4gb limit is a result of the FAT32 format?


An easy fix is to split the files into smaller files during recording. Sony is doing this on the EX1. I just hope Nikon allows you to set the size to something less than 1 GB to make the files more manageable in video editors.

I don't think the party is over... if you compare the new 5D MKII to the Canon flagship
1Ds MKIII, both being 21.1 m pixel, then the 5D actually is a better camera spec wise....

Canon wont let the 5D take away the 1Ds sales... There should be two more cameras
coming soon....

The 1D MkIII and the 1Ds MkIII will need to be upgraded also.... then we get to see
just what Canon has to offer...

I'm quite sure some people will learn to handle doing stills and video as part of a small team AND solo as well. This camera represents technical progress and a new avenue of opportunity for some.

Advances in technology are a double edged sword - they increase expectations as well as opportunities. Some of us can remember the cries of "impossible" when ENG crews of 1 reporter and 1 "everything else" first appeared. Impossible and undesirable as it seemed to many at that time, people are now doing events coverage, ENG and other work solo and handling the audio, video and lighting with great success. But of there is still a lot of work for more conventional crews, and the soundman, the boom operator, the mixer and the lighting director still exist along with camera operators and all the rest.

Some of the guys and gals on this list achieve the seemingly impossible at every wedding they cover or short film they make - doing things I would probably have said couldn't be done.

It also gives you more strobing and motion judder from inexperienced handling, and a more pronounced "jello effect" from the image wobble produced by rolling-shutter CMOS. So I think it's mostly a matter of trade-offs.

The question I have is, why not offer both? Why not have 30p and 24p as selectable HD video frame rates in this camera? I'm betting there will be a firmware hack for this sometime not too far down the road once the camera gets into the CHDK community's hands.

I am guessing that they offered 24p because the D90 camera couldn't handle 30p, thus spinning a technical limitation as an artistic feature. Almost all of the movies made with this camera will be seen on LCD computer screens or TV with 60 Hz refresh rates, so 24p can only add a lot of the stuttering judder for frame repeat/add or weird motion blur when converted to 25p/30p or 50p/60p.

Initial posts updated to include link to Canon Japan EOS 5D Mark II Special Site (http://cweb.canon.jp/camera/5dmark2/)

Is the sensor windowed when recording 1920x1080 video? Judging from the official video samples, it doesn't appear to be cropped.

I quite often set up a digital stills camera on a timelapse (350d) while I run around shooting with my broadcast camera. To be able to set up the new 5D on the same full frame timelapse is nice, but to also have the option of shooting it as a b camera or for background plates and so on, not to mention the classic 'CEO Headshot' is a really nice option to have.

I don't see it as an XDCAM replacement, but I do think that it will be nice to have the camera in the back of the truck...

Back to the topic, movie-enabled DSLRs are still cameras at heart and thus lack even basic video camera features, such as zebras, knee adjustment, etc.
Guess what the camera does have highlight alert which is like a blinking zebra but I'm not sure it translates to IRE values. But it does tell you when your going to blow the highlights out. Also I wonder if the exposure lattitude is different on this kind of chip as compared to a camcorder chip. Remember this chip is 1.42 inches x 1 inch. And each pixel site has it's own lens element with local 14-bit digital processing to help maximize the image quality. It will be fun to see how well it does in December 08 when it's available for sale.

Also this has real-time histograms in realtime.

What I find extremely interesting about this camera is that Canon is telegraphing quite clearly that they have all the next generation technical assets in place - especially the sensor and hardware codec, to meet the upcoming challenge of Scarlet and even perhaps higher up the food chain as well.

This sensor and 38(!) Mbps AVCHD codec may be appearing for the first time in a DSLR, but I would be shocked if they don't reappear in video camera form in the not to distant future.

Something(s) for NAB 2009 to steal a bit of Red Digitals thunder, perhaps?

Also this has real-time histograms in realtime.

Zebras still important but less crucial with real-time histograms. I'd like to see some improvements in zebras stripes: represent each display pixel with a color-coded luminence value. This would be like an audio level meter (green-yellow-red) but with more values in the 2D representation.

Now that LiveView is more than a novelty, I'd like to see more focusing aids such as a version of peaking: showing sharpest area of image instead of just above a certain level of sharpness. Another would be expanded view with picture in picture (PIP): The Expanded view would be the large part while the whole seen would be PIP.

FYI. Prolost agrees with those that think Canon fumbled by not including 24p:

ProLost: So Close Canon (http://prolost.blogspot.com/2008/09/so-close-canon.html)

That's a filmmaker's perspective so it's not surprising.

PDNPulse: Canon 5D Mark II Sample Video Clips (http://www.pdnpulse.com/2008/09/canon-5d-mark-i.html)

There are sample video clips from the 5dmII on Canon's Korean site. The link above is from PDN which has the links to the clips.

This can still be got over ebay from a Japanese store. However, its a 10 megapixel sensor on a 1/2.3" sensor. The pixel size will be pretty small with the DOF not much more than a HV20 or its siblings..
Canon's 10 megapixel SX1 IS shoots Full HD too - Engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/17/canons-10-megapixel-sx1-is-shoots-full-hd-too/)

So this one shoots Full HD too!

Judging from the official video samples, it doesn't appear to be cropped.

Okaaaaay. But that means it is scaled instead, with all the artifacts and dodgy processing involved in that process.

Either way, this isn't a free buffet at the Hilton with daughter Paris.

We need to learn more about how the camera really handles in some tests, but I see this camera as being a great tool for talking heads, internet, steadicam & greenscreen work inplace of using a Letus ect...

I own a 5D, so it is a no brainer for me to sell the 5D and get the mark II.

I will use video cameras when needed, but this is everything people buy 35mm adaptors for, but in a much more compact frame.

It is not going to cure all ills, but definately an interesting tool.

For those like myself who own "L" lenses, this is a great use for them.

Tim, please tell me you're from the UK and are using our typical droll humour?!

I too would rather buy a 5D MKII to use with my 4 L lenses than spend nearly twice as much on a Letus Ultimate and still be stuck using the lenses at a fixed aperture. If filming were my full time job, maybe I would make other choices. The new 5D could be a great tool for people who do both still photography and videography, especially nature and landscape work. I could see using the 5D MKII for stock nature photography and videography on the same trip, in a nice lightweight package. Good saleable stock footage is often in clips of 10 to 30 seconds anyway. If you were disciplined about your shots, the camera/card clip length limitations might not be such a big deal. This use of course is not the same as filming an event or making a feature film.

Pat

I too would rather buy a 5D MKII to use with my 4 L lenses than spend nearly twice as much on a Letus Ultimate and still be stuck using the lenses at a fixed aperture.
Pat

All of the newer Nikon lenses and many older ones do not include aperture rings. Most seem interested in using these lenses on their 35mm adapters at very wide apertures for dramatically-thin DOF, but setting a good zoom to f/2.8 to f/4 was more useful to me. That's in the range of a pro-level f/2.8 zoom, which is difficult to use without an aperture ring. How do you set the aperture on lenses that don't have an aperture ring?

You set the aperture while the lens is on the camera and the DOF preview button is depressed, and then take it off the camera.

Pat

You set the aperture while the lens is on the camera and the DOF preview button is depressed, and then take it off the camera.
Pat

Thanks, I'll give it a try. That helps with my anxiety in selling off my older lenses with aperture rings.

It seems like there is no manual exposure or shutter speed control. And it shoots at 30fps, not 29.97.

Tim, please tell me you're from the UK and are using our typical droll humour?!

Simon, you're going to have to explain as it is tough to get sarcasm over the internet.

If you're saying I am crazy, I don't understand your point.

People are putting these Letus things in front of an existing camera and lens and making Bazooka-like end products just to get shallow DOF.

The full-frame 5D II comes along and shoots 1080p with the capability to get that DOF with only the intended lenses, and there is some kind of problem with this?

So I can run sound to my Firepod, no big deal. This would be no different that a "normal" video camera on a tripod for a studio shoot, except you would probably have more dynamic range with the 5D MII.

That's all I am going to say until you can make some better points...

It seems like there is no manual exposure or shutter speed control.

If this is true, then all bets are off.

People are putting these Letus things in front of an existing camera and lens and making Bazooka-like end products just to get shallow DOF.

Yep. I think that is silly too.

The full-frame 5D II comes along and shoots 1080p with the capability to get that DOF with only the intended lenses

Does it specifically say that the DOF can be achieved in video mode? There doesn't seem to be any definitive answer as to how it is making 1080 video. If it is scaling the picture, then that right there is a red flag because full frame stills are a completely different aspect ratio to 16:9 video. So it has to be cropping in some way.

This is going to be very limited, ergonomically and control wise.

This is going to be very limited, ergonomically and control wise.

Like Simon says, this is going to be of very limited use for serious video work.

It may be great for certain specific applications such as timelapse or where a very small camera is required or a specialist lens is used. Maybe even low light stuff... we'll have to wait and see.

Simon, from the sample clips there doesn't appear to be much cropping of the sensor. For example, the 15mm wide angle shot is VERY wide. If it was cropped down you would obviously get a far narrower field of view.

I am tempted to buy one of these because although it is of limited use as an HD camera, it is really just a bonus over what will certainly be a great stills camera

Simon, from the sample clips there doesn't appear to be much cropping of the sensor.

Horizontally or vertically there must be cropping somewhere because the 16:9 aspect is totally different to full frame.

I'd also be worried about the quality of in-camera scaling to achieve 1920x1080.

Horizontally or vertically there must be cropping somewhere because the 16:9 aspect is totally different to full frame.


Granted, there has to be some cropping but it doesn't appear to be using a windowed method like Red does at 2K.

The clips I've seen look pretty good from an image quality standpoint, and the Digic chips have had to scale to smaller resolutions forever since they offer the ability to save smaller resolution files. Something I read said that it had the ability to show you a mask of what 16x9 would be on the live view LCD, which to me means that they're just discarding the top and bottom of the sensor. Almost all of the sensors in video cameras these days natively shoot at a higher resolution and then sub-sample down. Any camera that can take higher resolution stills than 1440x920 is going to be scaling the image output down to that res for video. I would guess that the image quality is going to blow away anything but the $4k and up dedicated video hardware, and at low light it's probably going to be better than anything under $8k, simply due to the size of the sensor. Maybe Nikon will come out with something that directly competes and then we'll have an Apples to Apples comparison. I'm not heavily invested in Canon lenses yet, and competition can't be anything but good for us.

The ergonomics are going to be a little strange, but once you rig it up to a larger lcd for focusing and an external mic, you might as well put the whole thing on a shoulder brace.

I've been pondering a replacement for my aging Rebel XT, and this looks like it'll be it, assuming I can scrounge it together and convince the wife to let me spend it. I've always wanted a full frame SLR, and the ability to shoot really high quality video means that buying an HV30 would just be a waste. I'd rather put that $800 towards a really good piece of L glass.

There is a lot yet to be known about this feature.

I called Canon support and a tech told me they don't even have a sample yet, so they don't even know yet.

The biggest thing to me is whether or not Canon intended this to be used for some high end results or just a marketing ploy.

We all would want full resolution, live feed out the HDMI and full manual control, but they might have had a different idea.

Canon's been pretty good about adding features to it's high end cameras with firmware updates. We'll see if that crosses over to video features. Also, apparently nobody's been able to play with the video feature in the previews they've done, so they may still be working on finalizing that feature. It's probably going to be at least a month before we really know how it's all going to work.

although the 5dkII has yet to be tested, but Nikon's video effort isn't exactly tough to beat. why? it's crap.

Video of Nikon D90 Wobble Test - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting (http://s477.photobucket.com/albums/rr134/jamesmel9/?action=view&current=DSC_0012.flv)

I have just posted a short video of the Canon 5D mk II here

Canon EOS 5D Mk II (http://www.photo-i.co.uk/video/Canon-5D/Canon5D.html)

There's a lot of opinion around the web that this is just a toy add on for the consumer.
Anyone familiar with the 35mm adapter industry that's developed over the last several years understands the potential from that perspective, but the fact that Canon included a stereo audio in pretty much shoots that concept down. If Canon just saw it as a cute add on they would leave it with the little mono mic that it has. I doubt that they envision soccer moms and b-day party shooters bringing a sound man along with a boom and field mixer.

I have just posted a short video of the Canon 5D mk II here

Canon EOS 5D Mk II (http://www.photo-i.co.uk/video/Canon-5D/Canon5D.html)

Thanks for your link Vincent.

Could I ask (since you have spent time with the camera) about some of the video features?

The video touches upon this, can one use manual control while shooting in the video mode?

Does the HDMI output a live signal for external monitoring?

Does the video mode use the entire sensor(or most of it) while recording?

Thank you

although the 5dkII has yet to be tested, but Nikon's video effort isn't exactly tough to beat. why? it's crap.

Video of Nikon D90 Wobble Test - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting (http://s477.photobucket.com/albums/rr134/jamesmel9/?action=view&current=DSC_0012.flv)

Crap indeed! Never seen such a bad wobble from any of my CMOS camcorder. Now it's destined to sit only on a tripod. Hope Canon does better but could this be wishful thinking?

Wacharapong

I was checking in on the d90 thread wondering why it had gone so quiet... anyway
Interesting video Vincent.

one of the specs llisted on dpreview-

"New optional WFT-E4 WiFi / LAN / USB vertical grip"

I wonder would a device such as this allow us to transmit the 4gb video files wirelessly to a laptop immediately after each clip is written.

That could prove very useful.

If Canon just saw it as a cute add on they would leave it with the little mono mic that it has.And they would have put it on their low-end $700 Rebel XS, not their full-frame $2700 studio body.

If Canon were really competing with Nikon, they would have put HD video on their 50D, which is more evenly matched price-wise with the D90....
...indeed, and why use that HD video enabled 1.6x APS-C sensor to compete in the DSLR market when you could just drop one into a new XH/XL series camera with an EOS mount to compete in the video market?

We have Zeiss announcing their manual focus lenses for the EF mount being released soon.
Whether Canon intended it or not, they're positioned right now to make some game-changing decisions in the sub 5-10g video segment.

Thanks for your link Vincent.

Could I ask (since you have spent time with the camera) about some of the video features?

The video touches upon this, can one use manual control while shooting in the video mode?

Does the HDMI output a live signal for external monitoring?

Does the video mode use the entire sensor(or most of it) while recording?

Thank you

Tim,

I do not have any more information on the camera, the models being demonstrated were pre-production units, only one camera was actually taking pictures and that was the one Damien Lovegrove was using. I will be taking a closer look at this camera in due course.

I am getting the D90 in today and will do a full "Interactive Review" on this model.

Thanks for your reply.

Saw a highly compressed 5D MK II clip from Lisbon that was obviously shot handheld. There didn't appear to be any noticeable CMOS rolling shutter wobble. On the other hand, if you look at Canons clip of the geyser (Yellowstone), I think you can see the autoexposure adjusting for drifing clouds of steam and water, making the surrounding landscape brighter or darker in compensation.

Pat

Which raises perhaps the most salient question (for me anyway.) Is there some inherent reason that both Nikon and Canon have this pretty egregious professional shortcoming with the locked shutter/ISO issue?

I ran across a Canon marketing video in which they were getting feedback about the 5D MKII from professional still photographers and photojournalists. It seems pretty clear that at least one of the reasons they have included video is so that pro still photographers have a way to capture video content for web use. This is increasingly becoming a requirement for pro still photographers. Maybe the locked exposure is an attempt to keep things simple for that part of the market. If you take a look at some of the major still photography forums, there seem to be many photographers who have very little familiarity with video. Maybe these users will want to quickly capture 10 seconds of video while they are mainly concentrating on the technical aspects of still photography during a shoot.

Pat

Maybe the locked exposure is an attempt to keep things simple for that part of the market. If you take a look at some of the major still photography forums, there seem to be many photographers who have very little familiarity with video. Maybe these users will want to quickly capture 10 seconds of video while they are mainly concentrating on the technical aspects of still photography during a shoot.
Pat

You're probably correct. Look, I think we're a little harsh on the video. So far, both Canon and Nikon have provided the equivalent of what they provide on P&S cameras. Many DSLR users resist this new feature. Video users will wait for an entirely new set of features before using it. Very few video users will trade their primary camcorder for these DSLRs, so I can see why Canon and Nikon didn't delay the introduction of their 1.0 feature set. I bet 2.0 is under development. It may also be the case that given the size of the software, it may not be possible to keep both an SLR program and a robust camcorder program in the camera at one time. They may have to increase the internal memory size. Note that many prosumer P&S cameras and many video camcorders (notably every prosumer Sony) requires you to restart the camera to switch between Video Player and Camcorder modes. Personally, I've always found this to be a nuisance.

I am a film/video student at a local arts magnet school and am in the market for a dSLR and a video camera. However, I currently do not have the money to purchase both so I am looking for opinions on the new Canon dSLR, the 5D MarkII.

Does anyone know anything about the 5d MarkII's video capability. It claims to record 1920x1080@30p for up to 12min (4gb) at 38Mbits/sec. Based on my limited understanding of the video camera market, that is a higher bit rate than most HDV camcorders which record 80min at 25Mb/sec. Considering that it uses a CMOS sensor as opposed to the 3CCD sensor used in most prosumer video cameras, approximately what level of camcorder does it compare to? It records to .mov files which I am unfamiliar with, but they seem to be compatible with Premiere and FCP. Also, its interchangeable lens system and high iso performance should make it a very capable camera in the manual controls section. It has a 3.5mm mic input jack and since it records to CF cards, you would have no vibration/motor noise to deal with.

Sorry if this is in the wrong section.

Thanks

The camera is too new for all of the specs to be known yet.

I am watching if it has live output through the HDMI connector for video previewing and also if the camera can be used in full manual mode instead of auto iris ect... while shooting video.

If these two things are good, then I think it could be a real possibility.

But this type of camera will be best used in a "film" type production environment where there is separate sound and the camera itself is moved instead of panning & tilting.

Focus may be a challenge as SLR lenses don't have the support gear that the video world has for following motion.

But the image quality should be very nice.

Whilst sitting on a long train journey in China on a trip testing a Nikon D90 I've been able to establish the following about the 5DmkII:

As already noted it has no specific ISO or shutter speed lock in movie mode, but it does tell you the shutter speed it's using. You can use the AE lock button to lock exposure in movie mode so that's some form of control at least, but not much. This will lock the shutter speed, ISO and aperture.

Now the good part, movie mode will work with Nikon lenses on adapters (like the 16-9.net ones), so yes, you can use manual aperture lenses for aperture control when shooting movies after locking shutter speed and ISO.

The audio levels are auto only, the jack plug should work with a beachtek though.

Movies use H264 compression, shoots to .mov. Max length of 29min 59secs or 4GB of data. I think any more than that and it legally has to be called a video camera. Apparantly there is little or no rolling shutter effect like the D90.

Sorry if any of this is old news.

Dan