Please help, I have a Sony SR1 and a 140 Gigs worth of footage on my laptop that I can not burn as AVCHD DVD disks as advertised. The Picture Motion Browser software gives me a message the the file formats are not supported even though they are the M2TS files that were imported using the software directly from the camcorder. I also purchased Sony Vegas 8 Platinum and find it very complex to use. I'm pretty good with computers in general but I can't seem to figure this software out. It does not seem to provide an option to burn an AVCHD disk. Am I missing something? I also purchased a cheaper software called MAGIX Movie edit pro 14 which advertises to be user friendly and it does not even recognize the files!!

All I really want to do is burn disks that will play in my PS3 with perhaps some menus and titles. Can anyone suggest the easiest way to do this. I have a 1 year old son (hence the reason for buying the camera) and little time to call customer support and do research. I love the high def footage, but need to get it onto DVD. I backed everthing up to and external drive and to CDs which I can play on the PS3 but have to select each clip one at a time.

Help for this AVCHD newbie would be most appreciated!!!

Jamie,

There has been quite a bit of discussion on this forum in recent days regarding how to burn AVCHD disks which play hi def content on the PS3 and other BluRay players. You might want to have a look at them, including:

Creating a DVD that displays in Hi Def on a Blu-Ray player - The Digital Video Information Network (http://www.dvinfo.net//conf/showthread.php?t=128416)

Despite claims by Magix regarding AVCHD support, they DO NOT allow direct use of AVCHD content, since it has to be converted first to another (mpeg2) format before the program will even recognize it. On top of that, it can NOT make AVCHD disks whatsoever. I have complained directly to them on this specific matter, and they deleted my specific complaint as well as the complaints of others on the same topic from their user support website. They are shameful in my personal opinion in the way they mislead in their ads.

Vegas does make AVCHD disk, but unfortunately transcodes everything, taking a lot of time and degrading the AVCHD content in the process. They cannot make menued disks so you merely can play a single file with no navigation whatsoever. To put it mildly this is not what a person expects from the co-inventors of AVCHD for several hundred dollars cost.......

Take a look at this forum and review other peoples comments regarding AVCHD disks to see some of the other options. You should be pleased to find that there are several low cost alernatives which make superb menued AVCHD disks very quickly and play beautifully on the PS3 and other players.

If you are looking for additional help, I and others here should be able to provide more assistance.

Best,

Larry


(Visited Lundy's Lane many dozens of times......very near by here...)

Larry (and Jamie):

After rebate, the net price for a boxed Nero Ultra 8 is $35.00 (suggesting Ultra 9 on the way?) at newegg.

Placed my order tonight.

I will report back...after following Larry's concise suggestions, directions and recommendations.

Great price! Please update here once you get a chance to check it out Mark. Remember to enlarge the Nero Vision window to full screen to see all of the controls / buttons and other features well. They use a default window size which is quite small, and I went for a while without increasing it, making it a little more difficult to use.

Best,
Larry

If you want an AVCHD disk, you need an AVCHD disk player. DVD by definition can not contain AVCHD, unless as DVD ROM content for use on PC's.

AVCHD DVD does not exist and is a contradictio interminis. Like a bicycle without wheels.

The Sony Motion Browser software should make a AVCHD disc for you that will play in a PS3. I think that the basic software hasn't changed much from your SR1 to my SR11. The way I use it is to select the first picon I want in the video from the calendar view, click on the disc icon at the top of the window, select AVCHD disc. Then a window will open with just that one file in it. Then you can drag and drop the other files that you want to use in the disc. On a slow computer just drag one at a time until the picon appears in the Disc creation window. Place a disc in your burner and the amount used will appear in the bottom right of the window. I tend not to place too much on a disc, no more than 20 mins. Then chose menu layout and let the software do the rest.
You can just make a data disc with Nero and play files one at a time on the PS3 or use Nero Vision as descibed.
Ron Evans

Jamie, this POS which is PMB also doesn't work for me. I have a SR11 and I updated PMB to last patch, but this program is buggy as hell, if you have other codecs (like ffdshow) it gives you the message that file format is not supported. It works for some lucky guys (like Ron), but I can't use it, no matter what I done (well, I don't want to reinstall my OS for this POS).

So my advice is to use other programs, like Nero, please look after Larry's advice on this.
Harm, please read more on this forum about AVCHD and DVD, because it is very possible to use a DVD to store AVCHD on it...

Harm, please read more on this forum about AVCHD and DVD, because it is very possible to use a DVD to store AVCHD on it...

That is what I said. Or do you not understand DVD ROM content?

Just to clarify...

AVCHD high definition disks are burned with a red laser onto blank DVD-R, DVD+R, single or dual layer, or re-writable blank media using the AVCHD format rather than the "DVD-Video" formnt standard which is used for standard definition disks. These red-laser AVCHD disks play high definition content in both computers as well as some but not all BluRay set-top players as well as the Sony Playstation 3 game console.

Apparently the AVCHD standard actually includes the use of smaller "miniDVD" disks to be used directly for recording in some AVCHD mini-DVD-based camcorders like the Panasonic HDC-DX1.


Larry

I also purchased Sony Vegas 8 Platinum and find it very complex to use. I'm pretty good with computers in general but I can't seem to figure this software out.

When Larry and were having our "debate: we both agreed Vegas 8 doesn't provide the SPEED you may want. Which is why he recommends Nero 8.

I'm now working with Vegas Movie 9 Platinum ($85) and the much cheaper feature reduced version of Vegas 8 is far less complicated to learn and use than Vegas 8 Pro. It also provides support for Canon.

Here's the overview:

Vegas was designed for audio editors with video added in.

Avid Medic Composer was designed for film editors with video added in.

Premiere and FCP were designed day 1 as video editors. All other editors are essentially versions of the very first version of Premier -- like 1995.

Adobe then re-designed Premiere to be a near clone of FCP on the outside. Bad move if you don't like FCP. But the internals are still screwed up which is why no AVCHD support and no writing HDV back to tape. I expect this all to get fixed someday, but until then Vegas 9 and Nero 8 are the cheapest way to edit AVCHD, write an AVCHD disc, and get good quality, and have a reliable product.

So if Nero 8 doesn't work for you, see if you can switch to Vegas 9 which has built in Wizards that help you edit.

Thanks to Larry and others for all the information and discussion. Feel free to keep it coming. In the meantime I will give Nero a try as suggested.

Really appreciate the advice and will come back to this forum often.

AVCHD plays on the PS3 from a data disk or usb jump drive if you do nothing more than just copy the file(s) onto the media. No menus this way of course, but no authoring required either.

When Larry and were having our "debate: we both agreed Vegas 8 doesn't provide the SPEED you may want. Which is why he recommends Nero 8.

I'm now working with Vegas Movie 9 Platinum ($85) and the much cheaper feature reduced version of Vegas 8 is far less complicated to learn and use than Vegas 8 Pro. It also provides support for Canon.

Here's the overview:

Vegas was designed for audio editors with video added in.

Avid Medic Composer was designed for film editors with video added in.

Premiere and FCP were designed day 1 as video editors. All other editors are essentially versions of the very first version of Premier -- like 1995.

Adobe then re-designed Premiere to be a near clone of FCP on the outside. Bad move if you don't like FCP. But the internals are still screwed up which is why no AVCHD support and no writing HDV back to tape. I expect this all to get fixed someday, but until then Vegas 9 and Nero 8 are the cheapest way to edit AVCHD, write an AVCHD disc, and get good quality, and have a reliable product.

So if Nero 8 doesn't work for you, see if you can switch to Vegas 9 which has built in Wizards that help you edit.

Steve,

I really have no desire to begin this debate once again, but I really cannot remain silent on what is a continuing flow of misinformation which causes a lot of unnecesary confusion.

It is my opinion based on installing and using the new version 9 of Sony Vegas Movie Platinum that 2 extremely basic and extremely important issues are being entirely overlooked by you when you recommend this product for AVCHD disk creation:

Nowhere does Sony claim or advertise that it can produce AVCHD disks, and my inspection of the Help Files, the program itself, and Sony's detailed description of this product on their web site make absolutely no reference to AVCHD disks. This program can ONLY, I repeat ONLY, edit AVCHD and NOT make AVCHD disks.

Secondly, and this is another big big issue....... Sony makes no claims to offer anything but support for "Sony AVCHD" format, and you and I both know that Canon uses a different format which, to this day, is not even entirely supported in Sony's much more expensive Vegas 8.0c, even in their latest version released only days ago.

As I stated in the prior thread, Sony is NOT an alternative for those wishing to make AVCHD disks in my opinion. This assertion is true both for their cheap $85 Movie Studio program as well as their $300 Vegas / DVD Architect suite, which I use here all the time for HDV.


Sony STILL SLOWLY RE-RENDERS everything, cannot support the newer higher bitrate AVCHD above 16 Mbit/sec at all and thus makes all recent Canon, Panononic, and other higher bit rate camcorder content forced to be re-rendered at a lesser rate if it can import it in the first place. The Sony 16 Mbit content is also always re-rendered, even though several of the other NLE software developers have found a way to avoid this re-rendering entirely. The resulting output looks softer and the colors look a bit more faded.

I continue to see absolutely no good basis to recommend Sony software, either Movie Studio or Vegas, for AVCHD applications, unless someone wants to use a Sony 16 Mbit/sec or lower AVCHD camcorder to make transcoded BluRay disks.

Finally, for the record, Vegas 8.0C DOES make AVCHD disks from the timeline, totally re-rendered AVCHD disks, slowwwwly, and these have no means of navigation since menus are NOT SUPPORTED either. For those who want to merely see their camcorder clips on a Playstation, there is no advantage to using Sony Vegas since you can, as others have pointed out, merely copy the raw clips onto a DVD and play them directly without waiting for all the re-rendering and suffering the quality loss. Therefore, Sony Vegas 8 AVCHD disks are, in my opinion, essentially useless, without menus, navigation, and with degraded quality.

Larry

That is what I said. Or do you not understand DVD ROM content?

Well, maybe it was a misunderstanding from both. Of course DVD-Video format can't have AVCHD streams, of course you can put AVCHD streams in data mode on a DVD media, but you can play in a BR player (well, sort of AVCHD player).
I'm sorry for my assumption, but when I see that ,,AVCHD DVD does not exist and is a contradictio interminis" I thought you sayed it's not possible to put AVCHD on DVD media... many people use their HD camcorders only to make SD DVD instead AVCHD DVD...

Sony STILL SLOWLY RE-RENDERS everything, cannot support the newer higher bitrate AVCHD above 16 Mbit/sec at all and thus makes all recent Canon, Panononic, and other higher bit rate camcorder content forced to be re-rendered at a lesser rate if it can import it in the first place.



I'll only deal with a one of issue at this time:

Once you color correct a clip -- no matter the NLE -- you have to re-encode this clip upon export. Since I color correct most every clip -- I expect to EVERY clip will need to be re-encoded.

Any graphics or pix must be re-encoded. Every transition must be re-encoded. Any title must be re-encode. Any video filter must be re-encoded.

Therefore, by the time one creates a movie -- most every clip has to re-encoded!

So there is no value to Smart GOP splicing because it will function for only a few clips. Or, put another way, I would not choose an NLE based upon this feature.

PS 1: Look for my story on Smart GOP Splicing in a fall issue of Broadcast Engineering.

PS 2: Shipping AVCHD camcorders are 16/17Mbps which can be imported by Vegas 9. We'll see what happens when the new camcorders ship.

PS 3: The AVCHD specification for recording to SD is 24Mbps, MAX. The AVCHD specification for data-rate to red-laser DVD is 18Mbps, MAX.

This is why Canon warns that if you burn 24Mbps to DVD it can only be played in their DVD burner. Yes -- some other BD players MAY play your disk, but if they don't -- it's your problem.

Which is why it simply makes sense to burn BD discs if you REALLY care about quality.

Steve,

Since the original post in this thread once again is clearly looking for a way to burn AVCHD disks, and not BluRay, I will not spend a lot of time debating the relative merits of each. I will say, however, that my own experience with burning BluRay disks using AVCHD content has not, in any way, achieved your claim: "burn BD if you really care about quality". Entirely to the contrary, all of the BD disks I have burned from Vegas, Final Cut, or any of my other NLE programs, have always looked transcoded and noticeably degraded. If you are claiming that uncompressing an h.264 format AVCHD file then resampling and recompressing it into an mpeg2 file can somehow improve the appearance of the content, I can only guess that you have either never done it yourself, or you have a poor monitor which does not reveal the differences. Resampling a very lossy signal and transforming it into another compressed format will degrade it, and does not and will not improve it.

It's true that color correction and other filtering will force recompression, but not all of us color correct every clip as you apprently do. I personally rely on the camera to achieve most color balance and prefer to use the footage intact.

Since the topic of data rate has again come up, I ask you specifically to please present evidence where your claim is based that "The AVCHD specification for data-rate to red-laser DVD is 18Mbps, MAX". As I have stated in an earlier thread, such has not been my experience whatsoever. Please show me the link for your citation / claim.

The other warning / limitation you claim is also one I have never seen stated anywhere other than in your posts: "Canon warns that if you burn 24Mbps to DVD it can only be played in their DVD burner". This is your opinion, and not Canon specs.

I have included the Canon DW-100 AVCHD burner's 30 page Owner's Manual in the link below. No place in this manual or in any other Canon specification I have searched is there any such limitation or restriction posted.

http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/280/280DW100.PDF

Where does your claim come from?????????

We have recently "agreed to disagree" so there is no point in persuading you personally that there is any way other than transcoded BluRay output for AVCHD, and indeed Sony may be the right software if you take this approach.

The original poster, me, and a lot of other readers here feel just the opposite, and want to use low cost ($29) red laser burners, 20 cent DVD blanks and AVCHD format disks if possible. We don't want to use $300 burners, $15 blanks, or spend hours transcoding, especially if it compromises quality.

At risk of stating the obvious in a brutally blunt way, this forum, as chartered by the web site founder, is titled : "AVCHD Format Discussion - Inexpensive High Definition H.264 encoding to DVD, Hard Disc or SD Card."

You should really take note of the words "inexpensive", "H.264", and "AVCHD" and strongly resist the urge to offer expensive, BluRay, mpeg2-encoded solutions to those who post on this forum such questions as this particular thread, "Burning AVCHD Disks".

If the poster had asked: "How do I make BluRay disks with my AVCHD content" then perhaps the Sony recommendation would make sense. Since Sony Vegas Movie Studio Platinum can't even author AVCHD disks whatsoever, I hardly find it a suitable or appropriate recommendation. Hence my re-awakening of this debate.

Larry

1) See attached pix for the specs for AVCHD. This chart was published widely in Japan and later in the USA.

2) Canon Japan has a new posting on MXP (24Mbps) mode, the DW-100, and AVCHD compatibility"

"Our company home page and the digital video camera comprehensive catalog (2008 July edition) page 6 page /11 page /13 page /18 page /24 placing on page /28, and page 7 of saddle stitch,

the MXP mode “of iVIS HF11” “iVIS HG21” (approximately 24Mbps) with the image which is recorded, at DW-100 we guided [to] the effect which is retention possible,

but the function where as for the disk which is retained because there is NO compatibility of the equipment of AVCHD standard

correspondence of marketing, that it is not unable to

cause confusion to the customer, it judges, uses DW-100 and retains the image of MXP mode in the disk faultTo make on-board. Doing to apologize, we correct.

Furthermore, as for the image which is recorded with MXP mode, to the software “ImageMixer 3 SE which” belongs “iVIS HF11” “iVIS HG21” is used, it is retention possible in the hard disk of the blue ray disk and the personal computer.

The product catalog which presently it is open is something of the correction being completed.

3) This long statement replaces the simple statement I read and posted here a month ago.

4) The current materials on the DW-100 do not include information on MXP, so that's the reason you didn't find any limiting statement. See photo of the manual -- you'll see it is PRE MXP.

Steve,

Your attachment and citation is for a small 8 cm "mini-DVD" of the type used inside a (very) few DVD-based AVCHD camcorders such as the one I cited earlier (the Panasonic HDC-DV1). Most AVCHD camcorders do not use an internal DVD recorder, but rather use either a hard disk or solid state memory / flash cards, all of which are not at all limited by write speeds like a mini-DVD drive.

(In fact, my TX-1 Canon HD camera, which uses relatively uncompressed MJPEG HD video, uses a Class 6 flash memory card which is several times faster than an AVCHD camcorder ever could write or read.) Hard-disk based AVCHD camcorders are not limited in this 18 Mbit/sec manner either.

This is *****not a***** spec for an AVCHD of the standard 12 cm size, the type produced by conventional DVD burners. It is a mini-DVD recording spec for 8 cm disks which are inherently slower.

Clearly AVCHD camcorders already announced at 24 Mbits/sec would entirely violate this spec if it were, as you had indicated, a spec for AVCHD itself.

Also note that the "spec" page you attached clearly shows an "approximate" symbol, which engineers use all the time, which looks like this squiggle " ~ ", indicating that even the 8 cm camcorder mini-DVD recording spec is not fixed at 18 Mbits/sec, but instead is approximate.

Larry

The " ~ " means "roughly similar" which is the correct statement because the recording is VBR. It does not mean you are free to burn at any rate you want. See how Panasonic describes its ~21Mbps.

HOWEVER, there has been a revision to the AVCHD specs -- although it still doesn't specifically mention 12cm DVDs.

"The two companies have decided to include memory cards (SD Memory Card and Memory Stick) and hard disk drives as applicable recording media of the format in addition to previously-announced 8cm DVD. This is for the purpose of broadening the range of applicable media, thereby allowing wide variety of products to be developed by various manufacturers. The new specification was defined as “AVCHD” format Version 1.0."

AVCHD INFORMATION WEB SITE (http://www.avchd-info.org/press/20060713.html)

This clearly indicates the SIZE of the DVD had nothing at all to do with the 18Mbps limit. In the new spec. every media SHOULD support 24Mbps and every BD player SHOULD be able to play 24Mbps. Should doesn't mean will. :)

However, Smart GOP editors will get you 24Mbps ONLY IF you own a new Canon. And, right now it looks like the old limit of 18Mbps is the maximum one can choose with other burning software. Hopefully that limit will be raised to 24Mbps ASAP.

Steve,

The "~" can indeed be used in geometry to represent similarity, but its common interpretation to engineers is to mean "approximately", and both essentially mean the same thing in the context of our discussion, namely, that 18 Nbit/sec is not a hard limit. I entirely agree that it does not grant any permission to record at any arbitrary rate you wish, and such was never my claim.

If you are arguing that the brief period of finalization of the basic ADVHD spec between May and July of 2006 is the foundation of your claimed 18 Mbit/sec AVCHD upper limit, and that an (apoproximately) 18 Mbit/sec camcorder recording media limit existed for those 2 months until the actual "Version 1" specification was released in July 2006, I will agree entirely. Isn't it then ridiculous to cite 18 Mbit/sec limits presently? Particularly since the stated limit was only imposed on 8 cm camera recording media? As I stated in an earlier thread, I easily burn and then smoothly play 24 Mbit/sec AVCHD disks here using AVCHD recorded content.

Larry

I am adding this postscript to my original message since I have spent some time today seeing where the breaking point lies for the AVC codec and red laser playback on one of my BluRay players. By using TMPGEnc Xpress 4 latest version with 1920 by 1080 AVC output and compliant audio, and using very high complexity source material, mostly particle generated 3D mixed with HD video, I produced h.264 AVC files with both 26 and 40 Mbit/sec average bit rates (1 pass VBR). The Sony played back the 26 Mbit/sec content without any stress, but the 40 Mbit/sec content brought the playback to its knees. I will need to make some additional test files at intervening rates (around 32 and 36) to see if I can more precisely determine where the player saturates. I hope to do so later this week. (I was pleasently surprised to see my quadcore Dell play back the 40 Mbit/sec content with no apparent strain whatsoever.)

Keep up the good work Larry. In the mpeg2 realm, the PS3 plays back 30mbps average from red laser fine. Take it up to 35mbps average and it plays about a minute before it stutters and staggers. You can pause it, and resume with smooth video for another minute.

I've seen higher bitrate numbers displayed from BD media so there probably is some wisdom in that.

I shoot with the Sony EX1, so the format is XDCAM-EX long gop VBR mpeg2 at native 35mbps. The PS3 won't play this natively for long without stuttering from red laser media. I don't have a BD burner, so when I say I've seen higher bitrates it's from commercial Blu-ray content in AVC or VC1.

I render it in Vegas using the BD template, which is vbr 25mbps average, 30mbps peak, 20mbps minimum. The PS3 plays that perfectly from red laser single or dual layer media. There's not a noticeable degradation from the 1st generation. The rendering proceeds at 2.5-5.0x the realtime, in other words 10 minutes could take up to 50 minutes. I only use Vegas to get that 1st generation render, thereafter use Womble MPEG Video Wizard to cut/splice assemble the clips because it smart renders only around the transitions, or no rendering at all for simple edits. It's extremely fast and easy, and no generational loss.

TSMuxer 1.84 is a freeware utility that muxes BDMV compliant video and audio streams inside an AVCHD wrapper that autoplays from red laser media with chapter stops and 5.1 audio. In other words, it plays back like a video disk, not a data disk.

I don't believe the PS3 can playback AVCHD authored menus. Is that your experience?

I've been doing HD DVD and Blu-ray hybrid authoring for some time. It's pretty straightforward, the HD DVD was easy to make nice playable menus, the Blu-ray has an advantage that I can author 24p for native playback on HDTV monitors that support 1080p24 playback.

I don't believe the PS3 can playback AVCHD authored menus. Is that your experience?I've had success with AVCHD authored menus and my friend's PS3 created by Pinnacle Studio 12.

Thanks for the replies Tom and Phil, and for the encouraging words.

Regarding menus, the Playstation 3 does complete menus on AVCHD as will my other 2 BluRay players. By this I mean that all menus can be animated, and the transitions from menu to menu or menu to clip, or clip to menu can also be animated, just the same as a conventional commercial DVD.

Of all the programs I own to author AVCHD, the ONLY one, believe it or not, which can do all of the above is Nero Vision, which is the only one to offer the transitions in the menu structure. The other programs which do menued AVCHDs are Power Director 7, Pinnacle 12, Total Media Extreme, and Ulead Video Studio 11.5. I do not own the latest Adobe Encore but it may possibly do motion / animated menus as well. Sony (ironically) does not support any menus whatsoever, and Ulead Movie Factory does very basic non-motion menus. The fact that Nero Vision has the complete set of many transitions in their AVCHD menu design is yet another example of why I push back so aggresively when somebody who has never used it calls it a "splicing program".

I now have confirmed that 35 MB/sec is too high for playback but 30 is fine, and the tipping point is somewhere in between. Since the playback even at 35 Mbits/sec is still working for quite a while before freezing, I think it is safe to conclude that the playback decoder can handle the bit rate as can the optical sensor and drive servo and other electronics including the checksum hardware. My opinion is that the freeze / stutter is when a buffer is being filled faster by the playback optics/electronics than it can be emptied by the decoder, and thus the playback temporarikly works fine while the buffer is filling but then stalls when the buffer size is exceeded.

It is therefore not surprising that some deluxe h.264 encoders such as the one with DiVX allow buffer size specification in the encoded file, but unfortunately such choices for the user do not exist within my high performance h.264 TMPGEnc encoder. My guess is that a smaller buffer size which is adequate for holding, let's say, 2 seconds of 25 Mbit/sec data, (roughly 6 Mbytes in size), gets filled up in 1.5 seconds with the really high data rates I am attempting, and the playback decoder just can't unload the buffer fast enough. Over 10 or 20 seconds, the buffer begins to overflow, the decoder begins to stutter, and then eventually freezes when there is no further buffer writes possible. This is classical digital signal processing behavior under these conditions. There are also other theories and explanations as to what the failure mechanism is, related to the drive servo and optics, but these are a little more improbable.

I am still anxious to hear back from the original poster, Jamie, and possibly others regarding their Nero Vision experiences.

Larry

Larry,
Just a few questions.

1.) What is your source for the 35mbps AVCHD?

2.) Does Nero Vision force a re-encode of compliant AVCHD?

3.) If no to #2, what are the parameters for compliant AVCHD?

4.) If yes to #2, will it make a quality transcode from mpeg2 to AVCHD?

5.) Can Nero Vision do all this on red laser media?

6.) And lastly (many thanks), will the Nero Vision authored AVCHD disk support 5.1 channel audio?

Animated menus is not something I would use, but it is a unique capability. Seems the trial version of Nero Vision 5 leaves-out all the HD stuff -- so a couple of questions.

1) The Nero docs talk about BDAV. Are you able to get BDMV?

2) Tom mentions his need for 24p. MovieFactory does not support 24p -- does Nero support 24p to AVCHD and/or BD?

3) Does Nero support 720p30, 720p50, 720p60 to AVCHD and/or BD?

4) Tom asks where you got 35Mbps source. My next questions are related:

A) Can you make a "3XDVD"? This is true BD -- including the option to use MPEG-2 -- but burned to a red-laser DVD?

B) When you make a BD and/or "3XDVD" -- can you you choose the encoder: either H.264 and MPEG-2?

C) When you make a BD and/or "3XDVD" -- can you you set the data rate or only choose from Nero's list? What is the maximum?

D) When you burn an AVCHD disc -- can you you set the data rate or only choose from Nero's list? What is the maximum?

I render it in Vegas using the BD template, which is vbr 25mbps average, 30mbps peak, 20mbps minimum. The PS3 plays that perfectly from red laser single or dual layer media.

Are you using the Burn-to-BD option?

The file structure created by this option is different than the file structure on an AVCHD disc. (You have a BDMV folder and a CERTIFICATE folder in the ROOT.) Which means you are creating a "3XDVD" media.

Are you using MPEG-2 or AVC?

Are you using LPCM or AC3?

Stereo or 5.1?

Are you using the Burn-to-BD option?

The file structure created by this option is different than the file structure on an AVCHD disc. (You have a BDMV folder and a CERTIFICATE folder in the ROOT.) Which means you are creating a "3XDVD" media.

Are you using MPEG-2 or AVC?

Are you using LPCM or AC3?

Stereo or 5.1?

I'm doing mpeg-2, AC3, 5.1, on DVD5/9 media with chapter stops, no menus. The process below works equally well for HDV or XDCAM.

Use the "Render As" option to make an .m2v elementary video stream. It takes two steps, first render the video, and then render the audio elementary stream. You have to do this in two steps because the template doesn't combine the right audio formats for BDMV.

Choose the Main Concept codec and the appropriate Blu-ray template. If you don't modify the template, you can author using Sony DVD Architect 5.0 without re-encoding, but trust me, it's not worth it. DVD-A5.0 just makes a data disk on red laser media. Skip it. You'll see below where TSMuxer makes a distinction in what it does.

Once you have the .m2v and .mpa elementary streams, TSMuxer 1.8.4b in one quick step will mux the streams, and author the following folders:

********************

BDMV
- AUXDATA
- BACKUP
- BDJO
- CLIPINF
- PLAYLIST
- BDJO
- CLIPINF
- JAR
- META
- PLAYLIST
- STREAM

CERTIFICATE
- BACKUP

****************************

Use Nero or ImgBurn to drag the folders and make a DVD-ROM UDF 2.5 disk with the following settings:

No multisession
manual settings
UDF 2.5

******************************

What sets TSMuxer 1.8.4b apart, is that it SPOOFs the player into thinking it's playing an AVCHD disk, but it's actually BDMV. BDMV is not spec'd to play from red laser media, but AVCHD is. That's why the hybrid autoplays like a video disk when inserted, instead of behaving like a data disk from DVDA5.0. (It's a free download. I can send you it, or just google it. It takes about 5 seconds, just a simple utility.)

There is a separate hack for putting menus on the disk I can point you to.

******************************

What has Larry and me and you running in different directions is that he's working with native AVCHD (I think), whereas I would be transcoding to it from mpeg-2. There would be no reason for him to go to mpeg-2, but AVCHD would be sensible for me to get more recording time onto cheap media.

*******************************

What Larry's workflow would bring to the table (if it worked for mpeg-2) is menus and more recording time.

******************************

I am following Steve's other thread about the different profiles for AVCHD as well. From what I can see with Vegas Pro 8.0, there are two AVCHD codecs to choose from, either Sony or Main Concept. The Sony flavor doesn't support 23.976, instead 24 fps. Neither codec supports 5.1 audio, and the profile is Main or Base, but not "High" (or 4.1/5.1). So it's fine for VIMEO, lacking for BD.

What has Larry and me and you running in different directions is that he's working with native AVCHD (I think), whereas I would be transcoding to it from mpeg-2. There would be no reason for him to go to mpeg-2, but AVCHD would be sensible for me to get more recording time onto cheap media.

Exactly! I've come to realize that the AVCHD forum includes those who shoot AVCHD and those who may, or may not, shoot it. Some of us are looking at AVCHD as a distribution codec.

After much I Googling -- I realize that you and I have no real need for AVCHD, the SONY/Panasonic format.

We need the second alternate red-laser form of BD called BD-9. (In fact, there is yet a third red-laser version of BD. It is for recording HDTV and auto transcodes ATSC MPEG-2 to H.264.) The nice thing about BD-9 is you can use any of the three BD codecs and at any rate up to a peak of 30 or 35 Mbps.

In the old HD DVD world we had 3XDVD, but no confusion with a camcorder format. In the BD world, it seems 3XDVD is far less known.

Unfortunately, from what I have read, is that the PS3 differs from other BD players on how they handle BD-9 discs. Supposedly, unless you build the discs right, the PS3 sees red-laser without an AVCHD file structure and assumes a data disc. This is why you use TSMuxer 1.8.4b.

I'm looking for a program that adds menus AND gives you the option to burn a red-laser BDMV disc the PS3 will accept that will also be accepted by the other BD players. And, does 24p and 720p. All this is needed by those who shoot with the EX1.

MF6+ works very well, but doesn't do 24p or 720p -- although there are ways to trick it. Nero I don't know.

Tom,

My replies are interleaved below:

____________________________
Larry,
Just a few questions.

1.) What is your source for the 35mbps AVCHD?

1920 by 1080 content from a composite of high action AVCHD and 3D graphics animations (mostly from a program called Bluff Titler with many tiny and fast moving particles) created as a 60 second AVI file and then rendered into very high rate h.264 and muxed audio with TMPGEnc Xpress 4 latest version.

2.) Does Nero Vision force a re-encode of compliant AVCHD?

No, and this is the major reason I find it so fast compared to other programs which cannot "Smart Render".

3.) If no to #2, what are the parameters for compliant AVCHD?

The exact same format as the camcorder-created .mts file, namely, 256kb/s Digital Dolby 2 channel audio, 1920 by 1080 29.97 fps Upper Field first interleaved AVC video, variable bitrate, with straight pass through as I have tested up to 24 Mbit/sec aggregate rate

4.) If yes to #2, will it make a quality transcode from mpeg2 to AVCHD?

N/A

5.) Can Nero Vision do all this on red laser media?

Absolutely. AVCHD disks are ONLY made with red laser blanks.

(BluRay disks with AVC/h.264 encoding are also supported, I believe, but I have not played with this specifically using Nero)

6.) And lastly (many thanks), will the Nero Vision authored AVCHD disk support 5.1 channel audio?

This last one is a bit tricky, since I have not seen any native AVCHD camcorders or content with with 5.1 to try. The Nero package certainly has both 5.1 encoder and decoder codecs, allows 5.1 editing in the companion program called Nero Wave Editor, and supports playback of 5.1 in the companion program Nero ShowTime. The safe answer to your question Tom is "No, I do not think so" but I am really not sure.

Glad to help...

Larry

Postscript:

I looked at the encoder options for audio and learned that the user actually can set 1 of 3 possible choices for audio encoding on the AVCHD disk:

2 channel (stereo) Digital Dolby
5.1 channel (surround) Digital Dolby
LPCM

I thus assume that a properly created source file with 5.1 could therefore be encoded on the AVCHD disk with DD5.1.

Same method of replies by interleaving below, Steve:

______________________________________________
Animated menus is not something I would use, but it is a unique capability. Seems the trial version of Nero Vision 5 leaves-out all the HD stuff -- so a couple of questions.

1) The Nero docs talk about BDAV. Are you able to get BDMV?

Absolutely!

2) Tom mentions his need for 24p. MovieFactory does not support 24p -- does Nero support 24p to AVCHD and/or BD?

I have not tried it, but a bit of digging in the program's settings, preferences, etc. does not show any evidence of user choice of 24p. It's possible but unlikely that it passes 24p (just as it passes 24 Mbit/sec bitrate) unannounced with no user over-ride or settings revealed yet fully intact.

3) Does Nero support 720p30, 720p50, 720p60 to AVCHD and/or BD?

Again, I see no evidence of it in any program customizing, nor do I see any claims to suggest that it is an option. When I take 720p video (MJPEG) from my Canon TX-1 and author AVCHD disks, it most certainly transcodes and then outputs a 1920 by 1080 format AVCHD disk so I am guessing it does not know how to make lesser resolution AVCHD disks. I don't have an AVCHD source here for 720p, and in fact can not recall ever seeing one advertised...........



4) Tom asks where you got 35Mbps source. My next questions are related:

A) Can you make a "3XDVD"? This is true BD -- including the option to use MPEG-2 -- but burned to a red-laser DVD?

Not with NeroVision.

B) When you make a BD can you you choose the encoder: either H.264 and MPEG-2?

Yes, for BD both encoders are provided / supported.

C) When you make a BD can you you set the data rate or only choose from Nero's list? What is the maximum?

The maximum BD rate allowed (in "Custom" setting) is 40 Mbits/sec, and can either be set to about a half dozen presets or to a manually entered value up to 40 Mbits/sec.

D) When you burn an AVCHD disc -- can you you set the data rate or only choose from Nero's list? What is the maximum?

The program allows you to optionally set the bitrate manually, with a maximum manual setting of 17 Mbits/sec. When the program burns AVCHDs in the default mode however, it passes the native video and audio bitrate of the source material through without any re-rendering despite the fact that the source video exceeds the maximum permissible 17 Mbit/sec manual setting. Thus, 24 Mbit/sec clips from the Canon HF11, for example, are found in the output BDMV>STREAMS folder as .mts files of the same size and bitrates as the original clips from the HF11. And as further confirmation, my players which show real time bitrates confirm that both the source as well as the actual AVCHD disk have exactly the same bitrates, nominally 24 Mbits/sec VBR.
__________________


One final and very important point to both Steve and Tom (and anyone else patient enough to follow this thread to this point):


I originally recommended Nero Vision as 3rd in my list of 4 or 5 AVCHD authoring programs to those seeking a method of producing AVCHD disks. I do not consider it to be the ultimate tool for video editing, nor do I even use it particularly for BluRay or HD DVD, both of which I have authored here for quite a long time using much better software for those formats. My familiarity and preference for Nero is highly focused on the thing it does so superbly well, so amazingly quickly, and at such a low cost, and that is to make AVCHD disks which look great, play great, and take extremely little time or cost.

Thus I have been reacting violently to the type of complex and fully featured programs which many (perhaps most) AVCHD camcorder buyers cannot easily afford or use and are really much better suited for the world of HDV, Blu Ray, HD DVD, etc.

Once Nero Vision is applied in the same general way that higher end NLEs are used, it not only fails by comparison in terms of feature set, but it too bogs down and makes this 3.0 GHz quadcore Penryn with SSE4 behave in very much the same way as Vegas, Edius, Final Cut, or any of the others run here, slooooow. If I am seeing 5X rendering times and sluggish scrubs on my timelines on this very high end Dell workstation, then my very first instinct when replying to people with laptops who are trying to handle AVCHD is to suggest a Nero type of solution since it fits them much better. Not only in performance, but most likely in cost. The AVCHD market may eventually become pro, but for the time being it is entirely dominated by lower end users and many amatuers who naively bought AVCHD without realizing the computer implications. Thus I have relatively little good experience on the BluRay end of using Nero since I much prefer DVD Architect 5 and several other BD methods for that format. This specific forum, reserved for AVCHD, is a place where such people should be able to get good, crisp AVCHD answers, IMHO.

-----------end of rant--------------

Hope I have answered any questions posed to me.

Larry

I read you loud and clear Larry. I appreciate the trouble you take to articulate in such detail.

I don't think you have anything to defend. There are no sacred cows and my ox has been gored many times. I have Vegas Pro 8.0(c) but express a fondness for simple editing utilities that save time and money.

I will give Nero Vision a try. You have to try things and experiment to get anywhere. You've just taken a lot of that burden off of us.

(In fact, there is yet a third red-laser version of BD. It is for recording HDTV and auto transcodes ATSC MPEG-2 to H.264.) The nice thing about BD-9 is you can use any of the three BD codecs and at any rate up to a peak of 30 or 35 Mbps.

YES!!! Bring it on!!!

I'm looking for a program that adds menus AND gives you the option to burn a red-laser BDMV disc the PS3 will accept that will also be accepted by the other BD players. And, does 24p and 720p. All this is needed by those who shoot with the EX1.

MF6+ works very well, but doesn't do 24p or 720p -- although there are ways to trick it. Nero I don't know.

MF6+ with the HD pack worked very well for me with HD DVD especially, and BD from HDV 1440 60i also works, but insists on rendering everything that comes full raster from the EX1.

I wonder if Nero Vision would natively pass a high bit rate AVCHD rendered by Vegas Pro 8.0(c) without re-encoding...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roper
The one issue I had with Vegas Pro 8.0(b) AVCHD is no support for 5.1 audio. Has that changed?

Tom,

Vegas Pro 8.0b had AVCHD template with DD 5.1 surround audio. You had to choose Sony AVC template, not MainConcept. The problem was that 8.0b only had template for 1440x1080. Now 8.0c added 1920x1080 AVCHD template.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roper
Could you take the Vegas Pro 8.0 AVCHD and have Nero Vision author that with menus? (No disrepect for your original .pdf menu hack...)

Yes, you can. Here is what Nero tells me at the final screen before compiling project:

Audio format:Automatic
Sample format:Automatic
Encoding mode:Fast Encoding (1-Pass)
Nero SmartEncoding: Automatic

Number of titles: 1
1. Gang-V (Video Title, 0h 03m 28s)
- Audio SmartEncoding ratio: 100.0 %
- Video SmartEncoding ratio: 100.0 %

Video disc menu: Title and chapter menus

So, AVCHD file generated by Vegas 8.0c using Sony AVCHD template works perfectly with Nero Vision without re-encoding when you have SmartEncoding enabled in Nero Vision.

***********************************************************

Next, to try this with 1080p24...

...and also see if the 1920 Sony AVCHD template smart renders through Nero at higher than 17mbps bit rate, sounds from Larry Horwitz like it could.

Larry,
Just a few questions.

1.) What is your source for the 35mbps AVCHD?

2.) Does Nero Vision force a re-encode of compliant AVCHD?

3.) If no to #2, what are the parameters for compliant AVCHD?

4.) If yes to #2, will it make a quality transcode from mpeg2 to AVCHD?

5.) Can Nero Vision do all this on red laser media?

6.) And lastly (many thanks), will the Nero Vision authored AVCHD disk support 5.1 channel audio?

I will ask to 6. Yes, Nero Vision authored AVCHD with 5.1 channel audio, from my SR11 files. It doesn't extract audio stream, it leaves in 5.1 original format (so if you don't have 5.1 in your original files, it can't recode to 5.1).
Playing in PowerDVD or Nero Showtime I have info that is 5.1 sound.

For 1920x1080 resolution on red laser media, you can have any two of these three, but not all three at once:

- menus
- 5.1 surround
- 24p

**********************************************

No 24p in AVCHD, 16mbps max

No 5.1 in AVC, unlimited mbps


***********************************************

In Sony Vegas Pro 8.0(c)

AVC and AVCHD are not exactly the same. I think they are both h264, but different profiles. I believe Steve Mullen would characterize AVCHD as the "Sony/Panasonic" consumer format. Within Vegas at least, AVC has a much higher potential in regards to the video specs, but no 5.1 surround.

I think no matter what products we try with red laser media, what I said in the opening paragraph will always be true, any 2 of the 3 is the best we will get, menus, 5.1 surround or 24p, but not all 3 together.

And to get 5.1 surround and 24p together on red laser media, it's going to have to be mpeg-2 using TSMuxer 1.8.4b to create the hybrid disk, with no menus.

Tom,
Using sprinklerpan60imxp.m2ts and sprinklerzoom60imxp.m2ts (from Chris tests) I succesfully authored an AVCHD with 3d menues and transitions in Nero Vision, on a DVD-RW media. The result plays fine in PowerDVD, and it has 24mb/s and Dolby Digital 2.0 (the same as original files).

I will search for 24p and 5.1 surround Panasonic files (the only camcorders that have both), but i'm sure it will go ok...

About 5.1 in AVC (not AVCHD, in Nero AVC container is mp4) I also make 5.1 files from my SR11.

Mircea,

Excellent news that 24p 24Mbit/sec Smart rendered 3D menued AVCHD disks with menu transitions are supported with DD2. DD5.1 should work as well.

The Nero ShowTime player is yet another reason to buy Nero as it will play this disk properly and as well as PowerDVD at a small fraction of cost.

And check out Nero's audio editor....WaveEdit..... Looks and works like Sony's $299 Sound Forge and Apple's super expennsive audio editor in FCP!

The magazine reviews and other so-called 'authoritative' ratings and reviews of NLEs are just totally clueless about this Nero software.

Larry

I'm just saying I can't get there with Vegas Pro 8.0(c) because there's not a way that to combine 24p and 5.1 before it even gets to the step where Nero Vision could smart render it.

I need a way to mux an AC3 5.1 audio stream to a 24fps AVC/.mp4 video stream.

Anybody have any ideas?

Tom,

TMPGEnc Xpress 4 allows you to do this easily with ac3 files containing 2 channel stereo, and I can only assume that it would also work for 5.1 content as well.

Larry

I will take a look at TMPGEnc Xpress 4.0.

I have used version 3 for several years, it has licensed AC3 encoding but only for 2 channel. I also used to use TMPGEnc DVD Author (for std-def), but it would resample 5.1 back to 2 channel AC3, so I moved on to the Ulead authoring products, which started adding HD DVD and Blu-ray capabilities.

So you're saying that Xpress 4.0 can mux streams together without rendering? Womble MPEG Video Wizard does this for mpeg but doesn't support h.264.

Womble if you haven't tried it, is actually the best smart rendering editor I've tried, with the fastest scrubbing, includes a useful toolset of muxing/demuxing and other assorted utilities, and support for AC3 5.1, sound line editing. It's really the slickest user inferface I've tried. I only use Vegas for a few workflow steps that I have to. Vegas or one of the other large NLE's is pretty much required by the XDCAM-EX workflow at some point, at the minimum to convert .mxf files or demux the audio. As soon as I can get it to Womble, that's where I take it for non-rendered cuts and splice editing. But again, it's for mpeg-2.

Tom,
In the 5 years I did HDV editing I used most of the tools available, including Womble, VideoReDo, TMPGE, and essentially all of the NLEs including the original Final Cut, Mac version of Premiere, etc. Now that I am concentrating on AVCHD, I have been "forced" to get a new tool set which handles this format. I have been very aggressive in seeking out every tool I can, and using them in as many ways as I can try. I too am a big fan of Womple, TMPGE, and some of the other "classic" mpeg2 tools, and dearly wish they offered true AVCHD equivalents.

In the case of TMPGE latest version, they do not offer the "MPEG Tools" mux and de-mux choices for AVCHD which they still offer for mpeg 1 and 2. Instead, you add files to the timeline with both AVC video and AC3 audio formats supported (as well as many other formats) and then let the encoder remux them. It is entirely possible that the entire video and audio content is re-rendered, so I may not have entirely answered your original question which asked for "re-muxing". TMPGEnc Express 4 will create the right output file, but I would guess that it does so with rendering involved. You can give the trial a workout and see what happens. I do believe it now handles 5.1 without downcoversion to stereo, so this may be a good thing for you also.

Perhaps Virtual Dub might be fooled into remuxing the 2 files, but not really sure. There may also be some shareware out there that works as well. I typically avoid most of the shareware since it is just so unpredictable, but it may be worth a search with Google. I also want to believe that companies who have built VideoReDo, Womble, etc. eventually have to get on the AVCHD bandwagon, since their mass market sales are now srongly headed towards AVCHD format.

Larry

I do believe it now handles 5.1 without downcoversion to stereo, so this may be a good thing for you also.

That is the key, keeping it to just 1 render.

If Xpress 4.0 would just not molest the 5.1 to stereo, I could give it a native mpeg-2 source file.

Then I would have an end to end workflow.

This (Xpress 4.0) would be for high bitrate AVC, yes?

Mircea,

Excellent news that 24p 24Mbit/sec Smart rendered 3D menued AVCHD disks with menu transitions are supported with DD2. DD5.1 should work as well.

The Nero ShowTime player is yet another reason to buy Nero as it will play this disk properly and as well as PowerDVD at a small fraction of cost.
Larry

Thank you Larry. Unfortunatelly Nero ShowTime don't play AVCHD disks, it gives the message that this function is not supported yet (missing function: AVCHD playback).
I will look in forums for this, it's somehow strange that I think it's in many ways a much better player that PowerDVD.

Of course you can play streams from AVCHD and authored BR, but not authored AVCHD...

I'm just saying I can't get there with Vegas Pro 8.0(c) because there's not a way that to combine 24p and 5.1 before it even gets to the step where Nero Vision could smart render it.

I need a way to mux an AC3 5.1 audio stream to a 24fps AVC/.mp4 video stream.

Anybody have any ideas?

I just make a AVC (mp4) from a 24p trailer and a AC3 soundtrack in Nero Vision. I mute the track from the trailer and voila, I have a new 24p clip 1080p with a new AC3 track. Of course, no smartrender, Nero smartrenders only in AVCHD, not in AVC.
Making an AVCHD is the same...

...Nero smartrenders only in AVCHD, not in AVC.

That's what I was afraid of. I'm going to go ahead and update my Nero and see what it can do for me. Thanks.

Mircea,

Nero Show Time plays authored AVCHD disks on my system, including menus and navigation. I am now wondering why it will not work on your system.

I do have CoreAVC h.264 codecs installed but that should make no difference for this situation.

Try putting an AVCHD disk in your drive and then doing "Select Source" for that drive using the Show Time menu. Or, try clicking on the small Folder icon on the Show Time player control panel, and then doing "Play From Folder....." and then select the BDMV folder containing the AVCHD authored disk. Both methods work fine here.

There is only 1 slight limitation, which is that the Nero Show Time player cannot play beyond 2 layers of menus deep. I have some AVCHD disks with a top men, a special features menu, and then a 3rd menu below Special Features (let's call it Deleted Scenes). All of my other AVCHD players can navigate all the way down (PowerDVD, WinDVD, Total Media Theater) but Nero can't activate the final, 3rd layer. Aside from that, it works great.

Maybe you don't have the updated version? Mine is 4.3.7.0.

Larry

That is the key, keeping it to just 1 render.

If Xpress 4.0 would just not molest the 5.1 to stereo, I could give it a native mpeg-2 source file.

Then I would have an end to end workflow.

This (Xpress 4.0) would be for high bitrate AVC, yes?


Yes Tom, but looks like straight re-muxing is not an option for AVCHD video.

Larry

Maybe you don't have the updated version? Mine is 4.3.7.0.


4.42.0.0 is what just downloaded for me.

Tom,

Both my "About" splash screen and the update version display show the Nero Show Time as being up to date and version 4.3.7.0.

You should confirm this using:

Start>>>Programs>>>Nero 8>>>Nero Toolkit>>>NeroControlCenter>>> then select Update tab on the left.

You should see:

Nero Show Time Installed Version: 4.3.7.0. if you have the latest version.


Larry

Larry -- thank you for your detailed response.

Looks like Tom and I are still out in the cold looking for something SIMPLE that will do what BD does for Hollywood -- make 5.1 DD, 1080p24 movies, with menus. (And, those who shoot 720p24 or 720p30 -- a dead end too.)

There may be some "esoteric" tools that can be tricked into doing these jobs, but if one wants to author BD, BD-5/9, or AVCHD discs like one can with current Apple or Adobe DVD tools -- I don't think we are there yet.

1) For example, there are ways to manually create a red-laser BD-5/9 disc that will play on the PS-3 and other BD players, but it takes more steps than "pros" are used to using with their tools.

2) When product claims to make AVCHD disks, they fail to be upfront about whether the are outputting Main 4.0 or High 4.1. Sony we know is at, and likely to stay at, Main 4.0. If one is coming from 24Mbps AVCHD, HDV, or one of the XDCAM/P2 formats -- one wants High 4.1, not only because it supports 25Mbps, but because High uses smarter encoding tools!

In fact, those not coming from AVCHD -- really shouldn't want to make AVCHD discs. We want to use H.264 at High 5.1 or MPEG-2. Almost everything I do starts as MPEG-2. (But, may wind-up as ProRes 422 or DNxHD.) And, at 35Mbps, there is not only no quality advantage to H.264, the encoding time or MPEG-2 is much much shorter.

And, it seems the BD folks intended to force Region 50 to only use 24p. I'm still not sure if the BD spec got amended for 1080p25 and 720p25. (Thankfully, 1080p25 should be able to be treated as 1080i50. But, it's still a hack.)

Right now to burn 24p material with 5.1 you have to add 2-3 pulldown -- which kills the whole goal of 24p through to projection at 48p, 72p, 96p, or 120p.

Sometimes, I think we are being locked-out of cheap 24p to force the purchase of expensive tools.

I think it makes sense to start a new thread on "I want to make a BD-5/9 Disc" because right now we are mixing three options together: BD, BD-5/9, and AVCHD.