I agree Steve, and have notionally segregated the authoring community into 2 basic camps: those who want the rich and complete delivery of all things "expected" in commercial HD disks, including 24p, full movie length play time of 2+ hours, full 5.1 (or 7.1) Digital Dolby, very high bitrates, and total menu navigation control

and

the second camp, those who want a delivery method for more amateur / less professional content, sacrificing one or more of the previously stated features (24p, 2+ hours, full Dolby surround, high bitrates, total navigation).

It is into this latter camp that I believe AVCHD applies, and into the former camp that BluRay applies.

My segregation is somewhat arbitrary, but it does recognize that the tools, costs, and complexities really do "cluster" around these two extremes. As the tools expand and the markets expand, the distinctions will blur and many tools of one camp may indeed solve the needs of the other, but I believe this is like to stay segregated for the most part until costs drop a lot.

No doubt a lot of our own disagreement arises from where we view AVCHD in this delivery mix. Many authors legitimately want to use it to produce event videos or other prosumer / professional content, and are quite rightfully underwhelmed by the amateur AVCHD NLEs which I embrace / endorse. The converse is also apparently true as well, namely, that many amateurs reject the notion of using sledgehammers to drive thumbtacks, a metaphor I may regret using, to represent overly expensive and overpowered tools to make home movies.

For the time being it truly does seem like there is no workflow to do what Tom, you, and others are asking for without applying the heavy guns. And I doubt that NBC news will be switching to Nero Vision any time soon either..... (-8

It concerns me also more than a little bit that AVCHD support among BluRay players is not universal, and may disappear in the not too distant future. Red laser AVCHD may also give way to only support for blue laser playback in the not too distant future, obsoleting many of the disks we save our cherished memories on. Those who have struggled to build collections of VCDs, SVCDs, HD DVDs, etc. know what I mean.

And mark my words........Japan Incorporated will have an "Ultra Definition" format on the street in not too many years, leaving all of this in a state of obsolete garbage, not much different from VHS tapes.

I guess this is what makes it all so exciting and so frustrating.....

Larry

As I have been away experimenting with Nero Vison, I return to the topic finding that my conclusions have already been accurately stated in advance by Steve and Larry!

I read through Steve's points and agree with every one of them. Then I read through Larry's and agree with them too! What love!

But just to restate what I was able to do, or rather not able to do...

- Using Vegas and Nero Vision in combination, I was not successful with mpeg2 native 1920x1080p24 from the EX1, not even through various conversions.

- AVCHD with 60i and AC3 5.1 and menus does work.

- AVC is always re-encoded by Nero Vision

A great summary, Larry.

As a regular lurker in the FCP and Avid groups it's clear there is mass confusion amoungst the "pros."

How does one edit AVCHD that's been brought to them? This question is going to become more often asked when Pana's new AVCCAM arrives.

How can they make HD discs with only a red laser burner?

How can the be confident, given the number of BD players all with different firmware, that what they burn can be played?

For some, the answer is just spend the money to get an authoring package -- even if i's expensive. But, that's not where most of us are at.

For some, the answer is just spend the money to get an authoring package -- even if i's expensive.

Sony has one. It's about $40,000, no problem...

I am posting this here for the benefit of Mircea and other readers of this thread who may have found that Nero software, particularly Nero Vision 5 and the Show Time Player do not appear to work exactly as I previously had stated in playing full menued AVCHD disks and authoring BDMV disks:

____________________________________________________________________
I think I now know why Steve and Mircea may have seen different Nero performance from me in 2 earlier replies. I am not entirely sure this is the explanation, but it would seem to explain it all:

I purchased, for an earlier version of Nero, an optional add-in which expanded the functionality of Nero 7 to include HD DVD and some BluRay BDMV functionality. This was added maybe 18 months ago when it was released.

It appears that the newer Nero 8 I subsequently purchased must be using the addin. This is actually something I confirmed by looking in the Control Center licensing panel, where the serial number for my old purchase shows up in addition to the serial number for Nero 8. I therefore have a more robust and more competent version, which is why I am authoring BDMV with Nero Vision and playing AVCHD disks with Show Time with no problems.

I had not considered that an earlier purchase for an older version would have any impact but it apparently does.

The good news is that this plugin/addin is totally transparent, works exactly as claimed, and adds tons of functionality, as shown below. I bought it for $20 when it was first released.

The description is below.

Larry

see: Nero – Blu-ray/HD DVD Video Plug-in (http://www.nero.com/eng/bluray-hddvd-video-plugin.html)
_____________________________________________________________


Blu-ray / HD DVD Video Plug-in
Play your Blu-ray and HD DVD Video on your PC
This plug-in can only be used with Nero 7 or Nero 8
Experience the quality of Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD right on your PC! With the Blu-ray/HD DVD Video Plug-in, you now have access to advanced authoring, playback, and editing features for your High Definition content.

Play your favorite Blu-ray Discs and HD DVDs on your PC
Experience true High Definition video with brilliant images in Full HD (1080p)
Enjoy outstanding audio quality up to 5.1 channels with Dolby® Digital, Dolby® Digital Plus, Dolby®TrueHD and DTS Digital Surround
Edit HD video content and then burn to Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD
Save time by modifying your editable Blu-ray videos right on the disc – no need to copy to another drive!
Record Blu-ray or HD DVD videos from your HDV or DV camcorder and customize it the way you like by adding menus, play lists, etc., or store content in its raw, compressed format on a Blu-ray Disc without loss of quality
Use highly interactive menus and other Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD advanced features throughout movie playback
This plug-in will enhance your Nero applications with the following technologies:
HD DVD-Video playback and authoring*
Blu-ray Disc playback, authoring, and editing**
MPEG-2 decoding/encoding***
VC-1 decoding
H.264 AVC decoding with AVC Film Grain
Dolby® Digital 5.1 decoding/encoding***
Dolby® Digital EX decoding
Dolby® Digital Plus 5.1 decoding
Dolby® TrueHD 5.1 decoding
DTS® Digital Surround 5.1 decoding
AACS Playback

* HD DVD-Video authoring is only available in Nero 8, playback requires Nero 7.8 or higher
** Playback of BD-ROM 2.0 and authoring or playback of BD-R 2.0 and BD-RE 3.0 (BDMV formats) requires Nero 8.2 or higher. Currently supported BD-ROM profile is 1.0. Playback and authoring of BD-R 1.0 and BD-RE 2.0 (BDAV formats) requires Nero 7.8 or higher. Editing requires Nero 7.8 or higher and is not available in Nero Vision Essentials SE.
*** Also included in the full version of Nero 8

Important Information
The Blu-ray/HD DVD Video Plug-in can be used with:
Nero 7 full version
Nero 7 Essentials
Nero 8 full version
Nero 8 Essentials
The Blu-ray/HD DVD Video Plug-in cannot be used as a stand-alone product.

Playback of commercial Blu-ray Disc titles (BD-ROM) is only available with Nero 8. Several titles featuring interactive content are currently not supported. Title compatibility will be improved with periodic free updates.

Mircea,

Nero Show Time plays authored AVCHD disks on my system, including menus and navigation. I am now wondering why it will not work on your system.

I do have CoreAVC h.264 codecs installed but that should make no difference for this situation.

Try putting an AVCHD disk in your drive and then doing "Select Source" for that drive using the Show Time menu. Or, try clicking on the small Folder icon on the Show Time player control panel, and then doing "Play From Folder....." and then select the BDMV folder containing the AVCHD authored disk. Both methods work fine here.

There is only 1 slight limitation, which is that the Nero Show Time player cannot play beyond 2 layers of menus deep. I have some AVCHD disks with a top men, a special features menu, and then a 3rd menu below Special Features (let's call it Deleted Scenes). All of my other AVCHD players can navigate all the way down (PowerDVD, WinDVD, Total Media Theater) but Nero can't activate the final, 3rd layer. Aside from that, it works great.

Maybe you don't have the updated version? Mine is 4.3.7.0.

Larry

Thank you Larry, I have the same version. If it works for you, it will work for me. I did what you sayed but Nero gives the message that this functionality is not available. I will search for this, it will work...

Later edit: I saw your last post and I think that's the explanation...

Larry, my copy of Nero 8 (the latest version) has arrived safe-and-sound, and I am ready to install it. Your recent post (to summarize): I must purchase a plug-in in order to get the BluRay functionality?

Unless you purchase and then enter the serial number for the HD DVD/BluRay plugin, the software apparently will not create BDMV (menued) BluRay disks nor will it play menued AVCHD or BluRay disks in the Show Time player. The simple answer is that you will need to purchase the addin/plug, and then enter the serial number into Nero in the License control center (Start>>Programs>>Nero 8>>Nerto Toolkit>>Nero Control Center>>License Tab and then use the Add button.

Larry

Larry; I see Nero 9 is now out. As of just a couple of days ago.
Any comment on this new version?

Tom,

I am a bit undecided on this upgrade. The published information on the upgrade provides little or no reason to justify the purchase as far as I can tell. I will list the information below and you mauy agree with me that the new version does not appear to offer anything substantial compared to version 8. I have coincidentally been using the new trial version of Movie Factory 7 Pro from Ulead / Corel and feel the same way here. It hardly seems worth spending anything for a very limited number of new features.

Let me list the new Nero 9 upgrade features here and then close with a few more comments below:

From Nero's website:
______________________________________________
Top 5 Reasons to Upgrade Comparison Chart

1.Enjoy a fast, easy, and convenient user interface
Nero StartSmart, the intuitive command center in Nero 9, now integrates new playback, ripping, burning, copying, and backup functions with one click tabs so you can quickly and easily access your favorite digital features.

2.Create superior High Definition video
Simply capture video from AVCHD camcorders and create stunning movies with 3D animated menu templates for professional-looking videos. The new Tape Scan feature lets you quickly and easily preview with scene selections from digital (DV) or High Definition videos (HDV) for the seamless import of video, saving you time and hard drive space. Easily add HD menu templates and burn AVCHD discs using standard recordable DVD media. Nero’s Smart Encoding for AVCHD saves you time and ensures quality playback.

3.Watch, record, pause, and customize your live TV experience
Providing a great new TV experience for your PC, Nero Live is a new addition to Nero 9 that lets you view high-quality live TV on your PC. As a stand-alone application or to enhance your Windows® Media Center, Nero Live makes it easy to watch live TV/HDTV, record TV shows, watch two channels at once with Picture in Picture (PiP) capabilities, time shift for up to 60 minutes, and listen to DVB radio.

4.Edit videos and create professional-looking DVD movies
Nero 9 provides highly-enhanced yet easy-to-use video editing tools that let you personalize your home videos and slide shows. The new Movie Wizard allows for greater creativity with an easy-to-use library of templates including themes for special occasions like birthdays, holidays, and weddings, plus soundtracks and special effects.

5.Protect, back up, and recover your memories
Nero 9 includes new easy and convenient tools to protect your valuable memories and confidential data, plus safeguard against system crashes, natural disasters, and human error. The new Auto Backup feature in Nero 9 makes it easy for you to back up digital files from your PC including files, folders, drives, and even the entire system via a simple wizard interface for offline or online backup. With Nero RescueAgent technology, you can safely and securely recover data from damaged or scratched discs, hard drives, USB and flash sticks, and other memory devices.

____________________________________________

Although there are some major new benefits in item 3, I am not personally interested. Item 2 for those of us doing AVCHD disks looks pretty much unchanged for AVCHD and only adds the Tape Scan for tape-based DV and HDV content.


One other very big consideration is that Nero is unlike almost every other piece of software in the way it installs, since removing it entirely and going back to an older version is a real pain. I am not willing to go for the trial unless I am reasonably sure I would buy the new upgrade, and so far anyway, I have yet to see any reason to go for it.

I might download 9 on one of my other machines here to check it out, but my first reaction is a bg yawn..............

Larry

Larry;
Thanks for your, as always, detailed answer.
I have just ordered a HF-10. It only records in AVCHD nothing else.
To date I am using a Sony VX-2000, SD and it's 10 years old, and falling apart.
Now I need to actually buy something for editing AVCHD instead of just lurking on this forum.

My hobby is playing flute, both classical and traditional (celtic) music. With 3/4 other musicians.
I record audio on a hard disk recorder-a KORG D-16XD using .WAV format at 44.1kHz/16bit.
Presently (in SD of course) I use Adobe Premiere or Microsoft Moviemaker and it is very easy to create 3/5 minute pieces that I can edit into a single program of about 1 hour on tape or DVD by adding the audio track,titles and credits and using various video shots (scenics, beauty spots, etc.) as well as the musicians actually playing.

Does any particular program spring to mind as most suitable when you see what I am doing. It appears Nero 9 may well be my best answer at the moment.

Thanks in advance.

Tom,

I am a huge collector and fan of flute performances, and have eagerly sought out Rampal and Galway recordings in particular for many years.

You need a very substantial computer for AVCHD so I need to ask you what your computer environment is. Also, given your specific emphasis on music capture and playback, are there particular mixing or audio editing requirements? Also, do you have surround 5.1 channel needs? Do you do a lot of video adjustments for color, cropping, or other heavy editing?

Programs like Nero are comparatively basic and easy to use versus Premiere, and may not be versatile enough for you. Have you found Premiere to be a good chioice for your SD editing? What type of playback are you planning? Do you have any BluRay playback capabilities? Authoring AVCHD only makes sense if you intend to present HD content in an HD format.

So I have answered your question with many more questions.....! These are all topics to consider as you / we try to answer your original question regarding the choice of AVCHD software.

Larry

Larry;
I am not such a huge fan of Rampal (heresy among flute players) as I am of Pahud and Galway who I regard as a real virtuoso. As do most flute players, I think. I have seen him often playing live and have never heard a slight error in even the most demanding pieces, some of which I know quite well.

My new computer is this one, but I can and will build a new one myself if it's not up to the job. Money is important but not the only determinant here.

Model No; Hewlett Packard a6552f. (total cost incl. monitor etc. was $CAD 1,080)
Core2 Quad Q6600 @2.4GHz.
4 GB Ram- 6400/800
640 GB drive western digital sata 3 @7200 RPM. (single drive only)
Standard DVD burner.
NVidia 9500GS video card
22" W/S monitor with HDMI, native 1680x1050 but can do 1920x1080.
64 bit Vista Home Premium.
Premiere 6.5 (adequate but out of date) and Moviemaker Vista V.6 (HD but not AVCHD)

For audio recording;
From experience I will not use a computer to record audio performances as they glitch too often (or freeze) and audio capture is a one-shot deal either you succeed totally or fail totally. So I have gone to hard disk recording and am happy with my Korg D16XD, it takes in 8 mics, has full audio special FX and has some mastering capability as well as popping out a finished audio cd. These cd's that Korg makes are my masters for audio cd duplication so audio cd making is not an issue here. The Korg is reliable, so far.

Presently I use these cd's to import into Premiere or the underated Moviemaker V6.
What I need from the editing program to be able to import .wav's at DVD quality (44.1kHz/16 bit is fine, with 94kHz/24 bit available on the Korg but I rarely use it) and put it onto the timeline and output without distortion. Commonly I import the audio first and then add video clips,transitions,titles and credits, etc to suit, editing as I go along. I re-edit these shorts into a single file of about 1 hour (15 or so takes) for a DVD which must have menus and to date we have only used stereo, not 5:1 or 7:1 output.
Our output is still standard DVD's not HD as yet but it's coming.
Although output for DVD's will probably not be a problem with Nero or whatever I buy, output for the web is an issue. I need about 320x240 resolution at about 520kbps.
Working in SD is very quick and remarkably easy for me.
But the times they are a'changing.

My trusty old VX-2000 is now unreliable (quits due to a bad power switch that I cannot replace) and so I got the HF-10. It's extreme portability is a real plus as I shoot a lot of scenics and so on. If this is a wrong camera not big deal as I can sell it easily, and it came from my Visa reward program points!

Thanks in advance.

Do you want to author HD disks, or will you stay with SD?

Larry;
Both.
SD to date, but HD is in the not too distant future.

Tom,

There are presently 5 relatively low cost choices when it comes to selecting a program which allow you to make both menued AVCHD and standard DVD disks:

Nero
ArcSoft Total Media Extreme
Corel Video Studio X2 Pro
Cyberlink Power Director 7 Ultra
Pinnacle Studio 12 Ultimate

(Corel Movie Factory 7 Pro has no editing to speak of and is therefore being ignored for this discussion).


The first 2 force you to make a choice immediately upon starting a project as to which type of output you intend to make. Once a project is started in, for example, AVCHD, then you cannot open the project in another format, let's say DVD. Thus, both Nero Vision as well as Arcsoft TME force you to start over again if you want to eventually go from one media type to another. Since I would consider this to be a big problem for someone who is in a situation you describe, I would eliminate both Nero and TME from consideration.

Among the remaining 3 contenders, each has strengths and weaknesses which you should consider:

Corel Video Studio has weak audio trimming and editing, but a very nice set of 10 audio filtering options, as well as pan controlled 5.1 mixing for complete surround sound Digital Dolby 5.1. AVCHD is SmartRendered very well.

Cyberlink has better trimming and editing of the audio but essentially no filter options, and no creation, mixing / panning of 5.1. AVCHD is Smart Rendered very well.

Pinnacle actually offers both better trimming as well as a substantial set of audio filtering and mixing options, but has pretty poor re-rendered video with no AVCHD Smart Render whatsoever.

Personally, I would therefore eliminate Pinnacle since it lacks any Smart Render, with the choice being narrowed to Corel or Cyberlink.

Of the 2, Corel seems more mature, more stable, a bit less intuitive to new users, and very feature rich. I do not like the audio trimming however, but this may be something you do not need to do often. Cyberlink is up until a very recent new patch release quite buggy, and even now I am not nearly as confident in using it. This issue becomes even more apparent for the longer and more complex projects of the type you seem to be interested in.

Thus, at the bottom line, I would suggest Corel Video Studio X2 Pro, but offer you the same caveats and disclaimers, namely, that your mileage may vary considerably from mine. Using both trial programs is the best way to see if either, neither, or both satisfy you for your specific needs. Both make very nice fully menued AVCHD and DVD disks, with Smart Rendering, Smart Proxy instant previewing of effects, and pretty straight-forward user interfaces. I should also add that the web publishing you are describing would be more supported in VideoStudio Pro X2, which has a wider range of output formats suitable for web publishing.

Larry

Larry;
Many thanks. You have saved me a lot of time.
I am truly appreciative.
I will decide and let you know the results.
The HF-10 arrived to-day.
Neat little package, tiny camera. I like it so far.

Glad to help, Tom.

The little Canon is a terrific camera, and does better video than any other camcorder I have ever owned, including the 3-sensor HD FX-1 from Sony at 4 times the cost.

Larry

Thanks again for your concise replies, Larry. I'm on my way with Nero 8 and the Canon 100 and will report back when I actually find time to do the work...which is why I'm writing this.

Your instructions and suggestions on this board seem to have my goals and interests in mind--decent HD video editing...not necessarily professional quality etc...but decent enough...with reliable software and a quick learning curve.

Thanks again.

Very glad to help Mark. Please try to provide some feedback to this forum regarding your experiences with the HF100 and Nero so others can benefit once you have some time to check it out.

Larry

Hi Larry

Not sure if you got my email but wanted to thank you for the advice. Nero is a great program and really easy to use. In a short time I produced a quality AVCHD disk with menus and chapters. The only thing that didn't work for me was the MP3 audio file that I attached to the project to play while on the menu screens.

It works perfect on the preview of the project, but once the disk is burned it does not play either on the PS3 or in Nero Showtime.

Have you experienced this or do you have any suggestions? Thanks again.

[QUOTE=Jamie Lauzon;948137It works perfect on the preview of the project, but once the disk is burned it does not play either on the PS3 or in Nero Showtime.
[/QUOTE]

MP3 is not supported on BD or AVCHD discs. So, if you imported your own music it should be pre-converted to WAV. WAV and AIFF are PCM which is supported.

Ideally you want ALL audio on a disc to be AC3. Even if the menu music is a type supported, your home theater needs time to switch from one mode to another. I found almost 2 seconds were needed to switch to AC3 from another audio mode with an HD DVD player. So, movies needed 2 seconds of silent black before starting.

That means if your menu program doesn't convert menu audio to AC3, you should do so before importing it.

Jamie,

I did not receive your email, and first checked my gmail spam trap to see if it might be there. When I could not find it there, I sent myself an email via this forum, and again did not receive it. I guess the emaill system is not working entirely correctly. I believe I registered with the preference to allow receiving private email. And this forum does permit private email to me so I am guessing there is a bug somewhere.

In any event, I am really glad that Nero works well for you. Like the other 2 programs I use here, Corel VS X2 Pro and PowerDirector 7 Ultra, it is extremely quick, makes great looking disks, and is very inexpensive compared to the "pro" alternatives.

Steve is entirely correct that mp3 is unsupported, and Nero SHOULD issue a warning but does not when you insert the menu audio as an mp3 file. The solution is exactly as Steve stated.

Check out the audio editing and conversion program which comes with Nero called Wave Edit.

Not only will it do the mp3 conversion for you, but it, believe it or not, will open, edit, and save 5.1 channel Dolby Digital audio, and convert into and out of that format as well. All channels are discretely accesible.

Try doing that with Sony's $300 Sound Forge 9 program. You will quickly discover that you can't! Sony only allows export / render in 5.1 and then, believe it or not, cannot and will not open the very file it just created in 5.1 format.

Sony documentation makes it very clear that 5.1 support is "render output" only.

This is yet another reason why I totally love Nero 8. For $60 to $70 you get a very competent AVCHD disk creation Nero Vision app, an extremely competent BluRay and AVCHD player, a tremendous audio editing program, a full featured disk burning program, and a lot of other stuff.

Larry

Check out the audio editing and conversion program which comes with Nero called Wave Edit.

Not only will it do the mp3 conversion for you, but it, believe it or not, will open, edit, and save 5.1 channel Dolby Digital audio, and convert into and out of that format as well. All channels are discretely accesible.

Try doing that with Sony's $300 Sound Forge 9 program. You will quickly discover that you can't! Sony only allows export / render in 5.1 and then, believe it or not, cannot and will not open the very file it just created in 5.1 format.

Sony documentation makes it very clear that 5.1 support is "render output" only.

This is yet another reason why I totally love Nero 8. For $60 to $70 you get a very competent AVCHD disk creation Nero Vision app, an extremely competent BluRay and AVCHD player, a tremendous audio editing program, a full featured disk burning program, and a lot of other stuff.

Larry

Good tip on the Nero program.

Do you see any reason to upgrade to Nero 9? I bought 8 5 days before 9 came out and they still want a 100 or so to upgrade.

I can't explain anything about WHY Vegas is the way it is! People really LOVE Vegas cause they say it's good for editing video. I find the GUI horrible for video. But, I do find it great for editing audio -- which is what it originally used for.

PS: Vegas can edit Sony 5.1 AVCHD from their camcorder.

Steve,

I have not found a good reason to upgrade to version 9 of Nero, based on the new additional features which have been added:




From Nero's website:
______________________________________________
Top 5 Reasons to Upgrade Comparison Chart

1.Enjoy a fast, easy, and convenient user interface
Nero StartSmart, the intuitive command center in Nero 9, now integrates new playback, ripping, burning, copying, and backup functions with one click tabs so you can quickly and easily access your favorite digital features.

2.Create superior High Definition video
Simply capture video from AVCHD camcorders and create stunning movies with 3D animated menu templates for professional-looking videos. The new Tape Scan feature lets you quickly and easily preview with scene selections from digital (DV) or High Definition videos (HDV) for the seamless import of video, saving you time and hard drive space. Easily add HD menu templates and burn AVCHD discs using standard recordable DVD media. Nero’s Smart Encoding for AVCHD saves you time and ensures quality playback.

3.Watch, record, pause, and customize your live TV experience
Providing a great new TV experience for your PC, Nero Live is a new addition to Nero 9 that lets you view high-quality live TV on your PC. As a stand-alone application or to enhance your Windows® Media Center, Nero Live makes it easy to watch live TV/HDTV, record TV shows, watch two channels at once with Picture in Picture (PiP) capabilities, time shift for up to 60 minutes, and listen to DVB radio.

4.Edit videos and create professional-looking DVD movies
Nero 9 provides highly-enhanced yet easy-to-use video editing tools that let you personalize your home videos and slide shows. The new Movie Wizard allows for greater creativity with an easy-to-use library of templates including themes for special occasions like birthdays, holidays, and weddings, plus soundtracks and special effects.

5.Protect, back up, and recover your memories
Nero 9 includes new easy and convenient tools to protect your valuable memories and confidential data, plus safeguard against system crashes, natural disasters, and human error. The new Auto Backup feature in Nero 9 makes it easy for you to back up digital files from your PC including files, folders, drives, and even the entire system via a simple wizard interface for offline or online backup. With Nero RescueAgent technology, you can safely and securely recover data from damaged or scratched discs, hard drives, USB and flash sticks, and other memory devices.


Although there are some major new benefits in item 3, I am not personally interested. Item 2 for those of us doing AVCHD disks looks pretty much unchanged for AVCHD and only adds the Tape Scan for tape-based DV and HDV content.


One other very big consideration is that Nero is unlike almost every other piece of software in the way it installs, since removing it entirely and going back to an older version is a real pain. I am not willing to go for the trial unless I am reasonably sure I would buy the new upgrade, and so far anyway, I have yet to see any reason to go for it.

I should mention that I once purchased an upgrade from Nero a few weeks before a new version was announced, and emailed them to ask if I could get the latest upgrade instead. They sent me a new serial number / key for the latest revision, and perhaps might do the same in your case. It's worth a try. I might suggest emailing your recent invoice or other proof of pirchase along with your request showing the very recent purchase.

I've been only able to edit ac3 content in Vegas when it is present on a muxed file along with video content and can't find any way to bring in only ac3 audio, whether stereo or 5.1. This confirms your comment about editing 5.1 when it comes with AVCHD content from the Sony camcorder. It appears that Sony Vegas as well as Sony Sound Forge as well as Sony DVD Architect can process ac3 but inputing audio for editing is not possible as far as I can tell.

Larry

Larry/Steve

Thanks for the tip on the audio. I will try the MP3 convesion and burn a new disk. By the way the burn for a 50 minute disk took approx 8 hours on my dual core 2gig laptop, is this normal?

I was also surprised that I could fit that much on a standard DVD. I noticed the quality was "good" in the burn screen but I could not find a way to change it to a better setting if there is one?

Sorry for the basic questions, but your help again would be appreciated.

Jamie

Jamie,

Your settings sound wrong to me.

To begin with, a 50 min disk should NOT fit on a single layer disk, and should occupy roughly 6 Gbytes, thus requiring a dual layer disk. (I am assuming your video clips were recorded at the highest quslity 15 Mbit/sec speed of the SR1).

Second, your burning time should be much, much faster than 8 hours. A 'Smart Rendered' disk should maybe take very roughly 60-90 minutes on your laptop, and would be finished on my very fast desktop in maybe 25 minutes or so.


Be sure that you have Nero settings for your specific type of AVCHD. Since your camcorder was the first AVCHD camcorder to be introduced (around October of 2006) it uses 1440 by 1080 AVCHD, rather than the more common 1920 by 1080. Secondly, your camcorder uses Dolby 5 channel audio rather than the more commom stereo 2.0 Digital Dolby. Both of these are manual over-ride settings in Nero. I am guessing that your Nero is set for the defaults and is therefore re-rendering the entire 50 minute video from its original 1440 to 1920, and may also be re-rendering your audio as well.

Whwn you arrive at the final page of Nero called Burn Options, turn on the "Details" and it will show you whether it is going to do Smart Rendering or not. You should see both Audio and Video Smart Encoding Ratios of 100% or close to it (unless you have decided to add color correction or other effects to all of your clips).

If your ratios are lower, click the "More" button below, and this will reveal more choices. Select / push the "Video Options" button and you will then see 2 tabs. Select the tab called "AVCHD".

Under "Quality Settings" chose Custom and set the resolution to 1440 by 1080 (rather than the default 1920 by 1080). Set the default audio to Dolby 5.1 rather than Dolby 2.0.
Set the bit rate to 15,000 kbits/sec. Then hit OK


You should now see 100% (or close to 100%) Smart Encoding ratios for both video and audio, and your burn time should drop drastically.

If it were me, I would first try doing burns with a small file just to get all of these settings correct, and then set them as the default settings, rather than try to do the full length 50 minute disk each time. I would only do the 50 minute disk after I got all the other settings working properly to avoid a lot of wasted time re-rendering. Also note that you will need to use a dual layer disk to hold 15 Mbit/sec AVCHD for a 50 minute program. You don't want to waste a lot of these as they are still a dollar apiece or more.

Let us know how this all works out.

Larry

Jamie,

I did not receive your email, and first checked my gmail spam trap to see if it might be there. When I could not find it there, I sent myself an email via this forum, and again did not receive it. I guess the emaill system is not working entirely correctly. I believe I registered with the preference to allow receiving private email. And this forum does permit private email to me so I am guessing there is a bug somewhere.

In any event, I am really glad that Nero works well for you. Like the other 2 programs I use here, Corel VS X2 Pro and PowerDirector 7 Ultra, it is extremely quick, makes great looking disks, and is very inexpensive compared to the "pro" alternatives.

Steve is entirely correct that mp3 is unsupported, and Nero SHOULD issue a warning but does not when you insert the menu audio as an mp3 file. The solution is exactly as Steve stated.

Check out the audio editing and conversion program which comes with Nero called Wave Edit.

Not only will it do the mp3 conversion for you, but it, believe it or not, will open, edit, and save 5.1 channel Dolby Digital audio, and convert into and out of that format as well. All channels are discretely accesible.

Try doing that with Sony's $300 Sound Forge 9 program. You will quickly discover that you can't! Sony only allows export / render in 5.1 and then, believe it or not, cannot and will not open the very file it just created in 5.1 format.

Sony documentation makes it very clear that 5.1 support is "render output" only.

This is yet another reason why I totally love Nero 8. For $60 to $70 you get a very competent AVCHD disk creation Nero Vision app, an extremely competent BluRay and AVCHD player, a tremendous audio editing program, a full featured disk burning program, and a lot of other stuff.

Larry

Hi Larry. I have been using a demo of the Corel Video Studio Pro and have not been able to get any of my music files to burn on my DVD footage. On the Corel program, it says that the music is Microsoft WAV files with PCM compression. Is there a way I can use them for background music using this program?

Thanks.
Mike

Mike,

I am, by no means, an expert on this program, but I did try a couple examples just now using .wav audio files in both the narration and background music tracks and they both worked fine. I only make AVCHD disks with this program, and it is remotely possible that there may be some bug which shows up when you make DVDs but disappears when I am making AVCHD disks, but I doubt it.

I suggest you go to the Corel forum with your question where there are a lot of experienced users who may be able to offer you better help on this issue. For whatever it is worth, I do not have your audio problem when using .wav audio files.

Larry

Hey Larry. Thanks for your response. I found the strangest solution to my problem. I merely switched to a different DVD burner and everything worked fine. Go figure! Anyways, all is fine now, and it works with burning a regular DVD. One other question for you: With this program, how can I fade the video out at the end of my program that I have created?

Thanks.
Mike

Hi Mike,

I can't explain why switching burners should effect the recording of .wav file audio. Very odd.

As regards the fade method in X2, I use the following approach. There are probably other methods as well.

In the Storyboard mode (not the Timeline mode) I insert a solid color in the last placeholder at the end of the movie / clip. These solid colors can be selected and inserted in the Effects Tab under the Color subtab. I place a black solid color clip into this placeholder and optionally adjust the duration of the clip to make the black screen on the file either longer or shorter. I then apply a transition called "Fade to Black" which can be found in the F/X transitions as the transition from the prior movie clip to the final solid color clip. This makes a smooth transition from your ending of the video clip to the black background.

Some other NLEs make this fade process with fewer steps, and there may be a way in X2 to do it in a simpler manner. Again, I urge you to pose questions of this type on the Ulead / Corel forum since I am not a master of each of the dozen or more programs I use and each has special tricks which I may not know about.

Good luck,

Larry

Thanks Larry, I will give it a shot.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Larry has it pretty much right. I drag a "Black" from the color bin and "Fade to Black" from the Favorites in the Effects, you could use Cross Fade, too.

VideoStudio is a great way to make DVDs with HD content for Bluray players, too.

My best,

Mike

Thanks. Well, my trial period ran out, so I will have to wait until I purchase the Corel program to try the fade. Overall, I do like the program, but I miss some of the things that Pinnacle 12 can do, or should I say, how they do certain things. But, the final PQ is what I am after, so Pinnacle will be put on the back burner, so to speak. Christmas is coming so I will not have to wait too long.
One thing I never did figure out was how to make the titles a different color than white.

Respectfully,
Mike

Hi Mike,

I played with Corel VS X2 Pro for a while tonight and could also not find a way to change title font color. I am almost positive this feature used to exist in the prior Video Studio 11.5 but I can't find it anyplace now.

Maybe a quesion posted on the Corel Ulead forum would answer your question.

Larry

Thanks Larry. Yeah, I probably ought to wander over to their forum site and take a look-see. My preview period expired, so I will have to wait until Christmas before working with it anymore. Meantime, I will continue my research.

By the way, does Nero have a download for me to try their program?

Mike

One thing I never did figure out was how to make the titles a different color than white.


Hi Mike,

Any application can be troublesome if you don't use it often. VideoStudio is no exception.

In the Title options, next to font size, is the color options. Select it for color you wish.

It's worth noting that you can have more than one font and color in the same title - a cool option for such an inexpensive NLE.

BTW, you can make your own custom titles, too, and add them to the titles menu for later repeated use.

My best.

Mike

Thanks Mike Gunter for finding this and helping Mike Burgess.

I see that Video Studio X2 Pro has a small icon which hides or shows the Options Control Panel, and I had mine set for "Hide". Mike Burgess may have had the same problem, since for both of us the various font options were hidden.

I therefore wanted to warn Mike Burgess to be sure the icon is properly selected to reveal the Optional Control Panel.

See attached.


Larry

Larry;
It's a litle early for me to butt in here with my comments on Corel's Videostudio X2 Pro, but it seems relevant in this thread. I took your advice and downloaded the trial version a week ago.
Good advice Larry and I thank you.
I use a 64 bit system version of Vista Home Premium on a quad core computer and it all seems to work well.
I have a HF-10 also just newly acquired so I'm learning both at the same time.
By and large I am quite surprised with Corel's VideoStudio X2Pro compared with Adobe 6.5 which I have been using for years. VS is much more advanced than I thought it would be, better than Adobe and has several advanced features that I think even later versions of Adobe still don't have.
All for US$99.00. Very surprisingly low.
So I am going to buy into Corel, really I can't go wrong.
There is no device driver for the HF-10 that I can find from Corel, Canon, or Windows. I thought this would be a real problem but I find that windows immediately recognizes the HF-10 as a drive as soon as I plug in the USB from the camera and I can drill down into the camera's memory and drag n'drop any shots I choose to a new folder on my desktop almost in real time. Very fast. Then I can import into VS easily for editing.
I can edit full AVCHD 1920X1080 at full resolution in Corel with few issues. Adding transitions, other effects, and titles and credits is childs play. But it slows down the system a bit, not much though. I save the final show to the same folder as I imported to, in full AVCHD 1920X1080.
I can easily make SD DVD's on either + or - disks taking about 3X real time from AVCHD 1920X1080 input. With a AVCHD burner I suspect it will be just as easy.
In all a good experience, so far.
May I suggest to readers that going to a pen and tablet input instead of a mouse is a great speed improvement, but only with practice of course. I learnt this years ago from the kings of NLE systems the British firm Quantel, who had only pen and tablet input (with a keyboard) and never had a mouse, but then just to confuse me completely they introduced a mouse in later versions and now I'm not sure they even use a tablet any more. But the speed improvement for me was huge.
In my early days of editing I was completely enamoured by Quantel, so much so that I enquired about costs, to my amazement a fellow called me, from England, to enquire if I would want them to also supply (as apparently was not un-common) a new building as part of the quote for a system.

Hi Tom,

You can also have a menu-ed AVCHD DVD disc that plays in some Bluray players in HD with VideoStudio Pro X2. It's a remarkable bargain for the price.

My best,

Mike

Tom,
Glad to hear that you like VS X2 Pro. It also amazes me just how much more capable it is compared to Adobe Premiere when handling AVCHD. The range of effects, transitions, filters, and other neat capabilities is especially impressive considering how little they charge for it. Nero and PowerDirector 7 from Cyberlink are also extremely capable, and make the bug guns like Sony Vegas, Premiere, and Final Cut look limited or bloated in many ways and vastly overpriced.

My HF100 does not have internal memory, so I merely read the SD card into my Dell at 30 Mbytes/sec and directly use the .mts clips with no driver issues. It is very fast, and much better than my HDV work with other camcoorders I have here. I absolutely love this little HF100 and the workflow which takes me from shooting a clip to watching an AVCHD disk on my BluRay player in less than 10 minutes. You do not need a special burner for AVCHD disks, and can make them with the same burner you presently use for SD. All you need is a player which supports AVCHD, which many if not most BluRay players provide. Then you can watch your content in full blown HD with the same quality as it comes from your camcorder directly at 1920 by 1080p.

I loved your comment about Quantel offering a building. Talk about a video editing accessory.....

Larry

Thanks Mike Gunter for finding this and helping Mike Burgess.

I see that Video Studio X2 Pro has a small icon which hides or shows the Options Control Panel, and I had mine set for "Hide". Mike Burgess may have had the same problem, since for both of us the various font options were hidden.

I therefore wanted to warn Mike Burgess to be sure the icon is properly selected to reveal the Optional Control Panel.

See attached.


Larry

Thanks to both Mike Gunter and Larry Horwitz for the info. When I purchase the program (I did like it during my trial period), I will have to check that out. I am sure there are many other things I will be able to find and use in the program. I will have to get the program somewhere on-line, since my local BB does not carry it (bummer).

Mike Burgess

Mike;
I am buying it directly from Corel.
I think the Pro version for $99.00 is worth the extra cost over the standard version.
VideoStudio X2 - Video Editing (http://www.corel.com/servlet/Satellite/ca/en/Product/1175714228541?trkid=DVsemCAN&trkid=58172288#versionTabview=tab0&tabview=tab0)

Mike;
I am buying it directly from Corel.
I think the Pro version for $99.00 is worth the extra cost over the standard version.
VideoStudio X2 - Video Editing (http://www.corel.com/servlet/Satellite/ca/en/Product/1175714228541?trkid=DVsemCAN&trkid=58172288#versionTabview=tab0&tabview=tab0)

Thanks Tom, for the link. Keep in touch on how things work for you.
Mike

You definitely need the Pro version to do HD work. I too bought all of my Corel and Ulead software directly from them on the web.

Larry

You definitely need the Pro version to do HD work. I too bought all of my Corel and Ulead software directly from them on the web.

Larry

Understand. Will do. Thanks again Larry, for all your responses and help.

Mike B.

Glad to help, Mike!

Mike;
I am buying it directly from Corel.
I think the Pro version for $99.00 is worth the extra cost over the standard version.
VideoStudio X2 - Video Editing (http://www.corel.com/servlet/Satellite/ca/en/Product/1175714228541?trkid=DVsemCAN&trkid=58172288#versionTabview=tab0&tabview=tab0)

I notice that many are recommending VSX2. I have been using it and have noticed that when I smart render AVCHD from my HF100, I get stutters before and after most cuts. I have heard that this is a common occurence when a transition is inserted between two clips (see AVCHD editing threads on Videostudio forums), but I am experiencing it even on straight cuts. When I use the bundled HF100 Pixela software (which also smart renders), I am not getting this stutter probelm, so it seems to be a bug with VSX2. When I do not smart render, I do not get the stutters. Has anyone experienced this? Thanks.

Peter,

For whatever it's worth, I have never seen this problem either in the new X2 or the older 11.5 version of Video Studio Pro.

I went to the Ulead support forum and found the long thread where some other users have reported the same problem. One of the posts describes the "solution" he came up with using Nero Vision as an intermediate.

I downloaded his "before" sample .mts file, and cannot see any stutter effect on my machine at all using 3 different players I have here for AVCHD.

It may be that some machines have hardware or software issues which show up in this way. Perhaps a marginal processor or video card. Perhaps a codec not playing properly.

I realize this answer does you no good in terms of solving YOUR problem, but I would also be glad to take a look at your file if you want to post it someplace.

My HF100 files all seem to edit without this problem, and I always use Smart Render, try to do cuts-only edits, and have made tons of AVCHD disks.

I would definitely ask Corel for their support in fixing this, and several other people are obviously experiencing the same issue.

Larry

t may be that some machines have hardware or software issues which show up in this way. Perhaps a marginal processor or video card. Perhaps a codec not playing properly.

There's several ways of creating a smart cut. The point is to keep the data buffer from overflowing on decode. I suspect poorly designed encode software and/or marginal decode software/hardware creates the stutter. The encode technique seems to be patented by Avid. I just wrote a story for Broadcast Engineering about Smart GOP Splicing.