Alistair.
I've come to the same conclusion with the 8gb transcend, i've got 3 of them, all have performed faultlessly.
Probably gonna get a few 16gb's now.
Can get 16gb's for £26 or the 8gb's for £12.
That's just ridiculous prices, they might as well just give them away.

Paul.

What's wrong with Sony simply bringing down the prices of their current, fast SxS cards to match the Kensington+Sandisk Extreme III....
I suspect they are pretty difficult to manufacture, and if you compare them to other cards in other ranges (SDHC, CF etc), the pricing isn't that surprising. From the B&H website:

(All 16GB cards)
Sandisk Ultra II - 9/10MB/s - $73.50 (SDHC)
Sandisk Extreme III - 30MB/s - $169.95 (SDHC)
Sandisk Extreme IV - 40MB/s - $244.95 (CF)
Sony 306x - 46MB/s - $399.95 (CF)

Since SxS cards are rated at 100MB/s (800Mb/s) I don't therefore find their pricing surprising, and I don't see them just cutting their prices to the Extreme III level. But SDHC, CF etc cards are available in a range of speeds (and sizes) and I don't see any reason why that shouldn't be the case for SxS. Why not an Extreme III version of SxS, rated at 30MB/s, and priced around $200-250 for 16GB, as an alternative to the full spec version?

Not as good as full spec SxS, but good enough for most work, and I agree that it would help to sell many, many more EX cameras.

In the meantime, the ability to use SDHC cards with an adaptor has much merit. I don't see Sony promoting it as such - too many variables, and the possibility of too many telephone queries! ("No sir, the problem is you need a class 6 card, not that cheap thing you picked up at the market......") With "SxS lite" it becomes far more under their control.

Hi,

First of all to all: "THANK YOU FOR YOUR INTENSIV INVESTIGATION"

I followed the thread and i bought the Kensington adaptor for about 20 EU in Germany and the Transcend 8 GB for 12 EU and the The SanDisk Extreme III 30MB/s for about 60 EU and i tested them in 720/50p 1080/50i and S&Q etc. they work fine without any errors. I´ve got an delock adapter to transfer them to my mac - no problem.
Well, I´ve bought a few SXS cards and they cost a lot of money - with this solution i´m pretty happy saving a lot of money.
And it´s look still professional.

Volker
__________________
Producer/Cameraman/TV-Journalist
TVDOCS IDE FILM+FERNSEHEN TV PRODUKTIONEN NEWS REPORTAGEN DOKUMENTATIONEN MEDIZIN WISSENSCHAFT & KULTUR TV Journalist Volker Ide (http://www.tvdocs.eu)

Since SxS cards are rated at 100MB/s (800Mb/s) I don't therefore find their pricing surprising, and I don't see them just cutting their prices to the Extreme III level. But SDHC, CF etc cards are available in a range of speeds (and sizes) and I don't see any reason why that shouldn't be the case for SxS. Why not an Extreme III version of SxS, rated at 30MB/s, and priced around $200-250 for 16GB, as an alternative to the full spec version?



Makes a lot of sense. They could relabel the cheaper cards to SxS Lite (30MB/s verison) or something.

Yes, based on the SxS 100MB/s fast data rate, it appears they are ready for their next launch of 4:2:2 50mbps EX cameras.

Yes, based on the SxS 100MB/s fast data rate, it appears they are ready for their next launch of 4:2:2 50mbps EX cameras.
Well, their quoted speed is *16x* that of the 50Mbs system that the PDW700 uses, so it leaves me wondering what else they may be readying for in the future? :) Apart from very quick downloading!

Well, their quoted speed is *16x* that of the 50Mbs system that the PDW700 uses, so it leaves me wondering what else they may be readying for in the future? :) Apart from very quick downloading!

I might be wrong but isn't the 800 Mb/s the theoretical bus speed of the SxS card and not the actual data transfer speed when reading and writing to the card?

I might be wrong but isn't the 800 Mb/s the theoretical bus speed of the SxS card and not the actual data transfer speed when reading and writing to the card?

Checking Sony:
SXS FAQs (http://www.sony.ca/promedia/support.htm)

SPEED

What is the read/write transfer speed?
The following results are realized under normal test conditions using benchmark software:
Read: approx. 800Mbps (approx.100MB/s)
Write: approx. 640Mbps (approx.80MB/s)

And, the following results are realized when copying a file. Transfer speed measured using a movie file size of approx. 6.6GB.
Read: approx.400Mbps (approx.50MB/s)
Write: approx.448Mbps (approx.56MB/s)

I might be wrong but isn't the 800 Mb/s the theoretical bus speed of the SxS card and not the actual data transfer speed when reading and writing to the card?
See wikipedia - ExpressCard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExpressCard) .

SxS cards work via the PCI Express bus, and that has a maximum rated throughput of 2.5Gbs, or 3x what the SxS card is rated at - that's 800Mbs, or 100MBs.

I wouldn't like to try recording an 800Mbs data stream to it, but would expect it to cope well with (say) 400Mbs if everything else was up to it. That's still 8x the 50Mbs used by the PDW700.

That's why it's capable (if the hard drive etc are up to it) of downloading at so many times real time speeds. What this thread shows is that many users would like a choice between that level of performance, and a lower cost/lower performance option. Just be nice to have it via a native card, rather than adaptors.

[EDIT] Just saw your last post Steve. I think the actual results (400Mbs/448Mbs) are with one specific test system, so will vary with different hardware. Interesting to see more than 400Mbs actually being achieved.

Well, here's another combo that seems to work well:

Sandisk Extreme III 30MB/s (no surprises here)

plus this expresscard adapter:

Cables Unlimited Card Reader IOC-9750

(bought that adapter for under $16 on Amazon with free shipping; now the price jumped to over $33. Hmmm..)

Records HQ, including 1080p30, without a hitch.

720p24 overcranked to 40 - no errors; overcranked to 50, error after a few minutes. (After an error, the recording stops; but whatever the video already captured, is saved just fine and is perfectly useable.)

So its performance seems on par with Kensington.

Note that I only tested the combo for a few hours.

Also, oddly, *sometimes* when you turn the camera on, or switch from Camera to Media mode, the cam cannot see the adapter. Taking it out of the slot momentarily, and re-inserting it, solves the issue. It does not bother me too much.

Speed of transfer: filled the 16Gb card with 58min. of video. With Shotput software, transfer from the card/adapter using expresscard slot in my laptop to 2 locations simultaneously (one on local C drive, one across the network on a diff PC) took 42 min, including data verification. So it's a bit faster than real time. With one local copy it'd be significantly faster yet, but I wanted to test my real-world use scenario.

Writing from laptop to the adapter/card combo: 3.2Gb file took 4m 40sec. By comparison, Sandisk SxS 16Gb card took 2min 45 sec.

So it looks like this combo is, roughly, 40% slower than the SxS in terms of write/read.

Since it has a lot of headroom with normal HQ modes, I feel confident using it in camera now.

$160 bought me a 58min HD recording time on solid state media. Ain't that dandy :)

Thanks to all people who did a lot of original testing and research, and who suggested these choices at some point.

I tried the Cables Unlimited adapter. I was slightly flakier than the Kensington, although when it worked it did crank a bit higher and had slightly higher benchmark scores. You can see a previous post where I talk about it. I wound up settling on the Kensington, because it was more stable. They are basically exactly the same form factor but for some reason, in my testing I got less errors with the Kensington overcranked than the Cables Unlimited. It is cheaper though.

Alistair.
I've come to the same conclusion with the 8gb transcend, i've got 3 of them, all have performed faultlessly.
Probably gonna get a few 16gb's now.
Can get 16gb's for £26 or the 8gb's for £12.
That's just ridiculous prices, they might as well just give them away.

Paul.

Paul where can you get them for this price?

Mark, i don't think i can post the name of the supplier on here, (unless chris says it's ok), because they're not a sponsor.
I just tried to pm you but you don't have any contact details in your profile.
Feel free to contact me though, my contact details are on my profile.
The card sellers are genuine people selling genuine cards, i just got myself another couple of 16gb transcends from them.
They also stated that they've got a load of kensington card readers on the way.

Paul.

Mark, i don't think i can post the name of the supplier on here, (unless chris says it's ok), because they're not a sponsor.Go ahead Paul. Thanks for thinking about me though.

Thanks Chris.
Ok guys the shop is called shop4usb, it's based in Bristol.

BUT hang on a minute.
I may have stumbled on a problem.

I just recorded a 1 long clip on the transcend 16gb.
The long clip has been split into 2 clips of 3.5gb and a each,and 1 clip of 700mb and clip browser doesn't see them. The short clip is there ok but not the 2 long clips. I know the long clip has been split into 3 clips, i looked into the bapv folder with windows.
VLC player sees and plays the clips ok though.
I'm copying the files (with windows) to my hard-drive now so i'll see if clip browser can see the clips then, otherwise we won't be able to rewrap. I didn't get this problem with the 8gb trancsend cards, even when clips spanned cards.

Paul.

Clip browser is showing 1 long clip, obviously as it should be, one long clip.
However VLC shows as individual part.
I've never used vlc to play these clips before because it couldn't play, so when vlc showed 3 parts of the 1 long clip i expected clip browser to show the same, but clip browser shows it as it should be, one long clip.
I'm a twat, go and buy your cards. Sorry guys.

Paul.

Paul

Ive searched the site and can't find the cards? Also tried to ring but a recorded message said to email?

Mark

Here's the shop.
I presume it's ok to post a link as chris said it's ok to name them.

eBay UK Shop - shop4usb: Memory Card, USB Flash Drive, MP3 Player (http://stores.ebay.co.uk/shop4usb)

Paul.

Thanks Paul

Do you think this would work?

Transcend 16 GB EXPRESSCARD/34 SOLID STATE DISK review cheap prices 16 GB EXPRESSCARD/34 SOLID STATE DISK Transcend best buy discount online uk shop (http://www.pixmania.co.uk/uk/uk/731643/art/transcend/16-gb-expresscard-34-soli.html?srcid=867)

Mark

Thanks Paul

Do you think this would work?

Transcend 16 GB EXPRESSCARD/34 SOLID STATE DISK review cheap prices 16 GB EXPRESSCARD/34 SOLID STATE DISK Transcend best buy discount online uk shop (http://www.pixmania.co.uk/uk/uk/731643/art/transcend/16-gb-expresscard-34-soli.html?srcid=867)

Mark

No. This will not work. We've been through this here and on other boards.

Got my two kensingtons, the camera ships tomorrow (very hard to clear enough credit for that, almost didn't happen). I will probably just get two Ultra IIs or IIIs. I am very happy with the reduction in cost over SxS and don't want to even think about whether I will get en error or not.

I hope before the camera gets here next week one of you gets to test the 32gb ultra IIs.

If it helps,
I've been using the Kensington and 16GB Extreme III 30MB/s and 4GB Ultra II 15MB/s for over two weeks and have not had one error in any HQ modes.

I'm looking forward to checking out the 32GB Ultra II 15MB/s.

Steven, I'm wondering how long does it take you to offload one full 16Gb card to a PC with Kensington adapter - did you ever time it?

I use a SDHC card reader to offload to the PC. I do not have an expresscard reader for the Kensington. The Sony SxS reader will not work with the Kensington. The Sony SxS reader is PCIe based and the Kensington is USB based.

Using a PC SDHC reader, you can expect the offload to be "almost" twice as slow opposed to the offload from the SxS reader (Sony).

I'm not really worried about this 2X transfer rate knowing that I can buy almost a DOZEN 16GB Ultra II SDHC cards for the cost of ONE 16GB SxS.

I can take my time off loading at a convenient time.

I got 42min offload time* for a 58min footage from my adapter/card combo into PC.

Just wondering if that is normal.

On comparison, how long does it take to offload a full 16Gb SxS card, do you know?

--------
* using Shotput software, saving to 2 locations simultaneously - one local drive, another over the network. This obviously slowed things down a bit vs. offloading to just just one local drive, I suppose; but still, I thought it'd be a bit faster.

I ordered a Kensington 7-in-1 from NCIX here in Canada. The part number here is K33407CA. I have a Sandisk 2 gig Ultra II. It did not work. My EX3 comes up with an "Unknown Media" error.

So I put the Kensington in my Dell Vostro 1500 and it was recognized as a USB device. Is this what others have had the Kensington recognized as when it was installing? Read and write speed with the 2 gig Ultra II was around 9.5 mBps.

Read speed with the Sony 8 gig SxS on the Vostro was around 78 mBps and write speed was around 55 mBps.

I guess I have to try a later model Sandisk Ultra II to see if it gets recognized.

I got 42min offload time* for a 58min footage from my adapter/card combo into PC.

Just wondering if that is normal.




Alex, download the Crystal Disk Mark utility I posted reference to and check your data write and read using the Kensington/SDHC combo.

Based on your numbers, it only appears around a 6MB/s or so transfer to you PC. This is horrible. It's not far from real time.
The EX capturing HQ to the Kensington/SDHC combo is hanging around an average of 4.6MB/s data write.

So, Unless there's something odd about the Kensington/SDHC card in your PC's expresscard reader, do not use it to transfer footage to your PC.

If your using SanDisk Extreme III 30MB/s cards, they can transfer to the PC at 19MB/s.
Also, the SanDisk Ultra II 15MB/s transfer to the PC at 15MB/s.

So, you can cut your transfer time by almost 3X (using the Extreme III 30MB/s) by using a simple SDHC reader. Even the Ultra II 15MB/s SDHC cards are over 2X what your doing now using the simple SDHC reader.

Sounds like it is worth it to get the extreme III. I am leaning towards that, but I go back and forth on the subject.

The Ultra II with the Kensington is so close to the Extreme III and cost half as less.
It makes sense to go with the Ultra II 15MB/s SDHC cards.

Alex, download the Crystal Disk Mark utility I posted reference to and check your data write and read using the Kensington/SDHC combo

Mine is actually Cables Unlimited Card Reader IOC-9750 adapter + Sandisk Extreme III 30MB/s card combo.

(I do not have SDHC reader. Tried to use my Nikon D80 as SDHC reader via its USB port, but it appears to be too slow for that purpose.)

Crystal Mark readings of my adapter/card combo (5 tests):
Read Seq: 19.38; 512K: 19.17; 4K: 3.706 MB/s
Write: Seq: 15.80; 512K: 3.344; 4K: 0.033 MB/s

On comparison, SxS Sandisk card, 16Gb, rendered:
Read Seq: 99.53; 512K: 96.14; 4K: 9.84 MB/s
Write: Seq: 79.19; 512K: 7.297; 4K: 0.057 MB/s

And my laptop's C drive rendered:
Read Seq: 26.79; 512K: 15.37; 4K: 0.276 MB/s
Write: Seq: 25.48; 512K: 16.04; 4K: 0.584 MB/s

Also, I made a point of testing SxS card with exactly the same footage, exactly the same way (Shotput to 2 locations), that took 42min to offload from my el cheapo IOC/Sandisk III combo.

SxS took 37min.

So I gather, the limiting factor in my particular setup is not really the card/adapter combo but the fact that I'm offloading to 2 locations simultaneously, one being over the network.

SxS is only 12% faster in this scenario.

The Ultra II with the Kensington is so close to the Extreme III and cost half as less.
It makes sense to go with the Ultra II 15MB/s SDHC cards.



Yea I think I am going to buy them in town so I can return them quickly if I get an error. My only concern is I will be using at least the 16gb carbs... you never know.

Erik,
Using the Kensington, you should not have an error with the 16GB Extreme III 30MB/s, or the 16GB Ultra II 15MB/s. Both of these cards have been tested by several with NO errors.

I've been using the Extreme III and Ultra II for three weeks with NO errors.

Yesterday I recieved my first 16 GB Ultra II after successfully testing the 8 GB Extreme III for more than a week.
I have since run into all kinds of strange errors and using the card is out of the question. Now - I thought this card was tested and cleared so I am hoping that I got a defective card. This is what is happening. I will do more tests as soon as I have the time.

At first the camera did not see the card at all. I tried formating it in the camera but it only went up to 76% and then gave me an error saying that it could not format the card. I then managed to format it in my laptop and after that the camera saw the card and I could record on it.
Next time I turned on the camera the slot where the card was did not report the card as mounted. I switched to playback mode and got the error message "media needs to be restored". However I never got the option to restore it.

Since then it has been working on and off. Recording seems to work well but when switching to playback mode I get media error or no clips. Sometimes my laptop also has problems seeing the card. I don't know if this is due to a corrupted file structure after having it in the camera or that this indicates a faulty card.

To sum it all up - the card is far from reliable and does not behave the slightest like my ExtremeIII 8 GB card which has been working flawlessly. Also the fact that I cannot restore the card and that the camera refuses to format the card are problems I don't recognize from this thread. Since I have been recording long clips without media errors it does not seem to have to do with the speed of the card. It is more like problems with the file structure or something similar.

What are your thoughts on this? Faulty card? How can I test it to be sure?

Definately sounds like a dodgy card to me.
My missus bought a memory card once,sandisk, for her mobile phone, off ebay, supposedly from a proper ebay shop.
When she took pictures (recorded) fine, no problems, but when she viewed the pics after, every pic was corrupt.
When i put this card into my desktop pc's card reader to view the pics, the desktop pc instantly crashed ! I kid you not, just instantly shut down, black screen the lot. I tried the card in another pc and that also shut down, so that was definately a dodgy card, which is why i don't buy cards from ebay or online anymore.
However i have found one ebay shop which happens to be about 1 mile from my house so i went to the shop/warehouse and bought some cards, over the counter, they all work with my EX1. Transcend 8GB and 16GB. No problems.

Paul.

Where did you order it?

It's been known that there are fake Ultra II SDHC cards out there, so be careful.
Also, is it the Ultra II 15MB/s version?

Check this out:
SanDisk Ultra II fakes - Google Search (http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS291&q=SanDisk+Ultra+II+fakes)

You are the first to report an issue. It may be defective, or you bought a fake.

If Brian Rhodes is reading this... you may want to add this combo to the list of Working ones for EX1:

Cables Unlimited Card Reader IOC-9750 adapter (http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?ie=UTF8&keywords=IOC-9750&tag=mo7iescom-20&index=electronics&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) + Sandisk Extreme III 30MB/s (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/580125-REG/SanDisk_SDSDX3_016GR_A31_16GB_Extreme_III_.html/BI/2187/KBID/2932)

Two days of testing, feels solid, no errors ever. Even did interval recording etc.
Note: switching camera from Camera to Media mode, sometimes card may not be seen. Camera says "no card". Simply pop the adapter out, then re-insert it back in; this always works and the card will become visible.

What a great day today has been. EX1 returned from Sony Pencoed in just 2 days fully sorted out and firmware upgraded at 10-30 this morning. Kensington Express reader arrives at 11am with Sandisk 8gb cards. 11-05 all working well in EX1. Thank you all for your investigative work it is very much appreciated. Who is going to design a small plastic cover to fit in the card opening?

Who is going to design a small plastic cover to fit in the card opening?

That's a good idea.

The great thing is the Kensington is so inexpensive. We can toss it aside when something else happens by that allows the door to close.

Exactly Steve. I ordered 4 kensingtons for now as I think the SD cards could easily be lost. It is a feeling of liberation now that cards are cheap. Will still use SxS for really important shoots but can now shoot with Sandisk Extreme II/III and not bother to download during a normal days shooting. I am sure that when the news gets out it will mean bucket loads of EX1/3 being sold.

Steve--which sxs Sony reader are you saying is PCIe based? Will the Kensington work with the SBAC-10 USB Sony sxs reader, as it's a usb interface? Anyone compared downloads with the SD cards in the usb reader vs Sxs in the same reader?

Previously, I'd been shopping for an Expresscard reader that wasn't USB. How would the speed of a PCIe based SxS reader accessing the Kensington/SanDisk solution compare to the speed of a USB based SD card reader? Is it worth the effort?

My understanding (correct me if I'm wrong), the expresscard bus is capable of using one or both of the following data buses: USB and/or PCIe.

The Kensington expresscard is USB based only and will not work with the Sony SBAC-10 which is PCIe based ONLY.

My understanding is the original EX1 software (prior to current 1.1), only allows PCIe communication. This is the high speed comm used with the SxS cards.

My guess is Sony enabled USB to allow their new PHU-60K viso capture drive to work with the EX series. This drive is obviously USB based.

Sorry to be so thick, Steve, but I'm still confused. The PHU-60 connects ONLY with a USB cable to the Mac. It won't work with the Kensington ?

No, the kensington is an expresscard to SDHC media adapter.

I meant the SBAC-10 USB reader.

I have not tried, but I'm "almost" 100% sure the Kensington (USB based) will not work with the SBAC-10 PCIe based only (I believe).

I must be a big nerd because I find this whole thread quite exciting. :) I look forward to reading it when I get home... LOL As soon as I get the camera I will test out some Optima PNY 4gb class-4 SDHC I have laying around.

Great Erik.
Report back. Also run the Crystal Disk Mark utility.
Watch it run though. Don't just wait for the results.
Because it runs each test five times, it only takes one write or read to drop below the required data rate and the EX will fail.

The SanDisk devices have a sustained data write and read above 15MB/s, this is what makes these SDHC a stable choice.

tested it.. the numbers only went up and down by a few tenths during the test. Are these good? I gotta go back at look at the other results.

Seq= R 19.37 - W 7.561
512k= R 19.15 - W 2.234
4k= R 4.142 - W 0.024

Erik

Here's a re-post of my results for the comparison.

Mine is actually Cables Unlimited Card Reader IOC-9750 adapter + Sandisk Extreme III 30MB/s card combo.

Crystal Mark readings of my adapter/card combo (5 tests):
Read Seq: 19.38; 512K: 19.17; 4K: 3.706 MB/s
Write: Seq: 15.80; 512K: 3.344; 4K: 0.033 MB/s

On comparison, SxS Sandisk card, 16Gb, rendered:
Read Seq: 99.53; 512K: 96.14; 4K: 9.84 MB/s
Write: Seq: 79.19; 512K: 7.297; 4K: 0.057 MB/s

It would appear that *your* card's read speed is good, but write speed is not enough? I'm sure Steven knows better though.

Erik,
Thanks for the quick turn around on your tests.

I agree with Alex, you may be a bit on the slow side for write speed.

The 16GB Ultra II 15MB/s SDHC sustained write speed is over 15MB/s and only sells for less than $70 USD.

Having said that, your PNY may work in HQ modes.
The normal sustained write in HQ mode max is around 40mbps = 5MB/s,
But, sustained data rates is only one aspect.

Check it out and report back.
Try the overcrank test.
The SanDisk can overcrank to 40FPS without error. I believe this calculates near 8.3MB/s write speed.
So these cards have decent headroom for HQ modes.

Thanks Alex,
Man, those SxS cards are fast!