Steven-

So how reliable do you think this solution is? More reliable than PHU? But perhaps not as reliable as SxS? I know you are still testing, but would the SDHC solution be acceptable for paid-absolutely-can't-lose-my-footage gigs?

--Nathan

I'd say (knocking very very hard on wood) that after one week of trying I'd trust a top quality SD-card more than Sonys harddrive.
I have tried to get my Sandisk SD-card to fail in all manners I could think of without being able to. It can do a whole card of overcrank in 48 fps which suggests a headroom of almost 100%. The only problem I see with the SD-cards is not being able to close the door of my EX1.

But - I must add - testing has only been going on for a little more than a week. I'd wait a few more weeks to be certain that no strange problems arise.

Well, PLEASE do not go on just my word.

I've been testing the EX1 with:

Kensington 7-in-1 Expresscard reader
16GB SanDisk Extreme III 35MB/s version SDHC (just released)
4GB SanDisk Ultra II 15MB/s SDHC

I've been trying all HQ modes with NO errors at all.

Remember S&Q overcrank mode is not "suggested" with the Kensington/SDHC card combo.
Why do I say suggested, well with the above mentioned SDHC memory cards listed, I've been able to overcrank in S&Q mode to 40FPS at 720 24P wihout an error.

Having said that I DO NOT suggest using S&Q overcranking. At 45FPS ( 720 24P ) it errors.
This is NOT enough headroom for safe overcranking. If you need to overcrank for slo-mo, use your SxS card.

As I mentioned before, the great thing about knowing this combo can overcrank at 40FPS, it shows us the amount of headroom we have over 35mbps (40mbps max) which is the HQ modes.

The data rate maintains HQ mode (35mbps) during playback of any HQ file regardless if it is overcranked (slo-mo when played back at 24FPS). Therefore, the data rate written during S&Q overcrank must be increased proportional to maintain 35mbps during playback.

The HQ data rate maintains 35mbps, but can hit a max of 40mbps. So, if we were to overcrack twice the framerate of 24FPS, we would set the EX1 to 48FPS. To do this we would have to be able to write at twice the HQ data rate 35mbps (40mpbs max) or 70mbps (80mbps max.)

We can only reach an overcrank of 40FPS (720 24P), which equates to 1.6 times the initial 24FPS framerate. SO, since the data rate written in S&Q mode is proportional to the base rate, in this example HQ mode (35mbps) which tops out at 40mbps, 40mbps x 1.6 = 64mbps (max)

You can see why this combo works well knowing that HQ mode tops out at 40mbps and the combo Kensington/SDHC (listed above) is capable of 64mbps max. This seems like a safe amount of headroom for HQ modes and of course even safer for SQ.

Ola, are you using Sandisk Ultra II, or the new Extreme III?

The Extreme III failed at overcrank of 45, but oddly, I believe the Ultra II ran at 45.

Either way, our numbers are hanging on the edge at this overcrank data rate.

But you're right. I'd say we are safe running HQ modes with this decent headroom.

Based on what I'm reading regarding the Sony drive, it apparently (for some odd reason) may have less headroom, or some other issue.

Again, like yourself I have not been able to get the Kensington/Sandisk SDHC (i've listed) to fail. It works great and spans across both Kensington cards I have inserted in my EX1 with no problems.

I'm looking forward to hearing about or trying the new SanDisk 32GB Ultra II 15MB/s SDHC cards. It's hard to believe I will be able to two 32GB cards (64GB)loaded in the EX1 for under $400!

Keith, I was surprised by the performance of the Transcend 16Gb cards. I had expected something more like the 8Gb cards, which like you I find work upto 38fps. There may not be different model numbers but I wouldn't be surprised if small improvements creep into production runs. Maybe they are produced in different factories. Who knows? Either way, even the lowly 8Gb cards at 38fps are plenty fast enough for HQ.

Ola, are you using Sandisk Ultra II, or the new Extreme III?


I use an 8 GB Extreme III and like I mentioned above it managed to overcrank all the way up to 48 fps in 720p 25 mode. Even considering that you ran @24 fps that is a little bit better and gives even more headroom.

It would be very interesting to hear what the Sony harddrive can handle! Please, anyone with a PHU-60K, would you test it out. What fps can it achieve?!

The Sony hard drive cannot over/undercrank. This is documented in the product literature.

Yes, but I seriously doubt it disables overcrank when the EX1 or EX3 is set to overcrank.
The thought is it can overcrank to a certain FPS before it errors.
Is this not the case?

Who has one that can actually try this?

Set the camera to 720 24P, turn ON S&Q, slowly increment from 24FPS, 25FPS, 26FPS, ect... until you determine when it fails.

Another experiment today...

EX3 with Kensington reader + SanDisk Extreme III 16gb card

S&Q Motion-- No problem shooting 24fps/40. At 45 fps, got media error and had to restore card. Recorded 24/45 to SxS card with no problem, of course.

Then copied the 24/45 clip to the SanDisk card in camera.

Mounted SanDisk card on MacPro via a USB2 reader. The 24/45 clip played back perfectly in the Sony Clip Browser 2.0 s/w reading directly from the card-- not even transferred to an internal drive or a raid. So, the bottleneck is definitely with the EX ability to write rather than the card being able to sustain the read.

What if you record 24p/60 overcranked on SxS, transfer to Sandisk, and try to play that off Sandisk?

The HQ playback rate is always 35mbps, even recorded overcranked HQ.

The higher data rate is needed during overcrank recording in order to maintain the HQ 35mbps playback at original frame rate.

I've got the 8gb sandisk extreme 3 and a few transcend 8gb,no problems so far.
I'm thinking of getting a few of the 16gb transcend, is everybody happy so far with the 16gb transcend ?

Thanks.
Paul.

Has anybody tried one of the transcend 32gb sxs cards yet ?
I can get them for about £80.
2 of them in the camera shooting in HQ = 8hours, with no card changing to worry about.

Paul.

2 of them in the camera shooting in HQ = 8hours, with no card changing to worry about.

4 hours, surely?

Even so, 4x Kensingtons, 4x 32 GB cards < 2x 8 GB SxS and = 1 day conference shoot.

And costs less than the CF card device launched recently.

Conference shoot on 2x EX with no tape ingest = Nirvanah.

Sorry Chris, this calls for a smiley - :-D

Yes Matt, you're maths is correct, what was i thinking !.
I coud get the same amount of storage using transcend 16gb cards for the same price though.
Less footage to loose though if 1 card goes down for whatever reason.

4X8gb
or
2x16gb
or
1x32gb
or
all the same price but 4x8gb is safer.

Paul.

This is great to read about. I really don't expect to do much with over/undercrank, so I am simply concerned with the reliability of the SDHC cards in the EX1/3 in HQ mode. If this is really solid, then I'm going for it, but I'm going to follow these threads very closely. We all need something that WON'T fail. Exciting stuff - being able to do 64 GB for under $400 is amazing!

Please keep testing/posting this stuff. It is VERY helpful.

Yes, I agree that when you need slo-mo, just throw in your SxS card.

We are solely using the overcrank to evaluate the combination expresscard adapter and SDHC data rate when used in the EX1 or EX3.

I've been testing everyday since 9/17 and have yet to have one error using the Kensington 7-in-1 with the new SanDisk Extreme III 30MB/s version SDHC and also the SanDisk Ultra II 15M/s SDHC.


At this time, althought the new SanDisk Extreme III 30MB/s SDHC is technically capable of sustaining faster data rates (30MB/s over the Ultra II's 15MB/s), the combo adaptor and SDHC card is only allowing up to 8.3MB/s (When used in the EX). Therefore, the Ultra II works equal to the new Extreme SDHC with this combo. Also the Ultra II is half the cost of the Extreme III.


I'd be REAL interested in someone who has an expresscard slot on their PC to download the Crystal Disk Mark data rate speed tester and check the speed of the Kensington 7-in-1 adaptor with the SanDisk Ultra II, Extreme III, Trascend SDHC cards.

Crystal Dew World - Software - CrystalDiskMark (http://crystalmark.info/software/CrystalDiskMark/index-e.html)

If the write speed is greater than 8.3MB/s, than we will know the data rate is limited by Sony.

In order for S&Q mode to work its highest overcrank data rate, we would have to be able to sustain 12.5MB/s.

I would not be surprised if Sony crippled the data rate for USB 2.0. I sure hope this is not the case.

If Sony is worried about their SxS cards, they need not be worried. They still will sell them to those who will use nothing else due to they offer fast data transfers to your PC.

Also, Sony should also realize that this combo expresscard / SDHC is a real selling point for their cameras! They should offer an expresscard adaptor that allows the EX1 memory door to close with the SDHC cards inserted.

This would be one great push for their marketing.

Panasonic and Kensington no work... too many errors
Moving to the audience on this one, good luck all


???
I'm not sure if I understand your post?

The Panasonic SDHC cards were never tested to work?

Run the overcrank test that's been outlined in these threads to determine what kind of headroom there is for the SDHC you are testing.

Based on you are having errors, it's apparent that the Panasonic SDHC card you tested is not capable of sustaining even 5MB/s.

HQ mode max data rate is around 40mbps which equates to 5MB/s (40mbps/8 = 5MB/s)

The new SanDisk 16GB Extreme III 30MB/s version SDHC and SanDisk Ultra II 15MB/s are working are capable of writing at 8.3MB/s in the EX with the Kensington 7-in-1. This is decent headromm since HQ mode tops out at writing at 5MB/s

Therefore, unless we're just testing for inexpensive SDHC cards, at this time I do not recommend any other SDHC cards.

Right now, the smartest SDHC card to buy is the 16GB SanDisk Ultra II 15MB/s. Man, these are only $60 !! A great buy.
I've used this with the Kensington everyday testing the heck out of it even spanning across cards and have never had one error.

Also, Sony should also realize that this combo expresscard / SDHC is a real selling point for their cameras! They should offer an expresscard adaptor that allows the EX1 memory door to close with the SDHC cards inserted.

This would be one great push for their marketing.

This would be the smartest thing to do for Sony. They would sell loads of cameras. We customers would be more happy, Sony sells more, profits go up, shareholders are even more happy, EX developers get a raise in salary, they design better products, we customers are happier than ever, Sony sells more and more,...................

Just came across this thread. This discussion may allow me to get the EX1 I want. Is it clear which firmware versions this will work with and which it will not? Do we know which version EX1s purchased now will have?

It will only work with firmware 1.11 for the EX1. It has only been around for a month or so. I would check firmware on the cam you're buying to make sure it does not have older firmware.

I am still trying to make up my mind on what cards to buy.
These are my candidates:

16 GB Transcend SDHC
16 GB Sandisk Ultra II SDHC
16 GB Sandisk Extreme III SDHC

They are all extremely cheap compared to SxS-memory and I can definately afford all of them. However - if there is no practical difference in performance in the EX1 from these three cards I don't want to spend more than twice as much on Extreme III-cards without reason. I'd rather gett twice as many. :-)

The fact that Steven is recommending the Ultra II card is reassuring but I don't want to be cheap IF it might lead to a media failure in the future that I could have avoided by buying the Extreme III card.

So - I guess my question is, Steven (and others): which are the overcrank record fps on these cards? I cannot recall a comparison between the 16 GB ultra II and the 16 GB extreme III in this thread. I am trying to figure out if the speed difference between the ultras and extremes is having any effect at all in the camera.

Transcend 16gb does not seem to work reliably.

I have had success with SanDisk Extreme III 16gb in all modes, including overcranking up to 24/40fps.

I have not tested 16gb Ultra II but reports here are positive.

I await 32gb Ultra II. No idea when it will be released and SanDisk has not yet replied to my query as a journalist.

Yes Andrew, I gave up with the AFT adapter.
You should try the Kensington with your Panasonic SDHC.
...
If/when you get the Kensington memory, let us know if it works with the Panny memory.

Yes, I was referring to the same Panasonic SDHC 8GB card I was talking about in the other thread regarding this. (you guys are spanning a lot of threads on this subject)

I thought this Panasonic might work being labeled compatible with AVCHD cameras. But that codec is only around 3mb/s (if i read wikipedia correctly) While the card claims 20mb/s...

With this combo, I did have one somewhat scary moment. When I tried formatting the Panasonic in the Kensington, it would consistently hang at 79%. So I switched and formatted in the AFT adaptor. It worked, but when I went back to using the Kensington.. all I got was a black lcd with "STBY" -- nothing but pulling the power would remove this error. Once it was 'working' (Pana & Kensington) errors in 720P HQ mode as well as any flavor of S&Q.

... unless we're just testing for inexpensive SDHC cards, at this time I do not recommend any other SDHC cards.
This wasn't at all an inexpensive SDHC card. Not at $72 for 8gb.

To answer other questions I've received, I'm not entirely convinced that this is a safe route. Fun for play, but I wouldn't do it on a paying gig. I've had a few issues with SD cards in the past, and they just doesn't give me a totally warm and fuzzy feeling. Maybe after you fellas have a few error free months, I'll get back in; but for now I'm an interested spectator.

On a side note, I even tried another route... a PCexpress to USB adapter and a FireWire 800 adapter. Thinking was, attach a portable hard drive, with power, and have a 500Gb solution. The el cheapo USB adapter just didn't work, while the Belkin FW800 gave me an improper media error. I would think, there is an option that would make this work as well. Maybe attaching a larger drive to the PHU-60k connect cable, if they are available as a replacement part?

Transcend 16gb does not seem to work reliably.

Ned, what did you find unreliable about the Transcend 16GB? I really haven't had a problem other than one strange error when I switched from slomo to normal speed and I'm not sure if that was related to the card or not. It was easily recoverable and none of the recordings on the Transcend card was affected.

I've once had a 'media' problems with a SxS card when offloading to a Mac then popping it back into the Sony. Reformatting it seemed to correct it.

On the Transcend 16GB, other than it can't go as slomo as the Extreme, seems ok so far...

I think if you have mission critical shoots, and if you're a professional that can't afford to have anything go wrong ever, and you can afford it however many SxS cards you need for a shoot, the SxS is obviously the way to go.

However, it's fun to explore alternatives, and it's interesting to hear prospective buyers deciding on purchasing a EX1 or EX3 because of the possibility of cheaper 'off the shelf' media alternatives. I bet Sony sells a lot more EX1s and EX3s, if only because of that alternative. We are quickly entering an age where tape is obsolete. In five years SDHC or something like it may be so cheap that replaces tape or optical as an archival media.

I recall reading either here or on another board that the Transcend 16gb was not performing reliably in HQ mode. Now, it is entirely possible that I misread the post since so much information has been flying around that I'm about on overload.

I'm not entirely convinced that this is a safe route. Fun for play, but I wouldn't do it on a paying gig. I've had a few issues with SD cards in the past, and they just doesn't give me a totally warm and fuzzy feeling. Maybe after you fellas have a few error free months, I'll get back in; but for now I'm an interested spectator.



Then you may want to stick with the SxS cards.
You have to use the cards suggested unless you're up for checking data rates with the software I reccomended along with the overcrank test.

As far as SDHC cards, I've been using these for years thowing them in and out of cameras and have never had one issue. In fact, the new Nikon D90 uses the new Extreme III 30MB/s SDHC which Nikon worked with SanDisk on this SDHC card to make sure it would offer the high data rate needed for the D90.

Again, when used with the Kensington 7-in-1, the two recommended cards - the 4GB Ultra II 15MB/s and new 16GB Extreme III 30MB/s version offers 8.3MB/s sustained data rate which is a decent amount over the EX HQ MAX data rate of 5MB/s. The normal HQ data rate of the EX is 35mbps or 4.375MB/s.

Myself and others who are using the listed SDHC cards and Kensington have not had any errors.
In the last 11 days of testing, I've logged almost more time testing this combo than I've had since I bought the camera! LOL

I've been running this thing crazy even spanning with two Kensington Adaptors.

I've been happy using two AFT adapters without errors for a while now, with the door closed - which is cool. I'm using Transcend 8gb cards and a Patriot 16gb - both fail at relatively low S&Q around 36 - but then I'm not fussed as these cards are cheap, and both class 6. The Patriot shows seq: 18.57 and 11.53 512: 18.48 and 2.85 4K: 4.28 and 0.024. with crystaldiskmark.

I've run full cards, hard starts and stops, slot switching - no errors.

Paul

so, the Ultra IIs work as well as the new Ultra IIIs? I want to pick up a couple of these
for this weekends gig. i would love to have to not dump cards during the day.

AFT adapters

What are these? Please post a link, thanks...

First of all to all: THANK YOU FOR YOUR INVESTIGATION

I just want to be shure: With the Kensington 7-1 I in an EX 3 I will be able close the door?

Markus

It's the AFT PRO Express 7 in 1 card reader item number 65100704 - as mentioned earlier in this thread, it's maybe not as fast as the Kensington, and apparently will not work with the Sandisk Extreme III cards - but for me, shooting normal HQ or even SP, it's perfectly OK running with cheap media, and I use my SXS cards for overcranking - and a closed door on the EX1 in the sand and dust here, is a must.

I've not tested the Kensington, as a screw up in delivery meant mine went to another planet and then sent back to the suppliers - I'm expecting them soon, so I can test their relative speeds thru' the express slot on my laptop.

Paul

First of all to all: THANK YOU FOR YOUR INVESTIGATION

I just want to be shure: With the Kensington 7-1 I in an EX 3 I will be able close the door?

Markus

Yes. You can close the door of the EX-3 with the Kensington adapter

Thanks Ned, at the end of the week I will get my stuff.

I have the AFT. It was one of the first cards I tested.

It failed running HQ modes. It's was intermittent using the Patriot SDHC
Also, the 16GB Patriot SDHC I tested, I noticed that the data write speeds
fluctuated.

At that time I had ordered the new SanDisk Extreme III 30MB/s version SDHC. This SDHC card in the AFT gets a unrecognized media error. It does not work at all.

At that time, I also had the Kensington which worked great with the new Extreme III SDHC.
So, I gave up on the AFT expresscard adaptor. I bought the Ultra II SDHC after I had gave up on the AFT and never tried it with the AFT.

Well, after reading Paul's post, I decided to take back out my AFT and try it with the SanDisk Ultra II 4GB SDHC.

Oddly, it worked fine for a while (20 minutes of mixed testing) and even overcranked for a while up to 40FPS.
BUT, as time progressed, it started to crash and have restore media errors. It got to a point it was even failing running HQ modes.

At one time it would not even restore or format the Ultra II SDHC. I had to format it with my PC.

This is odd. If Paul is having success after long testing, I'd be interested how well the SanDisk Ultra II will perform in his AFT cards. The SanDisk Ultra II is capable of sustaining 40FPS overcrank, so I'm wondering if the Ultra II will offer 40FPS overcrank with Paul's after long testing.

Is it possible my AFT card has a problem? If so, it's acting like it perform well when initially used. Maybe a thermal issue? - I don't know. But, I wish I had another to try.

Maybe, I'll order another AFT.

I tossed in my Kensington & Ultra II and fired up overcrank at 40FPS. This works well with no issues. Quick start and stops, long runs ... I can't get it to fail.

Paul, I'd like to hear more from you on testing the AFT. If you can get your hands on the SanDisk Ultra II 15MB/s, I'd be interested if you can sustain 40FPS overcrank. Also try quick start and stops. Test this overcrank at 40FPS for over an hour. I'd be real interested if yours works.. If so, my AFT card is defective. I'm hoping this is the case.

Steven, can you confirm that your tests with the extreme III cards showed a failure with the AFT card, as I have on order, 2 16gb extreme III 's as well as the long lost Kensingtons.

I managed to get a media restore error today with the Patriot running at 36 overcrank - out in the sun for 2 hours doing timelapse tests as well - maybe a heat issue??

No failures yet on normal HQ either with the Transcend 8gb or the Patriot.

I'm stuck waiting for the mail, it's so hard to buy anything here!

Paul

The new SanDisk Extreme III 30MB/s SDHC cards do not work in the AFT PROExpress-7.

Maybe you missed it in my initial tests I posted. I know it's getting hard to follow.

It may be that the Patriot can only overcrank to 33FPS or so?

As I mentioned in my last post, if you can get your hands on the SanDisk Ultra II 15MB/s SDHC.
The Kensington will run 40FPS without any issues.

Try to get your hands on an Ultra II SDHC.

With the testing ongoing, it is in fact confusing to keep up with what to do if one wants to jump into this route right now of using cheaper cards with adapters before the testing is complete.

It is too early for a Sticky.

However, it would be extremely helpful to everyone if the original poster (Brian Rhodes) would update the initial post to reflect a summary of the latest findings as we go along.

I realize that is perhaps an imposition on Brian, but I don't think it too bold to say that all of us would really really appreciate it if Brian would do that for us.

Thanks,

John

I recall reading either here or on another board that the Transcend 16gb was not performing reliably in HQ mode. Now, it is entirely possible that I misread the post since so much information has been flying around that I'm about on overload.

The negative report was the incident I mentioned, probably from me. The very first card I used was Transcend 8GB card, which I 'bricked' while trying to format it in the Sony. I haven't had that problem with the 16GB version. I don't think anybody else has reported problems with the 16GB version other that it's slower than the Extreme III.

The negative report was the incident I mentioned, probably from me. The very first card I used was Transcend 8GB card, which I 'bricked' while trying to format it in the Sony. I haven't had that problem with the 16GB version. I don't think anybody else has reported problems with the 16GB version other that it's slower than the Extreme III.

I read about someone who had problems with the Transend 16 GB card. Apparently long recordings could become corrupt without the camera giving warnings on problems with the recording.

First of all to all: THANK YOU FOR YOUR INVESTIGATION

I just want to be shure: With the Kensington 7-1 I in an EX 3 I will be able close the door?

Markus


YES you will be able to close the door on the EX3.

I really want to find an adapter that works as well as the Kensington but allows for the door to be closed on the EX1.
Has anyone tried this Synchrotech adapter?

ExpressCard 34 to Multiple Memory Card Adapter, Synchrotech (http://www.synchrotech.com/products-expc/expresscard-memory-card-adapters_02.html)

Hi Ola, that adapter has the same dimensions at the Kensington.

Here is what I've experienced with the AFT adapter:

With the Sandisk Extreme III I got errors, I can't remember exactly which ones but basically so often that I decided it was too unreliable.

On a lark I tried it with the Transcend 16GB a few days ago. And to my amazement, it seemed to work. However, with more testing I decided it was too unreliable even with the Transcend 16GB. I found the problems to be intermittent, but enough for me to not want to chance using the AFT. Sometimes I could not format it in the EX1, it would hang at 0% other times it worked ok. Sometimes I could record clips with no problem, other times, I would get a media error message. It would be awesome if it worked, being the one reader I know about that allows the EX1 door to close, but using it is too flakey for me. That is why I'm surprised with Paul Newman's reports that it works well for him with the Transcend 8 GB cards.

Hi Ola, that adapter has the same dimensions at the Kensington.

Yes, i realise that but according to the page I linked to it has (quote) "Push-In Push-Out Connector For Easy Removal".
That suggests that the SD card would fit deeper inside the card allowing the door to close.

I cannot recall reading about anybody testing this adapter yet, or am I wrong?

Yes, i realise that but according to the page I linked to it has (quote) "Push-In Push-Out Connector For Easy Removal".
That suggests that the SD card would fit deeper inside the card allowing the door to close.

I cannot recall reading about anybody testing this adapter yet, or am I wrong?

All Expresscards have the same external dimensions. This allows them to sit flush when inserted into a Expresscard reader. The picture looks a lot like the casing of the AFT adapter, which does allow the door to close but I've found is flakey. There could be different firmware / chips in the card that might make it work better than the AFT. If you do order it, please let us know the results.

how many adapters are you guys buying to use? 1 of 2? a pair of 16gb
is the cats meow.

how many adapters are you guys buying to use? 1 of 2? a pair of 16gb
is the cats meow.

I ordered 2, I plan on using them together. I'll keep a SxS card handy though. Since this topic is directly related, I am still learning Vegas... how to you under and over crank through software? I heard you get better results that way anyhow.

With the Sandisk Extreme III I got errors, I can't remember exactly which ones but basically so often that I decided it was too unreliable.



Since the Extreme III does not work at all in the AFT expresscard adaptor, maybe you forgot how it failed.

Until I hear from someone regarding using the SanDisk Ultra II SDHC in the AFT, I would not trust the AFT adaptor.

My AFT works good for about 20 minutes before it fails. It seems like it may be a thermal problem, but without buying another or hearing from someone who has the AFT and Ultra II, I'll never know.

I can say that I've been testing the Kensington with the SanDisk Ultra II 4GB SDHC and the SanDisk 16GB Extreme III 30MB/s version SDHC for about two weeks with NO errors!

i wish these tests were conclusive before i bought 8 of the Lexar SSD cards. oh well, at least I can close the door, and still have 6hrs worth capture time, even if it is at 1080i60
(since my other camera is a Z1)