We'll have to test the Delkin more. Right now, it appears a quality control issue.

Brian, Robert - I think for overcranking, we'll simply use the 8Gb SxS card that comes with EX1 anyway, included free with the camera.

It may feel like the SxS card that came with the camera is free but it isn't. You paid for it.

We'll have to test the Delkin more. Right now, it appears a quality control issue.

I have 3 on the way and I assume a good number of people jumped on the Dekins last week as well when there was a good deal of evidence these things worked. In any event, we'll know in a few weeks once people run them through the paces.

Nick,

contact me, i can tell you how to get some cards in australia,
rob.

I bought 2 Delkins at the beginning of the week got them Thur., 1 worked the other was bad from the getgo. The one that worked worked flawlessly but it's a bit picky how you insert the cards. If you hold it by the flat sides the SD card won't insert properly and will give you errors but if you hold the adapter by the narrow sides then the card inserts properly and no problems. Works every time! I can't wait for more stock so I can get 4-6 more Delkin adapters plus get my bad one replaced.

...whatever the new adapter Chris is working on, he has a leeway of beta-testing it with people on this thread before mass-marketing that new adapter. And it better be reliable like Kensington :)I talked face to face today with one of the top people in that company (can't name them just yet... they'll issue an announcement when they're ready, that's their own call to make and not mine). They're perfect for the job -- it's just a matter of how quickly they can do it what with the end of the year and all. And yes I certainly will recommend to them that certain key contributors to this thread have the opportunity to beta-test it and put it through the paces. Keep your fingers crossed,

Chris is the new card a full SXS type or an adapter card?

i had kensingtons on order from 3 places, cancelled them all once I got the
Delkins, that still leaves me only with 2. I might dump some of my Lexar SSDs
for some more adapters.

Dean, I think Chris is working on the adapter just like Kensington, but SHORTER so it'd fit inside EX1 compartment with the SDHC card in it, allowing EX1's door to close properly.

Dean, I think Chris is working on the adapter just like Kensington, but SHORTER so it'd fit inside EX1 compartment with the SDHC card in it, allowing EX1's door to close properly.That's right -- a reliable, no-guess, no-fail working Express card adapter short enough to fit in an EX1 with the door closed. These guys already make high-quality SDHC cards, and they already have a world-wide distribution network, so they're perfect for the job. Should know more this week.

I have a feeling these Delkin cards are hit and miss for working.

Out of the two I bought. One had an unknown media when I first used it.
It started working, but then stopped again. It may be the internal contacts.
I played around with it, but it's not working.


I ordered 12 Delkins four are defective. Be sure to test them before shooting a Job.

That's right -- a reliable, no-guess, no-fail working Express card adapter short enough to fit in an EX1 with the door closed. These guys already make high-quality SDHC cards, and they already have a world-wide distribution network, ..........
Very good news indeed as it stands, but the real icing on the cake would be the additional option of ExpressCards with adequate performance for basic operation in an EX (as the SDHC cards), and with pricing to match the SDHC cards. What's being offered is brilliant as it is, but I'd be prepared to pay maybe a 10-20% on the card costs for the ability to not have to use an adaptor.

If they already make SDHC cards, I wouldn't think this would be too difficult for them? Since we're looking towards the day when solid state becomes a consumable item like tape, rather than one or two cards per camera, the potential market could be huge.

Actually I think having an adapter and SDHC card separate is more flexible.

This way, you can upgrade to 32Gb cards, for example, some time down the road - without paying for a new adapter.

Which brings us to another question - what is the SDHC card capacity limit that the new adapter will recognize? Chris?..

I ordered 12 Delkins four are defective. Be sure to test them before shooting a Job. I'll be waiting for Chriss'.
What is a week instead of months of frustration?

One question I have would this be an adaptor one puts an SDHC card in or would it be a unit with card built in. I think David Heath alludes to a combined unit.

Just curious what you're aiming for Chris.

Either of the above has good value though as long as it doesn't drive the price up too much compared to the Kensington + SDHC solution.

The other thing is a 32GB model.

BTW you'd think Sony would know about this stuff by now.

I finally got a break in the sched to bring in my EX1 for firmware upgrade and other minor issues. We drove to Teaneck NJ. The guy behind the desk said they are really backlogged with EX1s coming in for firmware upgrades. He didn't seem to know (or acknowledge) the SDHC solution.

That's right -- a reliable, no-guess, no-fail working Express card adapter short enough to fit in an EX1 with the door closed. These guys already make high-quality SDHC cards, and they already have a world-wide distribution network, so they're perfect for the job. Should know more this week.

Actually I think having an adapter and SDHC card separate is more flexible.

This way, you can upgrade to 32Gb cards, for example, some time down the road - without paying for a new adapter.
Maybe, but what I'm hoping for are ExpressCards that may be only 10-20% more expensive than the same size (and performance) of memory in SDHC form. No adaptors at all, simply cheaper than 800Mbs memory (equivalent to Class 6) in an ExpressCard form factor, and guaranteed for use in an EX. You can buy this category of memory in SDHC, CF, MemoryStick etc etc - why not ExpressCard?

It depends how you use them, but I'm thinking of their being treated as consumable, so upgrading never comes into it. Shoot, and give to client with material, rather than having to download and format, as SxS or P2 in the past. In which case, 8 and 16GB may be about optimum sizes (about 30 and 60 mins), and my interest would be in buying those sizes as cheaply as possible. If the shoot lasted 45 minutes, and a 16GB card was $40, a 32GB $80, it's obvious that it's best to use and charge for the 16GB card.

I may be just having an unusual run of good luck, but the 2 Delkin eFilm adaptors I got last week still seem to work perfectly for EX 1080HQ 60i with the San Disk 16GIG cards. I shot numerous 720p 30 sec duration, 60 fps overcrank shots on each adaptor with no error as well.
Keeping my fingers crossed.

I'm hoping that this new sxs substitue being developed is an adaptor which uses sdhc cards, rather than a one piece card.

A few reasons.
1. I've sold my sony sxs reader, so i now use use the transcend usb reader with the transcend cards, so if this new development turns out to be an "sxs" card how will i offload ?

2. With the price of the sdhc cards being cheap and getting cheaper all the time it's possible to just hand over the footage/rushes to a client on the card at the end of a shoot, but how will they offload if they don't have an express card slot on a pc ?
Whereas all pc's have a usb slot so the cheap sdhc>usb reader can be used by the client.
The readers are only £5 so one of those can be handed over as well.

3. If i do hand over the sdhc card then i can just wander up the road the next day and replace my transcend sdhc card.

I really hope this development is just an adaptor, if it is i'll buy a few, if it's a one piece card then i won't, i'll stick with the "kenny and tranny", tried and tested.

Paul.

I may be just having an unusual run of good luck, but the 2 Delkin eFilm adaptors I got last week still seem to work perfectly for EX 1080HQ 60i with the San Disk 16GIG cards. I shot numerous 720p 30 sec duration, 60 fps overcrank shots on each adaptor with no error as well.
Keeping my fingers crossed.

I have similar experience shooting 1080 24p with both Kensington and Delkin cards.

What if it didn't have an open slot at the end (like a traditional adapter), but instead it's an Express card shell that you could open up, and install whatever size SDHC card you want inside of it? That way you could upgrade the card capacity easily... or remove it, whenever you need to... the adapter is still a separate piece, but a bit more secure without an open slot... thoughts?

Do I sniff a dangling carrot Chris?

What if it didn't have an open slot at the end (like a traditional adapter), but instead it's an Express card shell that you could open up, and install whatever size SDHC card you want inside of it? That way you could upgrade the card capacity easily... or remove it, whenever you need to... the adapter is still a separate piece, but a bit more secure without an open slot... thoughts?

Fine by me.

In fact, it is even better than some other adapters that employ push in - push out mechanism for the cards. Those pose problems since pushing on the card while the combo is inserted into EX1 would dismount the card but may produce EX1 communication error with the combo.

Chris's adapter would not have such problem.

Now, define "install" please :)

Just an idea for having the best of both worlds... Express card memory where you can change out the memory yourself, and that memory module happens to be an SDHC card... if it's easier just to have a traditional adapter with an open slot then so be it, but I thought a fully enclosed shell might have some appeal.

Personally, I think an end loading slot (Kensington style) for the SDHC is more reliable and rugged as a two-part express card adapter that you could easily open up risks damage. Each leaf would need to be quite thin and the hinge arrangement (or sliding arrangement or lug and catch etc. design) might make it fragile, maybe?

Also, pushing in the SDHC from the end gives a nice, almost 'self-cleaning' action as it slides home on the metal contacts of the expresscard's terminals within.

I'm no electronics designer but those are my thoughts.

Now, define "install" please :)It would be dead easy... I have a Kingston MobileMate USB card reader that fully encloses an SDHC card. Flip the lid open, and you slide the card in. There's a plastic thumb-push thingy that pushes it back out again -- see pics below (click for larger versions) showing the card fully inserted, and pushed out for removal. I was thinking the Express card shell could be made up in a similar way.

Personally, I think an end loading slot (Kensington style) for the SDHC is more reliable and rugged as a two-part express card adapter that you could easily open up risks damage. That's a pretty good point... there are some good arguments either way (open slot vs. hinged shell).

Chris, i've no doubt that whatever you and company "x" come up with will be good quality, i don't think you'd put your name to something that's only going to last a short while.
As long as i can still use sdhc cards in it i don't mind what it is.

Paul.

That's a pretty good point... there are some good arguments either way (open slot vs. hinged shell).

Chris, that's a good way to approach the design ... I wonder if the new card will allow for 60 fps? It would be nice to have slow-mo working!

Isn't the overcranking limitation due to a USB bottleneck? If so, the adapter would have to be PCI-Express, which raises the price. Even then it's still bound to be significantly less expensive than Sony's SxS media.

I've been running my kensingtons though the express card slot on my MBPro. I'm not sure about where the bottle-neck is on the cards? All cards up to this point have trouble getting past 40/50 fps but are capable of faster speeds, I understand ... correct me if I'm wrong on this point.

I'm hoping that this new sxs substitue being developed is an adaptor which uses sdhc cards, rather than a one piece card. ...........

I really hope this development is just an adaptor,
My thought was that there's room for both, for as well as, not instead of.

I accept all you say about the desirability of an adaptor/SDHC card for some situations, but there are other times when a one piece card may be more appropiate. Handing over media with shot rushes may be just such a case, the form of ExpressCards seems more robust and the larger size may make it less easily lost than SDHC.

There again, it may not be possible to develop such a one piece card for less than the combined cost of an adaptor plus an SDHC card. In that case, you may as well hand over adaptor and SD card together, and in this case Chris's suggestion of an enclosed adaptor would be preferable.

Isn't the overcranking limitation due to a USB bottleneck? If so, the adapter would have to be PCI-Express, which raises the price. Even then it's still bound to be significantly less expensive than Sony's SxS media.

True,

The bottleneck is how Sony is handling USB 2.0 over the expresscard slot.

If the card was designed for PCIe, then we would be able to reach the given SDHC card's datarate used. Since the SanDisk Ultra II is capable of sustaining 15MB/s, it "probably" would work fine for the top overcrank datarate. I believe the required rate is around 12.5MB/s for overcranking 60FPS @ 720 24p.

I received the final production version of the Expresscard adapter I was referring to in my post of 28/11/08.

This isn't a prototype, this is from the first batch off the production line, ( although we didn't have the final artwork ready for this small batch, so please excuse the temp label for now ).

If you watch the video below you can see the card in action.

The first design consideration was to ensure that with an SDHC inserted, the EX1 door would close. - Done.

The second was It is designed to ensure that the SDHC will not eject from the Expresscard while it is in the camera, unless by deliberate and concerted effort by the user, not by accident. You can see where it slightly moves but does not eject or disengage from the Expresscard or camera, even after sticking my big thumbs in there to try to. - Done.

The third was performance - that it should meet at least the performance of what other cards were already doing. The card will crank up to 48fps, which as we understand from many on this thread is the limitation of the USB implementation on this camera. - Done.

The fourth was that it would be reliable, that it should work each time and every time. So far it has been recognised every time by several EX1 cameras and hasn't dropped one frame. - Done.

The last consideration, not a design one but just as important, that it didn't cost any more than other cards already on the market. - Done.

The price? $US35 + postage which will be approx $10 to the US, and $12 for Europe.

We will be offering quantity discounts on freight as most people appear to be ordering more than 1 at a time, with orders of 10 or more being freight free.

We'll be putting up the website to take orders on Friday this week, and we expect to start shipping 19/12/08 ( 12/19/08 for our US friends ). There shouldn't be any shortage of cards as we have already committed to our first production run of 20,000 cards to be delivered over the next two months.

Oh and one last thing the name? MxR Expresscard Adapter. I wanted to use "Efilms Expresscard Adapter", because "Efilms" has been my trading name since 2001, but I thought it would confuse people.

If you have any questions I'd be pleased to answer them, just remember we're in Sydney, so if you don't get an immediate response it's because we are catching some shuteye, too much excitement for one day.

http://www.efilms.com.au/streams/SDHCExpress.wmv

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachment.php?attachmentid=9995&stc=1&d=1228737851

Fantastic, Ross -- congratulations! Is it using the USB interface, or is it or PCIe?

This is most likely worthy of a new thread...

edit: added to http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/sony-xdcam-ex-cinealta/138485-summary-sdhc-substitute-sxs-cards.html

Great work!

I'll buy a few and give you a plug in one of my articles!

Looking forward to your site going live...

Hi Chris,

We used USB for this version, but PCIe is definitely on the radar.

That's really fantastic, I'm in for a few.

Dan

Waiting for a link... My fingers are ready....

The entrepreneurial spirit at its finest. Well done! Count me in...

What a tease! Now you got me wanting the PCIe version!
I do a far amount of overcrank so I'd hate to have to keep popping in the SxS card for that.

What great affordable stocking stuffer. Although with shipping from Australia to USA it'll probably arrive after the holidays. You're gonna have a hard time with production and fulfillment for a bit I'd imagine. You know you're going to get a lot of orders.

Hi Chris,

We used USB for this version, but PCIe is definitely on the radar.

That's a pretty good point... there are some good arguments either way (open slot vs. hinged shell).

Wouldn't the hinged door break off after using it like that for awhile? It's only a plastic flap I assume.

John

John, I made this point yesterday.....

Personally, I think an end loading slot (Kensington style) for the SDHC is more reliable and rugged as a two-part express card adapter that you could easily open up risks damage. Each leaf would need to be quite thin and the hinge arrangement (or sliding arrangement or lug and catch etc. design) might make it fragile, maybe?

Also, pushing in the SDHC from the end gives a nice, almost 'self-cleaning' action as it slides home on the metal contacts of the expresscard's terminals within.

I'm no electronics designer but those are my thoughts.

.....Once again I see this thread going round in circles......

Chris, just a suggestion but why don't you close (and lock?) this thread? People can refer to the summary pages and then start new, specific threads about different aspects of SxS Substitution. I think it will make it easier for everyone to access good info without the endless repetition that this thread has evolved into because of it's shear enormity.

Not having a go at anyone here, just think it will make everyone's lives a bit easier!

Wouldn't the hinged door break off after using it like that for awhile? It's only a plastic flap I assume.Well, it's not even made yet (and in all honesty, it may no longer need to be made, since Ross now has a solution ready to go). So no, you can't assume it would have a plastic lid.

Chris, just a suggestion but why don't you close (and lock?) this thread? I have a feeling now that Ross has posted about his working adapter, this thread will probably die down all by itself. Once his adapter is shipping to customers, it will definitely have its own thread (might even happen before then).

Hi Ross i'm in Sydney when can I place an order or pick some up. I have a long shoot this week out in the bush and can't find any SXS cards anywhere in Sydney, can you help me out?
Regards
Simon

(besides Kensington,)...at this moment there is only one card that works and that's the Generic one from Hong Kong. I have several on order at the moment. The link is in Kevin Cates post above.

While this is no longer the only other working option - kudos to Ross!! - I can now report that HK adapter also works.

The card sticks out of it even farther than with Kensington, but hey - the door did not close either way on EX1 :)

Reliability: combo (how do we call it? HKxS?) was recognized effortlessly on all attempts. Video recorded uneventfully. Tried a couple minutes; then as frequent start-stops as camera could accept. No errors.

I was able to reliably overcrank it to 40fps. It produces media error while overcranked to 48fps eventually, just like with other adapters in my camera.

Please note that I just received those adapters today and all info is from the very limited tests I've just done.

Yes, glad they work for you too Alex. The shipping is really slow but cheap! I wonder if Ross's new card reader is a variation of the Hong Kong card as we both have these and they work flawlessly including long recording and auto switching of slots when 2 are in my EX3. Haven't been game to trim the SD Sandisk cards back yet though!

Evan

Ross this looks like the ultimate solution, so i will be in for a few.
Will you take Paypal?

As for the name, why not call it something which is clear and precise? Its made for the EX1 and EX3, so why not just call it the EX1/3 SDHC Adaptor. No one will then be confused!

How about ROSSxS? :D

With regard to other cards, I have 2 of the HK generics and they both work flawlessly (except, of course, for their unfortunate length).

I can report less success with the Delkins. I've ordered 3 separate cards, and twice received the incorrect model. The one "correct" model has a quality control problem, in that the spring loading mechanism continually attempts to eject the SDHC card.

Needless to say, I'm looking forward to Ross's custom designed, reliable solution.

Ross, does your adaptor have a spring type eject (push push)or does it need to be pulled out manually ?

I'm definately interested in a few, along with the rest of the crew i work with.
Hope you do paypal.

Paul.

Hi Ross i'm in Sydney when can I place an order or pick some up. I have a long shoot this week out in the bush and can't find any SXS cards anywhere in Sydney, can you help me out?
Regards
Simon

Hi Simon,

See check your email.

Thanks