Thanks Alister!
Here's a link to the free datarate tester:

http://crystalmark.info/software/CrystalDiskMark/index-e.html

The Kensington + SDHC is capable of overcranking 40FPS at 24P without an error in the EX.
This overcrank is an equivalent of approx 8.3MB/s.
That equates to a data rate of just over 65Mbs, which raises an interesting question. There's due to be an SxS adaptor for the PDW700, when the normal data rate is 50Mbs. Will SDHC reliably record at this rate?

Since the 65Mbs is an actual working speed, not a nominal manufacturers spec, I think there's grounds for optimism, but it should be an interesting test.

OK ran some tests, pretty inconclusive, but here are my results, the last one is interesting:

Transcend 16Gb Class 6 card (also ran the tests with a 8Gb Extreme III, almost exactly the same results). 500Mb sequential file.

In Kensington adapter via express card slot.

Seq R19.37/W14.37
512k 19.22/2.54
4k 4.68/0.021

Via Sandisk USB adapter

Seq 19.38/14.53
512k 19.22/1.92
4k 4.677/0.018

Via built-in SD card slot... This is the interesting one..

Seq 7.76/6.80
512k 7.65/1.69
4k 4.32/0.018

This was with a Sony NV11M laptop.

Maybe they are using the same controller in the laptop as in the as the EX! From this test I would suggest that the Kensington card is not the bottleneck.

By the way PHU-60 users have found that with a USB sex changer (sony use an odd USB connector on the express card adapter) they have been able to use generic USB hard drives. No matter how big the drive no one can get them to format above 80Gb. But still opens up the possibility of recording to cheap USB drives.

Thank you Alister!

This is good and bad news!

This now concludes that the issue is with Sony's EX camera implementation of USB data control.
OR, worst yet, they intentionally crippled the USB data rate!

Sony, PLEASE fix the USB datarate problem.

This may allow your own PHU-60K to not have "restore media" errors.
Which we know are directly tied to datarate. We determined this by using slow SDHC cards in the Kensington reader. They also were infected with "restore media" errors.

IMO, and many will agree, the ability to use SDHC cards is a breakthrough for Sony.
This itself, will increase camera sales. Also, it will allow you to manufacture a better working
SDHC card reader that will allow the EX1 memory door to close with the SDHC card inserted.

I also agree that Sony should support SD cards, they have everything to gain, after all, they will sell lots more EX's

Well for what it's worth, I became a new owner of an EX3 this week. It did indeed come down to the $2000.00 CAN difference between two 16GB SxS and two 16GB SDHC. I also managed to snap up the EX3 before this weeks $900 Canadian price increase and the huge drop in the Canadian dollar. Otherwise in this economy, it just would not have been possible on my fringe income.

So far I am very pleased with the EX3, it works as advertised. I will receive two 16GB SDHC cards and reader this week. Thanks to Steven Thomas and all who discovered this awesome break through. I am compensating for the IR shortcoming with a Schneider 486 filter and I am waiting for Ted to manufacture a safer Tripod plate.

Thanks Barry, but the real thanks goes to Alister Chapman.
He's the first to report about the Kensington and Transcend SDHC.

Myself and a few others were the ones who made many trips in and out of Fry's Electronics trying to find the best working combo for the EX1. I started to get looks in the return line. lol ;)

I find the enthusiasm which suggests Sony's increasing sales due to the discovery of the quasi-compatibility of SD cards a little amusing.
I see this matter as the inkjet printer vs ink cartridge relationship in terms of profit source for the maker.
Using the same analogy, do you guys think Canon would love to hear you saying "Hey, we have found a syringe and ink, pumped the ink into the cartridge. Although its not as good as the original - but it works and dirt cheap. Canon, we just created huge revenues for ya on the printer sales! Nice, eh?.... Heck, why these printers are so cheap...?"

What do you think gives Sony more profits, a 6000-7000$ complicated electromechanical device with all the warranty and support or a close-to-thousand bucks card that pops out from a robot's "mouth" by the second?

I don't want to be pretentious, I have ordered my Kensingtons and Ultras. I just think its better to keep our mouth shut - Sony may twist the design or update the firmware to avoid our practices. Then maybe our poor fellow EX3 users of 2009 wont be able to enjoy the SD fiesta :o)

Zsolt,
I'd be surprised if Sony did not already know about this.

Juan Martinez who is a Senior Manager for Sony Electronics has helped clear up several issues with the EX series mentioned on this forum.

I hear your reasoning, but I certainly believe this is ONE HECK of a selling point on these cameras. This is a great marketing tool and would shine in advertisements.

"The Crystal Ball"
Sony sees the writing on the wall and thinks about monetization.

The call to Kensington
"We'll give you certification of compatibility and we get $5 or 20% on each unit sold, whichever is higher. Think about the marketing benefit to you."

The call to Sandisk
"We'll give you certification of compatibility and we get $25 or 20% on each unit sold, whichever is higher. We know you make SxS cards too but you'll see the cost benefit on increased volume."

The call to Lexar
"By joining our certification program we'll share the technology needed to ensure your cards meet the certification standard."

. . . .

They know... I contacted Sony about two weeks ago at the time the Rep said she did not know any other card would work with the EX1 or Ex3. I emailed them the link to this topic.

How about Sony dropping the price of the EX1 from US$6,499.oo to US$5,499.00 minus the two 8gb SxS cards, one with the camera one with the rebate;(B&H prices), and let the customers decide how much they want to invest in cards, be it K&S combos for SQ and HQ, or SxS for SQ, HQ, and Overcranking for slo mo. I will bet they would sell tons of cameras and still many customers would purchase at least one SxS card for overcranking and slo mo. But nothing will drive sales up more in this days and ages, than a steep price reduction. This would kill Panny potential customers, scare the hell out of JVC's; and they could probaly just corner the market with huge success. That is assuming we don't have any more QC issues, ineficient firmware updates, and the like. So any way, no body at Sony ever listens, so I better go to bed now, and start REALLY dreaming away...........have a good night chapesees and chaps!

I predict they (sony) try and stop it in the future.. unless they expect companies to keep pace and make future adapters even more compatible.

We are talking about a company that made sure their NLE could only edit AVCHD from their own line of cameras.. They would surely sell more Sony Vegas software if it worked with all AVCHD cameras, but they don't see it that way.

I see this matter as the inkjet printer vs ink cartridge relationship in terms of profit source for the maker.
An interesting analogy, but you can look at it two ways.

I suspect most users buy their EX, maybe two or three cards, and that's it. A bit like buying the printer and a lifetimes supply of ink at the start.

Whereas SDHC cards are already cheap enough for people to start considering them as the new tape. Shoot, then hand to client, or put on the shelf as their own library. Result: ongoing sales, a far better equivalent to the ink cartridges.

But there is a fiddleiness to using SD cards and adaptors, and in many ways they seem just too small, too easily lost. To me the really smart thing for Sony to do would be what I previously called an "SxS lite", cheaper lower spec ExpressCards, but guaranteed to work with the EX in a basic fashion.

That would enhance EX sales, whilst giving them the benefit of "ink cartridge" repeat business, in a way that standard SxS cards don't.

Im with David. While I like being able to use cheaper SD cards, they are just too small. I too would love to see Sony bring out a certified express card option.

As for Sony removing this ability, I'm not sure they can now as to do so would probably take away the ability to use the PHU-60. If Sony really needed to protect the SxS card revenue stream then they would not have released the PHU-60. Ultimately more EX camera sales will lead to more SxS card sales. Many users will still want SxS cards for mission critical applications. I believe we will see most users having 3 or 4 SxS cards plus a bunch of SD cards until such time as SxS prices drop significantly. The SDHC option may just help bring down the cost of SxS. I would much rather use SxS than SDHC but at the moment it doesn't make economic sense.

Another thing Sony must also be well aware of is that the ability to use cheap media is a very strong selling point for EX over P2. This would help Sony put the squeeze on Panasonic and increase market share. Who knows what deal Sony did with Sandisc when they developed SxS. If I was Sandisc I wouldn't be too happy that the cameras developed to use SxS can now be used with generic SD media. I'm sure there is some serious head scratching going on behind closed doors at Sony.

If I was Sandisc I wouldn't be too happy that the cameras developed to use SxS can now be used with generic SD media. I'm sure there is some serious head scratching going on behind closed doors at Sony.

Why wouldn't Sandisk be happy? They are making the "user approved" SD-cards that we now use and love.

From a design engineer's point of view, when Sony offered USB support via the EX expresscard slot, I'm sure the engineers knew there were expresscard media adaptors on the market.
They've been available for a couple years. Also, Sony is using the USB protocol for expresscard data transfer.

This may be one of the reasons they limited their USB datarate.

The EX at its highest datarate is only 100mbps (12.5MB/s). This is the dataerate for overcranking 24P and 60FPS.
Portable USB drives can sustain over 30MB/s over USB 2.0.

Again, Sony either intentionally crippled their USB datarate, or somehow screwed up. I'll bet it was intentional.

Well, SDHC cards are now being using in new and upcoming video cameras.
I'll say it again, this is GOOD NEWS for Sony.

Remember you guys suggested keeping the card in the adapter, and just pulling/inserting the whole thing, just like SxS card?

Now you can :) Just got a Buy.com promo, Cables Unlimited IOC-9750 adapter (http://affiliate.buy.com/gateway.aspx?adid=17662&aid=10578140&pid=2971847&sURL=http%3A//www.buy.com/prod/Cables_Unlimited_Card_Reader_ExpressCard_34mm_RS_MMC_microSD_MMCplus_MMCmobile_miniSD_Card_Memory_St ick_xD_Pictu/q/loc/273/205073826.html) is under $8 (after rebate) with free shipping.

So I guess now you can get a couple of them with equal number of Sandisk Ultra II 15Mb/s (http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?ie=UTF8&keywords=sandisk%20ultra%20II%2016gb&tag=mo7iescom-20&index=electronics&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) cards, and each set gets you about 1hr of HQ 1080p recording time in EX1. For $68 instead of $800. (It won't do overkranking over 40fps, of course, but everything else is the same as SxS card.)

I own it, and in all my tests, this IOC-9750 adapter never produced any errors, so seems like it's as good as Kensington (which is $36.)

Enjoy :)


I ordered 2 of these readers My EX1 had a hard time seeing the media. Tested with Transend 8 GB cards.

I ordered 2 of these readers My EX1 had a hard time seeing the media. Tested with Transend 8 GB cards.




Brian, maybe the Cable Unlimited adaptor does not work with Transcend?

Have you tried the Cable Unlimited adaptor with the Ultra II 15MB/s or the Extreme III 30MB/s SDHC cards?

I'm sticking with the Kensington. I have four of these with the SanDisk Ultra II 15MB/s and new Extreme III 30MB/s SDHC cards.
I've been using them for almost a month with NO errors in HQ modes.

Brian - what do you mean by "hard time"?

Please elaborate, thanks!

I had to pull the Trandscend 8 GB card in and out about four times before the cam recognized it. I tried to insert another card with IOC-9750 adapter into slot B while slot A was recording. Error message Slot A restore Media. This adapter may work better with the Sandisk cards. I do not have any to test still waiting on my (4) 32gb Sandisk SDHC cards to arrive.

Ditto Steve I'm sticking with the Kensington too.

Hmmm...

With Sandisk Extreme III, the only issue I had with IOC was that when you switched the EX1 from camera to media player mode, you'd have to pull the IOC adapter out, then reinsert it back in - because *sometimes* the cam would not see it otherwise.

Sandisk Ultra II 15Mb/s seems to be working best as SxS alternative - but:
I would like to buy cards (about 20 to 30) that work with both:
nanoFlash and EX (with Kensington-adapter)

For nanoFlash
http://convergent-design.com/
recommend
Transcend 32GB Compact Flash Card (133X Speed)
http://ec.transcendusa.com/product/ItemDetail.asp?ItemID=TS32GCF133

They have not tested any other cards with it.
Will the Transcend 32GB Compact Flash Card (133X Speed) be o.k. as SxS replacement using with a kensington adapter? Convergent say they are the cheapest cards and "have sufficient performance for data-rates up to 100 Mbps (Long-GOP or I-Frame)."

Is there anybody else who wants to buy nanoFlash and is facing the same problem: What cards to buy for BOTH?

Thomas...
The Kensington uses SDHC cards. nanoFlash uses CF cards. Two different beasts.

Is there anybody else who wants to buy nanoFlash and is facing the same problem: What cards to buy for BOTH?

A very important point, Thomas - I'm in the same boat :)

Two different beasts.

Google "SD card in Compact Flash adaptor" - Russian Doll meets High Tech Storage.

Rats, I'm now cursed because I can't stop hearing 'Dem Bones' rattling around in my brain. The SD's connected to the... Compact Flash; the Compact Flash is connected to the... PCI Bus; and so on.

Sandisk Ultra II 15Mb/s seems to be working best as SxS alternative - but:
I would like to buy cards (about 20 to 30) that work with both:
nanoFlash and EX (with Kensington-adapter)

For nanoFlash
HDV To HD-SDI Video Converters Professional Video Equipment HDMI To HD-SDI Television Studio Equipment (http://convergent-design.com/)
recommend
Transcend 32GB Compact Flash Card (133X Speed)
http://ec.transcendusa.com/product/ItemDetail.asp?ItemID=TS32GCF133

They have not tested any other cards with it.
Will the Transcend 32GB Compact Flash Card (133X Speed) be o.k. as SxS replacement using with a kensington adapter? Convergent say they are the cheapest cards and "have sufficient performance for data-rates up to 100 Mbps (Long-GOP or I-Frame)."

Is there anybody else who wants to buy nanoFlash and is facing the same problem: What cards to buy for BOTH?

You can not use compact flash cards with the Kensington adapter. We are using the SDHC cards. I have tried several compact flash adapters with the Ex1 None have worked so far and the cards stick to far out of the cam with the compact flash adapters.

These cards are so cheap compared to the SXS just buy two sets SDHC and Compact flash and call it a day.

SDHC cards are so cheap, they're practically disposable. If you're used to archiving projects on a hard drive, it's cheaper and easier to store and archive on SDHC cards.

I'm I missing something in the math?

1.5 TB hard drive is $190
Two DL-DVD (16GB) is a little over $4
How is 16GB SDHC cost per GB cheaper than either?
Now if you're comparing the cost of SDHC compared to HDCAM tape maybe that's competitive.

SDHC cards are so cheap, they're practically disposable. If you're used to archiving projects on a hard drive, it's cheaper and easier to store and archive on SDHC cards.

What I meant was that they are cheap enough to be used for archiving, not that they're cheaper than a hard drive. . That's what I'm doing in my business; and, my customers are happy with that solution. Each customer buys their own archival media. Given the choice, most of my customers opt for SDHC over a hard drive or SxS card.
In the context of this thread, my point is that worrying about using the same flash media on nanoflash and a Kensington type card reader is rather a waste of time.

Gotta love the way the internet is so argumentative.

Google "SD card in Compact Flash adaptor" - Russian Doll meets High Tech Storage.

Rats, I'm now cursed because I can't stop hearing 'Dem Bones' rattling around in my brain. The SD's connected to the... Compact Flash; the Compact Flash is connected to the... PCI Bus; and so on.

Damn, now I'm cursed to! Very funny!

I'm no longer interested in measley 32GB card solutions. Here is what I've put together.

;-)

Sure takes care of the weight distribution problem.

Ted will it work with the EX1?

Only if you have updated the firmware.

;-)

Has anyone tried this Card Sandisk HD 16gb?

SDSDHV016GA15 SanDisk 16 GB Video HD SDHC Memory Card (http://www.adorama.com/IDSSD16GVHD.html)

Has anyone tried this Card Sandisk HD 16gb?

SDSDHV016GA15 SanDisk 16 GB Video HD SDHC Memory Card (http://www.adorama.com/IDSSD16GVHD.html)

Does anyone have access to test these locally? They are reported as a hair slower than the Ultra II's, but still faster than the EX1/3 USB bus so overcranking to 40 should still be fine.

They are really about the same price as the Ultra II 16GB cards ($65), but these VideoHD cards have a $30 rebate each, or $70 rebate for every two, which drops the price to $30 each. The only limitation listed on the rebate form is maximum of two cards per form!

With the testing ongoing, it is in fact confusing to keep up with what to do if one wants to jump into this route right now of using cheaper cards with adapters before the testing is complete.

It is too early for a Sticky... however, it would be extremely helpful to everyone if the original poster (Brian Rhodes) would update the initial post to reflect a summary of the latest findings as we go along.Here's the deal: we need a concise summary of this entire thread in article format that we can add to the Articles section of the site... something we can use as a definitive reference... and then I'll add a link to that article from this forum, as a sticky.

Note -- I'm not looking for anything elsewhere on the web, but an original piece that we can host *right here* on DV Info Net, with photos, etc. If somebody is willing to take this on and put it together, I'll find a way to make it worth their time somehow. Thanks in advance,

Chris, I'm up for it.
I can get it done over the weekend.
Is this soon enough?

Chris, I'd be willing to take a stab at it, since I'm moving in this direction. However, rather than focus on what doesn't work, I'd rather focus on what does work.

Does that make sense?

rather than focus on what doesn't work, I'd rather focus on what does work.

Actually I think it's equally important to state what was tested and did not work.

Otherwise people could *assume* that certain combos would work while they don't, or don't work reliably enough.

Chris, I'd be willing to take a stab at it, since I'm moving in this direction. However, rather than focus on what doesn't work, I'd rather focus on what does work.

Does that make sense?

Jay, since my schedule does not permit until later this week, please go ahead with this summary.
Thanks

Thanks fellows, whether it's one article co-authored, or two or more separate articles, I'm all for whatever it takes to boil this into something easily readable. I think there's more than enough solid info within this thread, and the challenge will be how to distill it down to a solid, workable article that's not too long or too short. I agree that it should focus primarily on what works (with perhaps a side note or two listing incompatible cards and readers).

Here's the deal: we need a concise summary of this entire thread in article format that we can add to the Articles section of the site... something we can use as a definitive reference... and then I'll add a link to that article from this forum, as a sticky.

Note -- I'm not looking for anything elsewhere on the web, but an original piece that we can host *right here* on DV Info Net, with photos, etc. If somebody is willing to take this on and put it together, I'll find a way to make it worth their time somehow. Thanks in advance,


Chris I have an excel spread sheet with data rates and Cards that work and do not work was waiting on the 32gb cards before I posted it. I can send it to you tomr.

Chris, Steve, Brian...

In all fairness, Brian should have first right of refusal in doing this, it was his idea.

Insfar as schedules are concerned, it's not like I could bang this out in a week. Therefore, Steve, by your posting first, you're second in line.

I came in third!

OK cool.
Brian, if you're up for it, Jay and I can offer support by looking over your info and possibly assist with the work?

Steve
proaudio4@cox.net

A group effort sounds like a winner, and a spreadsheet is a great idea Brian!

A group effort sounds like a winner, and a spreadsheet is a great idea Brian!

I will email it to you guys tomr. to look over I will also format a doc in html format with some pics.

Sounds like a plan!

By the way I've merged several threads together:

"Lexar SXS cards, where to buy in the UK?"
started by Paul Kellett, 30 replies and 1,550 views

"FAST SDHC Memory for the EX1"
started by Steven Thomas, 50 replies and 3,000 views

"Cards that will & will not work with EX1 & EX3"
started by Brian Rhodes, 460 replies and 20,300 views

I think I'm still missing the one that first kicked off the idea, was it from Alister Chapman? Anyway, Brian's thread was already ginormous at 460 posts, so I figured another 80 wouldn't make much of a difference in the length -- a long thread is a long thread -- just wanted to keep everything under one roof to make things a little easier to research.

New title is "SDHC substitute for SxS cards" -- hopefully it gets the point across,

Thanks Chris.
Yes, it was Alister who first mentioned the SDHC card / Kensington expresscard adaptor.
I'm not sure what thread this post is located.