Okay, debate time again.

I'm considering the PDW-700. However I'm in two minds whether to sell my J17 lens or to keep it. Why?

When I tried the 700 I used it with an HJ17, and to be honest the CA it showed along with other issues made me wonder if there is actually any difference whatsoever between these two lenses other than the name designation!

Furthermore, there are budget lenses such as the KJ20 available. Would a budget KJ20 HD lens actually be better than my broadcast classed J17 SD lens? Given the issues I have seen on other budget HD glass I am not sure that it would be.

Is the fear of use of a good 2/3" SD broadcast lens on a HD camera more FUD than reality? I know Alister did some good comparisons with his 1/2" lenses that showed that his SD lens was more than adequate. But has anyone done the same sort of test (with downloadable results) on good 2/3" cameras?

In fact I was just speaking to someone who spoke to Canon about this once regarding his J11. he was told that there would be absolutely no use upgrading to the HJ11 because they both came off the same production line!

First off this is a far bigger issue with 1/2 inch cameras than 2/3. The smaller photo sites of the 1/2 cams shows up the resolution difference between SD and HD lenses. 1/2" lenses require a higher MTF than 2/3" lenses.

I did some tests with a 700 and HD and SD lenses. The result was not clear cut. Overall the HD lenses appeared to have a slight edge, but it was a marginal difference that required close scrutiny of the pictures to discern. There have been some discussions over some older pre internal focus lenses. In some cases these have been found to be sharper than some of the more recent lenses.

A lens is a lens. If it is well made and well corrected it should work well. One thing that can make a difference is the use of exotic glass to correct for chromatic aberration. This glass is expensive but compared to the cost of designing and manufacturing a complex zoom lens that cost is small.

At the end of the day I believe that it comes down to the individual lens. Lens manufacture is a black art and even today there will be small variations between the elements made for each lens. Get a lens where all the elements are a good match and you will get good results. I think many of the HD and SD lenses share the same production lines with the lenses with the best optics being sold as HD and the rest as SD. Find a good one from that line at it will probably be just about as good as the more expensive HD lens.

Much the same thing happened when CCD's were first launched. The lens manufacturers were quick to bring out lenses with "CCD" badges on them, apparently "CCD" lenses were some how better than regular lenses.

So the issue is how do you find a good lens?

More important than using an HD lens is knowing the lens you are using and how to get the most from it. Most lenses perform best between F4 ad F8. A good quality SD lens used at it's sweet spot would probably out perform an HD lens that was wide open or at F16.

Hi Simon,

Fujinon shows its new ZA (?) Lenses : A Tele, a normal and a WIDE Lens.

"for SD-Budgets" - I am not sure what the price point is, but perhaps this will be a new alternative...

Second, I saw the Firmware update roadmap for the pdw-700. Sooner next year a firmware upgrade will implement an electronic CA compensation. Dont know more about it (only for dedicated lenses? Automatic Adjustment? ...) , but this will be a nice feature anyway.

ULI

Thanks for the ZA info. Usual strange staetments in Fuji's pages, saying things like they're suited to "professional and corporate" uses, so corporate users don't mind a bit of softness and CA? And these "budget" lenses always talk about using the highest quality optics for HD production etc. etc., but if that's the case why are the other tiers so much more expensive.
I think the only way is to try the lenses side by side, and if the difference is huge then fine buy the more expensive one, but if there is a difference but it's small then I wouldn't worry about it, as no viewer is going to looking at 100% frames and side-by-side tests.
I'll be doing some more side-by-side lens tests with a 700 this weekend so will post the results.
Steve

isn't it sad when you are buying a professional piece of kit and you can no longer be sure of the performance of what you are buying because the manufactures literature is so deliberatly vague. Lens manufactures should have to publish actual performance data with details of achievable resolution, mtf, distortion, dispertion levals. At least the we would really know what to expect. At the moment it is all but impossible to take a lens back if you don't belive it is performing to spec as the spec is so vague. There is no clear definition of what an HD lens is and how it should perform. There is nothing to stop any manufacturer putting an HD badge on any lens they choose. If you then take the lens back saying it's soft they say it's within spec....... But what is the spec? Camera manufacturer publish resolution, codec, compression ratios etc, why can't lens manufactures do the same? The reason has to be marketing, as I don't believe there is really the kinds of differences between so called pro lenses and broadcast lenses that justifies the often massive price difference.

Here are 2 frame grabs from PDW700, one with old Canon J14x8.5 the other with Canon HJ22x7.6. Light's crappy (just done it 5 mins ago, will do more soon). Both wide open, 0db gain. Which do you prefer?
Steve

At a glance I'm damned if I can tell the difference. Might be worth doing a landscape shot though, then the differences might show.

I'm wondering whether, with all the manufacturer confusion, whether it might be worth putting together a website with some definitive tests and results that potential purchasers can check out. Perhaps it will kick the manufacturers into giving some true specs.

Odd isn't it? It is easy to find good tests of pretty much every stills camera lens around, but virtually nothing when it comes to broadcast and professional video lenses.

Perhaps if we got together and shot some charts etc. I'm quite happy to set up an SQL site that can be updated easily.

Problem with having tests is that they'd almost all fail I think!
When HD first started to emerge in a big way there was so much talk about lens selection being SO important. The plan was to use only primes as zooms weren't really really good enough. Then zooms were deemed OK, but obviously only the highest quality and obviously no 2x extenders! Now they've almost all got a 2x, and now we're into several tiers of lenses, and we all know that even the top tier leave a little to be desired, so what does that mean the lowest on the ladder!?
The first HD lens I ever used was a Canon Digital Cinema lens, a 14x7 or something and it was superb (on an original F900), but it's all seemed to go downhill from there. Build and handling are pretty naff too (when you're paying £15k or so!)
It's a very tricky situation, and I think most folks would be (almost) happy to pay big money if there was a chalk and cheese difference but it doesn't seem to be anywhere that clear cut.
Will do some more tests and post.
Steve

Here are some more side by sides. Lenses were Canon J14x8.5 and Canon HJ22x7.6. a1,b1 and c1 were with one lens, a2, b2 and c2 were with the others. I CAN tell the difference, what do you think? PDW700, -6db, f5.6.
Steve

a1,b1 & c1 appear sharper but seems to have worse CA on the clothes pegs shot than lens 2.

How old is the J14?

My thoughts exactly Mike, though the CA is not too different I thought. The J14 must be about 10 years old I guess. It's an IF one, not a really old fashioned job.
Steve

No, second thoughts, you're right, the CA in 1 is definitely worse.
Steve

Steve - thanks for doing this stuff (and to everyone else doing these things), I am very keen on this camera, unfortunately I have not been able to get my hands on one up here in Fife, and I can't get the time to go to any of the shows.

I agree (from what I can see) that a1,b1, and c1 appear to be sharper - as for CA, I can't make a judgement on that with the monitor I am viewing this on.

Once again, many thanks for what your are doing, it is most informative...

Regards: Stu
www.studioscotland.com

For those who are interested, here are a couple of grabs from PDW700 and F355 side by side. Shots 1 and 1b are PDW700 and 2 and 2b from the F355. Quite a bit of difference. Also interesting that the file sizes are so different, even though they are from exactly the same grabbing proccess, presumably just shows how much extra res there is there?
Steve

Here are 2 frame grabs from PDW700, one with old Canon J14x8.5 the other with Canon HJ22x7.6. Light's crappy (just done it 5 mins ago, will do more soon). Both wide open, 0db gain. Which do you prefer?
Steve

I can't see much difference in the full size images.

Also, because I have experienced CA issues with my HSs (supposedly the cream of the crop) Fujinon lens, I started researching the CA thing. What I learned was CA becomes more of an issue as the lens MTF goes up. I suspect this is why we're starting to see cameras like the Panny and the EX have a CA correction feature incorporated.

i still don't believe I'm getting good HD images from this camera in wide shots, despite closely checking FB adjustment. The one time I had an SD loaner from Fujinon as my HD lens was being replaced, the SD lens seemed to have better saturation of color.

It still seems that if you get a best of the lot SD lens, it will perform quite admirably on the HD cameras. Should I elect to buy the 700, I'm going to take a serious look at going that route. I saw first hand at NAB in Dennis' presentation what the 700 can do with good SD glass on it.

-gb-

Many thanks for these Steve. I can see a difference in those shots. And I can definitely see a huge difference between the 350 and 700 shots.

Any new developments with lens choices and the PDW-700?

I have had a hell of a time with my camera options this winter upgrading and made a mistake I am correcting. I purchased a Red One and the workflow does not cut it for me along with 2K slow motion which is why I purchased the camera. At 2K it is not any better then my XDCAM EX1. Red One is excellent at 3K, 4K but that is not my client base which is 1080p BluRay or full size QuickTime. At least the Red holds their value.

So I am pushing on and tired of it but now have learned XDCAM works for me. My next step is EX3 or PDW-700 which both are being quoted for me now. And I need to know what not to buy with regard to glass on the 700? I would be buying a used lens from the rental department or a B-Lens. Of course great advice Greg Boston gave me months ago is test each lens which I will. Looking for input and please don't beat me up on my Red One mistake. I am a engineer and have always in my life tried for perfection and it does get me in trouble. At least my business is rocking so the funds are there to a point.

I will be testing next Tuesday so I have some time.

Anyone interested in a 6 week old Red One?

I haven't been particularly wowed by any HD zooms yet. I think it is partly because the cameras are so sharp that they show imperfections that we are not used to seeing.

I was working with a photographer who had just got upgraded to the EOS 1Ds Mk3. I asked what he thought of it and he said "Well, I can see all the imperfections in my lenses now." I think it is a similar case with HD.

I'm not a big fan of the HJ11 but this new HJ14 could be good... it should be at the price! Has anyone had a chance to use it yet?

Steer well clear of the budget Canon KJ20x8.5. Can't believe this is being sold as a HD lens. It's really soft at the edges and produces bucket loads of CA.

Excellent input Alister thanks. One shop was telling me that lens is a great deal no wonder why.

I told all three shop that I would prefer to have a fairly wide lens if I am going to only have one. I can rent for the times I need really long. I think this makes sense?

The factor should be 2.85 to compare to 35mm numbers correct?

How about the Canon HJ11EX4.7Birse HD?

Here are a few more I have been offered:

Fujinon:
ZA17x7.6 BERM HD Digi Power ENG Zoom
XA17x7.6 BERM-M58B W/2X extender CAC

This one is twice the money:
ZA12x4.5 BERM HD Digi Power ENG Zoom

Canon HDgc series KJ13x6KRS

What do you guys know about these?

Sorry Mike I did not see your comment when i posted. The HJ11 seems very expensive for the used lens they are selling and interesting you don't like it.

It would be nice to be on the wide side and the ZA12x4.5 is also very expensive used. I know the 2/3" HD glass is expensive but I would think 20% used is not much of a discount on the ZA12 and HJ11.

Now the other three I have listed are 1/2 the price of the ZA12 and the HJ11 or less. The Canon is very inexpensive. Am I missing something here? I will test and have read all the information on all the above lens plus others.

Just trying to be prepped for the demo.

Paul, I did tests with most of those lenses, do a quick search. Best reasonable price lens I found was probably the Canon HJ17x7.6.
Steve

Thanks Steve,

I must have missed it in the search I will hunt it down. Thanks for the recommendation.

Found this helpful .pdf for the Canon 2/3" and 1/2" lens line.

http://www.usa.canon.com/html/industrial_bctv/pdf/NAB%202006%20Price%20List%20General.pdf

Tested the PDW-700 with the Canon HJ17x7.6 yesterday in Boston. Very nice camera and lens combination.

My plan is to rent from Rule to see how well this setup works in the field for me.

I know this is an old thread but I've just come accross it and it makes interesting reading. - Just to completely clarify which lens is 1 and which is 2 ??


Quote - Here are some more side by sides. Lenses were Canon J14x8.5 and Canon HJ22x7.6. a1,b1 and c1 were with one lens, a2, b2 and c2 were with the others. I CAN tell the difference, what do you think? PDW700, -6db, f5.6.
Steve
Attached Images
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File Type: jpg a2.jpg (275.2 KB, 299 views)
File Type: jpg b1.jpg (272.1 KB, 281 views)
File Type: jpg b2.jpg (223.7 KB, 252 views)
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Hi Mat,
Sorry, I really can't remember which is which now, thought I would have mentioned it in the thread but no!
On looking closely lens 1 looks slightly better so I would assume that was the HD lens, but I think the conclusion is that it's actually pretty close, and that the J14 is a really old lens.
Steve

I recently did a camera shootout with a range of cameras:

XDCAM-USER.com 6 Camera Shootout: Panasonic 3700, 301, 200, Sony 700, 350, EX3 (http://www.xdcam-user.com/?page_id=598)

If you download the zip file you find there are frame grabs from the PDW-700 with both an older Canon J16 SD lens and a HJ14. It's all but impossible to tell which is which. Also grabs from the PMW-350 with both the kit lens and Canon HJ14.

Alister, On the 700 test the J16 looks slightly better than HJ14, how old was the J16 as I will look for one of these?

David

Alister, On the 700 test the J16 looks slightly better than HJ14, how old was the J16 as I will look for one of these?

David

The J16 is not as good as the HJ14, but if you keep the J16 between f11 and f4 it does a solid job that for most shoots is going to be passable. Of course now that more and more lenses with ALAC are coming out the difference is more noticable between a ALAC lens and a non corrected lens. I'm not sure exactly how old the J16 is as I purchased it used, my guess would be about 5 years.

Alister, many thanks for that,
I have now sold my 2 year old A13x4.5BERM, managed to get £4,300 plus vat which I have been told that is a good price.

I have always bought Fujinon however the replacement HA13x4.5 is just silly money, about £14,000 I am now reluctant to stay with Fujinon.

I have been researching the new HJ14x4.3 and found a supplier letting me have it for £11,000plus vat I have received good feedback on this lens, do you know if this supports ALAC on the PMW-350? any other thoughts would be appreciated?

Thanks

David

If you get a Canon HJ14x4.3 make sure it has the very latest firmware, apparently the lens has updatable firmware! If it does not have the correct firmware there can be a communication error between the lens and PMW-350 that appears to lead to some back focus issues. I'm pretty sure ALAC will be active with the up to date firmware.

An old thread, but I just saw this the other night. From the ABC TV show "Would You Fall For That?". Could they have found an older lens?

http://i39.tinypic.com/2przoky.jpg