Hi all,

I was wondering if someone could tell me if the HVR-S270 is a suitable news camera to replace out trusty DSR-570 with Firestore FS-3 Hard Disk Recorder?

We would appreciate the CF recording for FTP-ing of files to the network and the 4-channel audio would be a boon, not to mention the less bulk and great features over the 570.

I am concerned about the supposedly poor viewfinder and average and "soft" lens.

Cheers!

DC

i woudl check with your network and see what format is acceptable. they may not have the time to transcode HDV footage. Get you a Panasonic HPX-500, 2K rebate right now. and every station i know of in my market shoots on P2.

Hi there,

Soory I probably should have detailed a bit more...

It doesn't matter what I shoot on from a format point of view because my vision is either fed via a microwave/satellite link to the network or captured into my laptop, compressed and then sent by FTP over the 'net to their news server.

I was more concerned about the 270 as a news camera in itself for the operator, usability/ruggedness/picture quality.

Cheers,

David

it is a Sony.The price on those two cameras is so close
I would go for the Panny for it's better build and bigger chips
If I had the need for a big camera, I would be all over the
Panny with that rebate. You may find a bstock unit with
Lens even cheaper

Ok, thanks.

I was looking at setting up a second unit or "backup kit" which I could do for around $20,000 complete with tripod, radio mics and so forth. Just to clarify, the SOny here is $11,500 incl GST and the Panny is $20,000.

With the Panny, I would be up for that without the rest of the kit.

one other thing is the rolling shutter on the Sony. For spot
News, emergency lights going to look ugly. I would keep the dsr570
As my backup. Another option, sony f330 xdcam

The build quality on the S270 is ok, but really not up to the rigors of daily ENG use. Let your usage pattern be the guide.

-gb-

one other thing is the rolling shutter on the Sony. For spot
News, emergency lights going to look ugly. I would keep the dsr570
As my backup. Another option, sony f330 xdcamSorry Scott, I don't understand what you mean by the lights looking ugly, would you explain, please? And does the "Rolling Shutter" affect the PAL (Aus) versions of the 270? Thanks for the response.

The build quality on the S270 is ok, but really not up to the rigors of daily ENG use. Let your usage pattern be the guide.

-gb-
I would use the camera two to three times a week for mainly picture stories, pickup interviews for other stories, and press conferences as well as football training and so forth. Would then probably also use it for the odd wedding here and there as well. I work by myself and am not in the "media scrum" situation every day by any means. Every so often I will work with a reporter.

My 570 - that is nearly 5 years old - looks like new except where a ring on my finger has worn some of the black paint off the underside of the handle.

So if the build quality is not going to be too much of an issue - what about the actual picture quality and usability/convenience of the camera compared to the 570....considering the CF Flash recorder on the 270 would take the place of the huge FS-3 Firestore drive? The whole thing would be more compact than what I have now.

Just concerned about that viewfinder and picture quality with the supplied lens....

Cheers and thanks for the response!

one other thing is the rolling shutter on the Sony. For spot
News, emergency lights going to look ugly. I would keep the dsr570
As my backup. Another option, sony f330 xdcam

Hi Scott,

I understand there other options are available, but wouldn't the F330 be substantially more expensive than a 270?

I can buy a COMPLETE HVR-S270 kit here for $20k.

do a search about rolling shutter and police lights. you would be downgrading
going from 2/3" chips to 1/3". My vote still goes to the panasonic. the same tripod,
wireless and batteries you have now, would work. Do you use Anton Bauer? Hell,
you can get an adapter plate for any battery manufacturer.

do a search about rolling shutter and police lights. you would be downgrading
going from 2/3" chips to 1/3". My vote still goes to the panasonic. the same tripod,
wireless and batteries you have now, would work. Do you use Anton Bauer? Hell,
you can get an adapter plate for any battery manufacturer.

Hi Scott, the idea is that I get a whole new kit for $20k. The Panasonic or F330 would mean the budget is instantly blown. I need to buy a whole new kit as a backup/2nd unit.

I guess I have to ask the question again: would it be a good news camera or not and why.

Thanks!

Ok, rolling shutter problems...yuk! But most of my work would be through the day now thatwe don't "ambulance-chase" as much as we used to, purely because we can no longer hear Police radios here.

Anyway, the cam was also going to be used for the occasional wedding, so perhaps that is out, too.

Might just stick with the DSR570 or, like you said, go the Panasonic P2. If I just wanted to upgrade my camera, $28k with HD lens here in Australia at the moment and 1 x 32gb card.

WOW, that price increase is INSANE. for news I say NO;

1. 1/3" chips
2. start/stop delay
3. rolling shutter
4. price compared to 2/3" units
5. build quality (depends on usage)

Can you rent one and try it out?

I just wrote a long reply & my browser just deleted it, so here is the short version.

I've shot a lot of ENG. I've used real ENG cameras & cameras that aren't built for ENG. The non-ENG cameras have issues & they aren't that fun to use when you need a real ENG camera for covering real ENG.

I've shot ENG w/ the Z1 & Z7. The best thing I can say about these cameras is that they produce wonderful images & they don't piss me off. I'm a little bit of a camera snob & so the above is a compliment.

The S270 isn't a real ENG camera. The Panasonic HVX500 is a real ENG camera & probably the best / cheapest one of the market today. If the Panny is too costly, get the Ex3. About the same price of the S270 & will have a much better picture.

Viewfinder is a big MINUS for the S270 & I don't know why Sony didn't move the LCD & have an option for other VFs (like on the XL1).

As for the lens being soft, I haven't noticed any problems on my Z7. There were some bad apples out there, and a lot of people here have issues w/ the autofocus. My opinion on the autofocus is that I shoot manual, just like professional race car drivers drive manual cars.

Ok, FINALLY I have used the S270 for a day. Finally. I know it is built to a budget, but I think it could have easily been better. If it had been, my thoughts are it would have been a killer camera for news.

My opinion:

It is a great camera package in theory but in practice, it is painful to use coming from a DSR-570.

Focus/iris control way too fiddly and confusing to be a true professional camera. The lens would have to go. I kept thinking I was controlling the iris manually but then the iris would change by itself.

Overall feel, while looking like a 450 or 570, is like a toy. The casing is too black (makes it look cheap) and the feel of the switches and controls is cheap. I guess this comes from being used to a heavier metal body as opposed to the plastic body of the 270.

Pictures in DVCAM mode far inferior to the DSR-570, which is understandable considering the smaller chip size in the 270 although I thought technology might have made it at least almost as good.

...and what a shame the Sony WRR wireless mic setups don't work with the V-mount on the 270.

Shame also that the CF recorder (one of the main things that drew my attention to the 270) only records in RAW DV or AVI mode. To me this means every file loaded into Final Cut has to be rendered before being edited or compressed. It should be able to record Quicktime files as well.

The lens size and viewfinder even looks wrong.

But: I like the LCD on top of the VF, especially for when walking backwards in a media scrum situation...allows you to see what you are shooting clearly, but allowing your peripheral vision to come into play as you can see to both sides and in front of you.

I like the image stabilisation, too.

But I am going to give it a workout over the weekend and see if I can get a better feel for it.

do a search about rolling shutter and police lights.

I have a Sony V1 and I heard all of the horror stories about police strobes and the "dreaded rolling shutter effect". So I have a friend who is in the fire department and one night I wandered over to the station and got her to crank up the strobes outside. I must have done something wrong because I was able to record the strobes without any weird artifacts at all. Of course, the V1 could be different than the S270.

I have done this change of cameras but have just returned off holiday so will report when my brain gets in to gear!

Overall feel, while looking like a 450 or 570, is like a toy. The casing is too black (makes it look cheap) and the feel of the switches and controls is cheap. I guess this comes from being used to a heavier metal body as opposed to the plastic body of the 270.

That's what I meant in my post above. I don't think it would stand up to the rigors of daily ENG use.

As for FCP, I have brought AVI files directly info FCP. You'll get a warning about them not being optimized but they still work. This was actually a few years ago before FCS came out. I haven't tried any AVI files recently.

In HDV mode, you can attach the CF unit and open FCP's Log and Transfer to bring in the clips. I know this works because I demo'd it at WEVA last month.

-gb-

Hi David,

Have you looked at the JVC range of cameras?
Nick

Hi David,

Have you looked at the JVC range of cameras?
Nick

Yes...not too sure about them.

David,

What about the DSR-450WSP. It's not HD but one great SD 2/3" type PowerHAD EX 3CCDs tape based camera. I dont know how much though.

Nick

David,

What about the DSR-450WSP. It's not HD but one great SD 2/3" type PowerHAD EX 3CCDs tape based camera. I dont know how much though.

Nick

SRP for a DSR450WSPL is $19,250.00 ex GST

interestingly, SRP for a PDWF335L is only $17,900 ex GST.

Either way, both seem to be out of the price range of the OP for what he is trying to achieve.

Those prices are steep but then again that’s what ya gotta pay.
I think the s270 would be suitable, I know it's not 2/3" or 1/2" chips but for the price and what it can do. I wonder how the lens is for SD and also the down convert from HD to SD?
Seems the s270 can handle low light and recording to tape and card is a real bonus.
This camera is very quiet, what I mean is there is not much to read about. Either the community have bypassed this camera or it's great and no one has any hassles with it. Could it be a winner?

Nick

I have a feeling I might have had some settings wrong when trying the 270.

When I watch the vision back on a monitor in the edit suite tonight, the pictures are kind of strobeing with some kind of shimmer effect to them.

I was sure I had it on 25p in DVCAM mode, but it certainly has a shutter effect to it.

Maybe I didn't give it a fair trial, but I guess it still has the dicky viewfinder...

So here is the possible option since insurance will not cover me for a new lens:

Buy the 270. Use the extra money we save from buying this camera to have our 2/3" fujinon lens repaired, but while it is being repaired, use the stock lens. Once our lens is repaired, put it on the 270 with an adaptor. Won't be as wide as it normally is (6.3), but at least the 270 will have a nice lens on it and the control will be there.

Could someone tell me what I will lose from my normal lens by putting it on a 1/3 camera with an adaptor?

Cheers,

DC

Could someone tell me what I will lose from my normal lens by putting it on a 1/3 camera with an adaptor?
I wouldn't do that. Technically, no problem, and may be positively desirable if you're doing something like wildlife where you want telephoto power rather than wide angle.

A 6.3mm focal length lens used with a 1/3" chip camera will be equivalent in angle of view terms to a 12.6mm lens on a 2/3" camera. I think most people would consider that nowhere near a wide enough angle for general use.

Does the 270 not come with a basic lens? I think that may actually be better than trying to use the 6.3mm lens with it.

David is right. The focal lenght from your 2/3" lens is going to be doubled when putting it on a 1/3" camera. To me this is certainly not wide enough for shooting everyday news.

Ok, I understand. 12.6 not good.

Does the 270 not come with a basic lens? I think that may actually be better than trying to use the 6.3mm lens with it.

Yes it does, but it's pretty ordinary.

Mind you, I think I shot everything incorrectly as all the vision looks jittery.

David, You can probably check your camera settings by reviewing the data code information on the recorded tape. That way, you might be able to spot any settings that don't seem right. I don't have the S270 but I would expect that it has similar features to the rest of the family. Also, did you have steadyshot on? If you did, what mode? Some settings in steadyshot can cause some problems also.

All it says on the data code is:

ATW
MANUAL
0dB
F2.8

and then a number above the F reading that changes constantly during the shot if the scene changes. 600, 300, 25, 50, 425, 215, 100 etc.

But the vision is definitely jittery with panning, tilting and any movement within the shot. And the pictures look very contrasty.

The problem with not being familiar with a camera!

Cheers.

I have not used the S270 but I would have to guess that the number that is changing is the shutter speed, since shudder speed usually is one of the bits of information that is displayed when data code is turned on. That would indicate that your shutter speeds were all over the map and could have been causing some of the issues you saw. Plus I have found that the "normal" setting for the steadyshot produces little jolts if your pan covers too many degress of rotation. The image has to catch up from time to time and makes the image jump. The soft setting on steadyshot produces better results to my eye. If you are shooting off of sticks, I would turn steadyshot off.

So I wonder why the shutter speed was changing with every shot I was taking.

Every new shot had a different number there. I must have had a setting wrong.

If the s270 is like the Z7 then you have to switch each setting into manual. I had this when I started as I switched to manual but then could not understand why gain was also being added. You need to switch each function manually, in the case of the shutter speed you should see it displayed in the viewfinder if it is in manual. The same goes for all the other settings so at the bottom you will see the gain the f-stop shutter speed and colour balance.

Its actually very flexible as it allows you to leave certain things in auto, I personally use auto white balance a lot of the time and sometimes switch the iris into auto or use the quick exposure set button near the zoom control.

if the 270 is like the 250 then there should be a switch on the front of the camera that reads 'shutter' this switch needs to be set to the 'on' position. Though it seems counter-intuitive this places control of the shutter into the hands of the operator. I don't think the 500 series had this.

I could be wrong, it's way early in the morning and I haven't had any coffee yet :-(

Don

I tried my 270 in 25P and it does look jittery ....so called film effect but basically rubbish. Try taking it out of 25P and go to interlaced...I would bet it will disappear. I have no problem on my 270 with jitter and I dont think its the shutter unless you have changed the normal setting. I have had a letter published in Zerb, the magazine of the UK Guild of TV cameramen, about the cameras shortcomings. I still like the camera but dont like the viewfinder at all, and the lens is just about Ok when you get used to it.

Hi David

I'm coming late to this discussion - maybe you've made a decision by now, but here's a thought for you.

I use a JVC HD111 for news and docs all over Africa and the Middle East. It's not perfect, but it might be worth your while having a look at it (or the 200/250, which is the current equivalent.) I shoot approx 10 days a month on mine, and have owned it since Jan 07. I moved to it from a DXCD30/DSR rig, rather like the 570.

Pros:
1: Well within your price range - i got an HD111, Sennheiser radio mic set, Swit batteries and charger, Vinten sticks, and a clutch of other bits and pieces for GBP4500 - about AUSD10,500.
2: fairly robust, for what it is - mine gets hauled around some stupid places, in awful conditions (dust, rain, sand-storms, fire-fights, helicopters - you can imagine) and it's held up pretty well over two years.
3: SD and HDV, tape or an easily mountable firestore.
4: Big enough (just) to look like a serious camera, and with proper shoulder mounted ergonomics.
5: The stock lens is adequate. But there is a superb Fujinon 13x wide angle that would still come in under your budget - they're around USD6000 at the moment.
6: excellent support from an very active user community on this board.

Cons:

1: pretty average low-light performaance. Actually, not good low-light performance.
2: Problems with editing JVC's HDV codec in final cut pro - though this is being worked out. There's masses of discussion on the Pro HD board at DV info.
3: You'll want to change your XLR jacks to L shaped plugs, as the mounting position means standard jacks catch on stuff.
4: A propensity to blow firewire ports when using Macs - something to do with static discharge. Again, a 30 dollar fix can work around this.
5: The view finder is pretty crappy.


It's not perfect, for sure. But I really like the camera - I've worked in news and docs for getting on for 20 years, with all kinds of cameras (mostly beta SP format) - and this one is a pleasure to use.

Have a look at it before you open your wallet.

Best wishes

Rob Adams

I'm following this discussion intently as these are decisions I am making right now.

I'm looking for a shoulder-mount camera that's going to go the distance. From what I've seen and heard here and elsewhere, it's really a two brand race at this budget, Sony S270 or JVC 111/201.

From a build point of view the JVC is solid, I've used the 101 and it was great, ergonomically and structurally. Nice pictures in SD too. Robert's point about low light performance concerns me a bit, how bad can it be? Is there any footage online to give me some idea?

I've got a job interstate next week and would rather hire a 101 or 201, unfortunately I can only find a 251, which I don't have the deck for nor firestore, so it looks like I'm using a S270.

At least this will give me an idea to test out what it's like.

I'm interested to hear what the verdict is David.

hi Tyler,

I think the low light performance on the JVC is a function of chip size. According the Shaun Roemich on the JVC ProHD board on this site, "The sensitivity of the HD2xx series is F8 at 2000 lux, I believe. Professional SD cameras have been at least F11 at 2000 lux for more than 10 years. The 1/3" chips will rob you of light."

Here's the discussion that comment came from:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/jvc-pro-hd-acquisition-systems/129541-should-buy-jvc-gy-hd-250-u-dvccam.html

How bad can it be? well, I'm ok, I mostly work in brightly-lit countries. But on an overcast afternoon, under trees, in buildings, I find myself running out of stops about two stops before I'd expect to on a Betacam AP400.

But the gain is pretty good, not too noisy, so I have my Gain control set to 3db and 6db, which (at a pinch) gives me back those two stops.