I haven't seen any threads on this topic, would love to get some opinions. We've shot a number of mutli-cam projects using A1s, XL2s and XLH1s, and have noticed a dinstinctly flat, almost mono track from the A1s (on-camera mic) when compared in post to the vibrant stereo tracks from the XL2s and XLH1s (also the on-camera mics). A1s are recording to tracks 1 & 2 (in stereo), but in post the A1 track sounds very flat against the tracks from the other cams. Are we missing something in the channel mix (A1 menus)? Factory settings there.

Solid levels, 48kHz, 16bit, matching audio settings all around, & confident it isn't camera placement or a capture issue, consistent as well. We've tried the A1 in every track configuration to no avail.

I wouldn't expect the greatest sound from an on-camera mic but the difference is really suprising. No real improvement with an NTG1 either.

Would love some thoughts on the topic. Thanks.

You mention A1s (plural) at the beginning of your post, but "the A1 track" and "the A1" later on. Definitely the same issue from several different Canon XH-A1s?

When you say "flat" do you mean as in "poor stereo image", or "limited frequency response" or "uneven frequency response" or what?

The mic - external XLR camera mounted or built in Canon mic?
The NTG1 would give a rather poor stereo image, being a mono mic (sorry :-)

Also, have you ever had what you consider to be satisfactory audio from the A1 camera(s)?

Thanks Colin. Yes, identical issue with several A1s.

Our issue is mainly with audio recorded through the on-board mic. There is improvement in audio quality with Senheiser lavs (via XLR), but we have yet to obtain stellar audio with the A1 in any other config. Trying to get a similar sterescopic quality we hear from the XL2/XLH1 audio (on-board mics as well) since the A1 mic is supposedly stereo.

Not sure how to technically define "flat"... Left/Right channels very distinct/stereoscopic on XL2/XLH1 tracks; whereas Left/Right not nearly as distinct on the A1 tracks. I would also characterize A1 audio (on-board mic) as having limited frequency response with a tendency to clip (attenuation seems to help only somewhat).

Any ideas?

Thanks Colin. Yes, identical issue with several A1s.

Our issue is mainly with audio recorded through the on-board mic. There is improvement in audio quality with Senheiser lavs (via XLR), but we have yet to obtain stellar audio with the A1 in any other config. Trying to get a similar sterescopic quality we hear from the XL2/XLH1 audio (on-board mics as well) since the A1 mic is supposedly stereo.

Not sure how to technically define "flat"... Left/Right channels very distinct/stereoscopic on XL2/XLH1 tracks; whereas Left/Right not nearly as distinct on the A1 tracks. I would also characterize A1 audio (on-board mic) as having limited frequency response with a tendency to clip (attenuation seems to help only somewhat).

Any ideas?

I don't use the on-board mics much (just for ambient audio). I haven't really checked the stereo separation and anyway have fairly low expectations of the sound from on-board mics.

When recording 2 distinct channels straight to the camera using XLR inputs with Rode NT 1As I've been very impressed, but I don't have an XL2 or XLH1 for comparisons.

I've always believed the audio on the XH-A1 was normally pretty good. Anyone else care to comment?

I don't have a problem with the audio, and on my camera it's been intercut with audio and video from much more expensive cameras. I don't use the built-in mic. I have an old Sony short shotgun mounted on the camera for grabbing ambient sound, then use either a wireless or wired shotgun on a fishpole for dialog.

The on-board mics are actually pretty good, as on-board mics go. On the odd occassions when I've not been able to rig my NTG-1, they've been quite acceptable. They're fairly well isolated from motor and handling noise and the frequency response is OK, too. As you'd expect, they have a fairly wide pick-up pattern and a shorter "reach" than a hyper cardioid or short-shotgun. Because of the (relatively) good bass-response, though, you'll need a wind gag of some sort.

Generally, I have found the audio at least as good as the Sony FX1 and Canon XM1/XM2 that some of my friends/collaborators use and probably better than the Sony HC7 and Canon HV20.

I believe the XL2 and XLH1 have the same on-board (stereo) short shotgun. It's a dual stereo 1/8" mini input. I'm wondering why Canon opted for a single mini input on the A1? I can't imagine this reflecting on the A1's on-board mic, but I could be wrong given the issue.

I'm guessing (and griping) that perhaps this is why the stereo seperation from an XL2 track (an older rig) blows that from the A1 (IMHO) out of the water?

This may be a post for another thread, but can anyone recomend a mid-to-high-end short stereo shotgun with great stereo seperation? Looking at the Audio Technica BP409. Any experience? Suggestions? Thanks.

I believe the XL2 and XLH1 have the same on-board (stereo) short shotgun. It's a dual stereo 1/8" mini input. I'm wondering why Canon opted for a single mini input on the A1? I can't imagine this reflecting on the A1's on-board mic, but I could be wrong given the issue.

I'm guessing (and griping) that perhaps this is why the stereo seperation from an XL2 track (an older rig) blows that from the A1 (IMHO) out of the water?

This may be a post for another thread, but can anyone recomend a mid-to-high-end short stereo shotgun with great stereo seperation? Looking at the Audio Technica BP409. Any experience? Suggestions? Thanks.
At the budget end of the market, some friends have had very good results from the Rode Stereo VideoMic, which is about £100 in the UK. Frequncy response is very good and the pick-up angle is rather narrower than normal on-camera mics, though wider than a mono shotgun, obviously. IIRC there's a huge price gap between mics like the Rode and the "pro" stereo mics from AT and AKG (with the exception of a couple of Sonys??). How about using two super-cardioids mounted at a narrow angle?

You'll probably find the advice you need in the audio forum (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/all-things-audio/).

Speaking as someone who is not particularly 'technical' but quite fussy when it comes to sound and vision, I must say I have been totally under-impressed by the sound quality. To me it is ever so slightly like recording someone speaking down a hole and I am comparing the sound to that on my little Sony HDR-HC3 HD handycam which is crisp responsive and if anything too sensitive.

I recently did a corporate shoot, basically consisted of 4 people around a table in a semi-circle. There was no set up time, no time for clip-on mics or even desk mounted mics, not even my trusty Edirol R09HR. I literally had to go with the camera mic. in this situation I decided the shoot needed back-up so filmed with both the Canon and the little Sony handycam.

In post I ended up using the more responsive, crisp, sharp, clear Sony sound track.

I think I should add that when I bought the Canon, like so many people I guess, I was concerned with picture quality, so much so it never even occured to me to test or question sound - I wonder how many people do? Yet poor sound is a **** of a thing to get around both pre and post production if your camera isn't up to it

My sound quality is better than what I was getting with a DSR500. But I don't use the built-in mic. It's odd that the camera even has one. I guess Canon thought it would be nice to have for recording ambient noise, but it really should never be used for anything significant. I think you're probably right about the consumer camera built-in mic being better. I remember a few years ago doing a shoot with a DSR250 and a Sony TRV900 consumer camera, picking up ambient sound of people talking. The sound from the built-in mic on the 900 was better than that from the camera-mounted mic that came with the 250. If a mic comes with a camera or is built into it, it's just a throwaway from the manufacturer. Probably somebody in accounting tells the designers that they can sell some of the pro cameras to consumers if they include a mic. And I guess if you're just doing grab-shot home movies, or in your case corporate, it's better to have some mic than no mic.

I haven't seen any threads on this topic, would love to get some opinions. We've shot a number of mutli-cam projects using A1s, XL2s and XLH1s, and have noticed a dinstinctly flat, almost mono track from the A1s (on-camera mic) when compared in post to the vibrant stereo tracks from the XL2s and XLH1s (also the on-camera mics). A1s are recording to tracks 1 & 2 (in stereo), but in post the A1 track sounds very flat against the tracks from the other cams. Are we missing something in the channel mix (A1 menus)? Factory settings there.

Solid levels, 48kHz, 16bit, matching audio settings all around, & confident it isn't camera placement or a capture issue, consistent as well. We've tried the A1 in every track configuration to no avail.

I wouldn't expect the greatest sound from an on-camera mic but the difference is really suprising. No real improvement with an NTG1 either.

Would love some thoughts on the topic. Thanks.


I think the XH-A1 onboard mic is not bad, but I agree it could be described as a little "flat" sounding. As others have also said, I generally never use it.

Thanks guys. Great insight. It's a bummer that Canon put more into the XL2 than the A1 in terms of built-in audio.

Phil, I too have an old Sony TRV900 lying around and am sad to agree that it's given us better ambient audio than our A1s. I too have found myself in many run & gun situations where the built-in mic was the only option.

I didn't realize Rode made a stereo VideoMic? Strikes me as low-end but I'll definitely check it out.

Thanks for the heads up on this. I'm getting very close to grabbing the XH-A1, and this is helpful info. Up until now, I have been using the Sony HC1 (purchased in april 2006). The audio on it is not perfect, but I always felt it was very good and for the stand up vids I had recorded for people, I just used that (it was nothing really too professional).

However, if the built in mic on the XH-A1 is that bad, I should perhaps look into getting some sort of mic right away. I know the Rode Stereo Videomic was mentioned in this thread. What are thoughts on the AT822? The reason I am interested in that is because I am also a minidisc user and over on two thread I started and/or was a part of on the minidisc forums
(
recording stand up via minidisc: http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=11869
video production via minidisc: http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=15910&st=0&p=100519&#entry100519
)

The AT822 was highly recommended.

My XH-A1 has a Rode NTG-1 on top of it every time I take it out of the case, plus either a Pro88W (with XLR adapter) or another external mic (usually a Shure handheld), unless I have room, time, need, and space to set up a pair of Nady Starpowers on stands.

I have never, once, in the six months six months I've had it, recorded with the XH-A1 built-in mics.

Come to think of it, I haven't ever used the built-in mics on the Sony A1U I've had for two years now, nor have I used the built-in mics on my "bought in 1999 and still going strong" Sony TRV 900 since I bought a Rode VideoMic for it back in... well, long enough ago that I don't remember.

The only built-in mic I use is on my little Flip Video thingie, which I have because I do tech support for a local citizen journalism operation that has standardized on them.

For my "real" work, I *never* use a camcorder's built-in mics.

Call me silly, but that's the way I am.

Robin

I admit to not having got into the audio side of things yet - concentrate what little time I have for video on getting the pictures right - but you mentioned the Sony A1. How do you rate the external mic that came with that camera. I have never used mine due to the fiddly nature of setting it up. But would it be any better on the Canon A1 than the Canon built-in mic?

Take it away: Tony Kofi on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/1205364)
This saxophone was recorded with the in-built mics.
They were my back-up.
They gave an excellent result.

Robin

I admit to not having got into the audio side of things yet - concentrate what little time I have for video on getting the pictures right - but you mentioned the Sony A1. How do you rate the external mic that came with that camera. I have never used mine due to the fiddly nature of setting it up. But would it be any better on the Canon A1 than the Canon built-in mic?

The "comes with" short shotgun on the A1U (grabs cam out of bag to look) is a Sony part # ECM-NV1. It's good for spoken voice and more directional than most short shotguns I've used, which makes it great for "run and gun" news shooting. And that's what the A1U is designed for, no?

For music, it's not a good mic. My Rode NTG1 has a MUCH wider frequency response. Ditto my Nady Starpowers on stands -- a pair of them is my favorite stereo recording rig for live event shoots.

On the A1U I use the supplied shotgun and either an Audio-Technica Pro88W VHF wireless mic set or a Shure handheld as my most common setups -- with AGC -- and don't worry about a thing. On the XH-A1... I'm still dicking around with sound. I have hiss problems with the Pro88W, although not with my Samson UHF wireless rig *if* I set the rcvr output level to -20 with the attenuator on that channel "off" and the one that takes my NTG-1 (my shotguns are always Ch. 1) set "on" to compensate for the higher gain from that mic.

I've never had to fiddle with the shotgun on the A1U. I plug it in, make sure it has phantom power, and it's AGC all the way -- at least for news/interview work, which is most of what I do.

I've used the Sony shotgun mic on the Canon, too, for some fast news shoots, and it's fine -- for its intended purpose.

As far as not having had time yet to mess with sound: Huh?

Annie, I do this video stuff for money, and I assure you that between 60% and 80% of what separates pro video from amateur shooting is sound. I have no choice but to be obsessed with sound. Yes, I have denoising software, but that always denigrates audio quality.

I am not rich, so I am careful about the gear I buy. I am supremely irritated right now to find that my venerable Pro88W wireless mics are so poor with the XH-A1. I suppose (sigh) that to do interviews with two wireless lav mics I'll need to buy another Samson set on a different freq.

Or just go back to using the Sony A1U unless I *must* use the XH-A1. The Canon is a fine piece of equipment, but that little Sony is rugged and simple and I understand it and it understands me. Again, (sigh).

Hi Robin

Thanks for that info. My interest is in wildlife rather than people, so I haven't had to deal with the quality of voice or music recordings yet. Mostly I record ambient sound either directly to tape using either built-in mics or a Sennheiser MKE66 which was recommended as a good budget mic for wildlife. If things go according to plan, I should have time this winter to do a lot more with video and to get more familliar with the sound recording side of it.

I must add my sixpenn'oth and voice my disappointment at the in-built mics.

Yes, I know that one should use an external mic and I have a luverly MKH50 for that purpose but recently I took the XH A1 out and, being tired and lazy at the end of the day... I used the in-built mics for atmos. Unless the sound source is very loud or someone speaks within a yard of the camcorder, the result is awful and virtually unusable. "Sounds like a recording from the bottom of a bucket" is the phrase which comes to mind. I hate to admit it but my cheapo SD Sony sounds much better!

So IMNSHO (in my not-so-humble opinion) the XH is effin' superb on the images but below par on the in-built mics and audio ease-of-use generally (and why-oh-why do the sound level wheels turn the "wrong" way?).

Hey Kevin, I'm kind of surprised by this comparison XL2 vs XH-A1?

Audio has matured to the point were there's not much that can be done to make high quality audio imput equipment cheaper.. In this case, something has got to give.

When you compare the XL2 to the XL-H1, that would be an oranges to oranges comparison.

However, when you compare the XL2 or even XL1 to the XH-A1, that's a bananas to oranges comparison. The XH-A1 gives you so much more in terms of imaging, but you have to give in somewhere to make the unit priced for the general prosumer.

Think of it this way, you get what you pay for right? You paid for a video camera made to take great video(which it does), but you weren't really paying for a multi-track recorder(so you're left with the crappy onboard mic).

I hear you. The XL2 and H1 deliver virtually identical audio characteristics (identical on-board mics & inputs). Canon could've at least included a dual stereo mini-in so A1 users could swap in the mic from these cams.

As far as I know, the HDV spec has stereo 384 Kb per second compressed MP3 audi0-- worse than the uncompressed audio spec of SD, which is uncompressed 16 bit 44.1 Khz.

I think they thought MP3 was "good enough" and they thereby saved some of the bandwidth ( limited by what you can write to tape per second) for the extremely compressed HDV video.

It might not be the mikes.

I believe the XL2 and XLH1 have the same on-board (stereo) short shotgun. It's a dual stereo 1/8" mini input. I'm wondering why Canon opted for a single mini input on the A1?

Probably is the same mic, and the likely same used on the XL1 and XL1s as well.

Note that the "dual" plug, one (the 3.5mm) is the stereo unbalanced audio, the other (2.5mm) is for the 5 VDC power the mic draws from the camcorder. This mic powering scheme dates back at least to the to the Canon Hi8 (A1 and L1/L2) camcorders from the early 1990s, if not before.

The XH-A1 does not provide the 5 VDC power option to its mini phone external mic jack.

Has anyone had a problem with their external mic not fitting into the clip that is mounted on the A1? I just received my Sennheiser ME-66 in the mail the other day and when I tried to put it in the clip it was too small :( I am considering taping a bunch of Gaff to it so it's thick enough... its sad to have to tape up a beautiful new mic...

Has anyone had a problem with their external mic not fitting into the clip that is mounted on the A1? I just received my Sennheiser ME-66 in the mail the other day and when I tried to put it in the clip it was too small :( I am considering taping a bunch of Gaff to it so it's thick enough... its sad to have to tape up a beautiful new mic...
It's a common problem. Solutions include rubber O-rings (high-class rubber bands), small sheets of rubber, bubble pack, etc.

However, I find that the rigid mount transmits too much motor and handling noise, even with padding between holder and mic. (I have the old XH-A1. I think the new XH-A1s has a better, less rigid design.) I use a simple shock-mount in the hot-shoe socket. There are various makes, including Rode, Rycote, Bayer Dynamic, Audio Technica, etc.

If you have other gadgets in the shoe socket, try a "J-Rod" or the Rode SM5 (I think) which both fit into the round mic-holder.

It's a common problem. Solutions include rubber O-rings (high-class rubber bands), small sheets of rubber, bubble pack, etc.

However, I find that the rigid mount transmits too much motor and handling noise, even with padding between holder and mic. (I have the old XH-A1. I think the new XH-A1s has a better, less rigid design.) I use a simple shock-mount in the hot-shoe socket. There are various makes, including Rode, Rycote, Bayer Dynamic, Audio Technica, etc.

If you have other gadgets in the shoe socket, try a "J-Rod" or the Rode SM5 (I think) which both fit into the round mic-holder.

Thanks for the tip mark! sorry to hijack the thread...

As far as I know, the HDV spec has stereo 384 Kb per second compressed MP3 audi0-- worse than the uncompressed audio spec of SD, which is uncompressed 16 bit 44.1 Khz.

I think they thought MP3 was "good enough" and they thereby saved some of the bandwidth ( limited by what you can write to tape per second) for the extremely compressed HDV video.

It might not be the mikes.

It's not MP3 Alain but you're right about the mics.

I think a lot of peoples A1 mic evaluations are based on how they handle the A1s HDV MPEG 1 Layer 11 audio compression during post. It's not great quality to start with but lower quality rendering makes it worse.

IMO the A1 cam mic is really only useable for general location sfx. if you've got nothing else but I've had reasonable results.

And although the picture might look great, the sound is bad because the cam mic was in the wrong position, 5 feet to the left or right might have been much better, a good case for using headphones and having the time to play.

I find the RODE Stereo Videomic is excellent for SFX on the A1, its 10db pad on the rear is quick and handy. The AT822 is also very good.

Cheers.

Has anyone had a problem with their external mic not fitting into the clip that is mounted on the A1?

Want a simpler way that doesn't need any extra kit? Loop the mic cable through the mic holder underneath the mic. This works fine with my Rode NTG-1. Doesn't stop the noise problem though.

I use a hot shoe shock mount most of the time since when the Rode is wearing the dead cat, you'll see fur in frame on full zoom out with the Canon mount.