Don't know a lot (barely anything) on making DVD:s.

But does somebody have knowledge of the quality of the SDI out from the camera?

You could edit in FCP and export the MP4 film back to the SxS card via Transfer manager and play it out from the camera via SDI or composite.

Thanks for an informative thread. I've been battling with exactly this issue since I bought the camera. The way I downconvert now is simply to change the timeline setting to a DV Pal timeline and then export it (FCP). Just switched from Avid to FCP and find the import and export routines a lot simpler and faster on FCP.

Interestingly I have tried Mpeg streamclip and the results I have got out of it have been dire. looks like a badly compressed dogs dinner. Blocking, blurry and rubbish. Obviously doing somethig wrong as its just unusable.

Andy, I think one of the problems is that you are viewing it in simulator in DVD studio pro. it looks great on your monitor. All nice and compact. then you burn it to dvd and play it in your dvd player onto your tv ( not sure what TV you have? Plasma? LCD? Screen size?) and its blown up to 32 inches? less more? thats a lot bigger screen than the simulator on the apple monitor.

Interestingly I have tried Mpeg streamclip and the results I have got out of it have been dire

My best result with MPSC (if I remember rightly) was converting ProRes422 to DV. Then I put that into DVDSP.

I think one of the problems is that you are viewing it in simulator in DVD studio pro. it looks great on your monitor. All nice and compact. then you burn it to dvd and play it in your dvd player onto your tv ( not sure what TV you have? Plasma? LCD? Screen size?) and its blown up to 32 inches? less more? thats a lot bigger screen than the simulator on the apple monitor.

Yes I realise that, but I think the difference is too great to be explained that way. In the past, I've read many posts from people far more experienced than me, telling us not to pay much attention to the DVDSP Simulator because the resolution's very low.

The more serious comparison I'm making is with a previous DVD we made a few years ago - shot with PD170 (SD) - with a very similar subject, scenes etc etc.

Viewed on the LG CRT, the old SD footage is vastly superior to the downconverted EX1 footage - but on the DVDSP Simulator, the downconverted EX1 footage looks slightly better than the SD!

(The mind boggles).

Have you thought about Bootcamp and chucking a copy of Vegas/Architect on it to see how that compares to FCP/Compressor. There's a 30 day trial available and if it still looks like a dogs dinner........

Have you thought about Bootcamp and chucking a copy of Vegas/Architect on it to see how that compares to FCP/Compressor. There's a 30 day trial available and if it still looks like a dogs dinner........

Thanks Steve - but I'm running one of those vintage (barely 2 year old) G5s.
I want to get a Mac Pro quite soon but not really before I finish this project.

I may have to though - it would open up other possibilities - including Bit Vice (2.4), Episode etc etc

But really, I'm exploring the possibilities of a hardware downconversion now.

Quite soon, I suspect there will be an EX1 on eBay UK!

Fabulous camera, but it's a complete dud if I can't get my footage on DVD at a reasonable quality.

it's a complete dud if I can't get my footage on DVD at a reasonable quality.

As a fellow Mac toting FCP user, I can absolutely positively attest at getting great SD DVDs from EX1 footage using Compressor. And I'm assuming up to date FCS 2.0 here, bets are off on earlier versions.

Edit in FCP using the native XDCAM-EX format, export a self contained QT in the native format, plunk it into Compressor and drag one of the standard presets (I tend to use 120 even for short movies because the data rate is client-friendly.

And that's pretty much it for most of the time, and clients noticed the step up from Z1 to EX1 from the DVDs.

In the early days, I tried doing the downconvert in FCP and this required some chicken-waving regarding fields, output quality and scaling quality, as I could see aliasing problems with near horizontal lines. But certainly not eye crossing blurriness.

The only thing I can think of regarding your previous comment about CRTs is that somehow your progressive footage is being treated as interlaced, and is having a very savage deinterlace done to it.

Note that if you want 'video' motion, it means shooting 720p 50fps, turning on the advanced controls in Compressor and turning interlacing ON (IIRC - don't have access to my cookbook). There are also some times when extra fiddling IS required (perhaps a bit of blur etc) but right now most of my stuff has been treated very nicely by Compressor.

FWIW I've also found Clip Browser to do nice things with downconverted rushes, but I stick to 720p25 for almost everything now. I can deliver native 1280x720 WMV added to an SD DVD, and enjoy the benefits of 60fps when required.

Andy:
I am sorry that You still don't get satisfying results. But I wonder why You are ignoring the solution like editing in hd, adding a little vertical blur and the downconvert in Aftereffects or something like that. Or have a missed something in this meanwhile long discussion ?

I wouldn't sell the ex1. There's nothing better at the moment - except ex3 :)

Peter

I wonder why You are ignoring the solution like editing in hd, adding a little vertical blur and the downconvert in Aftereffects or something like that

Peter (and everyone else who's been kind enough to try to help me with this) please understand that the situation is fairly desperate here so if I don't reply to every post, I hope you'll forgive me.

We've been working on this project solidly from May 2008 until the present time. It never occurred to me that we'd have trouble downconverting footage to SD and now, with the project way behind schedule we have to do whatever we can to get it back on track.

I have a G5 Mac (not Intel) so many options are closed off to me, including, I believe, AE. But I would buy a new Mac Pro on Monday morning if I was convinced:
a) It would mean the footage could be converted to a suitable standard and
b) there would be time to do all that was necessary to get our DVD released in early January (nearly three months later than we announced originally).

At the moment we are anxiously awaiting test footage from a Hardware Downconversion which I am hopeful will give us a better result. I've tried dozens of different encoding methods and to be perfectly honest, the difference in the quality has been barely discernable.

I have also sent test footage away for others to work on (with software) all with similar results to mine with Compressor and MPEG Streamclip.

I wouldn't sell the ex1. There's nothing better at the moment - except ex3 :)

I think the likelyhood of me owning an EX1 beyond early January is very slim. The camera (with certain reservations) is superb for the money, but I need excellent quality footage I can put on DVD for my customers - the EX1 doesn't give me that, I'm afraid.

I owned a Sony Z1 for a while and loved it. Now I see the Z7 will record HDV to tape and SD to Compact Flash . . . SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Now THAT sounds like a good idea!
(Interchangeable lenses too).

Desperate times call for desperate measures. I don't normally edit or create DVDs but I have to send six hours of material out on DVD Monday. After a number of false starts, a couple dreadful attempts and a lot of reading on this thread, a friend suggested simply exporting HD Pro Res timeline>Quicktime movie> HDV self contained. Then I dragged the HDV.mov into idvd. The results are not stunning (like original hd video) but it looks pretty good and the workflow was comparatively quick.

Andy.......... So very briefly, I am as ready as you to be rid of the EX-1 for DVDs..please see the post in this forum, I began, "How to Convert EX-1 to SD for DVD???"....this has had a superb response in suggested solutions. I'm on PC, but exact same problem as you. Again, personal issues will keep me off this board for at least another week. Good luck to us all.

Andy.......... So very briefly, I am as ready as you to be rid of the EX-1 for DVDs..

I'm sorry to hear of your current personal problems but when you are able, check out the Sony Z7 - it's got most of the features of the EX1 (apart from SloMo) but as I said, will record SD and HDV simultaneously.

The more I read about it, the more I like it.

Andy, as You wrote, that You gave others footage to work with, meaning to downconvert, I only could offer You to also send me a short clip of that problematic HD footage and I'll try my best to do a SD-DV-Quicktime with my method.

Maybe I am totally wrong, but I've just downconverted a full hd project and I am fully satisfied with the SD quality. But maybe we are really talking about different expectations.

For your example, that Z1 footage worked well and me having also a Z1 it's no wonder to me, as the Z1 is significant softer overall.
That also explains again that blurring the ex1 footage makes better sd downconversion. And that is still the only thing I do.
Getting HD into aftereffects, vertical blur, downres... voila: finest SD footage. :)

Peter

... check out the Sony Z7 - it's got most of the features of the EX1 (apart from SloMo) but as I said, will record SD and HDV simultaneously.
The more I read about it, the more I like it.

Andy I'm not quite sure this is the best way to go. Check the Z7 forum somewhere round here. I think to remember some posts that there are severe pobs to record SD and HD simultaneously to DV and the CF card. P.

Andy, have you tried using Cinema Craft Encoder MP? I have heard very good reports on it. Rather than using Compressor to do the job, its a compressor plugin but extremely powerful. All the major studios use this compression engine to make their DVDs like Spiderman 3 and Return of the King.

Its not cheap at $799 but the reviews on it say its money well spent. With Compressor you can do two passes, but with Encoder MP you can do up to 99 passes to get the very best dvd.

I have just picked up a legit copy off Ebay (comes with a dongle) for £299.

I'll have it by next week so have a serious play with it. Could well be a solution.

CINEMA CRAFT Encoder SP2 - OMNI-CINEMA CRAFT (http://www.omni-cinemacraft.com/products_cinemacraft_encodermp.shtml)

Andy I'm not quite sure this is the best way to go. Check the Z7 forum somewhere round here. I think to remember some posts that there are severe pobs to record SD and HD simultaneously to DV and the CF card. P.

Thanks for the warning Peter.
I'll certainly check that out.

Andy, have you tried using Cinema Craft Encoder MP?
I'll have it by next week so have a serious play with it. Could well be a solution.
CINEMA CRAFT Encoder SP2 - OMNI-CINEMA CRAFT (http://www.omni-cinemacraft.com/products_cinemacraft_encodermp.shtml)

Never heard of it, Steve but I'll have a look at it (thanks).

You can d/l a demo version of CCE Basic here: Cinema Craft MPEG Encoders - Convert AVI & Quicktime to MPEG1 & MPEG2 for DVD (http://www.visiblelight.com/cinemacraft/)

You can d/l a demo version of CCE Basic here: Cinema Craft MPEG Encoders - Convert AVI & Quicktime to MPEG1 & MPEG2 for DVD (http://www.visiblelight.com/cinemacraft/)

There is no demo version of Encoder MP for the Mac.

There is no demo version of Encoder MP for the Mac.

There are demoes of CCE Basic and CCE SP2. Both Win only (no prob with
an Intel Mac and a Virtual Machine like Parallels and Co) to run them on a Mac, though.

There are demoes of CCE Basic and CCE SP2. Both Win only (no prob with
an Intel Mac and a Virtual Machine like Parallels and Co) to run them on a Mac, though.

Peter, do you have any experience with this plugin? I have purchased it blind through reading quite a few good reviews. Wondering if it is money well spent or a waste!

I have not yet bought the plugin but the demoes are the best and fastest encoders i have worked with so far. Will buy the plugin right after New Year (for fiscal reasons have to wait;-)). Let me know your results.

I was going to buy the plugin for mac a couple of months ago buut the pound plummetted aganst the dollar and where it would have cost me £400 it suddenly went up to £530. Luckily I saw a guy selling it on Ebay and got it for £299. he is selling Scenerist Studio 3.1 and another Mpeg encoder called Spruce DVd maestro ( whatever that is) at the moment.

It should be with me this week and providing it works OK ( the lisence will have to be changed over with Cinema Craft and it probably phones home) I will have basic results later on in the week.

Steve Spruce is the prececessor of DVD Studio Pro, Apple bought (spelling?) it, killed the win version, took the engine and gave it a new more mac-like GUI.
299 for the Mac Plugin can't be a bad investment.

OK the Cinema craft Encoder MP plugn DVD and dongle arrived yesterday morning.

It installed very easily and is fully working. Last night I put 20 minutes worth of footage on the timeline and used the Encoder MP through Compressor 3.

I did a 5 pass VBR encode. I am running Intel dual core 3 MHz with 4 Gb Ram. I found encode times were on a par with Compressors, except I did a 5 pass rather than Compressors maximum of two. Each pass is a bit faster than the previous pass, so its not like 1 hour, 1 hour, 1 hour, 1hour, 1 hour.

Results. Really excellent. And this is using basic settings out of the box. I am sure when I fully understand the PDF instruction file, which is NOT written for the layman, I will get even better results.

IMO it looks better than what compressor can produce. I am gooing to do some more testing in the next few days ( wish I could do it tomorrow but a day out with a visit to Father Christmas for my 4 year old, then friends coming a around on Friday and Saturday)

But Cinema Craft Encoder MP looks extremely promising on initial testing.

No Dominik, I mean Blur - so bad that if I watch for more than a few seconds, my eyes feel strange.
Why don't you post results you get with your methods together with examples which look great on your tv? I guess it will be possible for us to tell you what you have to do, to let your results look like them.

Why don't you post results you get with your methods together with examples which look great on your tv? I guess it will be possible for us to tell you what you have to do, to let your results look like them.

Dominik (and everyone else who has kindly tried to help me with this) I must apologise for not posting back. I thought I had replied to all threads about my EX1 to DVD issue, but I clearly missed this one.
_______________

This is a copy of my "solution" to the problem I was having converting my EX1 footage to SD for use on DVD:
_______________

At last, thanks to Kevan Holdsworth over on the Apple FCP Forum, I read through the XDCAM Transfer Instruction PDF very carefully and there it was all the time!

XDCAM Transfer is the Sony plugin for importing footage - but it also EXPORTS loads of stuff - including either DV PAL / NTSC @ 48k

OR

IMX50 625 (which is Ancient Dutch for Cracking SD) IMX PAL / NTSC @ 50Mb/s
(Choice of other rates available).

My settings are here:
http://www.workingsheepdog.co.uk/video/picture_01.png

This gives you an XML file which you then Import back into FCP using XDCAM Transfer.
EXCELLENT SD footage!

IMX50 625 (which is Ancient Dutch for Cracking SD) IMX PAL / NTSC @ 50Mb/s
(Choice of other rates available).

My settings are here:
http://www.workingsheepdog.co.uk/video/picture_01.png

This gives you an XML file which you then Import back into FCP using XDCAM Transfer.
EXCELLENT SD footage!
I tested it with 1080p footage. The left attachment is the xdcam-export result. The right is the Compressor result.
The details in the result of Compressor looks much smoother.
I really can't understand your preference, Andy.

The details in the result of Compressor looks much smoother.

I don't know what you mean by "smoother" Dominic.

To me there is very little difference in the two images, but I think the Compressor image is very slightly "sharper" and that is what I'm looking for.
(As a professional photographer, I would interpret "smoother" as meaning "softer").

Would you please tell me what your exact Compressor settings are for this please?
Then I will do more tests and post back.

Thank you for your help.

I don't know what you mean by "smoother" Dominic.
With smoother I mean that the edges have less (actually no) aliasing. I actually would call them softer (but not soft, because Compressor approximates the nyquist-limit very closely).
What kind is your footage of? Is it 1080i? Because Compressor has a bug which prevents it from rescaling interlaced footage correctly, if the output is interlaced, too. If you have 1080i and you want 576i as output you have to do the following workaround:
1. Export with Compressors motion-adaptive deinterlacing and high-quality scaling to progressive 576p50 (Apple ProRes-codec recommended).
2. Convert the result with Compressor to interlaced 576i with your dvd-mpeg2-settings.

If your footage isn't 1080i you can do it as simply as I show it in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSw9JfVmIpI&fmt=22
(you have to skip the first seconds because of a youtube-flash-player bug)

If you have 1080i and you want 576i as output you have to do the following workaround.

No all my footage is progressive but if you can give me the full workflow, that will help a lot. Even if there is no difference in quality, it's a lot less hassle to export using compressor - rather than export using XDCAM transfer, then re-ingest as SD, then export again.

sorry, I edited my post after you posted. Read the end of my last post.

If your footage isn't 1080i you can do it as simply as I show it in this video:
YouTube - high-quality HD to SD-DVD conversion with FCP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSw9JfVmIpI&fmt=22)
(you have to skip the first seconds because of a youtube-flash-player bug)

Sorry, I didn't notice this link when I made my last post.
I have watched the video and will try your method but I'm sure I've tried this before.

I'm sure I've tried this before.
If you get different/unsatisfying results, please post them here. Perhaps then I can tell you what's going wrong.

Btw, you can export stills from mpeg2-files very easily with mpeg-streamclip (don't forget to select "unscaled" in streamclips frame-export-dialog).

If you get different/unsatisfying results, please post them here. Perhaps then I can tell you what's going wrong.

Unfortunately, my version of Compressor (3.0.5) does not allow me to change settings in the DVD MPEG2 presets.

I exported with Custom Compressor setting (to MPEG2) selecting "Best" for rescaling (as I always do).

I must admit, under close examination, the Compressor results are slightly better.
So I don't know how I came to the conclusion that the IMX was better!
I will preserve this custom compressor setting carefully

I will do more tests soon but for now, I really must get back to the project.

Once again, Dominik, thank you for your help.

No all my footage is progressive .......
After hearing Dominiks comments about the bug in Compressor not handling 1080i - 576i material well (which I wasn't previously aware of), and after my comments in the other thread, I'd be prepared to make a bet that your problems are down to your material being treated as 1080psf/25, not 1080p/25.

Data wise, the two are identical - the line order is just rearranged. It's quite conceivable that some devices won't distinguish between the two. But although psf material is the same content as p, the reordering means that it must be flagged the same as i - that's the whole reason for it.

Andy,

Glad to hear you now have the results that you were after.

I took delivery of an EX3 yesterday and after having spent several hours trying to render a short test project, I too am not seeing a £6000 advantage in this camera. It works superb in HQ, but like you Andy, I still have to supply my output in bog standard SD format.

I use Premierre Pro CS3 for windows, if anyone has a similar sollution to Andy's, I would appreciate hearing from you.

Many thanks

I'd be prepared to make a bet that your problems are down to your material being treated as 1080psf/25, not 1080p/25.

David, after I read your post on the Z7 page, I checked the item properties in FCP and sure enough it was 1080p - with Field Dominance "None".

BUT.
If I try to export a QT file as almost anything other than XDCAM EX, it goes out as interlaced - even if I specifically select progressive in the export options.

Any comments welcome!