Hi

I've been searching to understand in what situations I would use the following mics - any Senheisser experts who can help? (the Sen site is pretty useless for that):

*416
*418 (M-S version of 416)

*MKH60
*MKH70

*MKH8050

*K6 series

Thanks in anticipation.

This isn't particular to Sennheiser mics - it's more an issue of type of microphone

*416 - is a shotgun microphone with an interference tube of medium/short length, that means it will be used most often as a boom microphone outside, with more side rejection than a short shotgun, but not as much as a long shotgun.

*418 (M-S version of 416) - is same as above, but with addition of a figure-8 microphone element to provide the side signal in a Mid-Side stereo array. This is of particular interest to you in the UK as the BBC requires that M-S microphone techniques be used for most shooting. Some people will tell you that if the Mid element is a shotgun, you really don't have a proper M-S microphone, and it's true, it is not what you'd want to use for M-S for eg. an acoustic guitar trio. The classic M-S array uses a cardiod mic pattern for the Mid element. The place of the 418 is just what the BBC would have you do - boom your work and also provide stereo (sort of). One use of such a mic is also as an on-camera mic, although most location recordists will say that's no place for a mic, and they're right (mostly). However, if you're recording incidental background, aka. ambient, it's fine.

*MKH60 - Similar to 416. A different set of electronics, lower self-noise, a different line of mics. More expensive. Better?

*MKH70 - same electronics as the MKH60, but a longer interference tube, this makes this a classic "shotgun" config, I'd typically call it a long shotgun. More tube means more off-axis rejection, if you look at the polar pattern of this mic on their web site you'll also see that the back of the pattern is a bit more consistent than a typical short shotgun. Goes on a boom, primarly outdoors or on a sound stage.

*MKH8050 - a super-cardoid (less off-axis rejection than a short shotgun, more than a cardoid). I've not used the 8050 myself, but a typical video use would be to boom indoors. For the wider world of audio recording, a super-cardoid has many recording studio and live performance applications.

*K6 series - is a less expensive line of power supply/preamps and modular microphone elements that can mount an omni, a cardoid, super-card, shotgun, etc. I don't like this line much, but they are a popular low to mid cost system. See AKG mics for something competitive.

In summary, it's about the type of microphone - All of these have application in specific circumstances, and the above information is a very brief introduction. You'll find much more by searching by microphone type here on DVInfo, as well as out on the internet.

Seth has done a pretty good job describing the different models but I would add on his description of the MKH 60 and MKH 70. They have a wider pattern than the 416/816 family and while still shotguns they are a bit easier to use with multiple characters in a scene compared to the 416. Originally the MKH 60 and 70 were thought of as the replacement for the 416/816 line (much like new coke old coke) but the changes in both physical style, powering, sound as well as customer demand persuaded Sennheiser to keep both lines going.

Sherif:

I would take a look at these articles, they may help to give you a rudimentary knowledge of location sound and mic selection
Location Sound: The Basics and Beyond (http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/location_sound.html)
As I Hear It - Choosing the Right Microphone (http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/right_mic_brockett.html)
Low Cost Shotgun Microphone Comparison (http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/review_shotgun_mics.html)

Dan

Just a footnote to Seth's very useful post. On paper, the BBC does require recordists to supply and use an M/S microphone: this is stipulated on every call sheet under 'technical requirements'. But people hoping to work for the BBC should not necessarily rush out and buy or hire one, as this is an edict handed down from the stratosphere of BBC management which few of the people who actually make the programmes are bothered about. This goes for the bread and butter programmes, as the high end stuff certainly will like to have stereo atmos tracks: but generally for programmes originated from 'the regions', as the BBC rather condescendingly describes any production centre outside London, a 416 (or similar) and 2 or 3 radiomics will serve you well. Supplying an M/S mic might give you an edge over others after the same work, but it not essential.

Hi

I've been searching to understand in what situations I would use the following mics - any Senheisser experts who can help? (the Sen site is pretty useless for that):
Thanks in anticipation.

Why are you concentrating only on Sennheiser Mics?

Regards,

Ty Ford

Seth et all, that was helpful.

I want to upgrade from the Rode ntg2 I have. Its a good mic but i have good ears, and am an audiophile, so i want the sound to match the image quality. Currently i am really pleased with the image from my Sony V1/Canon Hv30 combo onto DVD, but the sound doesnt quite come up to par for me (actually its the Sony pre-amps which are low budget quality - I used my studio pre-amps and the sound quality shot-up 10 fold)

I read somewhere that the Dr Who episodes use Sennheiser mk60s and 416s and obviously some very talented audio people. Isnt the audio amazing? - not a single glitch, or hiss, or boxyness of sound....I just cant believe it)

I want to improve my audio skills so just want to get an "industry standard" recommendation. I am attracted to the fact that the 418 gives you the option for stereo - so i could use it to record a singer/songqwriter for example?

If I wanted just 1 mic for outdoor AND indoor is the 418 a good compromise? I shoot interviews/corporate indoors and documentary footage outdoors.

The applications you mention, including the singer, are almost always recorded mono. Music, ambience, and some SFX might use stereo.

...I want to improve my audio skills so just want to get an "industry standard" recommendation. I am attracted to the fact that the 418 gives you the option for stereo - so i could use it to record a singer/songqwriter for example?

If I wanted just 1 mic for outdoor AND indoor is the 418 a good compromise? I shoot interviews/corporate indoors and documentary footage outdoors.
Well, I did a doc project a couple years ago with a great sound guy, who had a wonderful shotgun M/S mic, I think it was a B&K, about $5000 US. We rambled all over Turkey, using the shotgun mid-element for booming interviews, and the M/S for quick pickups for recording acoustic music. It was great, mostly. He supplemented with wired lav, wireless lav, and a couple AKG c414 cardoids.

But I'll tell you, if we hadn't been thousands of miles away from home we would have miked the music differently.

An "industry standard" recommendation:
A super cardoid for indoor booming. A medium shotgun is chancy indoors (and that's what the mid element of the 418 is). The standard is Schoeps 641, and pick up a cardoid capsule for it as well.

The short/medium shotgun of your choice. Could be a 416, a 418, an MKH series, a Sanken, etc. This is for booming mostly outdoors.

A couple lavs - could be wired or wireless, depending on what you're shooting.

For the singer songwriter - that one's harder, so much depends on the instruments, the vocal range, the shooting environment... but a medium length shotgun mid plus side such as the 418 is probably not your first choice. More conventional choices would be an X/Y config of cardoids, an ORTF array of cardoids, a cardoid mid M/S, a cardoid visibly in the shot for a guitar, a couple or 3 mics for a piano, a performance vocal condensor... and all that's just some possibilities, because some of the choices depend on what sounds good to you & work for the project, and some choices are going to be determined by the talent, instruments & setting.

...
For the singer songwriter - that one's harder, so much depends on the instruments, the vocal range, the shooting environment... but a medium length shotgun mid plus side such as the 418 is probably not your first choice. More conventional choices would be an X/Y config of cardoids, an ORTF array of cardoids, a cardoid mid M/S, a cardoid visibly in the shot for a guitar, a couple or 3 mics for a piano, a performance vocal condensor... and all that's just some possibilities, because some of the choices depend on what sounds good to you & work for the project, and some choices are going to be determined by the talent, instruments & setting.

You didn't mention one of my favourites, at least for acoustic music - a close mic'ed large diaphram cardioid for the singer's voice and a lav mounted at the base of the fretboard right at the soundhole on the guitar itself for the guitar. Got a DVD of Rodrigo & Gabriela where they've mic'ed their guitars like that with what appears to be Sanken COS-11's and it's an incredible sound.

You didn't mention one of my favourites, at least for acoustic music - a close mic'ed large diaphram cardioid for the singer's voice and a lav mounted at the base of the fretboard right at the soundhole on the guitar itself for the guitar. Got a DVD of Rodrigo & Gabriela where they've mic'ed their guitars like that with what appears to be Sanken COS-11's and it's an incredible sound.
Steve, thanks for mentioning that - no, I've not miked that way for guitar. I do deal with a couple of lute-like instruments (oud & laute) regularly that I might try that on. So far, I've been fairly happy with a Shure SM81LC... but not overjoyed, in part because minor changes in the playing position can change the sound a lot.

Did it look like R&G were lavs stuck on with sticky putty?

As for large diaphram for vocals - yes, but... if it isn't a performance condensor, and the performer isn't wearing cans or otherwise monitoring for popping "p" & so on, it's pretty important to have a large plosive filter. Now we're getting into a pretty large visual impact. Performance vocal condensors, such as Shure SM86, Beta87 & many similar mics have a small/medium diaphram, maybe up to 3/4", but lots of pop filtering right in the mic head, and it's a much lower profile microphone when it's in the shot.

Having said all that, I agree with you on the sound of the large condensor, especially for female voices.

So to summarise:

Indoors interviews boom: a cardiod rather than a shotgun. Schoeps 641 or equivalent Senhessier 8000 series.

Outdoor interviews: medium shotgun like 416 or mkh70. If I get a 418 I can always switch off the Side and just use the mid as a mono, but can switch on the Side if I want more stereo ambience. (418 is Not ideal for a singer/guitar but I could get away with it if I only have one mic on me)

Ideally, get a proper audio soundperson for the job. :-)

If I dont have the budget and just have one mic, and it has to work well outdoors, feels like I'd get the 416 or 418, right?

But since I'm learning anyway feels like I wont regret either a 416 or 418 choice?

Next, a small battery operated pre-amp with nice limiter.

This is fun.

[QUOTE=Sherif Choudhry;926760]Seth et all, that was helpful.

I want to upgrade from the Rode ntg2 I have. Its a good mic but i have good ears, and am an audiophile, so i want the sound to match the image quality. Currently i am really pleased with the image from my Sony V1/Canon Hv30 combo onto DVD, but the sound doesnt quite come up to par for me (actually its the Sony pre-amps which are low budget quality - I used my studio pre-amps and the sound quality shot-up 10 fold)

I read somewhere that the Dr Who episodes use Sennheiser mk60s and 416s and obviously some very talented audio people. Isnt the audio amazing? - not a single glitch, or hiss, or boxyness of sound....I just cant believe it)

>> Having a good kit is important. In their case, having a set built for better acoustics allows the use of a shotgun when in most "normal" cases a hyper should be used.

I want to improve my audio skills so just want to get an "industry standard" recommendation. I am attracted to the fact that the 418 gives you the option for stereo - so i could use it to record a singer/songqwriter for example?

>> Singer songwriter micing (if they are playing a guitar)? You mean on camera or just audio?

If I wanted just 1 mic for outdoor AND indoor is the 418 a good compromise? I shoot interviews/corporate indoors and documentary footage outdoors.

>> Yes it is a compromise. The conventional approach is to have both a shotgun and a hypercardioid. e.g. Schoeps cmc641 and Schoeps CMIT or MKH50 and MKH60.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Ty, would you agree that if you're going to go the one mic route, it's better not to choose a shotgun?

I.e. an MKH-50 or a CMC-641 will probably work better outdoors than an MKH-416 or CMIT will work indoors.

Ty, would you agree that if you're going to go the one mic route, it's better not to choose a shotgun?

I.e. an MKH-50 or a CMC-641 will probably work better outdoors than an MKH-416 or CMIT will work indoors.

Hello Peter,

Absolutely, if you are going to be inside in normal environments with no acoustical treatment or outside in any sort reflective environments.

In some cases where ambient noise is high, a lav will win if you can't get close enough with the boom mic.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Ty, would you agree that if you're going to go the one mic route, it's better not to choose a shotgun?

I.e. an MKH-50 or a CMC-641 will probably work better outdoors than an MKH-416 or CMIT will work indoors.

Aaaah....good thing I caught this one then from Peter and Ty. So if I can have only 1 good quality mic for indoors and outdoors compromise on a Mkh50 or CMC-641.

Ok, i'm going out to rent and try them out.

Dan, very useful indeed. The 2nd one was a really good read and explained lots in a real-world and practical way. Your tests on the mkh50 revealed a very interesting performer. Thanks for the links.

Sherif:

I would take a look at these articles, they may help to give you a rudimentary knowledge of location sound and mic selection
Location Sound: The Basics and Beyond (http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/location_sound.html)
As I Hear It - Choosing the Right Microphone (http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/right_mic_brockett.html)
Low Cost Shotgun Microphone Comparison (http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/review_shotgun_mics.html)

Dan

Why will an MKH-40 work well for booming indoors but an MKH-416 not, when both are Super-cardioid?

Dan, very useful indeed. The 2nd one was a really good read and explained lots in a real-world and practical way. Your tests on the mkh50 revealed a very interesting performer. Thanks for the links.

Hi Sherif:

I am so glad that you found them useful. Good luck in your search for the right mic although in my opinion, we all mostly need to own two or three to get it right.

Dan

Why will an MKH-40 work well for booming indoors but an MKH-416 not, when both are Super-cardioid?
The MKH40 is not a super-cardioid; it's a plain vanilla cardioid. But be that as it may, the inddor outdoor thing is not due to the pattern but rather the exact acoustic principles the mic uses to achieve its pattern directivity. The 416 is an interference tube mic, as are most shotguns, and the problem using it is due to the way the direct sound and the reflected sound interact with each other when you use it in an environment where there are a lot of off-axis reflections such as a normal interior.

The MKH40 is not a super-cardioid; it's a plain vanilla cardioid. But be that as it may, the inddor outdoor thing is not due to the pattern but rather the exact acoustic principles the mic uses to achieve its pattern directivity. The 416 is an interference tube mic, as are most shotguns, and the problem using it is due to the way the direct sound and the reflected sound interact with each other when you use it in an environment where there are a lot of off-axis reflections such as a normal interior.

Hi Steve,

do you know any source to read a bit more about this concept?

Regards,


Andres Montana

Hi Steve,

do you know any source to read a bit more about this concept?

Regards,


Andres MontanaTrying to remember the references- will check my bookshelf when I get home and let you know. In general, the directivity of interference tube mics is concentrated in the mid-range ... the 416 becomes almost omni at low frequencies. Direct sound from the source arrives along the axis of the tube. Reflected sound arrives from off-axis, slightly delayed due to the longer path. The higher frequency components of the reflected wave are rejected but the lower frequencies are still audible as low frequency reverb, changing the character of the recording and giving it a hollow, recorded in a culvert, kind of sound. Couple that with the comb filtering that can result when the incoming direct sound wavefront and the slightly delayed indirect reflected wavefront collide and mix within the tube and you can have marked changes in the timbre of the sound. Hypers are not so frequency dependent in their directionality so even if there is some reverb audible it doesn't change the character of the sound as much.

This is the Sennheiser information on the MKH-416 T. The polar diagram, which bears out what Steve has said about polar pattern varying with frequency, is identical in Phantom powered versions. Anyone wanting to find out more about T powering need only read other parts of this leaflet. NB, the first part is in German, but a few pages later there is an English version.

The MKH40 is not a super-cardioid; it's a plain vanilla cardioid. But be that as it may, the inddor outdoor thing is not due to the pattern but rather the exact acoustic principles the mic uses to achieve its pattern directivity. The 416 is an interference tube mic, as are most shotguns, and the problem using it is due to the way the direct sound and the reflected sound interact with each other when you use it in an environment where there are a lot of off-axis reflections such as a normal interior.

Ah, I understand. A certain large name online store needs to update their description then. They have the MKH40 listed as a super-cardioid.

Ah, I understand. A certain large name online store needs to update their description then. They have the MKH40 listed as a super-cardioid.

LOL - it happens. Here's the details straight from the horse's mouth ... Sennheiser USA - MKH40 - Product Details (http://www.sennheiserusa.com/newsite/productdetail.asp?transid=002645)

Trying to remember the references- will check my bookshelf when I get home and let you know. In general, the directivity of interference tube mics is concentrated in the mid-range ... the 416 becomes almost omni at low frequencies. Direct sound from the source arrives along the axis of the tube. Reflected sound arrives from off-axis, slightly delayed due to the longer path. The higher frequency components of the reflected wave are rejected but the lower frequencies are still audible as low frequency reverb, changing the character of the recording and giving it a hollow, recorded in a culvert, kind of sound. Couple that with the comb filtering that can result when the incoming direct sound wavefront and the slightly delayed indirect reflected wavefront collide and mix within the tube and you can have marked changes in the timbre of the sound. Hypers are not so frequency dependent in their directionality so even if there is some reverb audible it doesn't change the character of the sound as much.


Thanks Steve. I'm still learning the technical aspects about sound and find this fascinating. I would like to help others understand this concept. I think a side by side video showing a shotgun vs a hyper/super cardioid in action would help a lot of people. Can anyone think of a clear way to replicate this concept on purpose? Maybe with a highly reflective surface/room and some kind of boom box that would output certain frequencies? What do you guys think about having a little video/audio demonstration? If you'll help me script it, I can shoot it.

Hi Steve,

do you know any source to read a bit more about this concept?

Regards,
Andres Montana

Even easier Andres,

I explain it on camera and you can hear and see why.
Go to my online archive,
.Mac - iDisk (http://idisk.mac.com/tyreeford-Public?view=web)
Look in the Video folder and download the Ty Ford Mic Tutorial.mp4 file. It's a 28 MB file.
Use the arrow to the right of the file to download.
Regards,

Ty Ford

LOL - it happens. Here's the details straight from the horse's mouth ... Sennheiser USA - MKH40 - Product Details (http://www.sennheiserusa.com/newsite/productdetail.asp?transid=002645)

Well the pattern, itself, is not the issue. The Schoeps lists the cmc641 as a supercardioid. I think they (and Sennheiser) know the differences. The issue, as Steve explained, is the interference tube.

When is an interference tube not an interference tube? The Sanken CS-3e LOOKS like an interference tube mic, and it is....sort of, but unlike traditional interference tube mics, the main capsule is at the tip of the mic and not halfway down the tube or more. Instead there are other capsules below the Sanken CS-3e tip that help it be more directional. As such, the CS-3e does not behave like a traditional interference tube mic with one capsule halfway down the tube.

Ever been inside an interference tube mic? Below is a Sennheiser 416 and Sennheiser NTG-3 out of their skins for everyone to see. The capsule ends up being about halfway down the slotted tube.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Ty, very many thanks for that picture of a 416 separated from its tube. I had vaguely taken in that it was a pressure gradient mic from the literature, but hadn't really devoted much thought to the obvious consequence - that as the diaphragm is exposed to pressure differences existing between both sides of it as the waves pass, therefore the interference tube should be roughly symmetrical on both sides. Never too old to learn.

Well, the real deal is that as directional as interference tube mics are at high frequencies, they are way less directional at mid and low frequencies.

How could they possibly have been used all these years? Historically, there was always someone to yell, "Quiet on the set.", before rolling. That meant there was a set; a space that had been designed (or treated) to reduce sound bounce and that there wasn't much if any other noise around the mic.

Regards,

Ty Ford

So where abouts is the capsule in an mkh60?

Hi

I've been searching to understand in what situations I would use the following mics - any Senheisser experts who can help? (the Sen site is pretty useless for that):

*416
*418 (M-S version of 416)

*MKH60
*MKH70

*MKH8050

*K6 series

Thanks in anticipation.

The 416 is the industry standard gun mic. for outside broadcast and film work - it's a short gun mic.

The 418 is basically the same as the 416, but has an additional fig-8 side mic. added - NB: both capsules have to be powered and it's best to have the side mic. at about -6dB (*not* the same level as the mid).

The 60 is the same pattern as the 416 but is a symmetric capsule mic. and much better (it's also 10 years newer).

The 70 is basically the same as the 60, but is a long gun mic and more directional.

The 8050 is part of the new 8000 series - also symmetrical capsule - this is a super-cardioid mic. It will have about the same polar pattern as the 416 / 60 / 70 at low frequencies but does not get more directional as frequency rises like gun mics do.

These are all RF condenser mics that still work well in damp and rainy conditions.

The K6 is a pre-polarised condenser series and is used by people who can't afford the above - still very good quality, though.

..........

We've been doing a little indoor testing of some of these mics by spinning white noise 360 degrees around the microphone using a jib arm. It's pretty interesting to hear the fall off with the different patterns. The cardioid we tried out is the Sennheiser 8040, the super cardioid is the 8050 and the shotgun is the trusty old MKH-416. The omni is the 8020.

Testing polar patterns video (http://www.dvcreators.net/microphone-polar-patterns/)

Guy, this is a really good, clear and informative demonstration. Thanks very much.

wrong place sorry