HI

I am hiring the Z7 this weekend and want to run a heap of test. What possible tests can you guys recommend i do

What test i will carry out

* shoot SD and then shoot same scene in HD check quality
* Shoot in all the different modes ( progressive,interlaced etc.)
* low light shooting and checking gains
* focusing
* Compact Flash recording
* I will do an intensive test with camera flashes

what else guys

thanks

Robert

Impact resistance is always important.

Do the following:

(1) Set gain to -6db (iris to around f4)
(2) Position camera 2.5 meters from the ground (either stand on chair or climb on table)
(3) Face lens downwards (very important)
(4) Drop camera

Now, you should find that focus has changed a little. Let us know how you get on.

Regards
John

PS: Please post photos/video of the test...

Impact resistance is always important.

Do the following:

(1) Set gain to -6db (iris to around f4)
(2) Position camera 2.5 meters from the ground (either stand on chair or climb on table)
(3) Face lens downwards (very important)
(4) Drop camera

Now, you should find that focus has changed a little. Let us know how you get on.

Regards
John

PS: Please post photos/video of the test...

Drop Camera i will give that a go i guess it's coverd by insurance John

I think I might add a fine detail and backfocus test.

Of course, an extreme temperature and vibration test would also be fun.

John - I did your test with my camera as I hadn't tested this aspect yet and I've got a very important shoot tomorrow. I found that the focus changed quite a lot after testing - definitely more than acceptable. On further checking I found that my gain was actually set to 0db and iris was at f8 - do you think this could have affected the test result? Should I do it again with the correct settings?

0db!!!!!???? No no, this might damage the camera.

Try again at -6db. If you have used 0db, you'll need to perform an enhanced reset. This is easy to do. Just increase the height of the drop calibration to around 8 meters. You'll need to find a 3rd floor apartment or even carpark building complex to perform this.

Also, remember to use the special code if hiring the camera and performing this advanced testing procedure. When asked for your full name, use the code "Douglas Spotted Eagle".

John, Mike,
get serious!

How can you perform the impact resistance test without proper calibration/focussing?
I ALWAYS make sure that there is a focusing test chart taped to the horizontal plane
where the impact will occur. Multiple passes might be necessary to 'hit the mark'.

good luck, please share the results,
John

Not sure if I am following this correctly. "Drop the Camera" is this a term used for some technical aspect or do you mean remove your hands from the camera and watch the camera hit the ground.

As for the horizontal test. You are more than welcome to strap the camera to the front of my wifes car when she goes shopping, that wil be a guaranteed impact test.

Gee guys, I always wondered what they meant by "drop time" in my Merlin manual. Now I know.

You are all joking i hope

Joking? never, my wife can wreck anything

You are all joking i hope

No Robert. We're serious.

Robert, as you read this... you are getting very sleepy. Here these words Robert. Obey these commands.

Hire the camera using the name "Douglas Spotted Eagle".

Drop the camera lens first, from 8 meters, onto concrete.

This is no joke Robert. You WILL do this for us. You cannot resist the urge.

Go now Robert, complete this task, and you will become more powerful than you can imagine.

Switch off the PC. Forget you have visited these forums. <snap>

hmm..I wonder how many Roberts visit this forum..

John (fortunately)

So how did your testing go Robert? Did you find the ON/OFF switch ok? ;)

John i didn't do the drop camera test maybe next time other than that camera is great very sharp picture i put it alongside a canon A1 and sony Z1

Z7 has nice rich pictures BUT i just cant get over the rolling shutter issue because i shoot weddings we had to simulate camera flashes going off from different angles. It is not as noticeable during the day but as soon as we turned off the lights to simulate a reception then it really showed.
I dont know how things are done anywhere else in the world but here we shoot bride and grooms preparations with photographers and you come across photographers that use lots of flash which really bothers me so i don't think this camera will do for what i need.

I guess i will buy a Z1 for now then hopefully something will come out next year.

Rob

What exactly is a rolling shutter effect, I have seen it mentioned several times but never understood what it meant.

Hi Vincent... here is a good article on this:

To CCD or to CMOS, That is the Question | B&H Photo Video Pro Audio (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=getpage&Q=newsLetter/Comparing-Image-Sensors.jsp&O=RootPage.jsp)

Thank you John, I will roll my eyes over this article.

I guess i will buy a Z1 for now then hopefully something will come out next year.

Dude - In reality (and I shoot about 45 weddings per year and around 15 with the Z7 so far) it's not a problem. You even see it on TV as most reality show footage is shot with rolling shutter cams. I've never had a bride ring up and say "Hey, what's with the rolling shutter artifacts knobface!"

I guess i will buy a Z1 for now .....

Hmmmmmmm.... buying a Z1 over a Z7??? Looks like your Mum did her own drop test a few years back huh? ;)

Couples wont even pick it up i know that the problem is me i know it's there. I might have to hire it one more time and actually shoot a wedding or two with it
this is killing me

Hmmmmmmm.... buying a Z1 over a Z7??? Looks like your Mum did her own drop test a few years back huh? ;)[/QUOTE]


thats not nice John

John, the demo explains whta rolling shutter effect is, but it is shonw in slo-mo, does anyone have a real time clip they can upload to demonstrate the effect.

keep going back through the Z7 forum and you will find video clips

OK, thanks Robert.

BTW, you may also want to look at the EX3 camera, this would seem to be a better buy, albeit more expensive.

I think the ex1 and ex3 are awesome cameras but am not ready to go tapeless workflow just yet. I love the feel of a miniDV tape in my pocket

I too like the MiniDV format.

That is untill you have one or two snarl up in the camera, this has happened to me twice this year. I also like the ability to quickly download clips rather than wait for the 1:1 transfer times of tape.

I guess we are all becoming spoilt, no so long ago we would have had to send film of to a lab for processing.

When asked for your full name, use the code "Douglas Spotted Eagle".

I think I just spewed Cream of Wheat out of my nose.

Thank you, John, from the bottom of my heart for a great laugh. Made my day and it's only 9:30am.

This is the best article I've read that explains the CCD vs CMOS // roller-shutter issue, with screenshots and video examples from the Z7U:

CMOS Rolling Shutter (http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/)

What exactly is a rolling shutter effect, I have seen it mentioned several times but never understood what it meant.

I think I just spewed Cream of Wheat out of my nose.

Glad to help! ;)

Hmmmmmmm.... buying a Z1 over a Z7??? Looks like your Mum did her own drop test a few years back huh? ;) thats not nice John

You can handle it Robert - us wedding videographers need thick skins!

I think the ex1 and ex3 are awesome cameras but am not ready to go tapeless workflow just yet. I love the feel of a miniDV tape in my pocket

Agree - and remember the EX series do not shoot SD, and you'll need an editing system that can handle the extra workload of full 1920x1080 footage. PLUS, although promising much cheaper media cards than P2, I was disappointed by the high prices of SxS media.

Robert - I'm shooting a wedding this weekend and the photographer is flash-happy. It's also in quite a dim church, formal photos will be near dusk, and reception is low-lit. I'll make a real point of looking hard at this rolling-shutter issue and post some raw footage for you.

Thanks John cant wait to see the footage

cheers

I was really psyched up to buy a Z7 and was on the verge of placing an order in the next week or two - until I read the article referenced above and actually followed the link to Russ Andersson's page. Russ is the author of Syntheyes (match moving/motion tracking etc) software . I've met him and I think he's a really straight shooter. His take is - say no to CMOS

Russ's helicopter footage with a rolling shutter CMOS camera is at

http://www.ssontech.com/content/skool.mov

It wasn't a Z7 but it's so horrible it's made me put the brakes on re buying a CMOS camera. I don't intend to shoot from a helicopter but I DO want to do match moving.

Can anyone convince me that the Z7/EX1 etc won't be this bad?

that clip looks really bad are you sure it's from a cmos camera

Rob

Jim,

I shoot with our Z7 from a helicopter regularly, high speed low passes etc.
NEVER have I seen anything like this footage..do you really think Sony would or could sell a
6000 dollar camera which would do this? Nonsens. This is manipulated to make a point, or a defective camera.
There is a review and a video from Adam Wilt, telling the exact same thing as my experience;
even if you try to get this jelly effect by violently whipping the camera, it is barely
noticeable. By the time you move the cam so fast, the image is moving so quickly/ is so blurred
that the jelly effect -if any- is not visible anymore (and the footage cannot be tracked anyway.)
Take a look at our webpage
NL jnc film produkties EEE (http://www.jncfilm.com/pages/jnc_film_produkties_eeepag.html)
It's a short promo we made, filmed from a chopper, and motion-tracked.
Any deforming you might see is from the stabilising software..the raw footage is solid,
although shaky from time to time ;-)

Here's the link to his article. He says it was a Canon HV-20.

www.ssontech.com :: View topic - Just Say NO to CMOS Cameras! (http://ssontech.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=478)

He also says that Sony has tried to minimize it by "rolling the shutter faster" or in other words, speeding up the read-out.

If you rent the Z7 again you might try a vibration test of some kind - maybe shooting from a car on a bumpy road at speed or something.

Hope it isn't as bad as the Canon, but I really trust Russ's technical judgement.

EDIT

Found some more info on this

http://rebelsguide.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=340

(Syntheyes also does a neat job of stabilizing a moving camera clip based on solving in 3D instead of 2D, which has the advantage of keeping the vanishing point centered in the frame)

This is the best article I've read that explains the CCD vs CMOS // roller-shutter issue, with screenshots and video examples from the Z7U:

CMOS Rolling Shutter (http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/)


Thank you Scott for posting this link, this now explains it all.

Nice footage John.
Was that all shot with the Z7? How did you stablize the footage? or rather what software did you use?
I cant see any rolling shuter in that.

Simon

thnx Simon,

yes, all was shot with the Z7, heli shots with OIS off,
stabilised with Mercalli software.
proDAD - Mercalli -- Video Stabilizer (http://www.prodad.de/gb/mercalli_std_details.html)


john

Ah Mercalli, great product I use it all the time.
What do you edit on?

Simon

PremierePro CS3 v3.2 with Matrox RT.X2, After Effects CS3

This is not the right thread and I dont what to hijack it but while John is here. What difference does the Matrox RT.X2 make.

Simon

John,

I'm trying to look at the clip you reference, but so far it won't play in either Opera or Firefox or Explorer.

I'll give Safari a shot next!

This is not the right thread and I dont what to hijack it but while John is here. What difference does the Matrox RT.X2 make.

Simon


I also use the same combination. The RT.X2 puts Premierre on steroids, you can add effects, chroma key on multiple tracks and there isn't any sign of the thin red line (render).

The card is not without its own set of problems, you will need a big computer case to accomodate the extra long RT X2 card and make sure that your other hardware is all compatible. Once up and running it is fast.

Suggest you take a look at the Matrox forum for full details.
Matrox RTX2 User Forum :: Index (http://forum.matrox.com/rtx2/index.php)

yep, probably we're hijacking..sorry..

jim, it's a .wmv file, could take some time (20 secs?) before it starts..
works for me in explorer 6 or 7

OK - so far haven't been able to look at it in Firefox, Opera, Explorer, or Safari.

I get the page and a message saying it may take a few seconds to start - and then nothing at all even after 5 minutes.

Could you post a direct link to the wmv file itself if you don't mind?

Actually - If it looks and tracks as well as you say I'd like to ask Russ Andersson to at least take a look at it. What do you think?

Wish I had known all this stuff a couple of weeks back - I talked to him at SIGGRAPH in LA on 8/12 and I would have asked him about it in person.

Hey there chunky,

Try http://www.jncfilm.com/pages/eee.wmv

Hey there chunky,

Try http://www.jncfilm.com/pages/eee.wmv

Was that shot with the Z7 John ?

Was that shot with the Z7 John ?

Apparently so. It's the clip John Bour was referring to (3rd page, 3rd comment) on this thread - from their website.

Here's the link to his article. He says it was a Canon HV-20.

www.ssontech.com :: View topic - Just Say NO to CMOS Cameras! (http://ssontech.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=478)

He also says that Sony has tried to minimize it by "rolling the shutter faster" or in other words, speeding up the read-out.

If you rent the Z7 again you might try a vibration test of some kind - maybe shooting from a car on a bumpy road at speed or something.

Hope it isn't as bad as the Canon, but I really trust Russ's technical judgement.

EDIT

Found some more info on this

Rebel Café :: View topic - HV20 Syntheyes test (http://rebelsguide.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=340)

(Syntheyes also does a neat job of stabilizing a moving camera clip based on solving in 3D instead of 2D, which has the advantage of keeping the vanishing point centered in the frame)

I went through the forum that you posted Jim mate there going on about a camera that retails for just over $1000 come on the Z7 is worth over $7000 where i come from. I ve tested it and never come across what there showing and think about it if you swing any camera from side to side the footage looks crap unless thats how like your footage. That is the most pathetic post i have ever seen.

Rob

Well, as I said in the beginning, I also had a hard time thinking that Sony would mess up quite that badly.

On the other hand, rolling shutters are different than global shutters and if you dial down his admittedly somewhat emotional reaction there may be a germ of truth in his comments about rolling shutter being less than ideal for match moving.

It all probably depends on one's definition of "good enough for the intended purpose" and what degree of precision is needed for any given project.

Guess I'll just have to get one and try it;<)

This "rolling shutter disasters" theme is getting blown way out of proportion. I have shot from a helicopter and did not require any software to correct the video to make it usable. Not just usable, but great. That Helo footage junk in that one clip is certainly not shot from any Sony with a rolling shutter and besides that footage doesn't even look like any rolling shutter effects that I have seen. I have also shot motorcycle road races (talk about fast pans) and NO ONE will notice any rolling shutter effects if they just sit and watch the footage. It is true that I could stop on one frame in the middle of a fast pan and I might see a slanted telephone pole behind a motorcycle. But when I watch that same footage at regular speed and even knowing that the slanted pole is back there somewhere, I still don't notice it. Same for the flash issues. In my experience no CLIENT will ever say "what was that????" It can be seen by a trained eye but it is easy to fix in post if you are really that worried about it. On the other hand, I would guess that the rolling shutter could be an issue if you were in the middle of the paparazzi at night and you were trying to tape Paris Hilton while she is out on the town. If that is what you are doing, you might want to buy something else.