I havent seen any shoutouts or discussions, but I'd love to be proved wrong (!) and offer my humble apologies!

Steadicam say all of Glidecams products are based on expired 20 year old patents? Thats a rather damning statement, but doesnt really clarify the major cost differences vs. benefits is there anyone that has lived with / explored / compared both these venerable systems?

Dom

I would suggest the Steadicam Pilot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2shQVbvVwQ&watch_response
http://dvinfo.net/articles/camsupport/steadicampilot1.php
http://www.macvideo.tv/camera-technology/interviews/index.cfm?articleid=100761
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3PgqKF6ugY
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=115235

I haven't used the Glidecam stuff, but I've heard it's not as precise.

The Steadicam Flyer is nice, but for the extra price I'm not sure it's worth it. The main advantage is that you can fly an HVX200 or EX1 with a lens adapter, but to do that you'll need $4000 worth of wireless follow focus stuff, a really good wireless video system and monitor, plus a dedicated AC person to pull focus. By the time you get there, you might as well go with the Red1 which (with accessories) will put you over the Flyer limit.

So for me it seems to me that the Pilot is the best place to start, and then perhaps the next step is an ActionCam rig for the Red1.

I havent seen any shoutouts or discussions, but I'd love to be proved wrong (!) and offer my humble apologies!

Steadicam say all of Glidecams products are based on expired 20 year old patents? Thats a rather damning statement, but doesnt really clarify the major cost differences vs. benefits is there anyone that has lived with / explored / compared both these venerable systems?

Dom

The statement is true. The relevant patent in question relates to the design of the arm, which was updated in the 90's with the Iso-Elastic concept that has been used by Steadicams since. The idea behind Iso-Elasticity is to give the arm an "invisible" feel and improved isolation where it requires a minimum of force to extend from one end of the range to the other. Every other manufacturer has either built their systems around the previous technology or attempted to find other ways to achieve the improved results. There is actually one manufacturer who did just that, and their arm is considered on a par with the best Steadicam arm available (or better, depending on who you talk to), but as yet this design has not been miniaturized for the smaller rig market.

Apart from the arm, the other essential components of the Steadicam can be legally duplicated and have been, with more or less success. There are specific newer patents that Steadicam holds such as the tilting head but these are non-essential for basic operation.

As far as Glidecam is concerned, while they have put some energy into evolving various of their products, the entry-level rigs have remained pretty firmly in arrested development--the 2000/4000 handheld sleds are not exactly elegant. A direct comparison can be made between the 2000/X10 and the Merlin with vest and arm, as they are roughly the same MSRP; the most critical difference is in the functioning of the arm and I believe that anyone who straps one on after the other would prefer the Merlin arm. It gets a bit more complicated to compare the 4000/X10 and the Pilot as the latter includes a monitor and battery system, and is priced higher as a result, but again the arm is clearly superior and is this instance the sled is far more elegant, easier to adjust and trim and in my mind will produce superior results. In addition, I believe the gimbals on the Steadicam products to be more accurate as I have heard of many Glidecam users having to shim their gimbals to achieve proper linearity.

What about INDICAM pilot compared to the glidecam 2000/4000 ?
I'm on the verge of buying the indicam pilot (sled only for now).
Any opinions would be much appreciated.

Thanks, Paul.

What about INDICAM pilot compared to the glidecam 2000/4000 ?
I'm on the verge of buying the indicam pilot (sled only for now).
Any opinions would be much appreciated.

Thanks, Paul.
Are you looking for something to use hand held or do you plan to get an arm and vest, or, are you going to purchase in stages?

These things can make a difference in what you might want. It's easy to save money in the short run and lose money in a little longer run.

Exactly what camera with what accessories and what kind of shooting (including duration) are you planning to use the sled for?

Yes i plan to get an arm and vest at a later date.
Shoys would probably be short shots for now, weddings mainly, although i also did a music shoot recently, walking in and out of dancers, going all the way round the face/head, (giant sphere arm would've been good for that).

Using an EX1,with Sennhesiser reciever attached, nothing more.

Thanks.
Paul.

EX1 with sennheiser and BP-U60 on indicam sled is about 13-14 lb, handheld I can go for about 30 sec steady.
indicam is better quality and easier to adjust, but it'll be heavier til you get an arm and vest package. It's a bit better with smaller cameras like A1 or Z1, but EX1 handheld on indicam sled is heavy. You wanna try it? I'm in Toronto. :-)

Thanks Buba.
I was after a weight estimate for the sled and EX1.
A local camera operator has the Indicam sled, i'm going to see him tomorrow.
I'll post my opinions on here.

Paul.

...There is actually one manufacturer who did just that, and their arm is considered on a par with the best Steadicam arm available (or better, depending on who you talk to), but as yet this design has not been miniaturized for the smaller rig market...


Ok, CP you got me curious...which company is this?

That's gotta be the Pro arm: http://www.pro-gpi.com/arm.htm - right?

That's gotta be the Pro arm: http://www.pro-gpi.com/arm.htm - right?

That what I thought but wanted to be sure...

Feedback is invaluable. I guess for me the problem is that the small weight jump from the pilot to the Flyer (still no clear if the former can handle an XL H1 with or without a Brevis Adapter and flip) creates a HUGE price jump (in fact a doubling in costs)

Makes the decision very hard as a £2000 ($4000) Glidecam V16 is still far better than not being able to afford a £4000 / $8000 steadicam.

Feelin' kinda stuck :-)

But feedback much appreciated

Thanks

D

Dom,

What camera and what accessories are you planning on flying?

Tery
Indicam

A Flyer-LE will handle an XLH1 Brevis and Flip no problem, they rated to 19 pounds. One thing you may not yet have realised is the need for a Follow Focus system when using 35mm lenses, which will add more cost again, and there is audio to consider too. You don't really want cables dragging off your Steadicam if you can avoid it, so on camera only, or wireless audio to camera, or off camera audio recording. More cost :)
It would be next to impossible to run and gun with a 35mm adapter solo on a steadicam, your depth of field is too shallow. You could do choreographed shots solo with a wired follow focus that has programmable positions, so you just tap the button for the sequence. A wireless setup, with a dedicated operator is by far better. There are some cheaper units being designed for release soonish, but they are still around $1200US at least. Professional units available now run from $5000US upward.
As you can see, the cost bump going from a Pilot with a DV camera on it, to a Flyer with a 35mm setup will be a large cost jump! It might be worthwhile looking for a second hand original Flyer, rated at 15 pounds. There are always a few about, they are solidly built and have years of service left in them. You could probably get one for close to the new cost of a Pilot. It should be able to fit all the gear you want to use in the future.
You might find this article about the original Flyer useful.

http://www.steadi-onfilms.com.au/steadicam_flyer.html

Youre absolutely right David and whilst I have a Senheiser Evolution Radio MIC the thought of making a follow focus preprogrammed is off my knowledge scale in terms of kit and costs, did you say there was a "cheap" wireless Follow Focus available? How about just "a very long focus whip" - say 2-3 feet? (or is that getting a bit silly!?!

When all is said a done there is clearly a big market opportunity to fill the massive cost gap between the SteadiCam Pilot and he Flyer LE

<sighs>

Programming an FF is pretty simple usually. You just focus, hit a button to memorise, focus again, hit button to memorise, and so on. Then it's just a matter of hitting another button to step through the sequence. Some systems might only have one step, others can remember speeds, and even ramp speeds up and down through multiple steps. In the end though you can't beat a dedicated operator.
A whip is not really practical on a steadicam. The point at which it attaches to the camera is a long way from the centre of gravity, which should be near your gimbal, so even the lightest touch will set the camera moving. Every time you try to move the camera it would also pivot on the whip holders arm, it would be a nightmare for anything but static shots, and you may as well be on a tripod.
With a 35mm adapter using a wide angle lens with a lot of light so you can stop down some, you can get enough depth to forego a follow focus on controlled shots. Sort of defeats the purpose of using 35mm though, and limits your range of shots considerably.
There are quite a few wireless systems either just out or coming soon, Redrock, Cinevate and Viewfactor all have them coming, and Foveas has one out now. The Foveas looks solid, but simple, Viewfactor is the one I have on my list. Not much info on the other two yet.

... As you can see, the cost bump going from a Pilot with a DV camera on it, to a Flyer with a 35mm setup will be a large cost jump!
Right. Not only large in terms of cost, but large in terms of complexity as well. You will need another person to pull focus, and the cheaper wireless follow focus systems aren't really good enough to use with a shallow DOF.

Here's the way I look at it:

Option #1: use the $6500 EX1 or $5200 HVX with a $2500 lens adapter, $4000 wireless follow focus, $8000 Flyer LE, $1500 matte box, and thousands more for 35mm primes lenses. Also, depending on who you can get to pull focus, you may need an expensive wireless HD video system and 17" reference monitor.

Option #2: use the $6500 EX1 or $5200 HVX with a $3800 Pilot-AA, and leave the lens adapter off for Steadicam shots.

Option #3: Use the Red1 with either the ActionCam rig or a future (TBA) Steadicam rig that handles the Red1 plus a reasonable amount of accessories (25-30 pounds). Note that this has all of the focus issues with Option #1.

My approach: Use Option #2 for now and save up for Option #3.

Unfortunately I have a Canon XL H1 and I dont want to ditch a £5000 camera to use a particular steadicam!! (Well at least I couldnt afford that) :-)

What about INDICAM pilot compared to the glidecam 2000/4000 ?
I'm on the verge of buying the indicam pilot (sled only for now).
Any opinions would be much appreciated.

Thanks, Paul.

I've used the Steadicam Pilot, Steadicam Flyer, Varizoom Aviator, Proaim 7000, Glidecam x10, and the Indicam systems. All of them had the dual articulated arms and vest.

I now happily own the Indicam. This thing isn't as nice as the Steadicam brand products, but it kicks the he** out of the rest of these products. I simply couldn't afford a Pilot so I went Indicam. It hold twice the weight than that of the Pilot too. Terry doesn't advertise nor market Indicam like Glidecam or Varizoom do their products, but I rarely give a damn about labels and get the best product around.

In terms of rank, 1-10 (1=best, 10=worst):

1. Steadicam Flyer
2. Steadicam Pilot
3. Indicam
4.
5. Varizoom Aviator
6.
7. Proaim 7000
8.
9. Glidecam
10.

I know I'll get some flack for putting Glidecam so low, but I had nothing but problems with these...and they just never seem to fly the cameras good enough, no matter what you do. The Proaim from India was the cheapest quality parts out of all of them...but it did suprisingly well and can hold a friggin tank of a camera (up to 22 pounds or something like that). The Aviator just about got the right idea but something about the gimbal and the thin post made for vibrating steps.

Just my opinion...but the simplicity in the design and the amazing gimbal of the Indicam made just the right formula for an affordable and professional rig.

Other people might have had awesome experiences with the Glidecam...but I was very disappointed with it, expecially for the cost.

He he, i just read this thread and realised i'd posted on it quite a long time ago, well after that long ago post i got myself a Glidecam 4000 with arm and vest.
I used it for a few months and enjoyed using it, however i soon realised how massively important an adjustable socket block would be, then i looked at the Pilot and realised that it had an adjustable socket block. Then i started reading more about "proper" rigs, and realised there's a lot more to these devices than i first thought, (isn't learning great), so i sold my Glidecam and bought a Pilot.
The difference is huge, they may look the same to the untrained eye, (my eye all that time ago), but the Glidecam isn't even in the same league as the Pilot.

Paul.

Couldn't have said it better myself Paul (except that I have, probably 2 dozen times!)

Glidecam is an established brand, have been around a long time and for some people the stocky beefiness of their handheld rigs is a plus (the unicycling operator comes to mind). But operating a stabilizer is a game of finesse, and the Pilot is far more refined and capable when it comes to finesse.

The Pilot is definitely a really nice rig. But I really do think that Glidecam has come on leaps and bounds, even in the last year.

The new version of the X-22 arm doesn't suffer from any of the springiness of the 1st version, so it is now possible to run with the rig and the arm will not flap up and down, or continue to bounce after stopping. The smoothness is still there too.

I am going to modify my 22 for connectivity reasons, but I would have those same issues had I bought the Flyer. The difference though is that I have since found out that the X-22 arm can in fact cope with nearly 38lbs, and that the rig capacity is that 38lbs minus the basic sled weight. I found that my sled weighed 12lbs with a single Dionic 90, the monitor and a VCT14 plate. That leaves me around 26lbs of capacity solely for camera equipment, and it is all within the spec of the system.

So even with my mods I will have spent less than a Flyer, have better connectivity, and can put a Red One system on it with a few accessories without worrying if I am stressing the rig.

My actual operating skill on the other hand is a completely separate issue! ;-)

I hadn't heard that the X22 arm had been revised. I'll check it out at NAB. I do feel, however, that the gimbals on the smaller GC's have always left a lot to be desired.

Hi Folks,

This is why I love this forum!

I am nowhere near purchasing a steadicam rig, but thanks to Simon's review of the X-22, and Charles's knowledgeable expertise, my dream may someday become a reality (but will still need to save up :)

@Charles--I thought I read somewhere on here about your opinion on the Indicam? How does it rate versus the Pilot, Glidecam, et al?

@Simon--Nice review of the X-22! You compared it to learning martial arts, which in most cases requires finesse and technique (and years of practice!). Great comparison :)

Best,