I shot a dance concert with a Sony EX1 and the footage looks great. I rendered it out to NTSC DV Widescreen in Vegas 8, and after editing, output again to DV widescreen, then authored it in Encore. It plays perfectly in my player at home and looks great.

So I give a sample disc to the client, who then calls me this morning having a mini panic attack, saying that the DVD is "stretched and bloated" and that the "audience is in focus but the dancers are all blurry" and that "the audience takes up half the screen." I haven't seen it yet, but based on that description, it sounds like an aspect ratio issue.

In the past, I've always shot with SD cameras, so this is the first time I've down-converted 1080p30 to an NTSC DVD. This is also the first time I've ever used NTSC DV Widescreen. I was about to set the Vegas project to standard DV and just have the bars burned in to the frame, but I thought it might compress better if I used the widescreen/aspect ratio setting.

So, all this leads me to these questions:

1) Could it be that the other two players where the client saw the distortions/quality issues are reading the aspect info incorrectly?
2) I may have mixed 4:3 menus with 16:9 video; could that be an issue as well?
3) Though the 'blurry dancers, in focus audience' is not something I witnessed in my DVD playback tests at home, could there be something to my going HD > widescreen DV > editing > Encore transcoded mpeg2? Again, my playback looked just fine, and the original HD footage looks great as well (see http://vimeo.com/1222248 for a 720p sample).

All of this has me a bit rattled (I pre-sold about $10k worth of DVDs of this show!). Any help/comments would be very appreciated!

Hi David,

I'm just finishing up a music/dance festival where I shot all the daytime solo judged performances using 1080/30p with my Canon XH A1 and all the night time show at 1080/24p.

I use Vegas 8 to edit using either the 60i hdv timeline then change the order to progressive for the 30p footage. I haven't had any problems so far with playback. I don't think there is a 30p DVD standard so part of the problem might be the DVD players your client used don't know what to do with the signal. If they change the aspect ratio it may take care of the problem. For my 24p footage I just use the standard hdv 24p widescreen timeline and edit on that.

I use DVDA for my DVD authoring so when I render I use a modified DVD Architect template. It is basically an NTSC DV template that I change the Quality to "Best", Field order to "None (Progressive)", and tweak the bitrate to get the highest I can and fit it on a disc. So far I haven't had any problems with people playing them on their set-top boxes.

I don't usually mix 4:3 menus with the widescreen main feature but I have had a mix of widescreen main with 4:3 extras in the past and again I haven't had any problems. Now I figure most people will be viewing them on an LCD or plasma anyway so they'll have widescreen tv's.

On a different know how did you presell $10k work of videos? Can I ask what your price for the videos are? I'm happy to get 50 copies presold and then I hope to double up that amount once they go into circulation.

The dance studio is pretty big, almost 600 students. it's one of the best studios in town and is not terribly cheap, therefore the clients tend to be, say, upper middle class. It was about the same last year, and people seemed to like the DVDs, so I'm back again! The total number of dvds sold as of this moment is 352. I charge $40 for a full show (there were four shows at different time slots), and I also offer a 'custom disc' option, where they can pick any combination of dance numbers from any show and get them on one disc. For that, I charge $15 per dance number.

Regarding my DVD results, I've been reading tons and tons of threads about converting 1920x1080 from the EX1 down to SD. So much info, so many mixed results!! I'm doing some experimenting right now, actually...thanks for your input.

Did you happen to check out the link? What do you think, is the footage ok, and should it result in a great looking DVD?

"audience takes up half the screen"

It really sounds like the client's DVD players or display devices aren't properly configured. LCD TVs usually have an option to zoom into a video, sometimes referred to as a pan & scan mode. Most likely the client is not aware of this setting.

The vimeo video looks correct, but you can simulate a similar effect if you view it full screen and then turn the SCALING OFF. On my 4:3 computer monitor, it will zoom into the middle of the video and the dancers will start to look pixelated and blurry.

The only other reason the dancers might be blurry is if they are projecting an NTSC DVD onto an extremely large screen. Then everything tends to get blurry anyway.


2) I may have mixed 4:3 menus with 16:9 video; could that be an issue as well? I've done this many times in DVDA without even thinking about it, and it has never been an issue. You may need to check Encore's settings though to be sure.

try rendering in vegas sony avc ntsc template, use 10 mb instead of 15, cause players only use up to 8-10, then into dvda, looks better than mpeg2, be glad to go over details if you like

Sure, I'd be happy to try whatever process out there is working. So you're saying you output using AVC, then use those files to burn DVDs? They have to be recompressed using mpeg2, though, if you're going to SD DVD. Doesn't the quality suffer going through two rounds of compression?

David,

The footage looks fine to me on Vimeo. I really think the client is using the wrong setting to veiw the DVD. With the footage I saw you should be able to get a really good looking DVD.

I usually render directly into MPEG2 from Vegas. I do convert all footage from my cams to Cineform first then, edit, render, author dvd, burn discs. I have edited the m2t files directly without any problems also. With the EX1 you should be able to get some great results.

I'd be really interested in knowing if you get better quality using the AVC reder route.

Garrett, I agree that the client's DVD settings are wrong, but she's tried it on two different TVs now and go the same results. What makes matters worse is that last year's DVD was shot on a DSR400 and so there was no letterboxing, it was just a straight up DVD. She said "last year's discs played and looked fine wherever I played them". So that part has got me concerned. Widescreen DVDs are all over the place, so I don't understand why this one was an issue! Could there be an issue with widescreen @ 29.97 instead of 24p?

Anyway, I'm meeting with her in an hour to see what she's seeing. I'll bring a couple of test clips on a DVD rendered with different settings and see how they compare to the sample disc I gave her.

David,

I just got done with a widescreen 29.97 progressive DVD. No problems on several different players. Do you know if both of the DVD players that she tried them on were the same? If so that may be the problem. Did you try the disc on any of your DVD players? If not maybe ask her for it to see if it plays ok on something you're familiar with.

What program did you use to author the DVD? Maybe that is introducing a setting or switch on the DVD that's playing with the set-top box. I've had some really weird issues when people use older dvd players. The thing that sounds really weird is the fact that the audience is in focus but the dancers aren't. From the Vimeo sample the dancers look fine.

I'm using Encore. I could give DVD Arch a try, I see lots of people using it. Maybe it's best to keep it in the Sony family :)

In my case, having shot full 1080p30 on the EX1, what should my Vegas project settings be, and what should my export settings be? This project's destination will only ever be NTSC DVD.

My test disc was played on a player that is a good 7 years old, and everything looked fine. The CRT it was plugged into is only 25", so I suppose I could have missed some artifacts or something, but it looked great to me. We'll see what the client says when I see her in 30 minutes...

I'm away from my editing machine right now but tonight when I get home I'll look up all the setting I usually use from Vegas Render to DVDA setup and DVD build.

Good luck with your meeting.

... In my case, having shot full 1080p30 on the EX1, what should my Vegas project settings be, and what should my export settings be? This project's destination will only ever be NTSC DVD.Two ways to set project settings:
1. Same as your footage - e.g. HD 1080-60i (1920x1080, 29.970 fps)
2. Same as your destination - e.g. NTSC DV Widescreen (720x480, 29.970 fps)

I've found either way works fine. Can't prove it, but if you're headed for DVD anyway, I feel there's a performance advantage to working on timeline with a lower resolution like NTSC DV Widescreen (720x480, 29.970 fps). Otherwise Vegas handles both ways quite well.



For export to DVDA, Render As:

VIDEO
- MainConcept MPEG-2
- DVD Architect NTSC Widescreen video stream

AUDIO
- Dolby Digital AC-3: Pro or Studio
- Default template or Stereo DVD

* If you're using DVD Architect, your footage will have only gone through one generation when the DVD is prepared. I've never used Encore so I have no idea which MPEG-2 settings are the best, though I assume you would use almost the same settings. Might have to use the generic DVD video stream option when exporting for Encore.

its pretty simple, what ever you are working on, take maybe 30 secs and start rendering in many different templates, take them all and make one test dvd out of them, label them so you know what you did, you will quickly find out what works for you. I have tried them all, yes mpeg2 ntsc for dvda works very well, I happen to like using sony avc ntsc, at 10 mbps,I am viewing on 720p hd tv, and my stuff is shot with sony v1, no one is more critical than I am, everyone thinks I am too critical, thats why I am always looking for something a little better, short of burning blu ray, thats next. I bet I have trashed 200 dvd's testing what might look better.

Here's my workflow for ending up with a 29.97p dvd:

1. Download footage through Cineform NDLink

2. Convert to Cineform Inermediate using High quality setting (I'm using HDV so I end up with 1440 x 1080 avi)

3. Pull into Sony Vegas 8 using Custom Properties
1440 x 1080, 29.97 fps
Field Order: None (Progressive)
Pixel Aspect Ratio: 1.33333
frame Rate: 29.97 (NTSC)

4. Do final edits color correction etc. then render out to MPEG2:
Video Rendering Quality: Best (important to use best since your resizing video)
Output Type: DVD
Width: 720
Height: 480
Frame Rate: 29.970
Aspect Ratio: 16:9 Display
Usually no change to I or B frames (I have done this on rare occasions but you run the risk of ending up with a DVD that can't be read by all machines)
Field Order: None (Progressive Scan)
I usually try to go with Constant Bit Rate of 8M bps but if I have to I use Variable two pass
On Advanced Video Tab: Video Format: NTSC and DC Coefficient: 10 bit all other settings to default

5. I usually render the audio separately into an AC-3 format compatable with DVD spec.

6. Pull rendered video and audio into DVDA Pro 5.0 (yeah, just made the upgrade, Blu-ray on demand) Project Properties for DVDA
Disc Format: DVD
Video Format: MPEG-2
Bit Rate: 8.000 Mbps
Aspect Ratio: 16:9
Resolution: 720x 480 (NTSC)
Frame Rate: 29.97
Progressive: won't be selectable but since I make sure my MPEG-2 is DVD compliant DVDA does not rerender so it stays progressive.

7. I usually build the DVD files into a folder on my machine then use ImageBurn to either make the image and if I'm using DL discs I use ImageBurn to determine the Layer Break Point. That way I can put the layer break at a point where it isn't noticeable. Then I jsut burn discs with ImageBurn.

The last DVD I did had no problems and I always create Progressive videos regardless of whether the frame rate is 23.976 or 29.970. Haven't had any problems with discs so far. (knock on wood).

Since you're using the EX1 your frame size of the Vegas Project should be 1920x1080. and the pixel aspect ratio would be 1.00

I dont' think there is any problem mixing widescreen video with 4:3 menus. One thing I did notice in DVDA is that all the menus need to have the same aspect ratio, i.e. only 16:9 or 4:3 menus. No mixing menu sizes. I don't know if Encore has the same limitations.

Hope this gives some clue as to the solution to your situation.

That is very helpful, thank you! After talking with the client and examining the footage more closely, I think I know why she's complaining on some counts, and not so much on others. Her complaints are:

1) ""the audience takes up half the screen"" I think this results from the EX1's incredible dynamic range. On other videos of her concerts shot with other cameras, the audience falls right into blackness, no detail at all. On the EX1, the audience is quite visible even with the little bit of light that is falling on them. Because they're more noticeable, they're 'taking up half the screen', even though there is the same amount of 'audience' in the other videos, they're just showing up as blackness.
Possible Solution: I could do some curve adjusting to crush the blacks a bit more to try to drop the audience down a bit more, or apply a grad filter that I'll have to move throughout to track the audience as the camera zooms in and out.

2) ""every one looks fat"" This I think is just plain not true. From her description, she did at one time play it on a widescreen TV that sounded like it was set to stretch a 4:3 DVD, but on the TV I watched it on with her, there was no horz distortion. I think it's just psychological, but I'll carefully monitor my settings to be sure that there's no pixel aspect ratio mistakes.

3) ""the audience seems more in focus than the dancers"" At first, I didn't see it, but once I got home and looked at the DVD on my 55" Bravia, I could see what she was talking about. I wondered if I was experiencing the back focus issue that many EX1 users have had to deal with, but upon looking at the original HD footage, there are no focus problems. The DVD seemed to be suffering from compression blockiness, which helped explain her perception of blurry dancers and sharper audience. The audience (barely moving and very visible and detailed thanks to the EX1) compressed very well, while the dancers (moving tons) didn't compress very well, making them 'blurry'. In other videos, the audience is just blackness, which wouldn't use up much data at all in the mpeg2 compresssion, leaving plenty of data for the dancers.
Possible Solutions: I need to determine if it is the resizing to SD that is causing issues, or if it's the compressor I'm using. I've used several in the past, and in this case, I let Encore do the compressing. I also have CCE and the codecs available in Vegas 8, so I'll try some of those. Getting the resizing to work seems like a big hurdle; lots of users are reporting issues with getting a good HD to SD resizing workflow. In order to work this out, I'm going to focus on getting an amazing resized clip first. Thereafter, I'll work on mpeg2 compression results.

4) "the stage seems vast & expansive, bigger than it really is, and the dancers seem to be far away, back in a hole somewhere"" I believe that the EX1 uses the same lens that a lot of pro cameras use, a 14x Fujinon. I can only explain this one by chalking it up to a perception thing again. Maybe the widescreen is making it seems like the stage is streched? I dunno...

Would anyone be at all interested in taking 30 seconds of my original 1080 footage and turning it into an m2v file using your best process? I would love to see the results and compare them to what I'm getting. I can export from Vegas using the 1080 25meg blu ray profile and post a link to the file (or whatever format everyone thinks would be appropriate for this test). I can even provide an ftp login for you to upload your result. Any takers?

Garrett, the only missing link for me in your workflow is the Cineform intermediate codec. I don't think I can afford it, unless they have a fully functioning trial (:

HI David,

Cineform does have a fully functioning trial version (15 days), just enough time to compete one project. Go to their website and download it. It's worth giving it a try. I swear by them now. And they have great customer service.

Also, I don't I'd be willing to run some of your footage through my normal process. I may not be able get to it right away but I would be interested to see if I'm getting the same results as you.

If you've got an ftp set up let me know the link and I'll download the file and play with it.

Garrett

[EDITED FOR CLARITY]

David,

I think I get it now. The shots are too wide and include too much "other stuff" that's not important to her customers. I believe your client is telling you in lay terms - that she was expecting full body and medium shots of the dancers so that the parents of the event could clearly see their daughters and loved ones. (see the next post for examples from your video) The customers of the event are probably typical parents who are only interested in seeing their little darlings up close, shining in the lime light. Anything outside of that and they're not interested. I know if my daughter was in this event, that's what I would be expecting. Thankfully you used HD so you could try cropping the video, but you've lost a lot of that resolution because the dancers are so far back in the frame.

Next time a better setup might be two cameras:
Camera 1 - static / set to a shot of center stage, the bottom of the frame on the stage, the top of the frame 2-4 feet about the dancers heads
Camera 2. hand operated / for getting medium & close up shots, plus any dancers outside of the other camera's view

Of course that complicates the whole process, but I think you'll be giving your customers something they will value more.

From the video you shot, here's screen captures of what I think she's looking & not looking for.

Hey David,

One of the beauties of shooting HD for SD DVD, you don't loose very much when you post edit zoom and pan. I can almost corp down to 720x480 without any noticeable loss. It will take some extra time during your editing but it may be worth it to show your client that you understand her concerns and have a way to address them. She'll probably appreciate the extra effort and you'll be set for the next show they do.

Garrett

Michael, I agree that it would be great to have the shots that close all the time, but this is a single camera gig, and in order for all the parents to be happy about buying a video of their kid's dance, they have to be in there, which means zooming to fit the group in the frame. It was actually the client's idea; I did her video last year using a single DSR400, and she was very happy, and I didn't get any negative comments from the parents. I agree that a second camera would be nice, but any time I'm close on the second camera, someone's kid is left out. That is the reason that she prefers one camera; no kid left behind :)

In the end, I'm as close as I can be at all times (given safe area, of course). This is the first time I've had to make this conversion, as well as it being the first time she's had a widescreen DVD of her concert made.

Garrett, I really like the idea of cropping and zooming, but that will still leave me with wide shots (which I had to get based on the description I gave above). I guess in those situations I'm stuck with full frame down-size.

Here is a link to 30 seconds of footage: http://davidwilliamson.net/video/MainConcept_BluRay_template_1080p30.zip
I rendered it out of Vegas using the Main Concept Bluray 1080 profile. I just changed the field order to none to keep it progressive. I would love to see anyone's re-size and mpeg2 results on this, including your process. I'm on a PC with Vegas 8, Encore, and Cinema Craft at my disposal, just so you know. If you don't have a place online to host your .m2v file, you can upload it to: ftp://ftp.davidwilliamson.net. User: dwguest, pass: hdvideo. My sample footage can also be downloaded there as well.

You guys have been great during this thread, thank you!

Ok, here are two of my results, one with CCE and one with Hcenc:
http://davidwilliamson.net/video/cce.zip
http://davidwilliamson.net/video/hcenc.zip

For both of these, here's my workflow:

1. frame serve out of Vegas 8 (project settings at 1920x1080 29.97 progressive) with DebugMode frameserver to...
2. VirtualDub where I applied the 'resize' filter, choose the 'Lancsoz3' filter mode, frame size of 720X405, do not letterbox or crop selected, then frame served that to...
3. hcenc / CCE

If anyone wants more details on the steps & settings, I'll be happy to supply screenshots and be specific. This method is adapted from reading this post: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=116587

I'm anxious to see what anyone else comes up with. The hcenc looks the best as far as facial detail, but the backgrounds are a bit blocky. CCE does a better job with the overall frame. I'm going to do some more experiements, of course, until I find the best possible combo. The uncompressed resize to SD looks amazing, if only I could use that... :)

Here is another attempt, seems like the best one so far:
http://davidwilliamson.net/video/MainConcept_from_uncompressed.zip

For this one, I frameserved to VirtualDub to resize as before, and used Vdub to save an uncompressed avi (775 MB for 30 seconds!). I brought the uncompressed avi back into Vegas and rendered as MainConcept NTSC widescreen. The above link is to the result.

Seems like I ought to be able to get better results than I'm getting on the mpeg2 step; the resized uncompressed avi looks spectacular, but the resulting mpeg2 compression isn't so hot. The sharpness and general quality suffers alot. I think, however, that I can officially say that I'm past any resizing issues. The frameserve to Vdub for resizing method produces a pristine & gorgeous 720 x 405 picture. I've just got to get some decent mpeg2 compression.

Maybe it's my settings in the compressor? There are so many to configure, especially in CCE/Hcenc. Another thought that comes to mind is the data rate. Right now, it can be whatever since I'm only compressing 30 seconds. But, once I'm trying to squeeze a two hour show on to a single layer disc, I may have to give up some of that data. If I'm only getting mediocre results now with 30 seconds, I'm not looking forward to two + hours.

Hugh, I'm interested in your AVC comment. So you're saying that i render to AVC, then drop those into DVDA? Won't DVDA recompress it to mpeg2 in the end anyway?

On another note, just so ya'lls can see, here is a frame grabs from the uncompressed resize.