I've been doing some experimenting with leaving the detail part of my picture profiles turned off, I understand that adding sharpening at the end of the effects chain is better but the side effect of not using the detail setting seems to be that the peaking function rarely helps. This seems especially true when trying to focus on faces, with detail off I'm really struggling due to the lack of peaking and less obvious correct focus due to softer images.

Do you guys shoot with detail on or off?

Paul.

Always off.

Detail can make some skin look really bad. Experimentation might give you a better idea but I turn it off.

Same with sharpening. Off. I do a lot of green screen work and sharpening creates its own set of problems.

Picture quality of EX1 becomes much worse when Detail is set to on.
It completely looses its organic look and looks almost like cheap video if detail is set ON.

So always keep Detail set OFF if you don't like that videoish look.
It doesn't help with sharpness either, it only adds some bad looking contour and even washing-out effects when cripening is on... very ugly.


Dennis

I don't think there's any consensus about the detail settings except don't go above "0".
Some people turn them off, some just set lower than "0" and I've had perfectly good results at "0" as well. If you turn it too low though it gets softer than " off" and that's not good.

For those setting to "off" - what kind of monitor are you using?

Lenny Levy

I don't think there's any consensus about the detail settings except don't go above "0".
Some people turn them off, some just set lower than "0" and I've had perfectly good results at "0" as well. If you turn it too low though it gets softer than " off" and that's not good.

For those setting to "off" - what kind of monitor are you using?

Lenny Levy

I'm using a 26" NEC (2690 WuXI) and a 40" Sony V3000.
With Detail=On (Level=0) the picture doesn't contain any more Detail, there are only more artifacts, very harsh double contours and stronger contrast...


Dennis

Picture quality of EX1 becomes much worse when Detail is set to on.
It completely looses its organic look and looks almost like cheap video if detail is set ON.


I'm not sure I'd go that far, I've had detail turned on so far (set to 0) and it does do a good job of making the images look more detailed, I wouldn't say my footage to date looks like cheap video, although I can understand that too much sharpening would have that effect.

I agree with Leonard, there is no concensus. The "always off" advocates are not the ones to be commenting about detail because it's "always off" for them, and probably has been since the first day. Expect the inevitable denials, that their scientific tests have conclusively proved that by using detail on you will tear holes in the universe, or that their post compression NLE unsharp mask workflow is better. Nonsense.

Sony provides you with 8 adjustable detail parameters, giving you literally millions of control possibilities. They would not waste your time on them if they couldn't provide professional quality creative control. And they do. It's in-cam, pre-compression, fully adjustable and highly effective.

I use different profiles for 60i than I do for 24p, because 60i uses dual row summation of the fields. The sharpening effect needs to be tailored accordingly.

And Paul, as for the peaking function not being effective with detail off, have you tried changing the peaking level, to mid or high?

Initially, I left DETAIL to "ON" with the LEVEL set to "0". I began to notice a lot of horizontal "twitter"/"flicker" in my SD downconverts from the EX1. I have, since, turned DETAIL to "OFF" and, while not totally eliminated, SD downconverts are much, much better.

When I use my Letus Extreme on the EX1, I have detail ON for many of the profiles I use. Always OFF without the Letus though.

Scott K.

I haven't been shooting much with the EX series yet but the detail question is definitely a question with most cameras. Just because the number is set to 0 doesn't mean there is no detail being added when it is on. This is just the manufacturers normal setting which is often not the best for many situations. The best way to determine which settings you like is to play with the setting while looking at a great display and then check on a lower quality display as well. Often there is a setting I find I like which is less than the manufacturers normal but more than completely off on most cameras. The reason to turn it completely off can be related to your output like if you are going to go to film as opposed to DVD only. Or the specs from the network you are shooting for guide you.

So if 0 is the default and you can set detail so that it is softer than OFF. What setting equals OFF?

So if 0 is the default and you can set detail so that it is softer than OFF. What setting equals OFF?

Level=-30 up to -40 seems to be "OFF".


Dennis

I normally run between -10 and -15. I choose this level as even on large monitors the edge enhancement is just about invisible while there is still enough that the images still have some "punch". As much of what I shoot gets sold as stock footage I am looking for a balance between the punchy "wow" factor and the more natural un enhanced look. If I was producing for film transfer I would probably run with it off. For an HD corporate I might have it at 0 for more punch.

Yes I also see a reduction in Peaking which is not surprising as the peaking signal is derived from areas of high contrast and detail correction creates localized areas of high contrast in high frequency parts of the picture.

Also, it's important to remember that DETAIL setting is not just about edge enhancement; setting it to ON (not to mention cranking it up into positive territories) may "enhance" noise considerably. Therefore, if one is after punchy edges, it's good to counterbalance by masking the noise with the CRISP parameter turned up from the default value of 0.

Therefore, if one is after punchy edges, it's good to counterbalance by masking the noise with the CRISP parameter turned up from the default value of 0.

And the knee aperture turned DOWN.

And the knee aperture turned DOWN.

What does knee aperture do?

KNEE APERTURE helps in reproducing solid picture edges in compressed highlights:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/micro/xdcamex/solutions/Reproducing_Solid_Picture_Edges.pdf

KNEE APERTURE helps in reproducing solid picture edges in compressed highlights:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/micro/xdcamex/solutions/Reproducing_Solid_Picture_Edges.pdf

Thanks Piotr! I got it. So you are saying if sharpness is turned down it is good to turn knee aperture up a bit to avoid getting an image that is to fuzzy?

Thanks Piotr! I got it. So you are saying if sharpness is turned down it is good to turn knee aperture up a bit to avoid getting an image that is to fuzzy?

Well, these are independent things - Tom has mentioned this parameter as a good way to recreate edge definition, deteriorated by the highlights compression; it doesn't need to have anything in common with the level of DETAIL, which is applied to the whole picture (not just highlights).

Well, these are independent things - Tom has mentioned this parameter as a good way to recreate edge definition, deteriorated by the highlights compression; it doesn't need to have anything in common with the level of DETAIL, which is applied to the whole picture (not just highlights).

Thanks again Priotr! I am right now doing some tests and have found a detail level of 15 an acceptable compromise. I also tried changing the crispening between 0,15 and 60 but could not see any difference. What numbers are you guys using to reduce noise? That's what it's supposed to do right?

Ola,

When I switch Detail on (never higher than 0), I sometimes use crispening to get rid of excessive noise; you're right that for really visible effects, it needs to be at 60+. But it does work - best on the mosquito noise (not the chroma noise, typical for lowlight areas).

However, I'm using Detail off most of the time and leave crispening at the default value of 0.

For dramatic stuff I will usually turn the detail off. Be very careful with some of the newer cameras (and I believe the PDW-700 is included in this judging by the pre production one I used unless they have changed it) as going negative too far actually artificially softens the picture.

-20 on the XDCAM cameras is usually 'real' 0. So you might like to try that as a base point from which to make further adjustments. Not sure about the 700 though as I haven't had my hands on a final production version yet.

As Piotr pointed out, you may also have to adjust the crispening function too when you adjust detail, as well as Level Depend, and also Aperture frequency and Aperture level. They all interact and getting the balance can be difficult unless you really know what you are doing.

Simon,

Any hints on a correlation between Level Depend and the EX1 menu items?

Thanks for all the feedback guys, very helpful. I shot a sports event yesterday with Detail off and the results look great so I'll leave it off for now.

I'm assuming a similar effect could be had in post anyway if required.

Paul.

If you use detail you should also adjust frequency. A higher frequency gives a thinner "halo" line. Like most EX1 settings, the right level for all of the detail settings is dependent on the scene you are shooting.

I REDUCE the knee aperture setting, to reduce the perception of excessive sharpening in the highlights of foliage, and leaves. I want acceptable detail in the greenery without excessive definition in the compressed highlights, i.e. the white glinting highlights on tree leaves, white caps on water etc. Those are the high contrast cues that can wreck an image with the perception of EE and ringing noise.

You DECREASE knee aperture to reduce the sharpening effect on those hightlights. You want to retain the definition within the greenery and mid-tones, but not sparkle it with white glinting highlights that scream of sharpening.

The frequency setting is a filter. Increasing the value (I think I'm right) applies filtering to prevent MOIRE on highly detailed geometric shapes like chain link or picket fences. Reducing it (I think I'm right) passes more detail but also possibly allows moire artifacts to be passed to the image.

Crispening is like the CORING filter in the Canon family of cameras. Increasing the crispening increases the noise filtering, cutting down on fine grain type noise but also softening the detail.

As a starting point for 24p, you could try:

Detail -13
Crispening: +5
Knee Aperture: -5

One problem, is that different settings should be considered according to the gamma selected and the color matrix. For Std3, you need to consider the manual knee gamma (apart from the knee aperture in detail). HiSat does not look very natural to me in Std3, as it does in Cine1. HiSat ranges from okay in bright daylight to excessively unnatural in flat light, in Std3.

So I think a problem we have in agreeing on one detail setting (or even just on or off) depends so much on the other settings we are using with it.

But to add one footnote to the discussion, I think the knee aperture has the more direct influence on the offensive black/white halos than does the frequency.

I hope to experiment with the white and black limiters within the detail menu, but so far I am rather pleased with the settings I'm using for 24p, and have a little more work to do for 60i.

I like the Std3 gamma in combination with the manual knee gamma settings, and Std color matrix +4 which means I'm operating with a different starting point than the majority who are using the cine gammas.

See page 72 of the EX1 manual - "Setting the center frequency higher decreases the details,"

It does this by making the edge enhancement narrower. Higher frequency = narrower. Lower frequency = wider.

Here is a link to a Google book excerpt that explains detail controls. You may have to copy/paste -

http://books.google.com/books?id=5jAW4ljcPK0C&pg=PA79&dq=detail+frequency+width+of+edge+enhancement&sig=ACfU3U1jnTa3zUlPSO_Hobo08y8PmIkPyA

Good book by the way. Lots of simple explanations for things that are not very obvious without an explanation.

Quoting the Detail Frequency section "this control affects the width of edge enhancement around objects. Increasing the detail frequency value decreases the width of the edge enhancement." -Peter Ward

Detail frequency has been doing this since the adjustment was made on internal circuit boards with a tiny screwdriver. And yes, fatter lines will also increase moire.

George, if I hadn't been wrong (and you right) about the frequency settings, you wouldn't have called me out on it, therefore I accept your thanks ;-)

Seriously, great link and information from the betacam book.

Here is some information from Sony that might be of interest. It was specifically in response to a question about matching the EX1 to the look of the HVX, but there are aspects relevant to this thread.

"The F-900R and Ex1 do not apply electronic enhancement (sharpening)when the detail is set OFF or when the DETAIL is set ON, but DETAIL LEVEL is set at zero. When the DETAIL is ON, the amount of electronic enhancement increases in proportion to the numerical value as long as you adjust from zero to +99. Setting the level at a negative number (0 to -99)invokes a softening algorithm which Sony calls SOFT FOCUS. The effect of the SOFT FOCUS filter is to increasingly soften the image in correlation with the negative numerical value. This may be exactly what you are trying to accomplish, but bear in mind that it will not be possible to reverse this filter in post production! Judging image quality on-set, using small, screen-size TV screens can be dangerously deceiving. You may recall that Andrew Young shot all of the Ex footage with enhancement OFF. Andrew Young's footage on either the 35mm film-out or 4K projections resolved fined detail and image texture without looking electronic in close-ups or extreme wide angle scenes,

The difference in perceived image sharpness is that the EX has three full raster 2.2 mega pixel 1920x1080p imagers (just like an F-900R or F-23 . On the other hand, the HVX-200 and 500 design are based 1/2 megapixel CCDs with only 960x540 pixels, commonly found in standard definition cameras. Small pixel count inherently leads to image softness which is aggravated by the necessarily strong anti-aliasing resolution cut filter. Aliasing manifest itself as wavy moiré interference superimposed on the image. HVX camcorders use spatial offset technique to ameliorate aliasing. However, it is necessary to remember that spatial offset is not a panacea. It works partially on strong black and white transitions (like a test pattern), but does not work much with natural images and does not work at all if green is missing (such as when shooting a red woven sweater). When designing a cameras that under samples, the designer must add a strong optical low pass filter (resolution cut filter to reduce aliasing).

My recommendation is to shoot with the detail set at zero, this way the image will retain low contrast high resolution detail and image texture and fine detail even in extreme wide angel shooting. You may elect to shoot in 720P mode which has inherently less pixels than 1080 for a softer image. By the way, the EX has full raster 1920x1080P imagers which run from 1 to 60 fps when the camera is set to 720P mode. This means that aliasing is not an issue (thanks to over sampling. Further image softening should be applied in post (where it is reversible)

Best,
Juan Martinez
Senior Manager
Sony Electronics Inc.

"The F-900R and Ex1 do not apply electronic enhancement (sharpening)when the detail is set OFF or when the DETAIL is set ON, but DETAIL LEVEL is set at zero. When the DETAIL is ON, the amount of electronic enhancement increases in proportion to the numerical value as long as you adjust from zero to +99. Setting the level at a negative number (0 to -99)invokes a softening algorithm which Sony calls SOFT FOCUS. The effect of the SOFT FOCUS filter is to increasingly soften the image in correlation with the negative numerical value.

Best,
Juan Martinez
Senior Manager
Sony Electronics Inc.

Serena,

I think Juan is wrong about the EX1 on this. Adam Wilt has said that perceptually, detail OFF is about the same as detail ON -30.

Interesting, but I think the specifics are incorrect. Detail off is definitely not the same as detail on, set to zero. Detail on, set to zero has some sharpening applied.

I did some early tests (grabs still posted here I'm sure) that show that detail at -20 at least looks the same to eye as detail off. Not sure if it's mathematically the same, but it looks the same.

Detail below -20 is like a post blur. But it's not a pretty gaussian blur or defocus algorithm - instead it looks suspiciously like a box blur, which are used in visual effects when quality is not as important as computational speed.

When the radius of Sony's "soft focus" blur gets big (detail -99 for example) it is incredibly ugly to my eye. A simple gaussian blur in post looks much better than Sony's box blur.

It's well known and obvious that with detail ON and set to 0, there is sharpening.

Here's the proof.

Turn OFF detail and focus using Peaking.
Now leave the camera focused and turn on Detail set to 0.

Notice how much peaking increases.....To tell you the truth, you don't need peaking to see this. It quite obvious on its own