Hi Everyone
Great Thread as I"m also considering a new camera. Right now I'm shooting with the Sony VX2000 and DSR-250. 2000 is 4 years old and the 250 all decked out is 19lbs. ugh! But I shoot legal video so need the date/time stamp that the 250 has but I don't take the 250 on the road with me. Our trip last March to Europe where I shot some tourist and railfan stuff for DVD's I took the 2000. wish I had a HD cam though. Shot natural light in Budapest's historic metro line. Wonder how this 150 would do?

YouTube - Budapest's Historic Metro Line 1. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy6VY2hYsyw)


Editing with Vegas 8 pro and Final Cut Express on my new MacBook Pro. I'll be upgrading my editing machine to a Mac Pro and Final Cut Studio 2 as well as BootCamp and XP for Vegas.

My 2 majpor concerns, well 3 if you consider editing the AVCHD format, is focus and low light capabilities. I get some fantastic low light shots like in Subways with my 2000.

So how is the 150 in low light? Also I've heard that focusing is critical with the HD cameras. Not a easy as in SD? Most ofmy technical shooting requires me to just lock the focus to infinity. Legal work is a talking head so can get the focus set and leave it alone.

Thanks
Allen

...But I shoot legal video so need the date/time stamp that the 250 has but I don't take the 250 on the road with me. Our trip last March to Europe where I shot some tourist and railfan stuff for DVD's I took the 2000. wish I had a HD cam though. Shot natural light in Budapest's historic metro line. Wonder how this 150 would do?

Editing with Vegas 8 pro and Final Cut Express on my new MacBook Pro. I'll be upgrading my editing machine to a Mac Pro and Final Cut Studio 2 as well as BootCamp and XP for Vegas.

My 2 majpor concerns, well 3 if you consider editing the AVCHD format, is focus and low light capabilities. I get some fantastic low light shots like in Subways with my 2000.

So how is the 150 in low light? Also I've heard that focusing is critical with the HD cameras. Not a easy as in SD? Most ofmy technical shooting requires me to just lock the focus to infinity. Legal work is a talking head so can get the focus set and leave it alone.

Thanks
Allen

1. I believe the 150 has time/date stamp available in the menu.

2. Vegas 8.0c Pro works great with AVCHD HMC-150 material. It would be very slow rendering on a notebook machine. I use 8.0c, no problems there.

3. The auto focus is good, about typical IMO. It's a little slower in 24P. The manual focus tools are pro quality (zoom/outline/focus graph). It's easy to manually focus as needed and the LCD is as big as they get on-camera.

4. The HMC-150 is the most sensitive and lowest noise 1/3" sensor camera currently available. You will have to go to a 1/2" or 2/3" camera to beat the HMC-150. For example, the HMC-150 sensitivity is equal to the 1/2" Sony EX-1.

Hi Daren, i just want to thank you for posting your footage. It was invaluable for me as a test bench with AVCHD/Vegas 8c workflow. It seems pretty sleek, no problem at all... Slower playback than with DV, but so much more resolution! I think all will be sweet with a faster (9550 Quad) cpu , and an HMC150. Can't wait for this one arriving in Canada (next week?).

Thanks!!

For those interested, I have shot some test footage in all the framerates and posted it online. It's the first chance to download some production model HMC150 footage onto your own system to assess and play around with.

http://hdmuse.com/HMC150_Test_Footage_Sept_25_2008.zip is the PRIVATE folder right off the card (inside another folder then .zipped)
http://hdmuse.com/HMC150_Test_Footage_Sept_25_2008.rtf is a log of all 32 clips with framerate and duration

Have fun with it everyone!!

-Darren

I just picked up an HMC 150 last week, as I need two cams for a lot of my shoots lately. It's a very nice cam. Went with it as opposed to a 2nd XHA1 primarily due to the codec, and a concern about how HDV was handling motion when I shot soccer. So far I think it was a very good move, however the controls are very different indeed.

On the Canon, it's easy enough to adjust white balance or gain w/o going full manual. I typically set my gain at -3db, and manually white balance but otherwise have it on automatic.
It looks like on the 150, I cannot do that type of thing? It is either full auto, or full manual without the ability to tweak wb or other parameters while retaining auto exposure, for example.
I read the manual but did not see anything covering this.
Am I missing something?

how does the lowlight compare to the hpx 170? is it the same lowlight capabilities, but with the DVC Pro Codec?

Yes, that is what Panasonic said at DV Expo.

It is either full auto, or full manual without the ability to tweak wb or other parameters while retaining auto exposure, for example.
I read the manual but did not see anything covering this.
Am I missing something?


I was just wondering if this is user error or a real issue. I’m in the market for two 150s and use half manual, half auto for run and gun all the time.

-John

What do you think is a good secondary camera to mix with the HMC150 when doing weddings? Is there going to be a problem matching up the footage when consumer AVCHD cams have 13Mbps compared to the 21 that this camera can do? What about trying to match HDV footage?

I wish I could afford to buy two 150s but that is not possible right now, so I'm trying to figure out which camera to match it with until I can afford two.

Hi,

I'm interested in this camera. I'm using Final Cut Pro on an intel mac. What are the advantages of this camera compared to my XH A1.

I know no tapes anymore and I understand there has to be made some conversion before I can edit in FCP. On a Mac Pro how fast will this be? Faster than using tapes?

btw I saw FCP 6.0.5 now supports the camera

Is this camera true 1080 or is it like the HVX200?

I just picked up an HMC 150 last week, as I need two cams for a lot of my shoots lately. It's a very nice cam. Went with it as opposed to a 2nd XHA1 primarily due to the codec, and a concern about how HDV was handling motion when I shot soccer. So far I think it was a very good move, however the controls are very different indeed.

That's for sure on the controls being different. It's actually Panasonic, Sony & JVC that have a fairly standard controls package IMO. It's Canon with the camara style control wheel that is non-standard.

On the Canon, it's easy enough to adjust white balance or gain w/o going full manual. I typically set my gain at -3db, and manually white balance but otherwise have it on automatic.
It looks like on the 150, I cannot do that type of thing? It is either full auto, or full manual without the ability to tweak wb or other parameters while retaining auto exposure, for example.
I read the manual but did not see anything covering this.
Am I missing something?

You have probably figured it out by now, when you first switch to manual, the iris goes manual and you use the thumbwheel. Press the iris button to toggle auto/manual iris. After a few weeks when you get the hang of the HMC-150, you will probably like it better. Every thing else you mention will work A1 style when you get the hang of it. Make sure ATW is on, I think default is off.

Tips to match to the A1 :
1. Turn the knee to low on the HMC-150, this keeps the highlights from blowing out.
2. By turning the master pedestal to a + number, the black level is brighter and you get a less contrasty, more A1ish look.

Is this camera true 1080 or is it like the HVX200?

The only true 1920X1080 camera in the prosumer category is the 1/2" Sony EX-1.

The HMC-150 has the updated HVX200a 1/3" sensor block.

Panasonic 1/3" is a 960X540 native progressive sensor offset by 0.5 pixel (pixel shifted).
Larger more sensitive and less noisy pixels with lower resolution.

The Canon 1/3" is a 1440X1080 native interlaced sensor using non-square pixels.
Smaller pixels providing more resolving power and less sensitivity and more noise.

If you want both, get an EX-1 or wait for the next 1/3" sensor update.

Jeff, thanks for the input on Iris control and on matching the A1's output. This will make cutting footage together a whole lot simpler....I am gradually getting operational issues sorted out.
SW

I have shot a few events with my new HMC150, and really just started editing them this week. I currently have to transcode the AVCHD files to DVCProHD files using the transcoder down-loaded from the Panasonic website. That was to be my planned workflow until late this coming spring when I could hopefully spring for a new computer.

But the transcoding process is a pain at the least. Now I was counting on needing about a GB a minute after files were transcoded to DVCProHD....I transcoded a soccer game of an hour in length and sure enough it was a 55GB file size.

but when I put it on the time line in Premiere Pro CS3 it would not play back smoothly and there was a red bar above the video clips. So I rendered them,,,actually it's still working on it....it's raking 12 hours to do....and now I have a file that's 105GB's and counting. It will not be finished rendering for another 2.5 hours. By that time, file size could be about 120 GB's for an hour's worth of video. I shot it at 720/60p, by the way.

Is this typical in terms of file size, of what I should be seeing? I must be doing something wrong, but do not know what. The time requirements, while outrageous, may be due to my 1.5 year old computer, running a Intel Pentium D-940, (says its a dual core w/hyperthreading), 2GB's of 533 mhz RAM, and a Nvidia "GeForce" 7600 w/256mb's on it. I have several TB's of storage hooked up to it, the drive I was copying these files was a 750 GB eSata w/ 130GB's free space on it. Well, that's gone now!

Any help or suggestions would sure be appreciated.
Are these file sizes typical when transcoding is used?
After backing up, an hour of video would cost about 4 GB's a minute. That seems excessive at the least, coming from working with HDV where an hour of edited video might cost 50GB's.

It looks like my options are to try and push forward the purchase of a new super-computer so I can edit AVCHD natively and upgrade to Premiere CS4 in the process, or...go back to just shooting HDV with the XHA1, which would certainly cost a whole lot less green.
Is this really typical of what the HMC150 needs in terms of file sizes (when transcoded) or what path(s) should I be taking here? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I think your best bet would be to upgrade to cs4 first to handle the files natively. But then again your second problem is your pc. for avchd a 1,5 year old pc doesn't cut it anymore.
That was the main reason why I bought a xh-a1 2 months ago. I knew avchd would be a pain in the ***, at least for now and i didn't want to upgrade again.

I currently have to transcode the AVCHD files to DVCProHD files .....
It would be better if you could avoid DVCProHD, and maybe use the NLEs native codec - ProRes for FCP, or Canopus' own codec with Edius.

There seems a concensus that this camera is best in 720p mode - that suits the res of the chips nicely, and means that the compressor is less taxed than in 1080 mode.

A good thing about this camera is that the 720 recording mode of AVCHD is full raster - 1280x720. Transcode to DVCProHD, and for 720p that has a raster size of 960x720, so you would seem to be subsampling rather needlessly.

but when I put it on the time line in Premiere Pro CS3 it would not play back smoothly and there was a red bar above the video clips.

I shot it at 720/60p, by the way.
1. Make sure that you use PPro CS3.2
2. You *must* edit your 720/60p footage in a DVCPRO HD 720p 60p project.

Good to know:
- 720/60p footage in a DVCPRO HD 720p 60p Project = No red render bar
- 720/60p footage in *any other* Project = Red render bar
- *Any other* footage in a DVCPRO HD 720p 60p Project = Red render bar

The footage must match the Project settings to avoid the red render bar on footage with no effects applied.

I'm seriously considering buying this camcorder and I'm doing my research. I've read in this thread that the "sweet spot" seems to be 720p and thats probably what I would use it in most, but can anyone tell me how it compares to the XH-A1 in 1080 in terms of image quality?

Thanks

I'm seriously considering buying this camcorder and I'm doing my research. I've read in this thread that the "sweet spot" seems to be 720p and thats probably what I would use it in most, but can anyone tell me how it compares to the XH-A1 in 1080 in terms of image quality?

Thanks

Check out the posts on here and on DVXuser.com.

In a nutshell, the A1 is slightly better quality in bright light and the HMC-150 is slightly better in low light. For any indoor shooting, say a childs birthday party, the HMC-150 is significantly better because of the much wider angle lens and better sensitivity and low noise. Go to the beach and shoot some of the tankers in the bay and the A1 is significantly better because of a longer lens and a little more detailed image.

They are both great cameras. Only us pixel peepers even see the difference in the cameras.
Look at the features and tapeless vs.tape.

I shot a few weddings using the HMC-150 & A1 both in 1080i since they both shoot that mode. The results cut together nicely.

I have started shooting 720P30 now that the Canons are gone, but I honestly can't tell the difference between this and 1080.

The Panasonic is more of a professional product and not as user friendly as the Canon IMO. And the Pana needs an aftermarket mic immediately. I would get the shooters kit if it can be had for a deal.

The biggest diff to me is in workflow requirements: The Canon A1 requires only the usual HDV editing computing configuration, whereas editing AVCHD requires either transcoding to DVCProHD, or having access to a pretty stout quad core to edit AVCHD files natively. I am going the transcoding route for a while, although this tends to create rather large file sizes.
I use Adobe CS3 and it was cool to be able to mix some 1080/60i from the A1 with some 720/60p from the HMC150. It actually worked. Cut well together, too.

The biggest diff to me is in workflow requirements: The Canon A1 requires only the usual HDV editing computing configuration, whereas editing AVCHD requires either transcoding to DVCProHD, or having access to a pretty stout quad core to edit AVCHD files natively. I am going the transcoding route for a while, although this tends to create rather large file sizes.
I use Adobe CS3 and it was cool to be able to mix some 1080/60i from the A1 with some 720/60p from the HMC150. It actually worked. Cut well together, too.

Steve:

What CPU are you running? My primary editing machine has a Q6600. The Q6600 lets me edit the HMC-150 files natively easily using Vegas Pro 8.0c. I have editied 1080i A1 & HMC-150 footage natively on the timeline at the same time from dual cam shoots with no problem.

The current Vegas 8.0c chokes on 720 24P and 720 60P right now. Waiting for an update. But all the other modes are great editing. So for Tom, 720P30 is great on Vegas now, 720P24 is not for now.

Jeff

Hi Jeff, I am running a PC with:

Intel Pentium D-940
2GB 533mhz DDR
NVidia GeForce 7600GT (256MB)
Several TB's of storage and back-up.

Hi Jeff, I am running a PC with:
Intel Pentium D-940
2GB 533mhz DDR

Time to upgrade. I have a D930 desktop system which could never quite handle HDV adequately, while my newer laptop with a Core 2 Duo processor does much better.

Time to upgrade. I have a D930 desktop system which could never quite handle HDV adequately, while my newer laptop with a Core 2 Duo processor does much better.

Steve:

I agree with Kevin.

Quad core systems are so inexpensive at this point, you should make the move. Or go all the way to a i7/Nehalem system.

Your editing frustrations will be releaved a lot with a new machine.

Jeff

Yes, I suppose that I do need a computer upgrade soon. I am trying to put that off another 3 to 4 months for $$$ reasons. Plus my current machine has a pretty decent blu ray burner installed, which I do use, so it could hurt cost wise to change.

Hi everyone,

I am hoping there may be a 1.4 tele lens or similar for the new 150 Camera. I am considering buying the Sony FX1000 mainly due to its 20X zoom which is great for me as I film alot of sport. That camera also has a wonderful very fast zoom speed critical for "getting in" very fast".

I was appalled at the last Panasonic HD cam (whatever it was) as it had the slowest zoom on earth!

Obviously the new Panasonic is not tape based which sounds appealing but the 13X lens to me is very off putting.

My past experience with tele lens' is that anything past a 1.4 tele gives you the black ring when on a wide shot.

On my Panasonic DVC-62 (52mm i think) and Sony TRV900 (43mm) I have used a Sony 1.4 lens and don not get the black ring. The 1.4 just gets you in there and makes a big big difference to the impact of how gootage looks.

If I thought there was a 1.4 or 1.5 lens that did the job on the new Pana 150 then I might go for it as I can see its a great cam, very light and no TAPE!

What is the mm of the lens?

There seems to be a bit of paranoia about using the card system. Surely any professional video guy would be transferring to hard drive and then transferring to another drive as a further back up.

Hard Drives are cheap these days.

I shot a few weddings using the HMC-150 & A1 both in 1080i since they both shoot that mode. The results cut together nicely.



Thanks for the info Jeff. Seeing that you have shot a few weddings with it now, have you had any issues with the clips spanning together properly. With the 4 gb max file size on the SDHC cards, I have heard that there were some issues in some NLE's with regards to them not assembling the clips properly or even dropped frames around the splicing point.

Obviously, it is important for a wedding videographer or for any long form type of video to have a seamless transition as a clip exceeds 4 gb and a new clip is started. Any issues with this yet?

Thanks for the info Jeff. Seeing that you have shot a few weddings with it now, have you had any issues with the clips spanning together properly. With the 4 gb max file size on the SDHC cards, I have heard that there were some issues in some NLE's with regards to them not assembling the clips properly or even dropped frames around the splicing point.

Obviously, it is important for a wedding videographer or for any long form type of video to have a seamless transition as a clip exceeds 4 gb and a new clip is started. Any issues with this yet?

I have heard about these issues in many posts. So far, partially based on the way I shoot, I have never seen a problem yet. I actually don't know if I don't have the problem or just haven't seen it. Since I haven't seen it, Im not sure how bad it is or whether it's a NLE or file/camera issue.

I usually do a two camera shoot. The longest camera roll I do is during the ceremony. Even on this long roll, I cut between the two cameras pretty often in post. So, I never have had a situation where I put a 4GB File break right in the active scene. Not on purpose mind you, it's just never happened so far and I have very few of the 4GB breaks, if any.

If someone was on single camera wedding shoot and there was a noticeable amount of lost frames, that would be a problem. Im sure I could fairly easily gloss the video & audio over, but we shouldn't have to deal with something like that. There is enough work on the edit without camera based issues.

Hi everyone,

I am hoping there may be a 1.4 tele lens or similar for the new 150 Camera. I am considering buying the Sony FX1000 mainly due to its 20X zoom which is great for me as I film alot of sport. That camera also has a wonderful very fast zoom speed critical for "getting in" very fast"..

The 150 certainly could use more reach. A positive note is the 150 lens is much wider than the FX1000 or XH-A1. I guess you can't have both. There are tele extenders available for the 150 from Schneider Optics.

Panasonic AG-HPX170 / AG-HMC150 Attachments- Schneider Optics (http://www.schneideroptics.com/century/dv/AG-HPX170/AG-HPX170.htm)

Not sure about the zoom speed. I would just use manual if you need very fast zoom.

If I thought there was a 1.4 or 1.5 lens that did the job on the new Pana 150 then I might go for it as I can see its a great cam, very light and no TAPE!

The Schneider tele extender for the 150 is a 1.6. It portholes from 1/2 camera zoom and less.

Martin,

I think the AVCHD codec has distinct advantages over HDV in the way the codecs handle motion when shooting sports that can outweigh that 20X zoom. Since you will be shooting HD on the 150 ( that's all it does) you would have the ability to "zoom in" in post as needed, in a lot of cases, where that 13X zoom range is not enough.

I have shot a lot of soccer from the side of the field, and rarely needed anywheres near the full 20X that tghe A1 offers. What I would have liked to have was a litle wider lens, so when the players are charging along coming right at you, you can follow that action even when they are almost on top of you.

My results in shooting soccer with the A1 were generally pretty good. However I did see an improvement in clarity over HDV, maybe it was due to my improving technique, maybe the cam or both. But that experience has gotten me a job this spring doing video sports resumes for which I will rely primarily on the HMC due to the codec's better handling of motion. I am keeping the A1 as backup, and will use it if that 20X or certain prresets become necessary.
But the codec--AVCHD--is just better suited for sports work than is HDV, so if it were me--I'd nix the Sony based just on that. Especially if you are selling the output to a client.
SW

The 150 certainly could use more reach. A positive note is the 150 lens is much wider than the FX1000 or XH-A1. I guess you can't have both.

The stats say the 150 is 28mm and the Z5/FX1000 is 29.5mm. Doesn't sound much wider to me unless I'm misreading the info.

I have a question...
Can the HMC150 hookup to a computer (I know it would have to be USB because it doesn't have a Firewire port) and do a live capture to the hard drive? I have done this with DV and HDV cams and was curious if the HMC150 also had this capability. I have recorded plays or recitals to my computer's hard drive using log and capture as the event happens to save time for editing and meanwhile making a backup on tape simultaneously. Thanks to anyone for the answer to this question!

I was wondering the same thing and for practically the same reasons.

I have a question...
Can the HMC150 hookup to a computer (I know it would have to be USB because it doesn't have a Firewire port) and do a live capture to the hard drive? I have done this with DV and HDV cams and was curious if the HMC150 also had this capability. I have recorded plays or recitals to my computer's hard drive using log and capture as the event happens to save time for editing and meanwhile making a backup on tape simultaneously. Thanks to anyone for the answer to this question!

Only through HDMI which would require a strong computer, an Intensity card (http://blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/) and fast SATA drives. Live capturing HD video takes a LOT more bandwidth than DV/HDV over firewire. One benefit that could make it all worthwhile is that it would be uncompressed, providing a better-than-AVCCAM image.

Thanks, Darren. That's kind of a bummer. Do they make that card in an Express Card/34 version for notebooks? The AG-HMC150 looks like a nice cam and has a nice price, but something's like no firewire on it puzzle me.

Well firewire could never capture the HD bandwidth anyway so its omission on the HMC150 is a relatively moot point. With today's computers, live capture of a full 1920x1080p image can't be done without some HDMI hardware. The Intensity is only $250 but is PCI-x form factor. Here is a hack to stuff one inside a Macbook Pro (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/hdv2-canon-vixia-hv40-hv30-hv20-hv10/126256-blackmagic-intensity-macbook-pro-portable.html) for the brave warranty-be-damned types out there