Hi all,

I am using the Sony HVR Z7 (PAL) with few still Nikon prime lenses 300, 400 and zoom 50-300 for wildlife filmmaking.
As I am sure everyone knows - touching the fluid head handle introduces massive vibration with such long lenses.
I currently use the Vinten Vision 3.
Is there a way to eliminate these vibrations - better/more massive fluid head? How about pulling the handle with a string? What kind of a string? Any other technique and advice are highly appreciated.

Here is short clip of wild bats (Flying Foxes) I got using the Nikon 400mm mounted on the Z7. There are no vibration in here as I wasn't touching the head or handle.
http://www.vimeo.com/1127928/l:transcoded_email
Thanks !!

Ofer Levy - Nature photographer
Sydney-Australia, http://www.oferlevyphotography.com

You probably won't be able to eliminate the shakes completely, but a larger tripod will help somewhat (as will carbon fiber legs and a long pan handle). In the meantime, adjust your drag so that it isn't too loose; it will take greater inertia to initiate the move. Keep the tripod legs in a wide stance, and practice, practice, practice.

Provided the head is matched to the mass and COG of the camera/ lens system, any upgrade to it will do little to solve the shakes problem.

It most usually isn't the head that's the problem, but the support underneath it.

It sounds like yours is seriously under - rated for the task it's being asked to perform.

With those lenses of yours you really need the tripod equivalent of a 2 tonne block of concrete.

The only ones I KNOW for sure can perform such a task are these, tho' undoubtedly there are others out there.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/276287-REG/Vinten_34983_3498_3_ENG_EFP_2_Stage_Fibertec.html

If you can afford them (and the mid level spreader + bag etc) don't hang about, they've been discontinued since Christmas, and once B&H sell out, that's it.

My review of same:

http://www.dvinfo.net/articles/camsupport/fibertec1.php

I'm afraid you won't get the level of rigidity required with anything costing significantly less.


CS

If I've understood Ofer correctly, it isn't the head stability, it's what happens as you touch the pan handle. You frame the shot and let go the handle. you need to at some point touch it again, and it's this touch that introduces the shake. I also find it's worse because you have your eye glued to the viewfinder, and have to find the bar by touch. You know where it is, 'nearly' and have to find it very, very gently. What I do to minimise the shake is find it very close to the head, then gently move towards the operating end. This makes it a bit less prone to the shake. The theory says having a long handle is best, but I smetime find that with a decent head I can initiate a smooth pan by moving the head itself, not the pan bar, which is too sensitive.

If I've understood Ofer correctly, it isn't the head stability, it's what happens as you touch the pan handle. You frame the shot and let go the handle. you need to at some point touch it again, and it's this touch that introduces the shake. I also find it's worse because you have your eye glued to the viewfinder, and have to find the bar by touch. You know where it is, 'nearly' and have to find it very, very gently. What I do to minimise the shake is find it very close to the head, then gently move towards the operating end. This makes it a bit less prone to the shake. The theory says having a long handle is best, but I smetime find that with a decent head I can initiate a smooth pan by moving the head itself, not the pan bar, which is too sensitive.

Thanks fpr your input guys !
That is correct Paul - if I don't touch the handle - no vibrations, but when I have to make a camera movement and touch the handle it looks bad.
Has anyone tried to use a string attached to the handle? I have tried it and it does significantly reduces the problem but not completely.

Try the string for yourself and see if it helps. I don't think it will do much, because you don't have the same tactile feel of the mass as when your hand is on the pan handle. I keep a light touch on (or hovering above) the handle when I know a move will be needed, otherwise, you often wind up banging into it with too much force when your hand has been off for a while.

Keep in mind that wind is also your enemy when shooting outdoors with long lenses...other than using a duck-blind, you might not be able to eliminate all source of the 'shakes'.

There are motorized pan/tilt heads available, but don't expect to follow a subject as well as with your own hand-eye coordination on the viewfinder.

I use wide elastic (1" wide) and make a sort of strap for the handle. I can feel for the elastic without bumping the handle and then simply pull in the direction I want - looks messy - works well (for me anyway)

Ofer,

Will you do this little test for me?

Mount up your camera with the longest lens you have onto your VV 3.

Site up a target a good way off at full zoom in.

Lock the pan and tilt locks on the head - HARD!

Run video.

Grab the pan bar and try to make the head follow a circle, as if you were focussed onto the end of a spinning propellor.

Watch the video.

If the lens/ video actually DOES move in a circular pattern, then this is NOT a head issue.

It is a sticks issue.

The head and the attached camera and lenses can only move if there is flex in the support.

If there's flex in the support, nothing you do will eliminate the shakes/ wobbles untill you get a support which does not flex.

String, rubber bands and sealing wax may reduce the severity of your problems but are no substitute for a proper support system.


CS

Ofer,
You didn't mention it, but do you have some kind of rail/common plate system that ties your camera and lens together as one unit that you then mount on your Vision 3.

Thanks for your excellent comments and advice guys !! I really appreciate it!

I have tried to use the camera mounted on a Wimberley head which is desgined for super long still telephoto lenses - locked everytrhing but when I touch the handle even very gently - the vibrations are very evident. I guess this can not be avoided when using effective 2000-3000mm lenses. (400mm still lens when mounted on a 1/3 inch sensoer camera becomes effectivly x7 stronger = 2800mm !!! )

Ofer, I don't think it will be possible to get rid of vibrations with those huge focal lenght you're talking about, in case you're not cementing it to a rock!
I've been using 300- and 500mm for the Canon XL-series for some years and even with a monster of a tripod system I get vibrations in some grade in my footage.
To minimum the vibrations I try not to touch the set up while recording, or when I have to do a pan, adjusting the drag of the head to very high! I this cases you got it as good as it can be.
Link to my tripod setup: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachment.php?attachmentid=5250&d=1196152047

Ofer,
What Per Johan showed you is the right direction to go. The site below shows many examples of similar setups.

http://www.ronsrail.com/gallery.html

The Ronsrail is currently out of stock, and Ron doesn't know when it will be available again, but you can get the idea. The Wimberley is really meant for still photography, and will not work well mounting only using the lens tripod collar, or just mounting the camera as a single point attachment. I use a common plate to tie my XL H1 and Nikon 80-400mm lens together, and my only weak point is the junk 501 head I'm currently using. I'm looking at a Vision 3, which I have had my rig on before, and with the proper spring, it's more than enough, as long as the camera and lens is balanced properly on the head.

Thanks Per Johan and Don ! I guess I will have to live with some vibrations when panning and avoid touching the camera/lens in still shots. I believe the Vinten Vision 3 and my Miller carbon fibre tripod are the right tools for this task.
I do use a bar support system but with these long lenses I just attach the combo camera+lens to the fluid head via the lens "leg".

Hi Ofer,

I am glad you raised these issues as I too find it very frustrating. I have a fairly substantial tripod setup however, as soon as you want to start/finish some movement....well you know what happens.

I have been experimenting and I notice if I start the pan with my fingernail - rather than your finger tips or hand, I manage to get things moving quite nicely and also remove the "return" I get at the end of the pan (where the head want to return back a mmm or so). I also move the bar of the handle lever - rather than the spongy grip on the end. In other words, any movement I make is made without any of the flexible parts, ie handle grip, fingertips or your hand. This seems to be helping and with a bit of practice will probably become the approach I adopt in the future.

It certainly drives you nuts when you capture that great shot - only to see that annoying and unprofessional shake ruin that rare moment.

Hi Ofer,

I am glad you raised these issues as I too find it very frustrating. I have a fairly substantial tripod setup however, as soon as you want to start/finish some movement....well you know what happens.

I have been experimenting and I notice if I start the pan with my fingernail - rather than your finger tips or hand, I manage to get things moving quite nicely and also remove the "return" I get at the end of the pan (where the head want to return back a mmm or so). I also move the bar of the handle lever - rather than the spongy grip on the end. In other words, any movement I make is made without any of the flexible parts, ie handle grip, fingertips or your hand. This seems to be helping and with a bit of practice will probably become the approach I adopt in the future.

It certainly drives you nuts when you capture that great shot - only to see that annoying and unprofessional shake ruin that rare moment.

Thanks for your valuable input David !
I will give it a try and will post my experience in here in a few days.

Hi Ofer -

I'm just going to put this out there as something to look at. Our tripod and head (K-Pod and Hercules 2.0) are built to withstand the weight of a camera crane setup, so they may be an option for you. I do not think you will have any issues with our K-Pod flexing on you.The drawback for you may be the weight (26 pounds), so it won't be as easy to carry around as a set of carbon fiber sticks.

http://kpod.kesslercrane.com

Hmmm... I wonder if the miracle rubber band trick posted somewhere here may help you?

Hmmm... I wonder if the miracle rubber band trick posted somewhere here may help you?

Thanks Ken !! This is what I was looking for ! (-:


http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=98213&highlight=rubber+band

It seems to me that the problem isn't just the rigidity of the legs but the mass of what you're moving and the nature of it. The long lens is not unlike a tuning fork and will vibrate.
These lenses have a longer focal length than the box lenses used on big broadcast cameras and those things are very heavy and very rigid.
What you ideally seem to need is a heavy unit on a low friction bearing. The inertia provides the damping. Increasing drag in the head increases the force on the legs and hence the windup, not what you want at all. A frame around the camera and lens made of steel or lead filled pipes would seem the solution along with some damping of the lens perhaps to stop/dampen vibrations.

Ofer, I would definitely suggest a beefier head. Also, I've never thought of the Vintens as being particularly good quality all round. I'd go for a Ronford Baker or an O'Connor. If you want to go light (ish) then a Ronford 2003 or O'Connor 1030 are both 3.5kg. Both are super smooth and with a good counterbalance system. Step up in weight a bit and the Ronford 2004 at 6.5kg or O'Connor 2060 at 7.5kg will be even better. Sachtler CF legs are nice, sturdy, light, but I'd only use the HD ones as the lightweight versions are pretty flimsy.
In the end though, you are never going to eliminate these shakes completely as your focal lengths are so huge, but a better head and legs will DEFINITELY help.
Hope this helps.
Steve

Also, shorter pan handle will help, or even holding onto the section where the handle attaches to the head, this'll give less leverage.
Just looked at some of your stuff on Vimeo by the way - quality looks excellent!
Steve

Ofer,
I am interested as to whether you have tried a remote control device for panning and tilting in order to reduce vibration in your images?

We have the same problem when filming backcountry ski descents from across a valley at full zoom (20X) on the Sony V1U. We are concerned that our vibrations will become even more intense upon adding a Letus 35mm adapter and nikon lens to enhance zoom.

Our vibration issues continue from the moment we touch the arm until we release it. Paning and tilting at the same time cause the greatest problems. Does your vibration problem continue after your initial touching of the arm through pan/tilt or are you more stable when moving?

(We are considering capitulating to physics and resorting to post production software solutions to remedy our camera shake issues.)

I don't think there's any remote system to help you, otherwise nature cameramen would have done it ages ago. What head do you use? A 20x zoom on a V1U is not an extreme magnification at all, should be well within the capabilities of Sachtler 25, Ronford 2004 etc., and certainly no problem for Sachtler 60 or O'Connor 2060/2575.
Steve

Ofer, I can second the suggestion of using a rubberband or elastic band of some sort. I use a medium size rubber band to pan with an XH-A1 at full telephoto and a Canon 500D closeup lens on it. I am basically panning in macro mode. Just barelly touching the handle sets off a wave of very visible vibrations. With practice and experimentation with the drag settings, and where you place the rubber band on the handle, the rubber band can help you get rid of all of the shaking during the filming of your clip. Getting a Lanc remote (I just started using the very inexpensive Digital Concepts RC800) will give you more flexibility and reduce shake from starting tape roll and zooming.

Pat

I have found 2 things that can help me. The first one is to pan the camera without using the pan handle at all. I grab the base of the head and move it from there. The second I think is an improvemnet on the rubber band trick. Use an old coiled telephone handset cable (from the "old days" before cellular phones) and attach it to the pan handle. It completely isolates most of your irregular movements from the pan handle and allows you to keep a pretty consistant pan going.

Gentlemen,
Thank you for your suggestions. We will be using the EX1 with Letus adapter and Nikon 500 reflex lens to shoot our descents from across the valley this Dec. 27 - Jan. 4.

We are increasing assembly weight and using a flexible attachment to try to resolve this shake issue.

I will do the following to reduce camera shake per your suggestions:
1. Use tele cord and/or rubber band attachment to the arm
2. Increase drag on tripod
3. Increase tripod head weight (from Monfrotto 501/503 to 516 head)
4. Increase tripod legs weight
5. The camera assembly will be heavier than the V1U which I had been using

(We may also have to wrap the tripod to help keep it warm in the low outdoor temperatures.)

I will make a follow-up post to this link to let everyone know about the results.

Steve,
We have been using the Manfrotto 503 head primarily. It seems that part of our problem is that our whole camera assembly with the V1U and Manfrotto 503 was simply too light. A little wind on the ridge, heavy breathing, (or shivering) really translated through the assembly to the shot.

Mark

I have been trying to reduce the weight of my video gear by making a smaller fluid head. It is hard to make a small fluid head with as much fluid drag as a larger head, however there is a trade off, as you do not have to apply as much torque to achieve pans and tilts you can use a lighter tripod also. The next problem is that a lighter set- up is more affected by tremors and vibrations caused by the operator. To overcome this problem look at the coupling between operator and tripod head i.e. the pan handle. Normally this is rigid but if a flexible linkage is used it becomes very difficult to transmit tremor. For a tripod handle on my mini fluid head I use a10” length of 1/4” nylon rod that bends alarmingly during pans and tilts. I control it with the tip of one finger. It gives my very smooth stops and starts. Another very successful means of eliminating vibrations is to drag the pan handle with a rubber band.
In my design I have aligned the tilt axis with centre of mass of the camera, i.e. the head is mounted to the side of the camera rather than underneath. This means I do not need counterbalancing springs that can be a source of “bounce” and if I set it up well I can park the camera in any tilt position.

Gents,
I reduced camera shake significantly by using a much heavier tripod. the Sachler Video 30 or 60. The camera assembly was upgraded to a EX3 with a 36X zoom lens attached. All this additional weight made a tremendous difference. It's a really heavy assembly for shooting backcountry ski descents however. At full zoom there was a little shake when first touching the handle, but once in motion the camera shake was not a factor. Remember, this was at 36X zoom.

This gear was hard to move around in the backcountry on a 1000cc snowmobile on trails that were not groomed well do to their weight and the weighing down of the back of the sled. We were continuously getting stuck!

So, the solution was a not a perfect fix given the logistical issues.

I sympathise with the problem which was why I did all the tests I've posted before.

I have many minutes of "cardiac footage" where my heart rate can be calculated by counting the oscillations of the image and the rarity of the bird, or the climb I've made, can be assessed by my heart-rate.

Watch long stationary shots of a test match, you know, when there's nothing happening and the bored cameraman shoots seagulls in the outfield, and you'll see lovely examples, and their gear weighs a ton!

Certainly in most cases the greater the weight of the sticks and head usually, but not if the locks are wobbly, the less micro movement there is.

But taking the hand of the handle makes the most difference in stationary shots.

tt