I found someone locally who edits with Media Composer and is using the new 3.0 version.

Once I opened my mind to the Avid way of editing, I saw how efficient it can really be.

So I was offered to test it since I'm considering it from Vegas. Brought with me several m2t files I had captured in Vegas to use as I ran through some of the basic tutorials on how to edit in the Avid interface.

Tried importing a single m2t file into my test bin, and the following error message comes up:

Exception: DIOTSPParser::Parse - bufferSize (245248) is invalid
File: \devices\MPEGParser\src\DIOTSPParser.cpp
Line: 483

Other clips throw similar type messages.

Between this and other users on the Vegas forums having real issues with longer form projects being edited in Vegas, I'm just about to throw my hands up and and say buh-bye to Vegas.

Anyone know why m2t files captured in Vegas throw this kind of error message in MC when trying to import them???

Is there a quick. free solution for getting these files working in MC to see what it's capable of for my kind of work or am I going to have to capture my footage from tape all over again - which is a pain since this colleague has to use this software a fair amount and I don't want to take up his time capturing tapes just to try some tutorials..

Hey Cliff....

Yep, I see you've discovered the continuing saga of m2t file injest. As before, the only solution I've found it to convert to cineform before importing.

Cliff,

I have to say I use .m2t files from Vegas in Xpress Pro 5.8.3 without a hitch. So the problem very well may be Avid's and not Vegas'. (I believe I captured them in Vegas 7, not 8.)

If you need to transcode them, I'd recommend TMPGEnc Xpress 4.0. It is simply a brilliant program that I believe everyone should own. It wil transcode anything into almost anything as long as have the codecs registered on your computer. It's price bounces between $70 and $100 depending on if there's a sale running.

HTH's.

for that matter, transcoding in VirtualDub works, and it's free. Transcoding to "uncompressed" is probably best.

Uncompressed - Yikes! I don't have that much HD space at the present time. I'm giving Pro Coder a try on some sample clips and so far it is converting the m2t's I captured in Vegas to m2t's again. I'm going to see if there is a drop in image quality (I hope not). If there are issues, any other file format/codec I should try that can be used by Media Composer that isn't uncompressed? I'm waiting on a fairly large invoice that will pay for some new hard drives to allow for larger files sizes but for now, I'm stuck with my 2x160 Raid0

Peter you might be right - this may very well be an issue specific to Vegas Pro 8.

This is ridiculous. I have been a strong advocate for Vegas Pro as the best professional app for editing solo video journalist content but these issues are leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

Cliff,

Not knowing how Vegas captures m2t's, I would do one of 2 or 3 things. Recapture into Avid from the original source tapes or capture the source tapes into CapDVHS which is free and then import the new m2t's into Avid. http://www.videohelp.com/tools/CapDVHS If that doesn't work use MPEGStreamclip to convert the m2t's to an Avid DNXHD file format. http://www.squared5.com/ for free MPEGStreamclip. This would save a few steps and compression hits without using Vegas/Procoder/Avid to go m2t to Vegas to m2t to Avid DNXHD. That's just way too many steps.

I hope this helps,

ps. If you don't have Quicktime Pro in your PC it will cost $25 to download the QT MPEG 2 plug-in from Apple in order for MPEGStreamclip to have full functionality.

Talk about making someone not want to use their product due to the hoops one has to jump through.

MPEGStreamclip tells me:

"One or more transport streams files have a bad size. Do you want to open anyway?
This usually happens when a file is incomplete"

I select ok and then it crashes. So that's not an option - every single clip I have tried has failed. From the sounds of it, I would need to recapture all my footage in MC. That's a lot of tape logging.

Out of curiosity, I tried doing scene splitting with HDVSplit to see if there was some sort of truncation of the Long GOP structure of each clip due to the nature of SONY's HDV capture utility. Sure enough, I did a batch scene split of my clips (132 in all), and MC imports every single one of them.

FYI for those who are thinking of Leaving (Las) Vegas Pro 8 for Media Composer.

exactly right, Cliff. Cineform works because it detects scene changes/splits. It would appear that there is some non-standardization between cam makers as to how to demark a scene change. There's huge timecode discontinuities at the spot where vegas chokes. Nevertheless, if Cineform can get it right, why can't Sony?

My issue is that I don't record on tape, but, rather to an external hard drive. These files come in as m2t's and there's no tape to capture from to "fix" the error.

One other comment....SHEER video is a very good, lossless, compresson scheme that transfers across platform and NLE. For example, to take edits from PC to Mac.

Bill - knowing you come from Vegas land and are now using Media Composer - what's your workflow process when you need to take audio out to something like Sound Forge or Audition to do noise reduction, sweetening, etc?

I do all my own post work and really don't want to have to learn a new audio editing app when I already have Sound Forge 9 and Audition at my disposal.

Cliff...
My workflow hasn't really changed all that much from Vegas.
1-export the audio from Avid as .wav
2-import .wav into SoundForge and process, save result as wav
3-import processed audio file back into Avid, drop it on A3 and A4 tracks, mute A1 and A2.

have a beer

Hey Bill,

Still trying my best to be open minded on the Avid way of working - those Vegas habits are not wanting to give up their ghost ;)

Since moving to MC, what pros/cons have you discovered in the the move? I'm really having difficulty giving up Vegas Pro even though it is readily apparent it cannot handle alot of clips on the timeline very well. I really need a solid work flow methodology that I know I can rely on - no matter if short form or long form work.

Some on the Vegas forums have stated to stay away from Avid in general due to its lack of innovation for the past few years, and not knowing much about Avid, I'm not sure whether to keep pursuing Avid MC or just throw my hands up and go to PPro, which still relies upon Cineform for serious editing. I don't have the income to support moving to an MAC/FCS so that's not an option for me.

The only thing keeping me interested in MC is its past reputation as a serious NLE for doing video post work - but since I do it all - both in production and in post, I want as streamlined - yet stable an app as possible.

wide open question, Cliff. In the broadest of terms, I think FCP may ultimately win out as far as an "industry standard". Oh well. some studios are already requiring FCP. I beleive FOX is mandating some kind of NLE software they developed on their own. I think that's rather a dead end. but, what do i know?

In the shorter, more pragmatic term, I'm finding each NLE I use, Avid, Edius and vegas has its pluses and minuses. each does its own thing. avid is great at file management, vegas is good at compositing, edius is rather simplistic, and derives strength for its simplicity. Since there's not much complex compositing I do, I rarely use vegas. Legal colorization is very, very important to me, and I don't trust vegas' cc tool or WFM.

So, I suppose it's a matter of matching the right tool to the right job. For feature length stuff, 7 hrs in the can kind of thing, Avid wins hands down. For straight cuts, quick and accurate CC, I go to edius.

I really felt like you did, Cliff, about Avid. I avoided it, any dabbles I took in the Avid direction were both frustrating and frightening. I had the good fortune to find myself in film school, where avid is taught and used. I've been using avid, with an instructor's help, for 3 months, now. I must say, having been showed a procedure and shortcuts, I am really liking the avid workflow.

Nothing is perfect, of course. Man i really MISS a format agnostic NLE. Both Edius and Avid require (malice) aforethought to use the right format. It is a pitra to realize I want to import something in 720p 30DF and I'm working in 720p 24DF.

I'd go back to vegas in a minute if they ever got their issues ironed out. I monitor for the latest update, hoping their color correction issues and crashes are resolved. Those things combined outweigh all the other advantages vegas once had.

It's an imperfedct world that DEMANDS compromise. It's up to me alone to decide where I want to compromise.

Bill - My mantra is the KISS principle - I want to keep it as simple as possible. One app for editing all video. I don't want to have to deal with multiple apps. I'm willing to deal with certain shortcomings of an app if the trade off is it's a solid application that doesn't have ongoing issues with editing m2t files like Vegas has.

I'm ready to buy - I'm still not sure which way to go. I've edited with both Vegas and Premiere Pro so I understand each of those apps - I've dabbled with FCP, and what little I have done with Avid and Edius, I'm uncertain. Problem I have is in order to really use PPro, you have to go to Cineform, which if using the 10bit version, makes for a pretty expensive NLE setup. I work in an NLE and audio editing app 95% of the time - I do virtually no compositing which was one of the reasons I chose Vegas - but I've been let down again by it and so have many others. There's no high end color space, and as you stated, the color correcting tools are not accurate.

As I see it, I want to use one app that is as broad based as possible so that I run into as few problems moving files back and forth as possible. I'm not flush to do a complete change over to a MAC, so that leaves all the other candidates.

Which one is now the question I need to answer. I have editing to get done and I'm tired of fighting Vegas Pro's inability to not crash if you look at it wrong.

Cliff,

I have Vegas and I have to say, right out of the gate, Avid made more sense to me. What you probably need is a good book on Avid. I've been using "Editing with Avid Xpress Pro and Avid Xpress DV." Granted I'm using Xpress and not MC 3. But it comes with sample projects and really covers the basics very well. It doesn't touch color correction.

Once you get the hang of Avid, you will really not want to go back, IMHO. As for Premiere Pro, you are going to have a harder time getting your project into an online system. A real plus for Avid... and to a lesser degree, FCP.

Also, Avid utilizes video card processing power, which Vegas does not at all. So you should see a significant performance pick-up with Avid.

Most of the issues with Avid are with being slow to support new formats, expensive hardware and detailed computer requirements (most computer problems are solved by using an nVIDIA Qaudro FX video card). But as an NLE itself, it's pretty solid. If a more consumer oriented system crashes, there will be customer blow back. But if Avid consistently crashes doing what it's supposed to do well, they will have Paramount calling them. Of course experienced Avid editors know workarounds and tricks. So I'm NOT saying the system is without faults, flaws and warts. But if it's stable enough for cutting feature films, it's probably good enough for what most of us here are doing, IMHO.

For those editing on Avid and audio sweetening then Pro Tools LE makes a lot more sense. ProTools will open your Avid timeline directly. For SoundForge you could try exporting an OMF (audio only, linked to timeline). I'm not sure which verions of SoundForge support OMF if any. OMF is like AAF whihc Avid also supports for export - these are metadata formats that can also carry the media within their file structure. I would suggest downloading the demo version of ProTools before anyone bought one - I don't use it on a regular basis.

Instead I do as much as I can within the Media Composer (and Xpress Pro) interfaces. You have a bunch of reasonably sophisiticated tools for audio including the legacy AudioEQ whihc is fairly limited but allows you to basic EQ and the more sophisticated AudioSuite which includes some very handy filters lifted from ProTools - including speedchange with pitch adjustment, 4 band EQ, Reverb etc...

These will never take the place of an audio program - for a start you can only get down to frame resolution rather than hundredths of a second, but it may help for many quality issues.

HTH..

John, this is probably a really stupid ?, but I've never used Pro Tools. Can LE open MXF projects or does the source media have to be OMF? Thanks.

FWIW, I dislike pro-tools. It's extremely cumbersome and user unfriendly. I use Tracktion as my DAW, or even Vegas.

FWIW, I dislike pro-tools. It's extremely cumbersome and user unfriendly. I use Tracktion as my DAW, or even Vegas.

Your reasoning Bill is why I don't even want to consider ProTools. I already have a full plate as it is - even without my learning the basics of Media Composer in what little spar time I have.

But audio is critical from what I have learned so far and want to use my existing tools since I already have a pretty good grasp of how they work. From what I can tell, Sound Forge can't open AAF or OMf files, so that isn't looking too promising. Audition is the same. And my understanding is - OMF is an antiquated way of dealing with audio, instead AAF being more acceptable - this is what I have read up to this point and willing to be corrected if needed.

Seems like alot of hoops to jump through to work with Avid - it's beginning to make me reconsider going any further with it - expensive and not as seamless for a one person shop.

I may consider the Cineform route for Vegas Pro - About tho throw my hands up in the air and just stick with Vegas Pro and deal with it's glitches. At least I know what to expect so far with it. Then again, maybe I"ll just get a bloody mac mini and Final Cut Express and work my way through that route - at least I'd have a mac to edit basic projects on and I'd learn how the Final Cut methodology works.

Must be friday...

As a standard practice I always do the following:

Put a 1 frame audio beep (or any high pitch sound) exactly 2 seconds before your first frame on your timeline on all audio tracks. The export those tracks into wave file. Make sure you stay consistent with sample rate. Put a 1 frame flash on your video track. Export to AVI or Quicktime. The 2 pop is a safety for maintaining sync.

Then you can take this into any audio program you want. Pro Tools, Sound Forge, Audition, etc. This is how they've been syncing tracks for more than 75 years.

Pro Tools is not for the faint at heart but is used by the vast majority of sound shops. It does way more (like syncing mid tracks) than most people need.

I hope this helps, David

David - thanks for your hints on Avid workflow.

I guess my reasoning behind all this is there is the one camp that states, "This is the way it has been done - why change?" Yet from someone on the outside looking in - it seems inefficient for the one man band. In contrast, when you look at an app like Vegas Pro - what the specs say it can do is very forward thinking in an NLE workflow - and when it works - it is VERY efficient for the kind of work I do. All work is done on one timeline - video editing, audio work, titling and color correction. It's not perfect, but it has been an interesting workflow to experience first hand - especially when needing to do quick edits under short deadlines.

Maybe I'm still not seeing the overall reasoning behind Avid's (OFTM - Apple's or Adobe's) way of doing things other than it established itself in Hollywood early on and so is deeply entrenched in how things are done - separate apps performing a specific function done by a specialist. The way media is consumed now, it appears very monolithic and inefficient. Something inside me says why does it have to be so? Or is it the fact that Vegas has been over sold and simply can't handle serious editing sessions without puking?

This is what I'm trying find answers to.

...inefficient for the one man band. In contrast, when you look at an app like Vegas Pro - what the specs say it can do is very forward thinking in an NLE workflow - and when it works - it is VERY efficient for the kind of work I do.

This is what I'm trying find answers to.

I think think you've answered your own question. If Vegas works for you as a one man shop, it doesn't make you any less of an editor as someone on Avid, FCP, or Adobe PPro.

In all honesty it is pretty simple, you edit, make deadlines, and bill the client. Go with what works for you. I think all too often editors are looking for some sort of vindication that they're editing on a better platform than others. As long as your clients are happy then you're a success.

So Avid is probably not for you. No big deal.

I second Davids remarks. Find the solution that works for you, allows you to achieve your goals quickly, efficiently and keeps the client happy. Whichever NLE meets those needs.

Don't get caught up in a 'pissing contest'.

Each APP came out of a specific skillset that was generated by industry needs. AVID was developed for cutting FILM. It had to deal with HUGE piles of media, and had to generate frame accurate CUT LISTS for negative cutters. This is the legacy of AVID - just as the legacy of VEGAS is an audio tool background. Not good or bad, just something to understand and acknowledge.

In the AVID workflow world - IE:Studio and Brodcast - people in one room are working on the audio, people in another the effects, people in this one are cutting the video together. They all need to share and access media, and it needs to work super smoothly. THATS why AVID is designed the way it is. It's not specifically designed to be a 'one man shop' sort of app. That's why FCP got a jump in the mid-range boutiques. So be it. AVID has adapted - too little too late??? Who knows. Certainly if you want to work in STUDIOS then you better know AVID. Want a job in local Ad agency? Best to know Avid AND Final Cut.

But plenty of one-man shops make a decent living with Vegas, or Liquid or Premiere or whatever.

Cliff,

Your first post said that you saw some efficiencies with using Avid. But it seems that as you've gotten more into the program, you're seeing some inefficiencies as well and are reconsidering making the switch.

No problem. Perhaps there are answers to your Vegas problems. Even rolling back to version 7 maybe? It seems that 8 has had more problems than people expected.


Richard,

A friend of mine who's an Avid editor has not been able to find a job here in Studio City once her TV show got canceled. Apparently, quite a few cable TV shows have switched over to FCP. I watched four documentaries two weeks ago. All were made in LA, only one was cut on Avid (it looked the best but also had the biggest budget, BTW). But FCP is making real inroads in Hollywood. The latest crop of people coming out of school are really starting to force the issue for other reasons: FCP editors are now ubiquitious, young and relatively cheap.

David - thanks for your hints on Avid workflow.

I.

2 pops were around long before Avid. This is an approach regardless of your platform.

2 pops were around long before Avid. This is an approach regardless of your platform.

David - I have run into one problem using this method. Because Avid cannot nudge audio at a sub-frame level, you will often find audio can be out by as much half a frame when going to and from audio suites (especially if they run stuff through an analogue mixer). If you control the process it's probably not an issue. In my case, I found returning the file as a broadcast wav solved the problem.

A lot of audio programs out there support OMF wrapped audio - this is a much easier way of getting say 8 synced audio tracks from Avid into your preferred audio program. OMF doesn't support MXF audio, but I'm pretty sure the export module allows you to transcode to wav on the fly.

I would only suggest learning ProTools if you have a lot of time on your hands.

John,

I don't disagree with you that OMF is a tighter and less cumbersome (for multiple tracks) export than just wave. But every audio house I have worked with likes the 2pops anyway for safety on sync. Also now Avid 3.0 supports broadcast wave format with time stamp data which gives tracks everything back to the original source if you record in BWF. On OMF, sometimes I've had issues going to Pro Tools LE that doesn't have the Digitranslator plug. (Digidesign's gotcha plug in), but use OMF with 2 pops. I was just stating that 2pops allow you to go into anything including older legacy audio programs like Sound Forge or older versions of Pro Tools. which don't support OMF. It is a good work around that has served me well.

And in my opinion, is anyone going to notice if your final mix is a subframe, 1/50th to 1/100th of a second off in sync?? I doubt it.

Cheers.

FWIW I've seen some diabolical lip sync that is only out 1/50th second.

I was just pointing out the OMF and AAF export methods for those not familiar with them. Just so they know there is an easier way than exporting 4 - 8 stereo pairs of wavs :) BTW there is a bug in the current release on OMF export of audio from an MXF project... in some instances the export will convert all the clips and then fail and ask you to use AAF export. In previous releases, audio was correctly converted to wav for OMF export (provided you selected that option in the export module)

I always put a full countdown on all my audio exports for sync purposes anyway. I like broadcast wave as a return format and it seems to work fine from OMF exports (ie it preserves the original timestamps) and gets you back perfectly in sync.

The other problems I've observed with audio export and return are drift (when an audio house works at a slightly different sample rate to you) audio can drift out of sync over longer clips so everyone should keep an eye out for that one.

This is not specific to Avid, just general audio sync issues all editors should be on the lookout for.

I'm still debating the switch from Vegas Pro 8 to...?

All of a sudden, the same project I had been editing came to a crawl for no apparent reason - nothing had been done other than closing the project and opening it the next day - now the project crawls and this is with clips and titles only.

An uninstall and reinstall didn't matter - so, with an Acronis backup image of a virgin install of XP and all my other apps, I was able to reinstall without having to spend hours installing them one by one. But the project is still sluggish - Whiskey Tango Foxtrot????

Problem is - this is an ongoing issue now for Vegas Pro 8 - one moment it works fine, the next, it's throwing a temper tantrum - I've about hit my limit with the program. I'm losing money on this edit and none too happy about it - but I can't seem to come to a firm decision on whether to go Avid or Adobe. My needs are straight forward as listed earlier:

Cuts
Dissolves
Basic Titling
Color Correction
Ability to edit audio with apps other than ProTools

My BIGGEST concern still is audio editing integration for using tools like Noise Reduction filters, EQ, etc. Not trying to be dense, but I'm still not grasping the concept of how to work with audio in other tools that aren't Avid's.

Other than the occasional DVD being burned, having that integrated isn't a show stopper for me. I want to use the tools I already have and just get a stable NLE app.

Also - the one thing that is in Avid's favor is that I work with x64 XP Pro on both my desktop and laptop and from what I've learned, Media Composer 3.0 will install and run on that OS version - and be able to utilize more RAM as compared to PPro.

Cliff,
Describe your typical workflow as far as audio sweeting goes. What is it you are likely to do with audio, once you have cut a piece together. (DO you wait untill the cut is done, and then work on your audio?)

Hard to recommend your best course of action at this point. I hate to even UPGRADE a system when I'm in the middle of a project, let alone change NLE's - so I'd be tempted to say work through what you got on Vegas till this project is done.

Cliff,
Describe your typical workflow as far as audio sweeting goes. What is it you are likely to do with audio, once you have cut a piece together. (DO you wait untill the cut is done, and then work on your audio?) I typically lay all clips on the timeline and then go in afterwards and do the audio tweaking

In Vegas - I can right click on the audio track and tell Vegas to send a copy of the audio track to the audio editor of my choice. Once in either Sound Forge 9 or Audition 1.5, I can apply the necessary tweaks as needed (Audition's Noise Reduction tool is the best I have ever used), save the file as a wav, and Vegas immediately replaces the original audio track of the clip with the edited updated wav file - very efficient workflow and non-destructive since I can always go back to the original video clip's audio track if needed simply by doing a ctrl+z.

I've tried this methodology with MC3 and my workflow is slowed down dramatically due to both apps I use not supporting AAF or OMF. That means having to render out a wav file which takes substantially longer compared to using Vegas Pro with either app I use - and this is beginning to become a major contributing factor in my decision.

What little I have worked with in MC3 I like, but with the reading I've done on ProTools - I can't seem to find any accurate info regarding how to perform noise reduction. And it also seems kind of a kludge to bounce back and forth between MC3 and ProTools - When VP8 is working right - it's lightening fast when needing to go out to either audio editing app I use.

Anyways - Just sharing my experiences with regards to this whole ordeal.

Cliff,

Have you tried using Vegas 7? (You can have 8 and 7 installed on the same machine w/o any problems.)

It sounds like your editing needs can be done in just about any good NLE, but Vegas also has the audio capabilities for your workflow.

Hi Cliff - I guess a better question may be what are your primary audio needs

eg - do you need fader control? or is it just noise reduction filtering etc.

A few guys over in the Avid forum are raving about Sonar Cakewalk (I've never used it), but it does support OMF V2 according to the search I did on their website. BTW most professional audio applications support OMF/AAF export/import and broadcast wav files. The fact that Sound Forge and Audition don't should give you a clue. I'd evaluate Avid and see if you can live with it (probably FCP as well) - then you're not "locked" into any format. This is especially important for gettign long form projects mastered externally.

Remember using AudioSuite and the original audioEQ tool you can accomplish a lot within the Avid interface. You may find it does everything you need without going to an external program.

Hi Cliff - I guess a better question may be what are your primary audio needs

eg - do you need fader control? or is it just noise reduction filtering etc.

A few guys over in the Avid forum are raving about Sonar Cakewalk (I've never used it), but it does support OMF V2 according to the search I did on their website. BTW most professional audio applications support OMF/AAF export/import and broadcast wav files. The fact that Sound Forge and Audition don't should give you a clue. I'd evaluate Avid and see if you can live with it (probably FCP as well) - then you're not "locked" into any format. This is especially important for gettign long form projects mastered externally.

Remember using AudioSuite and the original audioEQ tool you can accomplish a lot within the Avid interface. You may find it does everything you need without going to an external program.

John - my primary audio needs have centered around noise reduction capabilities - Adobe Audition's Noise reduction tool is fast and very good at cleaning up audio as needed. Sound Forge isn't quite as good, but it's very efficient at other options I might need from an audio editing app and it DOES support Broadcast Wave files.

I was able to get past a pressing deadline I had on a project and can now give Avid a more accurate test to see if this is the direction I need to go.

Out of curiosity, I tried doing scene splitting with HDVSplit to see if there was some sort of truncation of the Long GOP structure of each clip due to the nature of SONY's HDV capture utility. Sure enough, I did a batch scene split of my clips (132 in all), and MC imports every single one of them.

FYI for those who are thinking of Leaving (Las) Vegas Pro 8 for Media Composer.

Just wanted to say thanks for this info.
I obtained a hard drive full of clips dig'ed w/ Vegas. Avid would not import them.
After running them through HDVSplit every one of them imported perfectly.

MPEGStreamclip is the easiest I found to fix the problem as I don't have to split or re-compress the footage.

Once loaded after the message about bad data save as Ts file and rename it to m2t and avid loads it fine after that.