Hi,
for those that don't know how rolling shutter problem looks,
please take a look at this clip.
U should see big white squares when somebody flashes with photo camera.


www.bobansky.com/rolling_shutter.wmv

it really isn't that bad. flash is flash, and I doubt they will notice it. what were
settings? gain, shutter?

Shutter 300, with no gain, but full iris opened

First thanks for taking the time to post Slobodan,
I have been using sony for a long time back when the V5000's were hot and feel my Sony 400L cameras are the best I have ever used at weddings but I cant use a cmos rolling shutter for weddings so now I am thinking of Panasonic

it really isn't that bad. flash is flash, and I doubt they will notice it. what were
settings? gain, shutter?

I agree Scott and I thought this was a dead subject by now. I just did a wedding Saturday with 2 photogs and lots of flashes. Unless you know aobut what to look for, they just look like ordinary flashes. Annoying.

Bruce

Since this subject has come up yet again...

I read somewhere on here a while ago that a very effective/easy fix in post for this (and I really wish I could find the original thred!) is to simply overlay a semi-transparent white screen for the frame or two that's affected. Then it looks like perfectly normal flash (i.e the whole frame is white for a millisecond). As always, knowing what to do is the key (thank you again DVinfo community!). It only takes a few seconds to do - unless I guess you're covering a big event with hundreds of flashes going off.

Some poeple seem very irritated by this rolling shutter effect, others (like me) generally just accept it and learn to ignore it. That's OK, we're all different.

Since this subject has come up yet again...Some poeple seem very irritated by this rolling shutter effect, others (like me) generally just accept it and learn to ignore it. That's OK, we're all different.

Well I'm glad it's come up since Im in the middle of trying to make a purchase decision between a Z1 and a Z7 and here is my thought of the problem. It looks more like a problem with the video than a flash. At least with an non-rolling shutter camera the flash covers the whole screen, that looks like a flash, but with the rolling shutter and just a portion of the screen is white it doesn't look normal, it looks like an electrical interference in the video.

Just my 2 cents.

....trying to make a purchase decision between a Z1 and a Z7

You are kidding us right?

hahaha, no he's not. I am trying to get him to buy my Z1 so i can buy a Z7 :-)

By the way, here is a great example of CCD flash on a Z1

Well I'm glad it's come up since Im in the middle of trying to make a purchase decision between a Z1 and a Z7 and here is my thought of the problem. It looks more like a problem with the video than a flash. At least with an non-rolling shutter camera the flash covers the whole screen, that looks like a flash, but with the rolling shutter and just a portion of the screen is white it doesn't look normal, it looks like an electrical interference in the video.

Just my 2 cents.

Because of this rolling shutter issue, my decision falls between the XH-A1 and the Z7. Also low light is another question i have between the two cameras, but thats mentioned on a different post.

I have seen Z1 footage and I am just not happy with its quality.

I have been shooting Z1 for the last 4 years, and it's quality is great. The A1 is a great camera as well. It is a workhorse, durable and very dependable, as is most
Sony gear.

Yeah, the quality of the picture on the Z1 is good, but i think for the price, the XH-A1 produces a better image than that Sony. I read that the image quality between the A1 and the Z7 are quite close though, so really its a question of if you have the money for the Z7 and if you need/want a larger screen, memory card recorder, and interchangeable lens. But that's all my opinion and others can easily disagree with me.

I won't disagree with you on the A1. I shoot with one at work, and at first I
didn't like it, but after tweaking image settings, I have grown to really like the camera!
It really is the best HDV camera on the market for the price, hands down.

Hold on guys Sony will be releasing a new camera in September which is around the same size as the Z7 and not cmos but CCD.
I heard this from a person inside Sony and a JVC rep they are also releasing a new camera around the same time

Um, i think it is the EX3, and will be at a HIGHER price point than the Z7.

I hope you are wrong Robert, cause I just put down for a Z7...even though I really wanted CCD (all the other features of the Z7 seem perfect!).

In regards to the earlier rolling shutter example, if you had your shutter speed at the same speed as your frame rate the effect is quite diminished. The 300 shutter speed means you get those little white bars that look nasty, a move even speed means you get a larger portion of the frame exposed and it looks a lot better. (mind you this is all hearsay from my research I have been shooting on FX1s and Z1s since they came out...skipped the V1 cause they looked nasty).

I'm with Ron on this one. I shoot a lot of weddings and part of the excitement is the flashflashflash of the paparazzi as the couple cut the cake, enter the room, dance together.

One of my wedding this year was shot on the EX1 and the 'half-exposed' flash frames just annoy the pants off me, whereas the Z1 handles the situation in a far more aesthetically pleasing manner.

Here's a couple of frames from the EX1. When a lot of such frames occur together it's horrible. OK, a flash is just a frame out of 25 that second, but even so, the Z1 wins this competition.

tom.

Um, i think it is the EX3, and will be at a HIGHER price point than the Z7.

there will be a new camera release dont get me wrong i am busting to buy the Z7 but mainly doing weddings i just dont know if it's the correct choice

Hi,
for those that don't know how rolling shutter problem looks,
please take a look at this clip.
U should see big white squares when somebody flashes with photo camera.


www.bobansky.com/rolling_shutter.wmv



I cant get the link to work

Rob

I cant get the link to work

Rob

It is working!
Try to click over link with a right mouse button, and "save link as:"

Tom, that looks like shit. damn. i can't see plunking down that kind of money for
a camera that performs like this. I am going to ask my Sony rep if indeed a
new CCD camera is coming out.

Um, i think it is the EX3, and will be at a HIGHER price point than the Z7.

nope, the EX3 is essentially identical to the EX1 save for the form factor and interchangeable lens mount.

Tom, that looks like shit. damn. i can't see plunking down that kind of money for
a camera that performs like this. I am going to ask my Sony rep if indeed a
new CCD camera is coming out.

The next CCD camera from Sony will be the PDW700 - already in the hands of many broadcasters who are working the Olympics. If there is another one coming then its being kept VERY quiet and I'd be surprised if there is another new camera this year.

$30,000. WAAAAYYYY out of my price range.

Of course it looks pretty horrible if you film a police car or ambulance (say) that has electronic flashes on its roof - you get given the same 'partially-exposed frames' of course.

Thing is no two frames are alike - the over-exposure can be the top third, the bottom half. the top three-quarters - you name it.

But I doubt very much if Sony will revert to CCDs over this CMOS special. It affects my wedding films greatly, but most other folk will be unmoved by my complaint.

tom.

the only solution to this is the new Panasonic HPX-170. OR, for Sony to sell the
compact flash recorder separate, which is what I really want!

the only solution to this is the new Panasonic HPX-170. OR, for Sony to sell the
compact flash recorder separate, which is what I really want!

The HVRMRC1 will be made available separately in around November I believe. Not 100% on that at the moment ...

wonder what they will be priced at? $1500 a pop is my guess. it would cost me
slightly more than that to sell my Z1 and get a Z7.

Slobodan i checked out your footage you posted camera flashes and the Z7 dont mix at all looks like crap.

This is why the Z7 is not selling that well in Sydney i dont know about the rest of the world but alot of people here have cancelled orders due to this issue.
What a disappointment this is supposed to be a professional camera i would understand if they use cmos in consumer cameras but in bloody PRO CAMERAS.

Go back to CCD i will pay Sony cut corners use cheaper material and still charge a fortune IT IS ALL ABOUT PROFIT nothing more nothing less

No disrespect to anyone that owns a Z7 i guess for documentary and corporate usage it's fine but if anyone thinks that camera flashes look fine you are in denial


Rob

Slobodan i checked out your footage you posted camera flashes and the Z7 dont mix at all looks like crap.

This is why the Z7 is not selling that well in Sydney i dont know about the rest of the world but alot of people here have cancelled orders due to this issue.
What a disappointment this is supposed to be a professional camera i would understand if they use cmos in consumer cameras but in bloody PRO CAMERAS.

Go back to CCD i will pay Sony cut corners use cheaper material and still charge a fortune IT IS ALL ABOUT PROFIT nothing more nothing less

No disrespect to anyone that owns a Z7 i guess for documentary and corporate usage it's fine but if anyone thinks that camera flashes look fine you are in denial


Rob

The flashes do look fine Rob and no I am not in denial.

Bruce

Depending on the situation, the flashes to me look fine sometimes and look horrible at others. A single flash, as I have seen in some clips, look okay as a single frame passes by most viewers almost un-noticed. When you have rapid fire flashes, then that is where I'd get worried with the camera. Other situations which look horrible on this camera, are electronic flashes found on cop cars or ambulances, as have been mentioned.

So pretty much, I wouldn't say someone is in denial if they say flashes look fine, but this is an issue which shouldn't be ignored by sony. As far as I know, the Z7 is a first generation camera in its class, so this problem gives the camera lots of room for improvement in my opinion, so hopefully, sony will address it in the z7 replacement (Z8?).

The flashes do look fine Rob and no I am not in denial.

Bruce

Come on Bruce do you really think they look as good as a CCD chip camera (not even close)

I showed the footage to a couple of people that dont even work in the industry and they noticed it slow the footage down and then please dont tell me it looks fine

Sorry it's just a huge disappointmet

Rob

Come on Bruce do you really think they look as good as a CCD chip camera (not even close)

I showed the footage to a couple of people that dont even work in the industry and they noticed it slow the footage down and then please dont tell me it looks fine

Sorry it's just a huge disappointmet

Rob

CCD and CMOS have their strong and weak points.

I'd prefer to have a CMOS camera when shooting an event (im an event videographer) with lots of bright lights in the background as it has no smear. I'd use a CCD camera when I know I will have lots of camera flashes to deal with.

Yes, i know you were talking directly to bruce, but really, people have different needs so if he likes the camera the way it is, let him be.

CCD and CMOS have their strong and weak points.

I'd prefer to have a CMOS camera when shooting an event (im an event videographer) with lots of bright lights in the background as it has no smear. I'd use a CCD camera when I know I will have lots of camera flashes to deal with.

Yes, i know you were talking directly to bruce, but really, people have different needs so if he likes the camera the way it is, let him be.

I never said it is a crap camera it just does not suit a wedding videographer in your case Ryan it's fine.

Rob.

i have the chance to buy this camera for under 5K, and sell one of my CCD Z1s,
should I do it, given I shoot 99% weddings? some of that stuff
looks like tape drop out (flashes)

i have the chance to buy this camera for under 5K, and sell one of my CCD Z1s,
should I do it, given I shoot 99% weddings? some of that stuff
looks like tape drop out (flashes)

Don't do it scott read past posts i've done so much research trying to convince myself it's the right camera for weddings but it's not. I've contact guys using it for weddings and they are disappointment.But it's your call

Rob.

I can buy it and keep the CF recorder :-). I have read and read, and I am NOT
going to give sony that much money for a 12x lens, crappy rolling shutter and
slow as hell AF. I will take a nice long look at the new Panasonic this fall.

Come on Bruce do you really think they look as good as a CCD chip camera (not even close)

I showed the footage to a couple of people that dont even work in the industry and they noticed it slow the footage down and then please dont tell me it looks fine

Sorry it's just a huge disappointmet

Rob

you have GOT to be kidding me, right?
CMOS/CCD....if you can't see the advatntages/disadvantages in each, in their own right, your'e kinda doomed as a "successful" videographer, ya know?
There really isn't a lot of room for delimiters in this biz. If you have some(delimiters that is), get some therapy b4 it's too late for you to make a career.

This is why the Z7 is not selling that well in Sydney i dont know about the rest of the world but alot of people here have cancelled orders due to this issue.
What a disappointment this is supposed to be a professional camera i would understand if they use cmos in consumer cameras but in bloody PRO CAMERAS.


Rob, if the HVRZ7 isn't selling in Sydney can you point me to a dealer that has loads of stock on the shelf and is complaining that they can't sell them?


i have the chance to buy this camera for under 5K, and sell one of my CCD Z1s,
should I do it, given I shoot 99% weddings? some of that stuff
looks like tape drop out (flashes)

Scott, why don't you rent one first and try it for yourself? IMHO, using the internet for research is great, but making significant purchase decisions based on forum posts isn't the best approach.

Surely actually getting your hands on a camera and giving it a try in your specific application is the way to go.

you have GOT to be kidding me, right?
CMOS/CCD....if you can't see the advatntages/disadvantages in each, in their own right, your'e kinda doomed as a "successful" videographer, ya know?
There really isn't a lot of room for delimiters in this biz. If you have some(delimiters that is), get some therapy b4 it's too late for you to make a career.

Bill
So what is your main type of work Bill

[QUOTE=Aaron Lucas;895292]Rob, if the HVRZ7 isn't selling in Sydney can you point me to a dealer that has loads of stock on the shelf and is complaining that they can't sell them?


Aaron who said their complaining they cant sell them i know there not selling a heap of them

Don't do it scott read past posts i've done so much research trying to convince myself it's the right camera for weddings but it's not. I've contact guys using it for weddings and they are disappointment.But it's your call

I've done 3 weddings with the Z7 and it's great. Flashes are no problem... I don't understand your comments?

[QUOTE=Aaron Lucas;895292]Rob, if the HVRZ7 isn't selling in Sydney can you point me to a dealer that has loads of stock on the shelf and is complaining that they can't sell them?


Aaron who said their complaining they cant sell them i know there not selling a heap of them

Robert, you're right, no one said that they were complaining. If anything, there isn't enough stock to sell, as opposed to there being low demand.

I've done 3 weddings with the Z7 and it's great. Flashes are no problem... I don't understand your comments?

You have slowed the footage where lots of flashes have been going off you don't notice pixelation at all

You have slowed the footage where lots of flashes have been going off you don't notice pixelation at all

Come on Robert - sharp images and satisfied customers rule my world - not analysing pixels under a microscope for "Chromatic Aborations" and all the rubbish some people seem to babble about on the forums...

You have slowed the footage where lots of flashes have been going off you don't notice pixelation at all

Robert do you even own a Z7 or are you just going by what all the forums tell you? Cause i do own one and have used it for weddings with no problems.
Some of the issues people come up with seem to me to be excuses to not buy this camera rather than just admit they don't want to spend that much.

Bruce

at this point it is more of a want, than a need. I really enjoy shooting with paid
off gear and having no credit card debt. I have tried to get a demo to try and
I don't think I can get my hands on one quick enough. I may order one
tomorrow and shoot with it saturday night, if it sucks, I can send it back.

I just picked up my brand new Z7 and it is awesome (upgraded from an FX1)!

The rolling shutter...now...i have yet to do flash tests...but...straight line tests and 'wobble' tests...you really really have to push it around, and even then it really isn't noticable when you play it back....nothing like the videos from the HV20 people have posted. Sony's Exmor or whatever process does a really good job at removing slant and wobble...now just to test it on the flash...

but even so it is a really really nice camera, feels great, heaps of control nice sharp image, no focus problems...well auto focus is not great but hey this is a manual camera...and i probably need to do the flange thing...

really happy so far....so good...

No focus problems...well auto focus is not great but hey this is a manual camera...

That's the problem, as a wedding videographer you need a camera with a good auto focus... "Run & Gun" style, no time to sit and manual focus.

The focus isn't that bad...at full tele in pretty nasty low light it takes about 1 sec to focus on stuff that is close to background colour...z1 is about 0.5 to do the same, but in decent light it is pretty sweet.

I do weddings and generally use manual with auto assist for when i really need it. With manual I can do focus pulls and the like.

enjoy your new gear! post some clips soon.