Hi everyone - I am no pro and learning as I go and I am appealing to the experts who may be able to help me. We have been doing a 3 camera shoot at our church for sometime - 2 of the cameras are the Canon XL1S. They both have the very same issue.

The focus, whether in manual or auto, gives me grief. sometimes what I believe to be motion blur and sometimes soft... I just can't get any consistency in crisp focus no matter what I have tried. The stock lens 16X IS 2 IS WHAT IS ON BOTH CAMERAS.

I have considered purchasing the 16X full manual lens in hopes the problem would go away after a lens change but hate to spend the money if that is not the issue. I sure know I have a lot to learn!

The filming we do is 98% from a tripod with no panning - once they are recording we don't move the cameras. At least for our services.

Please keep terminology simple for me in any reply because otherwise I won't know what your talking about! I am the most experienced at the church so I am the best to deal with even though I know so little.

Thanks in Advance
JL Payton

Hi J.L., welcome to DV Info Net.

Your first step should be to make sure that the cameras are NOT using the "Green Box" or Easy Recording mode on the power dial, because focus in this mode is always auto, even if the lens is switched to manual.

Before spending money on new lenses, I think you should consider having these camcorders serviced by an authorized repair facility. Unfortunately the XL1S model is no longer supported by Canon's own factory service center, but if you contact the Canon help line at 1-800-828-4040, they should be able to help you find an authorized service technician in your area.

Having them serviced could resolve some potential internal firmware issues that might be causing your focus problems, and it's less expensive than buying new lenses. Hope this helps,

Thanks for the reply. Both cameras have been serviced. Also I film in the M mode on the dial.

Thanks,
JL

J.L., how long have you had these particular cameras? Also, what's the make and model of the third one?

We have had them about 1 year.

The 3rd camera is a loaner from a church member, I believe it is a Sony 1000? MiniDv We haven't ben using this one long as our other church owned Sony went out. I am not having any trouble w/ the Sony

Thanks Much,
Jamie

The reason I ask is because they're getting a little long in the tooth. The XL1S model was discontinued years ago and just recently it reached the seven-year mark where the manufacturer is no longer obligated to provide factory service.

My usual advice for folks who run into trouble with these cameras is to upgrade into something newer (much, much newer). I realize that isn't always an option financially. If you consider the cost of the two 16x full manual lenses that you were thinking about buying, plus the resale value of those two cameras, you could probably transition into a make and model of recent vintage (the XL1S qualifies as ancient vintage, no offense to those who are still using it though).

For example, consider the Canon GL2 or Sony VX2100 as possible replacements, among other contenders.

Getting back to your particular problem, can you give us some more details about your exact shooting scenario?

As you're shooting in M mode, can you tell us what aperture and shutter speed you're setting to get correct exposure?

What sort of distances are we talking about here? Village hall or Westminster Abbey?

Lighting? Natural/ windows and / or artificial and if so, what kind?

Feed? ie To tape or taking the composite video out to er, what?

Digital Zoom - off?

16:9 - off?

Frame mode - off?

ND filter - off?

LP mode - off?

What are you viewing the final product on and how is it getting there?

Is this problem new or has it been there since you started using the cameras?

Your mention of "motion blur" is a bit of a concern, unless your church services are considerably more energetic than the norm?

Do you have a manual for the XL1s?

Just one or two Q's but it should give us something to work with.


CS



PS Hi, CH

Hi Chris S. - Thanks for your help

As you're shooting in M mode, can you tell us what aperture and shutter speed you're setting to get correct exposure?

Not right off hand - the cameras are at the church!

What sort of distances are we talking about here? Village hall or Westminster Abbey?

1 camera is about 75' the other is 25' away.

Lighting? Natural/ windows and / or artificial and if so, what kind?

Someone came in before my time and installed professional lighting.

Feed? ie To tape or taking the composite video out to er, what?

If I understand the question I record to the minidv, on 1 camera I also record to hard drive on the computer

Digital Zoom - off? Can't remember

16:9 - off? OFF

Frame mode - off? not sure

ND filter - off? OFF

LP mode - off? OFF

What are you viewing the final product on and how is it getting there?

upload into the computer and edit, make dvd's and watch on tv.

Is this problem new or has it been there since you started using the cameras?

Always been the same problem w/ both. I am sure it is me...my inexperience!

Your mention of "motion blur" is a bit of a concern, unless your church services are considerably more energetic than the norm?

Energetic, sure thing.

Do you have a manual for the XL1s?

Yes, I have read it and went over several different settings trying to learn.

The issues with focus are NOT 100% of the time, it will go from a beautiful shot - clear...then the issue then back to clear... throughtout the recording.

Hope you can advise me as we can't afford new cameras right now and I am sure it is me not the camera!

Now we're getting somewhere.

Just to make sure, can I take it that Auto Focus is also off? (Just re - read your original post - disregard that question)

The only thing I can think of that could do this is either the Auto Focus hunting (tho' it can't if it's off) OR the lens dropping focus as the camera warms up (seen that happen with my XL1s).

The latter tends to be pretty much a one off event tho', once corrected it usually stays that way.

Hmm, ok, lets try another tack.

You are obviously new (-ish) to all this, can I take it that your immediate predecessor was NOT having this issue? Have you checked any of the resultant DVD's to see? (If, indeed, you had a predecesor?).

Ah, a thought! You mentioned you don't pan once you start shooting, yes? Is anyone/ are you doing any zooming?

There are two issues if you do/ are.

The first is that the XL1s lens cannot focus and zoom at the same time, it's one or the other. This means that if you focus a scene at wide out and then zoom in, the focus will go out, then in, then out etc.

The second is that the only way to keep the lens focused during a zoom is to first zoom all the way in, focus, then zoom out. You can then zoom in/ out to your hearts content as long as the subject focused on at the beginning does not change their/ it's distance from the camera.

It is a right royal pain but you get used to it once you know.

Please tell me you're zooming, as I'm rapidly running out of ideas!


CS

You are obviously new (-ish) to all this, can I take it that your immediate predecessor was NOT having this issue? Have you checked any of the resultant DVD's to see? (If, indeed, you had a predecesor?).

Nobody really before me as they only used a handheld Sony before to film. I was there when these cameras were purchased.

Ah, a thought! You mentioned you don't pan once you start shooting, yes? Is anyone/ are you doing any zooming?

No, don't touch anything once filming has begun.

It is a right royal pain but you get used to it once you know.

Please tell me you're zooming, as I'm rapidly running out of ideas!

It is odd to me both cameras do the same darn thing! At a distance of 75' what would you say I should have the settings at? I appreciate your help, at least that your trying to help!

JL

OK, settings.

Dial: M or T

Shutter: 1/ 120th (1/60th if light low)

Apeture: Whatever it takes.

Focus: Manual

OIS: Off

Record Mode: SP

Gain: -3

Fire up the camera, zoom in full, focus, zoom out to frame, shoot.

You may have to re - do the focus after 5 to 10 minutes but once that's done it should hold for ever.

At both 25 & 75 feet the picture should be as clear as a bell (well, as clear as an XL1s ever is) and stay that way.

If it is (clear), then it's not, then it is, with no operator intervention whatsoever, on two cameras, I'd start doubting one's sanity quite frankly.

Tell me, can you see this on the camera screen or only once ingested into the pc?

Just so that a silly assumption isn't obscuring a relevent fact, how is this data getting into the pc? Firewire? From one of the XL1s'?


CS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, settings.

Dial: M or T I USE M

Shutter: 1/ 120th (1/60th if light low)

Apeture: Whatever it takes.

Focus: Manual I USE MANUAL

OIS: Off

Record Mode: SP ALWAYS SP

Gain: -3 USUALLY USE AUTO WILL TRY THIS

Fire up the camera, zoom in full, focus, zoom out to frame, shoot.

You may have to re - do the focus after 5 to 10 minutes but once that's done it should hold for ever.

At both 25 & 75 feet the picture should be as clear as a bell (well, as clear as an XL1s ever is) and stay that way.

If it is (clear), then it's not, then it is, with no operator intervention whatsoever, on two cameras, I'd start doubting one's sanity quite frankly.

Tell me, can you see this on the camera screen or only once ingested into the pc? USE EXTERNAL MONITOR

Just so that a silly assumption isn't obscuring a relevent fact, how is this data getting into the pc? Firewire? From one of the XL1s'? FIREWIRE

Thanks Chris! I have to go to the store now - be back in a bit

JL

Meanwhile, back at the church..............

Tell me about this professional lighting.

Is it incandescent (ordinary lightbulbs/ spots) or some form of gas discharge (flourescent etc)?

If the latter, it would be worth trying the shutter down at 1/30th, tho' if this was strictly a lighting issue I'd expect you to be getting some form of banding in the image.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Meanwhile, over in Fairfield, CS is minded of that classic line from "Jaws",

"I think we need a bigger boat!"

Anybody got any ideas?


CS

4 huge spots up high, a bank of 12 spots below those ...all halogen. Also there are a series of lights head level that wrap around the room (ordinary light bulbs) - except behind the stage... then we have down lights a series of 4 clusters of 3 lights each that I know are halogen... That's what I remember. I will be at the church tomorrow, I will write down better information. I know there is no gas discharge lighting and no florescent.

I am going tomorrow to play around with the camera settings and see what happens with your tips. I sure appreciate your time helping me.

I know we have had professional tv crews in our sanctuary multiple times..they always set up their own lighting and change ours a bit when they film.

Thanks,
JL

I was thinking about purchasing the new Canon VIXIA HF10
High Definition Camcorder. It is affordable and I thought it might give me high quality end product - maybe it is not good enough... You tried this one? It is a 1ccd chip but Canon says it gives the quality of a 3 ccd... Any thoughts on this? They run about $1100.00 cheaper online on Amazon though... I need very high quality footage.

Thanks,
JL

Well, sure don't sound like a lighting thing either.

I think that I'll wait for the next exciting episode tomorrow before making any further suggestions (not that I actually have any at the moment).

Catch you then.


A somewhat baffled,


CS

Hi J.L.,

I really don’t want to deny Chris the chance of solving a great mystery here, but...

As a former XL1s user I’d say you’re on the right track mothballing them in favor of HD cameras. Even without the problems you’re experiencing the XL1s just isn’t as crisp as others in less than ideal lighting. When I shot 2nd camera with a GL2 at a church launching a new system last year the guy running the switcher kept asking if there was something wrong with my eyes. Said that compared to the DVXs the GL2 was soft. Well, of course it was soft by comparison! As Chris S. alluded earlier, that’s just how the older Canons look when recording wide to medium shots. I shot an event using my XL1s with a guy using a Sony PD170 a while back. We tried to match them up as best we could but his images blew mine away.

Sorry I can’t answer your question about the VIXIA, but I believe just about any HD camera is going to deliver a much better picture. Of course, HD presents its own set of considerations if you’re going to DVD...

Now, back to the mystery: Say, Chris....shot in the dark here, but what about back focus? Could it be out on both cameras?

:)

I was just about there with sommat basically amiss with both cameras, and my next questions were going to be (when I found your post):

1. Can we have a timeline from purchasing the Canons to now, with regard to this problem?

AND

2. Do you have a provenance for these cameras if they were not purchased new?

The fact that they've both been "serviced" is interesting, as, if it's been recent, it won't have been by Canon. So when and by whom? (and even if serviced by Canon, unless there was a fault log attached to each camera, no fault would have been found due to its nature, even then a long shot due to it's sheer intermittant nature).

Does the "whom" know what the heck they're doing?

I too am starting to think that, in the absence of a resolution to this, the "finance commitee" get their collective heads together and think about replacing the pair of XL1s, as, if faulty, a repair to both is an utter waste of money.

What I cannot figure out is why it's so darn intermittant.

As for replacements if this chase is abandoned (haven't quite yet) hmmm, interesting question, especially knowing how strapped most of the church groups are (ok, some of them, anyway).

To be quite frank, the XL1s could (apart from the 16X lens) be easilly replaced by a brace of second hand Panasonic NV - GS300 "dinky cams" or similar, heck, the pictures infinately better and all they need do is shift the tripods!

Bit of a bugger if they really need that big zoom tho', once you go past 10X it all seems to get a bit pricey.

Whatever, tomorrow is another day and let's see what it brings to this particular conundrum.

Thanks for your input Lorinda, glad to have some backup here!


CS


PS: Blimey Lorinda, what time are you working to? You must be into serious "midnight oil" type stuff!

You’re the second person on this board to tell me I’m scary, Chris. Gosh, I don’t feel scary...hope it’s not a psychotic thing. ;)

The zoom factor! Totally forgot about that, but you’re so right. When I was trying to help the church guy find a replacement for the GL2 the zoom problem (lack of on more inexpensive models) kept cropping up.

Let’s see...yup, it’s after 1am here, just right for getting some serious work done. I haven’t seen a sunrise in quite a while. :)

I think what we're grappling with is that the description of the problem matches the effects of shutter dropping below 30fps (motion blur) and focus hunting (OOF for a second). Neither "should" happen if all that stuff is turned off. Logic says:
a) It is not turned off
b) It is turned off but a camera failure or automatic calibration is causing it to turn on briefly and most people don't experience it because most people don't use camcorders in this fashion
c) It's something else and if we saw it, we might have other ideas

Can you post some frame grabs from your video editor of normal and problem shots?

I do what you do every week but with a professionally designed live production setup. You are making due with camcorders. If we're honest with ourselves, a shot that briefly goes out of focus or has motion blur really may not matter. Sounds like you are not re-imaging so it may not even be distracting. It's good we strive to produce perfection, that's the pressure we work under. But in the final analysis, does it matter enough to spend $$$ on more consumer camcorders that will fail in a couple years under this kind of use? Just some thoughts.

I think what we're grappling with is that the description of the problem matches the effects of shutter dropping below 30fps (motion blur) and focus hunting (OOF for a second). Neither "should" happen if all that stuff is turned off

So call me silly but what is OOF?

I am going to the church all day to test film under different camera settings, etc trying what I learned here, etc. But what is an OOF!

I will post my results as soon as I can..

Thanks,
JL

OOF = out of focus. Just more videographer shorthand is all.

(what's the "L" stand for? Lee?).

In all the excitement yesterday I somehow completely missed your post #15 where you mentioned the HV 10.

I'm a little bit lost, as in an earlier post you mentioned "we cannot afford new cameras right now".

Do I take it the HV10 was for your personal use and not part of the Church project?

No doubt, the HV 10 will give you some stunning picture quality, but may I ask what you're going to do with it once you've got it?

(Not trying to be nosy, but ramping up to full 1080 HD, if that is the intent, is a very expensive business to do properly).

Shall leave that subject dormant till I have more info.

I'm really curious to hear how the camera audit went today, get back to us as and when.


CS


PS: As I'm here, can I give you a tiny bit of advice with regard to posting?

Simply c & p'ing from a post into your reply makes the story really hard to follow and takes up a heck of a lot of room.

If you feel it is necessary to do so, click on the blue "Quote" button on the post you wish to quote all or some of, and it will load it into your reply. When posted, it highlights the quote in blue to indicate it is, indeed, a quote.

Overdoing it is a bad habit that seems hard to break once started (IMPO), as you'll discover when trawling DVinfo forums.

Hope you don't mind me saying?

Yes, my name is Jamie Leigh (pronounced Lee)...

The Canon VIXIA HF10 High Definition Camcorder
I thought may work for shooting at the church... I would have to sell the other cameras to purchase 2 new VIXIA HF10 High Definition Camcorder
but they are only $800-1100.00 max where if I were to get new Pro Cams I would be spending several thousands... I just didn't know if they were too "consumer" to do the job right.

I spent 12 hours at the church today filming, making test segments, etc. writing notes on each - all the adjustments whew... All of your tips that everyone gave really paid off, especially you CS - The video quality is finally excellent. I ended up at 1/75 and F 4.8 plus went through the menus, etc... I tried so many scenerios it isn't funny! I can't believe finally success!

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You for the advice! I couldn't have done it without you!

I am just so excited....and tired!

Now we have to figure out the audio problems coming off the soundboard. I do help with audio but it is not my thing... That's another problem entirely though..

I am going to get some sleep as I have church in the morning and quality film to produce! I am actually looking forward to filming now, feeling more confident, and a new excitement to boot! God Bless you all for being here for me.

Goodnight,
JL <--- my dad gave me the nickname by the way.

Way to go!

Glad we could be of service.

Enjoy, and get back to us if there's anything else DVinfo can help you with.


CS


PS: There really is nothing like a home team win to really make one's day!

I will... You were such a life saver. I will always come back to this board if the need arises!

Everything went smooth today filming - I think the audio problem is fixed as well. It will sure be nice to have a nice final product for a change.. That's what happens when there is no one to teach you though.

You hit a home run!

God Bless,
JL

It's positive feedback like yours that makes this so worthwhile.

May the force be with you!


CS

I ended up at 1/75 and F 4.8 plus went through the menus, etc... I tried so many scenerios it isn't funny! I can't believe finally success!


What solved the problem? Putting the dial on M (manual mode) and setting the shutter to 1/75 and iris to f4.8 would prevent the motion blur (due to a shutter speed below 1/30). What about the problem that looked like focus hunting? Was the AF (auto focus) switch on the lens actually set to on?