Edit: I know I misspelled "Aesthetics" on the topic. I tried to change it, but I can't. I really can spell... honest! :)

This forum runs on the vBulletin 2.3.0 software. It's a great forum program. But I gotta admit, DV Info is, by far, the ugliest vBulletin forum I've ever seen. It is hard to discern quotes and you can't even post image files. Perhaps it is time to tweak the settings a little?

For an example on the quoting, cut and paste the following URL into your browser:
http://207.168.10.82/oc/vbulletin.jpg
(This forum does not even give me an option to make a clickable link that I can see... usually is a URL button or similar in the post creation page. I had to guess that I could put the vb code and make it work. No documentation!)

The forum on the bottom with the nice looking quote is actually vBulletin 2.2.9. There is no question about which is the quote and which is the post. Here you can only tell by little << and >> symbols.

vBulletin also allows an option to either upload an image to the forum server for permanent display or display an image on the forum page itself that is hosted on another site. This could be useful from time to time. I could understand that the administrators wouldn't want people uploading porn or whatever, but I don't think that would be a problem as it's not on the other vBulletin sites I have seen.

Lastly it might be a good idea to have "avatars". These are pictures that go under the name of whoever is making the post. It would be great to see the faces of people here and also helps to quickly identify who is making a post. These would have to be uploaded and stored on the forum server, but vBulletin allows for that as well. Size restrictions can be set and it really doesn't slow down the loading of pages.

Anyway I know this is not my forum to set, but I think it could be a little more user friendly and less bland. I am not sure if these options are not set because the administrators don't think we could use them responsibly or what. But trust me, once you implement these features you'll never want to go back.

not much change would go along way. This is the best forum on the internet. I have gone through several other sites and even though they look cool the content isn't there. Everyone always returns with criticism like cool or sweet. Nothing of practical value. This site is all about value.

Rob:D

Well obviously we are adults here and we're not looking for flashy graphics or insane colors. But the quote thing and other minor changes really enhance the forum experience. Just 'cause we're old doesn't mean we have to be less functional. Actually I don't think we're THAT old. (This coming from a guy who turns 30 in a day). The big ol' database of information should be easy to peruse as well as contain all of the relevant info.

Personally, I enjoy the fact that this forum is clean and light and fast to load. I appreciate that more than anything else because I come here to DVInfo to just to get info about... um... DV.

I like that it uses light colors that make it easy to read, and that there are no excessive graphics and colors that disrupt the ease of reading.

you've probably never met Mr. Hurd. I have several times,
and he is a very nice and very polite gentleman. I am a crude foul mouthed rocker by comparison. He is COOL as ICE!!!

That said, this is HIS list. He is the one who's built it from the ground
up to be one of the best. I truly believe that in his quest to provide
*high quality* information, he feels curse words, and yes, even crude
words, can be omitted without the quality of the information
disseminated being effected. He probably feels strongly that cursing and trash talking only serves to devalue the opinions of those who use them
and in the end devalue the list as a whole.

Even though I use words everyday that are unprintable here,
I have to agree with Chris as he has provided me a forum of information
that is almost impossible to match in *both quality and decorum*.

I don't think the colors of the forum should be changed, but my quote example I provided would really make things nicer and easier to read. Can anyone give me an example as why it would not? I am not demanding picture uploads or avatars or anything like that. The quote thing would be first on my list of enhancements.

There are always room for improvements. I hope suggestions are not frowned upon here. Suggestions are a good thing! I offer suggestions.

I won't speak for Chris, but I like his board just the way it is. The reason so many people use it, is precisely because it lacks the "features" you mention.

Another problem some people fail to consider is that not everyone has DSL or a broadband connection. Why eat up valuable space and bandwidth to display images of little value? If the image is valuable it is easy enough to provide a clickable link as a number of subscribers have done.

Another very important feature of this board is that it is difficult harvest e-mail addresses. Its not impossible, its just requires a few more manual steps than other boards would.

If you think a boards with all those features is better, go start one. No one here will fault you if you do and may even offer you sincere encouragement.

As far as Chris and censorship goes, Chris allows a lot of lattitude in posts. I daresay that other boards would have long ago deleted AK, yet Chris has not. I think that speaks volumes about Chris.

Frankly, I think juvenile, vulgar speech adds little to content and more rarely, intelligence. It has its place, but so far not here!


P.S. It is also nice that you can discuss such subjects here too.

For what it's worth:
I have to remind myself sometimes at the calibre of people on this site because it's simply amazing. The vast amount of knowledge, ideas and suggestions that are in this forum is first and formost what this site is and should be about, in my opinion. I love the fact that there are not images plastered throughout a thread. Or signatures that are 3 times the size of a contributor's post. Or the distracting avatars.

Since I've been a member here I've found that 99.99% of the people on here are courteous, friendly and quite helpful. I think adding all these "features" would detract from all of the above. If I felt I really needed to see what so and so looked like I could easily email them and chat with them privately and ask for a picture. Sure if the opportunity arose and I could meet some of the people here I'd love to. But I think the main thing that drives this site is the knowledge and information. I think anyone really into what this site caters to will be more than happy with the amount of information here and not worrying about a certain "bell or whistle". Sorry for rambling.

matt

Curtis

Suggestions are always a good thing! And thanks for making them.


This forum runs on the vBulletin 2.3.0 software. It's a great forum program. But I gotta admit, DV Info is, by far, the ugliest vBulletin forum I've ever seen.

Heh. Well, form follows function, doesn't it? Seriously though, I'm about ready for a change in our color scheme at the very least.


For an example on the quoting, cut and paste the following URL into your browser: http://207.168.10.82/oc/vbulletin.jpg

I agree there is a big inconsistency on the use of the quote function which we need to work out.


(This forum does not even give me an option to make a clickable link that I can see...

Sure it does... this page shows how (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/misc.php?s=&action=bbcode).


vBulletin also allows an option to either upload an image to the forum server for permanent display or display an image on the forum page itself that is hosted on another site.


We've discussed this before in the past. I tend to be very conservative with about image upload privs. What we're currently doing is uploading images which are sent to forum moderators first for review and approval. This is very much a hands-on board, as you can tell.


Lastly it might be a good idea to have "avatars".

Again, discussed before in the past. I've thought about avatars for the forum moderators, but the idea was pretty much voted down. If we did avatars at all, they'd be real photos to match our real names... head shots, or the like. But so far there hasn't been a great demand for this, and some of us have openly stated they do not want this feature because they view it as board clutter.


Anyway I know this is not my forum to set, but I think it could be a little more user friendly and less bland.

It is your forum, though. It's everybody's.

We don't do smilies and never will, but I'm not opposed to adding a few more features into the board software. When vBulletin 3 is released, we'll be sure to implement those changes and additions into DV Info. Meanwhile, if we're all lucky, we might get a face lift in the form of at least a new color scheme before then. Hope this helps,

We don't do smilies and never will, but I'm not opposed to adding a few more features into the board software. When vBulletin 3 is released, we'll be sure to implement those changes and additions into DV Info. Meanwhile, if we're all lucky, we might get a face lift in the form of at least a new color scheme before then.

I think a better, higher-contrast color scheme would be very good. I also wouldn't mind having the ability to post images. I realize this opens the possibility of people putting big-annoying animated .gifs in their signatures, but I think folks around here are mature enough to avoid antics like those. A good way to deal with that though is to make a rule about the maximum size (both pixels and kilobytes) for a signature image. Something like 140x40, not bigger than 2.5 KB or something like that. Anyways, I just think that being able to post pictures would be a useful ability, and it would diversify the ways people can help each other here.

The only change i would like, is an ad url button placed when on the writing/posting page.

I think if the code allows for it, there will be a lot less errors around with people having to manually put the scripting in.

Zac

It looks like your working on changing the quotes so I am pretty much a happy camper! Now if only that would happen when the "quote" button is pressed! I totally forgot about smilies, and I don't really care about those. If someone needs to indicate that they're being sarcastic or saying something tongue in cheek, then :) works fine.

I didn't know that the vbcode was turned on. Maybe a link to that page from the writing/posting page?

As for images and avatars, they were low on the priority list, but I definitely agree that they'd need to be real pictures of the actual member. Otherwise they are useless, in my opinion.

One of the positive attributes of this forum, in my opinion, is that members are faceless. By that I mean that the absence of personal appearance has a normalizing effect on general discussions. Fat or skinny, pretty or homely, pierced or unpierced, bald or curly, light or dark, glasses or sharp-eyed, tattooed or unblemished, big ears or small, everyone is just what they type here. (Recall that old cartoon whose caption read, "On the Internet nobody knows you're really a dog.")

Of course you -can- see some of our moderators here (http://www.dvinfo.net/network/wranglers.php). (We is one ugly crew...ain't no avatar candidates there!)

Don't you think we should adopt the highly pleasing color scheme at AVS forums (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/index.php)?

I think a better, higher-contrast color scheme would be very good.

From my modest GUI designing experience I happend to find this color scheme very pleasant to the eye.
I can spend a few hours reading posts in here without my eyes becoming "ilegally" red... just my thought.

It´s not the prettiest forum... but it sure is functional.. and does load very fast (compared to many others)..

I too like the colour scheme....very gentle on the eye. I kind of like Futuristic Metallic Pastel colour scheme. Nice! But us Europeans are a bit more 'artisic' so perhaps its not to the liking of those in the States. But I like it and very easy to read with for long times. Never get any 'hot colours' that make your eyes go all funny like other sites.

But regarding changes...Hey if the machines not broken why try to fix it!

Sometimes we dont need to try and re-invent the wheel!!!

<<<-- Originally posted by Christopher Hughes : But us Europeans are a bit more 'artisic' so perhaps its not to the liking of those in the States. -->>>

Oh, Lord... Christopher, you're on your own. Get into a defensive posture and prepare for the Yank backlash. ;)

My opinions are not to change the color scheme- it's perfect. Very soft and subtle. As you say, 'pleasing to the eyes'.

Regarding avatar headshots....I for one think it's a good idea. I can't count how many times I simply get mixed up with names on here. I feel a simple low kb headshot would help the ease of associating the member. I for one am better at visual associations rather than by name. I really don't feel that bias will emerge due to physical appearance- after all this forum is about DV...I could care less if your fat, skinny, tatooed or whatever. What counts is the information- and the avatar headshots would just visually aid in learning and remembering our crew.
You could even reduce the possibility of abuse by limiting head-shot avatars for "major player" and above.

Oh and Chris, I happen to be an artist and graphic designer first and foremost even before DV. Being European or not has nothing to do with artistry. :)

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : Don't you think we should adopt the highly pleasing color scheme at AVS forums (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/index.php)? -->>>

I certainly don't want to bemoan that webmaster's choice of colors, as it's their discretion on how the site looks and everyone has their own opinion. That said, it looks like someone ate a box of Crayola's and threw up!

As for this site, I like the colors, but would not object to another "conservative" color, as long it didn't make me wear sunglasses!

I love photographs, but my fear would be that it would be a burden on the server having 4500+ members posting jpegs and gifs. I think offering a link is the best alternative.

Signature jpegs/gifs wouldn't be a very good idea either and I agree that those unfortunates with dial up could suffer (as would those who have to look at them!).

An easier method of posting urls would be great, as I can never remember the exact way it goes (I now have it written down beside my computer!).

No changes to the site wouldn't kill me either!

My two cents.

The deal with AVS forums, no matter what you think of their color scheme, you've got to be impressed by their numbers: 2.4 million posts, 73,000 members, over 1,000 of whom are currently online. Very fat stats there.

If we did avatars, they would most likely be limited to the moderators, and members with very high post counts.

Is'nt there an option in your User cp to change the colour scheme of the forum?

Personally this is a great forum. I find that by far this is one of the easiest to navigate around and by far has the best content and people. Thats what makes it great.

However there is no harm to updating the default colour scheme.

All the best,

Ed

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : Don't you think we should adopt the highly pleasing color scheme at AVS forums (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/index.php)? -->>>

Tongue in cheek, I presume :-)

I'm not one of the big dogs so I hope I'm not speaking out of turn here, but I side with those who like the kennel just the way it is. And as an "unfortunate" who is stuck with dial-up for now, I appreciate the speed at which this site loads.

One last thing: this forum has a great feel to it that others lack, IMO. It reflects the good natures of its kennelmaster and moderators.

Chris, I don't mind what you got now, but the AVS would be OK. Good contrasting colors are always a good idea, but I'm not sure about the hot pink.

The colors are pretty much cool the way they are. The more contrast, the harder the actual posts become to look at for some reason. I like the light background. If the color were to change I'd recommend only changing the part that is lavender now (the darkest color on the page). But that matches the DVi Community logo. But if it were to change, then maybe a slightly darker hue, or blue or a light gradient, if possible. The cool thing about vBulletin is you can create tons of different color schemes, and the user can select which one he/she sees in his/her user control panel.

The AVS forum is just insane. Not only does it look horrible, but those member stats are ridiculous. I moderate a forum (PHPBB) with 10,000 members and it can be a nightmare. I think the key is not to have auto-registration turned on. The AVS forums also have too many individual forums. I can understand the need for seperate forums for Mac, PC, whatnot similar to the way it is here, but that number of forums is way too much. It's almost like each different subject has it's own forum. Very hard to manage, I bet.

I like the colour scheme. Nice blend of similar tones. Don't change it.

And do not allow graphical sigs. They just take away from the content of the message.

I remember reading something like this at a game arcade when I lived in Texas....

'Cursing is a failed attempt by a weak mind to express itself forcefully'.

this site values content over all else. And the colors are easy on the eyes. Too much contrast is not good for your eyes when sitting in front of a monitor for long periods of time.

(Hint, I write software and one of my specialties is human interface design, grey and softer colors put less strain on the eyes even if they seem boring).

Rest assured that any changes we make here will be announced ahead of time and will be somewhat gradual in nature. We're not adopting the AVS color scheme (that was indeed a tongue-in-cheek comment), and if our own colors do change, it'll be in a subtle way... I agree very much that softer colors are much easier on the eyes (there's a lot to read here and we want you to stick around). I'm thinking we might shift from a lavender tone to something a bit more towards light blue. These are, of course, monumental decisions which require careful forethought and planning...

I'd like to give a few comments on the site if I may.

As far as the colors, they don't bother me. Eh, they could be better, but I'm not losing sleep over it.

I agree 100% that stupid smilies and avatars, or anything else that dumbs down this forum would be a step back for this community. Along with requiring full names and not handles, I think this is the #1 reason Chris has been able to keep the serious professionals and newbies in, and keep the immature riftraft out. This is one of the few forums I've seen that doesn't have any "trolls".

There are of course a few things I think would make the forum more functional, without the added costs of loading times and "kiddie features". Chris, take these with a grain of salt.

1. I agree with the whole bold quote idea. I've always had a hard time reading quotes on this forum. Again, I don't lose sleep over it, but it's a bit of an annoyance.

2. Hotlinked URLs. This is one of the few VBulliten forums I've seen that doesn't automatically hotlink the URLs. I understand that you can insert the [url] tags to make a hotlink, but most people aren't aware of this, and it's a pain to have to copy/paste.

I have a small vbulletin forum and I'm pretty sure both of these two settings can be changed with a quick click of a button in the forum options page in the admin CP.

That's about it. Other than that I think this is one of the greatest forums on the internet right now.

About the color scheme: you can upload many different styles for users to choose from, so if they like the default (I do) they can keep it, and if they want something different they can choose that instead.

http://www.vbulletin.com/manual/styles.html

dude i luv color. no prob. i think it creates a certain "style" if you stick with it long enough and certainly this color has 'STUCK' with the DVI community. if it were any other color i'd probably get sick and wander where my beloved DVI went.

Agreed.

This site is a gold mine of good information.

Most of the participants are artists or aspiring up the endless ladder ;)

It seems to me that each artist has his/her own opinion, otherwise
they wouldn't be an artist.

This "plain grey" site works perfectly for me when it comes to delivering information.

I'm sure we could argue web design all day long . . . no thanks :)

(Unless you're a professional colorist and want to reveal secrets)

I've only skimmed this thread really quick, so forgive me if I talk about something that has already been discussed.

Anyway, I'd like to see the ability to add images directly to the posts themselves turned on via the [img] tags. That would make troubleshooting preferences and other things much easier. Check out my post here:

Clicky Here (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&postid=102479#post102479)

As you can see, it would be nice to be able to see the images in the post itself instead of having to click on the hyperlinks and switch back and forth between browser windows/tabs to read the text and see what it is referring to.

The only reason I can see NOT to have images in posts would be to protect 56K'ers from lengthy downloads. So perhaps there should be a size limit requested (and added to the FAQ). If someone exceeds this limit and posts an excessively large picture that requires horizontal scrolling on a monitor set to lower resolution, then a Moderator could just edit the post so it shows a hyperlink instead. Images are part of the internet, and I think 56K'ers are used to waiting for them to load, just as long as they are not TOO big. Also I think the members here are mature enough not to post images that don't relate to the discussion at hand. Whaddya think?

Also, the "QUOTE" button seems to be broken. When I press it, it does not add the "quote" tags to the quoted text. I usually just add the tag myself.

As for the forum colors, they are fine and dandy by me.

Thank you for taking the time to write this down, Ted.
Basically the reasons why this is not allowed are the following:

- Bandwidth requirements, as you've pointed out not everybody is on speedy connections
- Bandwidth usage on the DVInfo servers and associated costs
- If you can add pictures people tend to introduce these and thus increase the noise level which puts further work in our laps
- Althought pictures can help out when describing things it can also greatly clutter up a thread

The final call as always is with Chris which will probably tune
in shortly.

Thanks!

Personally I really appreciate the speed and simplicity of DVinfo.net, even though I always access it over high speed connections. I don't mind clicking on links which open in separate windows either. With any reasonable screen resolution you can arrange them for easy reference.

Kudos to Chris for sticking with his convictions and keeping this site speedy, uncluttered and informative. It's truly refreshing in this day of annoying popups, flash animation and banner ads.

I think one thing we sometimes fail to recognize is the international mix of the membership. Cable modems and DSL lines are becoming almost a norm in the US, but elsewhere, high speed internet connections are still a luxury. In deference to the international membership, I think the restriction on images will need to be maintained for a few more years.

There are two ways to store images, local and remote. I thought
you wanted to store images on our servers. You can drop that
remark if you are talking about inlining from another server
(ie, remoting). That removes my mark about our bandwidth
consumption but adds the annoyance of:

1. those free hosting that a lot of people use have a maximum bandwidth usage a month which gets eaten up FAST when a lot of members JUST view the thread

2. when that bandwidth is up or the site is removed or the image is removed we all get broken images in the threads which clutter it up as well

If something is really important to illustrate Chris has been known
in the past to host the images on his servers and post a link to
it in the thread.

And that quote button is really very rarely used on this forum
(thank you for that) since most people can follow to whom and
what is being replied. Or small sections are "quoted"

<<<-- Originally posted by Jeff Donald : I think one thing we sometimes fail to recognize is the international mix of the membership. Cable modems and DSL lines are becoming almost a norm in the US, but elsewhere, high speed internet connections are still a luxury. In deference to the international membership, I think the restriction on images will need to be maintained for a few more years. -->>>

Jeff, from this side of the pond, it's really baffling how anyone in the States can still be using dial-up. I've been using affordable, dedicated, high-speed access for about four years now...and I don't know if dial-up is even in use here anymore.

I wonder how it is in other parts of the globe.

Here in CenTex, unless you're actually in a town of 20,000 or so, high speed is simply not available. I'm in the country, south of San Marcos and about eight miles east of New Braunfels, and there are no plans for DSL out here in the foreseeable future. I have to rely on StarBand, which is a satellite uplink, and it manages roughly ISDN speeds down and 56K up (on a good day with clear blue skies). Very much behind the curve down here. Central Texas is sometimes even more third-world than Canada.

Ditto for Idaho. And here I am less than twenty miles from Micron Technologies and not really in the country anymore. I have to rely on my cable friends in town when there's something (like music videos) from folks on this forum that I want to see.

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : Very much behind the curve down here. Central Texas is sometimes even more third-world than Canada. -->>>

Hey!
Huh?
Why if I wasn't drunk, I'd take offense to that remark. In fact, I'd drive down there to negate the Canadian stereotype, but my sled dogs probably couldn't take the heat in Texas.

Dylan, you mean to tell me your igloo has cable modem service?

Fo shizzle!
The only real issue is sometimes the moose walking by catch their antlers on the cable going into the house and pull them down.
Stupid mooses.