Hi everyone -

I'm hoping to get some ideas here. I have a Zoom H2 and two irivers with some GS lav mics.

I got the ceremony audio covered, but I'm not happy with the audio I'm capturing at the reception (specifically, the music).

I generally have the Zoom on top of the PA speaker - with a lav mic dangling in front of the tweeter. Speeches are coming out fine. However, I want to avoid patching into the DJ's board, because I'd like to have more control with the audio.

Is dangling the lav a good idea? Or is there something better? Do I need a better mic (I assume I do).

What do you guys do.

Thanks!

I would either place a mic the appropriate distance in front of the speaker...or you can go from board output, to a small mixer (that you would purchase), to the receiver/camera which will give you more control. Unfortunately I don't know one to recommend, but I'm sure someone can chime in.

-JS

The best audio I've received from receptions is the dangle in front of the speaker, but only after a port out from the mixer - if you have the 30 minutes to work that to perfection, your audio will be absolutely pristine.

Aside from capturing good audio, the only parts you really need, I feel, is the speaches. Attach a wireless lav to the groom and hope (or ask) that the toasters stay close, then add the client's legal, purchased music to a track.

Is dangling the lav a good idea? Or is there something better? Do I need a better mic (I assume I do).

What do you guys do.

Thanks!Why are you using a lav mic with the H2 when it has 4 mic capsules built in?

Put the H2 in 4ch mode, set the side delimitter switch to "L", set the internal recording volume to about 95. I say 4ch mode because the front will get the DJ's speaker and the rear will get some good crowd noise - each on seperate tracks for you to blend in post.

Place the H2 about 8-12 inches from the speaker just catching a bit of the bass (position it mainly on the tweeter).

You'll have to watch the recording volume to make sure it doesn't clip. The H2 recording lights will "flash" when this happens.

All DJ's and their equipment, volume, etc are different. Again, just raise or lower the record volume until you find the "sweet" spot when the lights don't flash anymore. Start out with about 95.

the lav dangling in front of a DJs speaker IMO isn't really a great idea. First most DJs really pack on the volume, 2nd the lav isn't made to respond to that kind of pressure. 3rd, at that close distance I am surprised you're getting anything useful at all without major distortion.

I have tried many different solutions over the years. Here's the one that works for me and has for about the last 3 years.

I use an AKG 300/CK93 hyper capsule for my on camera mic. That get room ambience and the upper frequency levels. I use a Sennheiser E604 drum mic with my plugin transmitter on a mic stand about 4 to 6 inches from the speaker and down a bit from the center. I set the transmitter to minus 6db and the hyper to minus 10 (both settings on either on the transmitter or mic) and set my levels on the camera to record at about minus 20 so when the DJ YELLS into the mic it doesn't redline.
The audio I get from this setup is awesome and requires virtually no post work. Perhaps some LOWERING of the volume when the DJ really turns it up.

The drum mic is made to take the pressure and level that are produced by the loud music.
Works for me!

Don

I use a Sennheiser E604 drum mic with my plugin transmitter on a mic stand about 4 to 6 inches from the speaker and down a bit from the center. DonDitto here. That e604 is quite the critter for this task. I just mount it on a mic stand along with the H2 (for a continuous backup).

I gave up long ago trying to tap into sound boards. It's just too "hit and miss" for me as I only have about 3 minutes to set up before the B&G appear. It's really kind of nice knowing I'm not dependant on another vendor to do my job.

I am planning on using a direct box at tomorrows wedding and getting a line from the DJ, I have yet to try it, I picked up a RCA to 1/4 cord that will hopefully give me everything I need to connect to all DJ, had the XLR and 1/4 cords, just not the RCA.

I plan on using the line as one channel, the shotgun as the other and have my Sony PCM-D50 for interviews and backup of audio when possible.

I by no means am saying my way is the way, I am trying to figure this out.

I will say that the audio from my second XH-A1 with only the stock mics has been used a few times when all else failed. Luckily it has only been a short piece of audio that has to be edited in, but was glad I had it.

I will agree with all the others that you never can have enough audio.

I am still amazed at all there is to video, if people only knew..

Denny

Ok, here's my easy way to capture audio at a reception.

First off I rarely go through the DJs board anymore, as most don't really know how their boards really work, or what feed I can get. Also they have control over yor sound. So if they accidentally turn down or worse, off your record out channel, then you're csrewed.

I prefer to be in total control of my picture and audio, whenever possible.

So first off don't use the 1/8 mic or line in, in the H2. It stinks, as the onboard internal pre amps are lousy and will get you in trouble. The H2 is bet used for its onboard mic (4 of em).

So that being said, place your H2 on a mic stand and set it to record in either 2 channel (stereo pair, record from front and back of the H2) or 4 channel (all individual capsules, record from front and back of the H2).

Set the H2 to record at least at 100, as the wiring is screwy in the unit and the built in ore amps. If you go lower than 100 it won't affect your audio in the least. So you have to rely on the external gain. Set this to L (low).

Set the H2 (recording at 100 and Gain to L (low) on a mic stand and place it slightly off center with the front of the H2 facing the PA stack (90 degree mic pickup) and the back of the H2 (120 degree mic pickup) facing the crowd.

If the H2 clips you will see the red led light blink (from both sides of the unit). but f you are clipping at 100 and L gain, then there's not much you can do, as lowering the record volume doesn't effect anything below 100 via the onboard pre amps.

Now you can also use the H2 and a wireless handheld mic, and mount them both on a mic stand, and record to your H2 and also send a wireless signal to your camera to use for backup/sync audio on tape.

Besides using the H2 and wireless handheld, I also may take a board feed, just in case, if ones available.

BTW, here's an old pic and setup of how you can use one mic stand and 2-3 devices at once. http://lvptools.blogspot.com/2008/03/here-is-example-of-one-of-my-bare-bones.html

I use a similar setup for my R-44, except I use a (clamp on) music sheet holder and velcro to secure my R-44 to my mic stand. I cna setup and move this rig, anywhere I wish, as there is no cabling involved.

I recently purchased am Edirol R-44 (4 track Sd recorder), whcih rocks.
I mount the R-44 on a mic stand and run 2 Rode NT5 cardiod mics on a PA stack (one micing the tweeter, and one micing the Woofer). Then use either an At822 (stereo mic) fed into Channels 3-4 facing the crowd to record ambient music and crowd reaction. By doing this I get great live sounding audio, that is all perfectly synced on SD card. Then I upload the audio form the SD card to 4 channels of perfectly synced audio to be mixed with my video.

Now while the R-44 setup might be out of your reach for you. The H2 setup and wireless should work nicely and get you much better audio than using a lav. Which BTW, using lav mics for any loud situations is not recommended, as the mic capsule can't handle excessive SPL levels,a dn will always clip on you. Which as you probably know, when the H2 clips, it's totally unusable as it records a chirping sound which can't be fixed in post.

With the Zoom, I put the Gain on low - and I don't get much distortion - so for speeches and such, it's fine.

I had thought about putting the H2 on a mic stand in front of the PA (as described here), but I had two concerns. 1) will the DJ mind? 2) Worried about people dancing and knocking it over. Has this happened to anyone?

With the Zoom, I put the Gain on low - and I don't get much distortion - so for speeches and such, it's fine.

I had thought about putting the H2 on a mic stand in front of the PA (as described here), but I had two concerns. 1) will the DJ mind? 2) Worried about people dancing and knocking it over. Has this happened to anyone?
The answer is no and no.
Never had a DJ complain or even look at me funny.
And there were a few situations where I might have been worried about the mic stand getting knocked over (because PA stack was real close to dance floor), but had no issues either.

If you really wanted to you could boom the mic over or under the PA stack and then aim the Zoom recorder appropriately (hanging upside down from above like a boomed mic or right side up gong underneath the PA stack). If you needed to you could clamp on an extension arm to the PA stack and attach the H2 this way. There's always many ways to attack a problem. As long as you have the tools to do it and am able to think outside of the box when needed.

Either way for the spoken word or micing musicians (strings etc.) the H2 rocks. When micing a loud PA system, it has worked well. But there have been few instances where the unit just couldn't handle the volume being pumped through the PA system.

The H2 is good, but ain't great. But hey what do you expect for a $200 recorder.

This is why I have other units as well besides the H2 (Edirol R09, Marantz PMD620, Edirol R-44). Different units for different situations.

same as Michael. I've never had a DJ say anything about the mic in front of the speaker nor has it ever been knocked over. Came close a couple of times though.

Actually I think more DJs would prefer NOT to have you ask to plug in to their board. Some just don't know how and others are afraid you might do damage to the equipment while others are just plain uncooperative.

I prefer to control my own audio. Too many Djs just don't know how to run the board and think they need to run at level 11 when 7.5 will do.

Don

Now you can also use the H2 and a wireless handheld mic, and mount them both on a mic stand, and record to your H2 and also send a wireless signal to your camera to use for backup/sync audio on tape.



Thanks Michael - just went out and bought a mic stand. Will try this out.

You also said to mount a wireless mic. I have the Azden WMS-PRO Wireless Kit (not the greatest, but works for some things). How are these mics (both the handheld and lav)? If I had it next to the H2, would it be okay?

Thanks Michael - just went out and bought a mic stand. Will try this out.

You also said to mount a wireless mic. I have the Azden WMS-PRO Wireless Kit (not the greatest, but works for some things). How are these mics (both the handheld and lav)? If I had it next to the H2, would it be okay?
Nick, I can't say that I'm too familiar with the Azden wireless. I do know that they are a lower end middle of the road type unit.

I work with a Samson Micro 32 UHF wireless system (not the best but works very well for me as well), and have never really had any serious issues with the units.

If I had it to do all over again, I would have gotten Sennheiser units, as the Samson's don't have the best construction.

Since the Samson is UHF I have many different frequencies in which I can select if needed.

The Azden WMS-PRO system that you mentioned is VHF, which can have problems as you only have two selectable frequencies. So if their occupied, you're out of luck.

I would recommend looking into another wireless (UHF based), just for reliability and usability standpoint. Or else forget about wireless entirely and focus your efforts on recording your audio digitally via audio recorders (with built in mics, lavs, and external line or mic feeds). PS: If you go with audio recorders, do yourself a favor and don't skimp (ie iRivers), as they wil come back and bite you in the a** eventually. And remember, get the equipment that best suits your working style, not someone else's. As there is NO perfect recorder. There are expensive and inexpensive ones that can suit your needs. Just choose wisely for what's best for you in the long run (think the long haul not just for now) not short term.

Because for a live event, you get no second takes.
If you miss it or mess up the audio, your screwed. Audio is such an important part of video (in my opinion even more important than the actual video content). The reason being that video is easier to fix in post than audio is. A bad video with great audio will be perceived as good video. Good video with poor audio will be perceived as poor video. People just don't consciously perceive what they hear, in which is translated to their subconscious, visually. Sounds strange but true. What good is it for the bride and groom to see their video, but not be able to hear the vows.

This is what separates the professionals from the Uncle Charlie's of the world.

With the Zoom, I put the Gain on low - and I don't get much distortion - so for speeches and such, it's fine.It does, "ok". That's as far as I'll go. That low setting will "muffle" the sound a bit so I always add just small dash of treble in post.

The recording I get from the Senn e604 drum mic is still 10x better.

It does, "ok". That's as far as I'll go. That low setting will "muffle" the sound a bit so I always add just small dash of treble in post.

The recording I get from the Senn e604 drum mic is still 10x better.

I've been hearing alot about the e604. Can you connect it to the H2 or an iriver?

Tapping a DJ board is not very difficult and really is the best sounding solution. If you try to mic his speakers you'll be stuck with the whatever quality his speakers were. The RCA record outs of a DJ board are tied directly to his master. If there is sound coming out of his speakers, you can get it at the record out. One RCA to 1/4 cable into a line matching transformer (radio shack 274-017) attached to a sennheiser plug on transmitter and you're done. Takes about 20 seconds. Set the sennheiser to -20 sesitivity. About 95% of dj boards are the same but you will run into some where a certain microphone channel isn't sent to the record outs so make sure he tests his mic for you after you hook it up.

Well - here's what I did.

I had four different audio sources going on throughout the ceremony. An H2 on a mic stand in front of the PA, along with a wireless lav to my camera going into the left channel. I had a Videomic going into the right. Also, I had an iriver on the groom. It was an outdoor ceremony and it was very windy (on top of a hill at a winery). H2 and the iriver on the groom gave me the best results.

Had the same setup during the reception (minus the iriver). I had the mic stand in front of the PA - and the DJ did give me a look - and I felt he was a little annoyed. What can you do.

During the first dance, we had to move to a different dance floor so he moved the speaker away from the Mic Stand, but did not move the Mic Stand.

When I had the opportunity, I moved the Mic Stand. During the slideshow, everyone moved to the dance floor and someone bumped into mic stand and my Zoom H2 fell out and hit the ground. When I checked it, all of my reception audio was missing. The file was there, but I cannot play it at all.

Still I had backup from the lav and the Videomic, so I at least have something.

I agree that nothing takes the place of taping directly into the DJ's audio board. Of course you would want another channel of ambient sound to mix in.
I have been doing it over twenty years without any problems. All it takes is an understanding of the the audio leaving the board and your camera's capacity to receive it and a little knowledge of the typical sound board. With that little knowledge of the sound board you will probably be one up on the DJ.

The audio (pressure) leaving the sound board /mixer is to hot for your camera to handle. This has nothing to do with the volume.
The solution is to reduce the audio out db to a level that the camera microphone inputs can handle. An attenuater that knocks the level down twenty to fifty db will do the trick. There are several devices thet will do the trick from black boxes to mixers to a simple audio line.

The next step is to figure out where to plug into the DJ's mixer. Standing in the rear of the mixer, facing the DJ, you will almost always find the audio outputs on your left. The exceptions are generally large venue mixers such as a 32 or 48 input board found in live performance venues or churches. Then the outputs may be in the center or left side.
Look for a line level output. The RCA audio outputs for recording to tape recorders are the perfect match. The signal goes right through so the DJ cannot tamper with your signal.

That line must be attenuated (db's knocked down) before it gets to your camera.

Some of the larger DJ boards may have an auxiliary output (1/4" / phono plug). This output may have a separate volume output controlled by the DJ. Once it's set, your volume input won't change. You stilll have to use the attenuator.

When the DJ is hooking up, you have to make sure he is hooking up your line to his output and not input (the right side of the board with the sliders).
Believe it or not, there are a lot of DJ's out there who don't seem to know the difference on their own boards. That's where your newly aquired expertice comes into play.

As far as DJ's being cooperative, I let by brides' hear the difference, offer Direct Sound as an option and they let the DJ know that this is what THEY want for their wedding. Works all the time.

It's becoming common enough now that some DJs already have a line pre attached to the board to make the hook up easier.
Allen W

Interesting thread this.

I rely on the two internal mics of the cameras and a direct feed into an Iriver from the DJs board. However, I find the Iriver recording usefull 70% of the time becuase either a) the DJ \ I plugged it in wrong, b) set the record level too high or low.

I'm interested in the H2. Can you really put it a few inches away from a speaker and get good audio when the DJ cranks it up??? I thought it would explode the thing!

Hi everyone -

I'm hoping to get some ideas here. I have a Zoom H2 and two irivers with some GS lav mics.

I got the ceremony audio covered, but I'm not happy with the audio I'm capturing at the reception (specifically, the music).

I generally have the Zoom on top of the PA speaker - with a lav mic dangling in front of the tweeter. Speeches are coming out fine. However, I want to avoid patching into the DJ's board, because I'd like to have more control with the audio.

Is dangling the lav a good idea? Or is there something better? Do I need a better mic (I assume I do).



What do you guys do.

Thanks!

If you want more control over the audio, then hire a sound tech to manage each channel of the audio before the DJ gets it. My personal choice is to tap into the DJ's board, but ONLY THROUGH THE RECORD OUT or TAPE OUT RCA connection. This feed is independent of the master feed in that it is a stable audio signal, and gives you quite a lot of control. Once your recording device is set properly for a constant 10K audio feed it never has to be reset. You can even set this level on your home stereo. Granted, if the DJ does something stupid and overloads a channel, you will get a distorted signal. Regardless, the Record out feed remains stable. You will get a good audio for most of what you need.

You could get something similar hanging a mic in front of a loud speaker, provided you use a microphone designed to handle sound pressure levels in excess of 120 db. a Shure SM57 will do this. So will most pro quality drum mics. These I know to be reliable. Other mics, as already recommended, could work, but I don't have experience with then. But why go to that extraordinary effort? The Record out feed is very reliable.

There a lots of ways to resolve your issue. I've mentioned two. The trick is to find the method that works best for you. So take all of our opinions and find the one that best fits your workflow.

Having said this, some kind of good backup is essential.

if you are adept enough to run a camera beyond a point and shoot, you should have no problem figuring out the average dj board!

99% will have a "record" output. 1/3 or so of those will have a switch that either selects audio with or audio without the mic.

if they are using the record out, some consoles have a booth or zone out. the booth &/or extra zone will have its own level potentiometer. you have to pot this up, just connecting a recording device to these probably won't cut it. again, you may or may not find a mic yay or nay switch.

bring adapters! when i dj'ed i brought all sorts of adapters with my rig. if i had to macguyver something on the fly, no problem. not all dj's have the gift of forsight, have ever contemplated equipment failure or care enough to come properly prepared. carry some adaters with your recording rig. rca, 1/4" & xlr are all common place in dj gear, but if you show up to the gig and all you have is rca and all the dj has left is xlr, you're probably SOL. if your recording device isn't battery operated, a power splitter and extension cord would round out this prep pack nicely. the dj's "power distro" may very well be full and again, you're SOL.

check the levels even if you have a limiter on your recording device. as the party gets going, so does the volume. your perfect audio signal during dinner probably won't be so perfect after everyone is good and lit. a limiter won't fix a signal thats distorted at the output stage of the dj mixer. basically, make sure you aren't in the red whenever you hear the electric slide.

if none of this makes sense. go to your local dj supply store, or study one online. same stuff as video; inputs and outputs, watch levels, be prepared.

my $0.02
-john c.

I will be doing a wedding next month and want to record the DJs music from the speakers - it seems to be the easiest. I went to my local guitar center and while I was inquiring about the Sennheiser e604 he showed me the e609. It is made for micing guitar amps and is only about $100.
Would this suffice or should I just pony up the cash and get the e604?

Thanks
Jim

Would this suffice or should I just pony up the cash and get the e604?Get the e604. Unlike a guitar, it's designed to handle high compression like drums.

Rick,
Thanks. I was also considering using the tape out from the mixer - if available - directly to inputs 1 & 2 on the Zoom H4. I am assuming the tape out is line level and I want to get it to mic level. What do I need to convert the tape out to a mic level input?

Thanks
Jim

What do I need to convert the tape out to a mic level input? JimThe sound board should have an independant volume knob/slider for this. And you said earlier you had an H2. Now you're referring to an H4... which is it?

Lots of luck dealing with this though. I haven't found 2 boards that work the same and the DJ's wireless mic (speeches) may not even work on the master out.

I never use the board anymore - too hit and miss. The e604 is my main feed and the H2 is just a backup.

Nope, I never had an H2 - that was the original poster.
I just got my H4 a few days ago.

So, I will go with connecting the e604 to the H4 and putting both on a mic stand in front of the speaker.

Thanks for the help.
Jim

All the reviews I've read on the H2 says the external mic amp on the H2 is very bad.. and the samples confirms this.

How are you guys finding the H2's audio quality for wedding vids?

Jim,
I use the 604 and it works like a charm. I also use a SE300/ck93 hyper for on camera and the 2 mix like butter. The 604 is the way to go.

Don

How are you guys finding the H2's audio quality for wedding vids?It really sucks mic'ing a PA stack in my opinion but the thing does a pretty good job with a quartet and/or soloist if you position it correctly.

Using it to record a speaker gets mixed results for me. Cranking the gain way down takes a lot of the high frequencies out of the sound and it sounds muffled. But it has saved my arse a few times when my e604/wireless wasn't on (Oops).

Nope, I never had an H2 - that was the original poster.
I just got my H4 a few days ago.

So, I will go with connecting the e604 to the H4 and putting both on a mic stand in front of the speaker.

Thanks for the help.
JimSorry about confusing you with the original poster.

I'm not sure about the H4 but the H2 has some handy LED's on each side of it that flash if the sound is "clipping". Watch those things if you have them. Just like a sound board, every DJ has different speakers and amps and the ones I work with ride the volume all night long going form low (social hour) to deafening (late dancing).

And be careful not to mount the e604 directly in front of the bass... put it mostly over the tweeter. 8-12 inches away works for me if I have the room.

Hi All,

I am looking at purchasing the new Audio Technica 1800 wireless system, it is a dual reciever in camera mount form with lav transmitter and plug in transmitter.

The plug in can take a HiZ input at a 0dbu level but one of my mates is an audio tech and reckons most desks (well pro ones he said) output +4dbu so i would have problems with the level being too hot simply running a line into the plugin transmitter.

Any suggestions? I think this would be a great way o do it cause i could then have straight away sync sound to my camera and the room sound from my camera mounted RODE NTG2. In the past i took a tap into a MiniDisc recorder which worked pretty well but I didn't like not being able to monitor it and being able to check i was getting something good.

I use the system (AT1800) and for certain work when I DO plugin to the board, if needed, I pad it down-I have a couple of different attenuators that will give me up to about -40 plus the -6 on the transmitter and another -20 on the camera if needed and for those times I do pull a direct feed it works out just fine.
You friend is right. -6 isn't enough so get some pads or a converter LtoM an you should be fine.
Don

This thread has really peaked my interest in trying a Senn e604 to capture reception audio (thanks Don Bloom and Rick Steele). My question is, can you use a Senn SKP100G2 plug-in transmitter with the e604? The SKP100G2 doesn't have phantom power; does the e604 need this?

Thanks for any help.

Kevin

the e604 is a dynamic mic and I used it with an Azden plugin and for a long time an Audio Technic series 1800 plugin so the short answer is no you don't need phantom.

Don

My question is, can you use a Senn SKP100G2 plug-in transmitter with the e604?
Yes, this is the same butt plug I normally use - nothing else is required - just plug it into the e604 and go. I've also used the bodypack version of this transmitter along with an XLR to 1/4" mini jack cable... this works fine too.